The affect of stress and lack of sleep on health of people in medicine?

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studentxx8800

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The research on how much poor/lack of sleep + stress can affect the body and increase your risk of multiple types of diseases (dementia, cancer, metabolic syndrome, etc) are vast and well supported. Today, this thought hit me hard when I thought back about how many of my friends in med school have become overweight with a beer gut, getting into the territory of anorexia, or worsening health status. I can only imagine how much residency can negatively affect your health and appearance. Is this an isolated experience on my part? Any of you guys noticing the same thing at your school? The guys at my school display the this more so than the girl (not by much though) at my school. Most of the resident that I worked with look terrible most of the time especially the surgery-oriented specialty ones

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i think this is pretty universal. Ive never seen a good looking neurosurgery resident (edit: resident who didn't look beat down)
 
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i think this is pretty universal. Ive never seen a good looking neurosurgery resident
Most of the one's i see are just fine, except for the bags under their eyes from the sleep deprivation.
 
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Most of the one's i see are just fine, except for the bags under their eyes from the sleep deprivation.

True. I should adjust my statement. "i havent seen any that were in good shape"
 
True. I should adjust my statement. "i havent seen any that were in good shape"
i havent seen many residents that were in good shape. Maybe some FP ones .

The derm department and plastics department at my school seems to only recruit models tho.
 
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Idk I feel like I know a lot of residents who are in pretty good shape. I think it’s more an individual thing. If it’s something you want to prioritize, you’ll be able to. If you’d rather focus on other things, that’s fine too.
 
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Idk I feel like I know a lot of residents who are in pretty good shape. I think it’s more an individual thing. If it’s something you want to prioritize, you’ll be able to. If you’d rather focus on other things, that’s fine too.
You can be fit and sleep deprived.
 
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Depends on the residency. Derm residency can be really easy, same with RadOnc and many others. Obvs anything surgical is long hours, though.

Also, I wouldn't group stress with low sleep in terms of health issues. Lots of new studies are showing it isn't necessarily stress that's bad, but rather how you view stress and manage it. There is a book on it called "The Upside of Stress," it's a very good read. Basically, if you can manage your stress well and have an optimistic view on life, you live just as long if not longer.
most of the literature on this question indicated that increased levels of stress negatively correlated with many outcomes including CAD, elevated levels of cortisol have been tied to weight gain, diabetes and sleep deprivation exacerbates this.
Optimistic view of life may be protective to some degree but it still is not going offset physiology.

I would take anything a psychologist says with a large grain of salt since psychology has had a difficult time with reproducibility since a lot of their studies are poorly designed and controlled for. She wants to sell books by being controversial or edgy or going beyond what the actual studies indicate.
 
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most of the literature on this question indicated that increased levels of stress negatively correlated with many outcomes including CAD, elevated levels of cortisol have been tied to weight gain, diabetes and sleep deprivation exacerbates this.
Optimistic view of life may be protective to some degree but it still is not going offset physiology.

I would take anything a psychologist says with a large grain of salt since psychology has had a difficult time with reproducibility since a lot of their studies are poorly designed and controlled for. She wants to sell books by being controversial or edgy or going beyond what the actual studies indicate.

Why We Sleep is a really good primer about sleep. Basically, sleep deprivation does have long term health impacts, a causative role in Alzheimers, and a whole bunch of other deleterious effects. The good news is that making sleep a priority when you can (IE, once you're an attending), can actually help to alleviate a bunch of these problems.
 
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Why We Sleep is a really good primer about sleep. Basically, sleep deprivation does have long term health impacts, a causative role in Alzheimers, and a whole bunch of other deleterious effects. The good news is that making sleep a priority when you can (IE, once you're an attending), can actually help to alleviate a bunch of these problems.
Assuming 4-5 years of sleep deprivation isn't enough to do some pretty serious damage. I wouldn't take that bet.
 
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Assuming 4-5 years of sleep deprivation isn't enough to do some pretty serious damage. I wouldn't take that bet.

It definitely is, but it's also damage that can be remediated for the most part. Although some bad news for older med students - apparently, your 30s (and your 60s) are critical periods where sleep deprivation is more likely to lead to Alzheimers.
 
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Not arguing with sleep deprivation. Sleep is extremely important. Stress is being overturned, however. How much stress you’re under does not affect health. It’s how you MANAGE it.
No.
Here is an excerpt from a peer reviewed article not some book published by a psychologist.


Heart and stress system


Psychosocial factors as independent risk factors for cardiac diseases
Chronic stressors such as negative psychosocial factors represent modifiable risk factors that could be linked to adverse cardiac prognosis and the mortality rate worldwide. The international INTERHEART case control study proved that psychosocial factors were significantly related to acute myocardial infarction, with an odds ratio (OD) of 2.67 (58).
Social inequalities and behavioral factors as determinants of CV morbidity and mortality were also investigated by M. Marmot and colleagues (59) in a cohort of British civil servants who worked in the late 1960s (the Whitehall I study) and in 1985–88 (the Whitehall II study). The results from these long-term prospective studies, initially considered platforms for studying age-related diseases, for the first time linked lower socioeconomic status (SES) and lower employment grade with a higher incidence of metabolic syndrome stigmata and a higher coronary mortality rate among male employers. Other combined variables associated with increased risk of CVD mortality were high-strain work (low control and high demands) and low social support. In the same cohort, the presence of financial difficulties in lower employment grades was a risk factor for weight gain and metabolic alterations, in particular in female workers. Findings derived from these large cohort studies clearly show the direct correlation between social conditions and metabolic disturbances, coronary disease onset and the mortality rate (60).
Further meta-analyses of prospective observational studies found that certain psychosocial factors, such as social isolation and loneliness, were associated with a 50% increased risk of CVD; work-related stress showed similar results, with a 40% risk of new CV events (61).
Experimental data confirmed that adverse early life events, including social deprivation and discrimination during childhood and adolescence, predispose an individual toward the development of CVD in adulthood through diverse epigenetic signatures of key regulatory genes involved in the stress response, immune function, inflammation and metabolism (62).
However, the lack of statistical power in recent metanalyses does not allow identification of the type of occupational psychosocial factors that can be considered independent risk factors for major cardiac events (63).
Emotions and cardiovascular disease
As emerged by large observational studies, people with severe mental diseases (i.e., schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depressive disorder) have an increased risk of developing CHD compared with controls, with pooled hazard ratio of 1.54, according to recent meta-analytic results (64), showing a consistent increase in cardiovascular morbidity and mortality.
In 2014, the American Heart Association pointed out the close relationship between high depressive symptoms and poor prognosis after acute myocardial infarction; in a published scientific statement, depression was elevated as an “independent primary risk factor in patients with acute coronary syndrome” (65, 66). In fact, the incidence of coronary heart disease was measured at a relative risk of 1.90 in the presence of diagnosed depression (67, 68).
Racial disparities have been considered in many prospective studies, recognizing race-dependent risk factors for blacks, but not whites, in developing cardiac disease. In the REGARDS study, black individuals with depressive symptoms presented a greater risk of CHD diagnosis or revascularization at follow-up (69). In the 10 years of follow-up in the Jackson Heart prospective study, the presence of depressive symptoms was positively correlated with the risk of incident stroke. However, coping strategies observed in some individuals of the cohort may mitigate the increased CHD risk associated with depressive symptoms (70).
Anxiety is commonly diagnosed together with depressive disorder. Therefore, it is not surprising that there are few studies focusing only on anxiety disturbance and the incidence of cardiovascular disease. In a 2010 meta-analysis by Roest and colleagues, a high anxiety score was a recognized risk factor linked to coronaropathy, although the analysis was not adjusted for depression, a common comorbid disease (71). In a cohort of thousands of young Swedish military men, those who were diagnosed with anxiety were more likely to experience coronary heart disease and myocardial infarction (72). Seven years of follow-up in Finnish longitudinal study conducted on healthy people reported an association between anxiety and elevated risk of CHD in women only (73).
The link between posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and incident fatal and non-fatal CVD events is well established. Diagnosis of PTSD was found to be an established risk factor for acute coronary events in the general population in multiple prospective cohort studies (74) and in subgroup population studies involving veterans (75) and women (76).
Positive thoughts and emotions, as well as social cohesion, enhance resilience and influence health trajectories in cardiovascular diseases. In the Health and Retirement Study, optimism appeared to protect against incident heart failure after a cardiac event (77).
Ethnic differences in positive behavioral responses emerged in the Eastern Collaborative Group prospective study, in which the Japanese attitude called “Spirit of Wa,” integrating a sense of community, collaboration and hierarchical social organization, was a protective factor against further cardiac events in Japanese men undergoing coronary angiogram for CAD (78). Assessment of baseline coping strategies in another cohort of hypertensive middle-aged Japanese subjects without a history of CVD demonstrated that individuals who presented an approach-oriented coping strategy were more likely to have reduced incidence of stroke and CVD mortality, while an avoidance-oriented behavior was associated with higher CVD incidence and mortality (79).
In western countries, evidence has shown similar results. Adults in the United States without cardiovascular disease who perceived higher neighbourhood social cohesion presented a reduced likelihood of incident myocardial infarction over 4 years (80).
Stress and neuroendocrine patterns in cardiovascular disease
Stress in mammals is responsible for complex psycho-neuro-immuno-endocrine responses that primarily involves both the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis and the autonomic nervous system (ANS), first described by the two founders of stress science, Walter Bradford Cannon and Hans Selye, in the 1930s (81, 82).
Highly conserved in all vertebrates, including humans, the ANS and HPA systems represent the neuronal and hormonal limbs of the stress response, respectively, and provide both short- and long-term changes in behavior, cardiovascular functions, endocrine and metabolic signals, as well as in host defense and immune responses, enabling the individual classically “to fight or flee” and initiate different coping strategies against stressors of different origins, from physical injuries to psychosocial tasks, in order to successfully adaptation (allostasis). The HPA axis, starting from the hypothalamic paraventricular nucleus, secretes corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) that regulates the release of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) from the pituitary gland. Cortisol is the main active hormone released from the adrenal gland in response to ACTH in humans, exerting negative feedback control on hypothalamic CRF and pituitary ACTH secretion (83).
As observed in clinical studies with adults and adolescents, altered HPA axis function may have negative effects on the cardiovascular system, leading to atherosclerotic plaque formation, high blood pressure, insulin resistance, dyslipidaemia, and central adiposity. Biomolecular studies confirm that these stigmata correlate with elevated inflammatory markers and endothelial activation with a hypercoagulable state and increased risk of thrombotic events (84).
A growing body of evidence has demonstrated a close relationship between high levels of cortisol and increased risk of ischaemic heart disease and cardiovascular mortality (85, 86).
Chronic psychological stress is associated with the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis, and serum cortisol might be a reference marker for this disease. Huo et al., showed that serum cortisol levels were higher in the patients with atherosclerosis than in healthy controls, and high plasma cortisol concentrations negatively correlated with circulating immuno-regulatory IL-10, promoting plaque destabilization (87). Chronic job-related stress leads to metabolic syndrome. Workers suffering from burnout showed dysregulation of the sympathetic vagal balance, with reduced parasympathetic activity, predominance of sympathetic activity, and hyporeactivity of the HPA axis, mainly in males (88).
Results from the Whitehall II study showed that male workers with metabolic syndrome at lower job positions had higher levels of norepinephrine, cortisol and serum IL-6 and manifested a higher heart rate at rest and lower heart rate variability (89).
As a systemic disease, obesity itself contributes to the risk for CVD through elevations in basal levels of cortisol, inflammatory cytokines and hormones such as leptin and insulin. In an exiguous group of obese college-aged males, Caslin and colleagues showed that an acute mental stress task elicited a vigorous stress reaction, with an increase in heart rate and catecholamine release (epinephrine and norepinephrine), increased immune response with inflammatory cytokine synthesis (TNF-α, IL-1 and IL-6) and hormonal changes with a significant reduction in leptin concentrations, without a significant increase in serum cortisol at an early post-task observation time point (90).
 
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Try a more recent study. This is extremely outdated. Sorry buddy.
Front Immunol. 2018; 9: 2031.
Published online 2018 Sep 6. doi: 10.3389/fimmu.2018.02031
PMCID: PMC6135895
PMID: 30237802
Stress and Inflammation in Coronary Artery Disease: A Review Psychoneuroendocrineimmunology-Based

LOL. Get a grip dude, that book sold you a bunch of lies. Why dont you post some peer reviewed articles prooving what ever that book is claiming.
 
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First, the book cites several very recent peer reviewed studies. It's in book form because that's what the layperson reads. You're welcome to find the studies and look over them yourself.
Second, the paper you cited literally says "may."
Thirdly, the study YOUR paper cited was done in 2010. The paper may be written in 2019, but the cited study is old and outdated.

You'd think a medical student would know these things...
Dude you are claiming that a book written by a psychologist has more bearing than basic science research. You are the one who needs to cite the sources that book uses.
Scientific studies use may when there are correlations exist, looking at the OR tells you how strong the effect size is.
Please enlighten us with how this magical book overturned 100 years of thinking on this question with evidence. Cite the peer reviewed papers.
Here is a good counterpoint to whatever nonsense that book shoveled. If you are going to be in medicine try to discern how to parse bull**** (books form psychologists) from reality.


OMG wtf is this amatuer hour, I feel like i am talking to someone who has never read a scientific paper or knows how to parse the validity of sources. Self help books published by psychologists do not have any bearing on anything.
 
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While this study is unable to investigate the biological processes responsible for the findings in this study, allostasis – the process of achieving homeostasis through adjustments to the biological system in response to stress (McEwen, 1998) – may be one potential mechanism. Although protective in the short term, increased levels of hormonal mediators associated with the human stress response can be deleterious to the individual if repeated or prolonged (Lantz et al., 2005; McEwen & Seeman, 1999). Moreover, increased allostatic load has been associated with worse physical and cognitive function and an increased risk of mortality (Seeman, McEwen, Rowe, & Singer, 2001). Individuals who report a lot of stress and the perception that stress affects their health may be experiencing the negative health consequences of increased allostatic load, where the individual’s stress response system has been taxed to the point of inciting negative physiological and psychological responses.

Although this study did not find any significant relationship between attempts at reducing the amount of stress and the psychological distress and mortality outcomes, it did find that the association between attempting to reduce the amount of stress experienced and the likelihood of reporting being in poor physical health to be of borderline significance. The lack of significant evidence of a clear relationship between attempts at stress reduction and health outcomes could be due to selection issues, as it is possible that adults who attempt to reduce the amount of stress they experience may be different than those who do not. Further experimental research is needed to understand the relationship between attempts at stress reduction and health outcomes.

Literally from the study you placed. Just because people who perceive stress have increased mortality compared to those in stress alone. Doesnt mean that people who are experiencing stress alone have a reduced mortality compared to non stressed people. Furthermore it says that efforts to reduce stress have had no impact on outcomes.



274943

This study literally leaves out a correlation between stress and percieved stress. Duh if you have more stress you are more likely to percieve that it impacts your health. This study also fails to stats that reducing stress would decrease mortality from stress related increases.


Not a single one of these studies indicates that decreasing percieved stress would decrease mortality related to stress. it took like three minutes to figure this out. That scientific american review of that book is spot on in terms of trash it is spewing .
 
"
Can managing stress reduce or prevent heart disease?
Managing stress is a good idea for your overall health. A few studies have examined how well treatment or therapies work in reducing the effects of stress on cardiovascular disease. Studies using psychosocial therapies – involving both psychological and social aspects – are promising in the prevention of second heart attacks. After a heart attack or stroke, people who feel depressed, anxious or overwhelmed by stress should talk to their doctor or other healthcare professionals.

What can you do about stress?
Exercising, maintaining a positive attitude, not smoking, not drinking too much coffee, enjoying a healthy diet and maintaining a healthy weight are good ways to deal with stress, said Schiffrin, who is also the Canada research chair in hypertension and vascular research at Lady Davis Institute for Medical Research. “All those people are doing the right thing,” said Schiffrin, a volunteer with the American Heart Association.
"

- AMA


The way you manage stress determines how much it affects you.
does not make stress positive. You are still going to have negative effects. Literally none of the studies you linked point towards management of stress reducing morbidity associated with it. This "article" literally says maintain a healthy weight and eat a healthy diet. lol that decreased chd mortality but not through the stress mechanism. And getting medications to manage stress is a lot different that altered perception of stress. Which you have been claiming which none of the articles you linked point towards.
 
Depends on the residency. Derm residency can be really easy, same with RadOnc and many others. Obvs anything surgical is long hours, though.

Also, I wouldn't group stress with low sleep in terms of health issues. Lots of new studies are showing it isn't necessarily stress that's bad, but rather how you view stress and manage it. There is a book on it called "The Upside of Stress," it's a very good read. Basically, if you can manage your stress well and have an optimistic view on life, you live just as long if not longer.

Good rule of thumb: If the science is being presented in a book for the layman, its probably incorrect.
 
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Act to manage stress

If you have stress symptoms, taking steps to manage your stress can have many health benefits. Explore stress management strategies, such as:

  • Getting regular physical activity
  • Practicing relaxation techniques, such as deep breathing, meditation, yoga, tai chi or massage
  • Keeping a sense of humor
  • Spending time with family and friends
  • Setting aside time for hobbies, such as reading a book or listening to music

Aim to find active ways to manage your stress. Inactive ways to manage stress — such as watching television, surfing the internet or playing video games — may seem relaxing, but they may increase your stress over the long term.

And be sure to get plenty of sleep and eat a healthy, balanced diet. Avoid tobacco use, excess caffeine and alcohol, and the use of illegal substances."
dude now you are just copying and pasting web articles. lol

You claimed that perception of stress is more important than experiencing stress itself. And that there are positives for the stress itself.
1. The articles you linked stated that there is a correlation between perception of stress and that there is correlation between stress and perception of stress. Duh.
2. The articles you linked all state that stress and perception of stress independently were enough to increase morbidity related to stress.
3. The articles do not provide any evidence that reduction in perception of stress actually decreases morbidity related to stress.

Correlation is not causation. Just because people who percieve stress more are more likely to experience chd related to stress does not mean that reducing of perception of stress would actually improve outcomes, all of the articles you linked state that. Furthermore there are a plethora of other plausible causes of this correlation listed in the same articles like people who are sick can look to be more concerned about the impact of stress on their health. Or you know people who experience more stress are more likely to percieve stress negatively impacting their health.


Lastly these web articles are all aimed at reducing CHD risk, diet, smoking and other things that they are trying to help reduce are all independent risk factors for CHD. This does not mean they will magically reduce the stress related risk factors.

Stop parroting junk science from psychologists, its not a good look for anyone especially someone who is in or wants to be in the healthcare or medical science field.
 
"
The health benefits of positive thinking

Researchers continue to explore the effects of positive thinking and optimism on health. Health benefits that positive thinking may provide include:

  • Increased life span
  • Lower rates of depression
  • Lower levels of distress
  • Greater resistance to the common cold
  • Better psychological and physical well-being
  • Better cardiovascular health and reduced risk of death from cardiovascular disease
  • Better coping skills during hardships and times of stress

It's unclear why people who engage in positive thinking experience these health benefits. One theory is that having a positive outlook enables you to cope better with stressful situations, which reduces the harmful health effects of stress on your body.

It's also thought that positive and optimistic people tend to live healthier lifestyles — they get more physical activity, follow a healthier diet, and don't smoke or drink alcohol in excess."


If positive thinking reduces stress, then positive thinking reduces the negative effects of stress.
that is not a peer reviewed article . that is literally we think this may help cuz we dont have anything else to offer you. You have literally not answered any of the points I brought up about the articles you cited.

we are discussing science , not advice to lay people.
 
Regardless, the sheer fact is that if you enjoy medical school and residency and take efforts to manage your stress, your life will be just as long and fulfilling as a normal person's because you'll have less stress and therefore less negative effects.
lol. NOTHING in the literature says that. Stop spouting made up stuff. You must be a pre-med because if a med student said stuff like this , there would be bigger questions I would have to competency of that person.
 
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Literally everything I've sent says that. Sorry you can't read.
You have not answered a single point i have made to the articles you linked . heck i literally qouted the articles you linked. I am worried about your CARS score.
A source like the Mayo Clinic is not going to print articles that are inaccurate.
You are having a difficult time understanding the difference between evidence based lifestyle modifications and theoretical lifestyle modifications that may have an effect or may not, or risk reduction by modifying other risk factors. Articles for the lay people are not scientific journals or for scientific debate.
 
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While the pretest–posttest design is the least costly and simplest to conduct, this design is unable to minimize threats to internal validity such as maturation and history due to the lack of a control group for comparison. Without having a control group, the findings from these studies must be interpreted with caution. Future studies should use the more robust randomized control design or, when it is not feasible, the group randomized control design.

The second and third questions this review examined were, “Is there sufficient data available to draw conclusions regarding the efficacy of mindfulness-based stress reduction in stress management?” and “What are the methodological limitations of present research studies and how can these be addressed in future research?” The review looked at 17 studies of which 5 were randomized controlled designs. Based on these studies, some conclusions can be made but one would need to consider the limitations.

Besides the design type, several other limitations need to be kept in mind while interpreting the efficacy of mindfulness-based stress reduction in stress management. The majority of included studies were of lower quality. This could result in potential unobserved biases that reduce the significance of examined findings. The main methodological shortcomings were small sample size, self-selection, nonrandomization, and the impracticality of conducting meditation studies under a double-blind condition. However, all the reviewed studies provided significant results in the same direction, emphasizing the nonspecific and potentially specific effect of mindfulness-based stress reduction for stress reduction.

A second limitation is the administration of self-rated scales, which could be influenced by social desirability. A third limitation was that people in all studies were most often Caucasian females, thus limiting the generalizability to minority populations, and enhancing the necessity of further research in more diverse populations samples. An important final limitation is the differing durations of the studies and partially differing study designs, which could influence final values. Nonetheless, apart from the modified version for the online participants, and the shortened program for nurses/midwives and undergraduate students, mindfulness-based stress reduction techniques, programs, and lessons with home practice duration were not significantly different across the studies.

The sample sizes have generally been small with only 3 studies having sample size more than 155. Power calculations and sample size justifications are generally missing from most of the reviewed studies. There have been no large-scale, longitudinal studies that have been conducted with this research problem. Future research should look at the possibility of conducting large-scale, longitudinal studies. If the customary mindfulness-based stress reduction program is going to be modified for shorter duration interventions, a standardized shortened version should be developed.

The final question that this review aimed at answering was, “What are the common outcome measures measured by studies and which ones are more important for future studies?” Both psychological and physiological measures were used by the studies though psychological measures were more common and were used by all studies. The most common outcome measure was the score on a perceived stress scale, which was used by 7 studies and was measured mainly by Cohen’s perceived stress scale.34 Cohen’s perceived stress scale is under public domain and is certainly a useful measure to use in studies examining mindfulness-based stress reduction and stress. The Self-Compassion Scale is also a useful measure for examining mindfulness, which is one of the main tenants of self-compassion. The common physiological measures that can be used by future studies are heart rate (and its variability), blood pressure, and, if possible, salivary cortisol.

1. This systematic review states it cant draw any long term reduction in stress.
2. They did not measure stress reduction in physiological ways as in reduction of cortisol.
3. They had very small sample sizes.
4. Were only done in women who in fact do not face as much morbidity in terms of CHD compared to men related to stress since estrogen is protective.
5. the duration of the intervention and measurement of outcomes was short, and patients may revert back to baseline in long term trials.
6. Zero placebo or alternative interventions.

comeon dude this is weak sauce. no wonder psychology has trouble recreating its studies they are all bs.
 
"
Relaxation response. Dr. Herbert Benson, director emeritus of the Benson-Henry Institute for Mind Body Medicine at Massachusetts General Hospital, has devoted much of his career to learning how people can counter the stress response by using a combination of approaches that elicit the relaxation response. These include deep abdominal breathing, focus on a soothing word (such as peace or calm), visualization of tranquil scenes, repetitive prayer, yoga, and tai chi.

Most of the research using objective measures to evaluate how effective the relaxation response is at countering chronic stress have been conducted in people with hypertension and other forms of heart disease. Those results suggest the technique may be worth trying — although for most people it is not a cure-all. For example, researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital conducted a double-blind, randomized controlled trial of 122 patients with hypertension, ages 55 and older, in which half were assigned to relaxation response training and the other half to a control group that received information about blood pressure control. After eight weeks, 34 of the people who practiced the relaxation response — a little more than half — had achieved a systolic blood pressure reduction of more than 5 mm Hg, and were therefore eligible for the next phase of the study, in which they could reduce levels of blood pressure medication they were taking. During that second phase, 50% were able to eliminate at least one blood pressure medication — significantly more than in the control group, where only 19% eliminated their medication."
That says nothing about the cortisol related response to stress.
Here is some advice feel free to ignore it .
1. Never trust anything written in a book by a psychologist unless you actually read the literature they are citing, their entire field is riddled with research fraud, lack of reproducibility, badly designed studies, and playing loose with evidence.
2. Learn how to critically read literature, actual literature. It is a skill that is gained but will pay dividends.
3. When debating someone you are supposed to actually make counterpoints to things they bring up, and not just ignore them . Ignoring them means you acknowledge that the points that were made were correct.
4. Keep an open mind. its ok to be wrong, you learn something. I am open to being wrong on this question but nothing you have linked remotely states that stress is good for people or that stress reduction effectively lowers long term Cardiac disease related mortality. If you did i would change my mind.
5. books are meant to sell, they are meant to be controversial, or self helpy and make people feel good or give them the impression that they have control or what ever other narrative they are pushing. They have an incentive to be loose with evidence.
 
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If doctors are under so much stress, wouldn't they on average die quicker? Keep in mind this was BEFORE the residency hour restriction, so they were even more stressed. They should, but they don't... because they're good at stress management. Sure, there is NO proof of causation, but there IS the data.
Doctors are of a higher SES which may offset a large amount of morbidity realted to stress but still does not eliminate it. Also according to that doctors die more often of suicide compared to the national average.

since we are just throwing random studies up in the air.
This literally says that residency training stress ages you.
 
My argument is simply that there are ways to reduce stress (exercise), and if stress is reduced then the effects of stress are also reduced. You have yet to present a study that disproves that simple logic.
because you have changed your argument from
Depends on the residency. Derm residency can be really easy, same with RadOnc and many others. Obvs anything surgical is long hours, though.

Also, I wouldn't group stress with low sleep in terms of health issues. Lots of new studies are showing it isn't necessarily stress that's bad, but rather how you view stress and manage it. There is a book on it called "The Upside of Stress," it's a very good read. Basically, if you can manage your stress well and have an optimistic view on life, you live just as long if not longer.

which you were completely wrong on.

you have now moved the goal post to:

to now reducing stress reduces the effects of stress.
the studies you qouted literally said that attempts at reducing stress did not reduce morbidity.
 
My studies did not say reducing stress did not reduce morbidity. They said perception of stress did not.

Although this study did not find any significant relationship between attempts at reducing the amount of stress and the psychological distress and mortality outcomes, it did find that the association between attempting to reduce the amount of stress experienced and the likelihood of reporting being in poor physical health to be of borderline significance. The lack of significant evidence of a clear relationship between attempts at stress reduction and health outcomes could be due to selection issues, as it is possible that adults who attempt to reduce the amount of stress they experience may be different than those who do not
 
Not having enough sleep during residency was terrible. Residency life is generally not conducive to maintaining wellness and health. Things do get better after training though.
What specialty did you do? And what do you mean by not enough sleep ( like how much would you say is enough?). I have one relative who during IM residency got about 7 hrs a night average. I've heard plenty of stories that say 7 + hrs average is manageable if you don't have children or any other huge obligations, and are willing to cut down on hobbies. I consider 7+ plenty for an adult in their late 20's.
 
The recommended amount of sleep is 7-9 hours... 8 is considered the perfect number, so no way 7 is detrimental to health.
Right, but is he saying he could't get 7? Did he do surgery, or have children during residency ( w/o enough support, such as grandparents caring for child).
 
What specialty did you do? And what do you mean by not enough sleep ( like how much would you say is enough?). I have one relative who during IM residency got about 7 hrs a night average. I've heard plenty of stories that say 7 + hrs average is manageable if you don't have children or any other huge obligations, and are willing to cut down on hobbies. I consider 7+ plenty for an adult in their late 20's.
IM. There's a lot of variation between programs. I probably got around 5-6 hours per night, and then 12+ hours on my days off to make up for the sleep debt. Depending on the service, sometimes this meant not having time to do much else due to time commitments in the hospital. YMMV
 
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IM. There's a lot of variation between programs. I probably got around 5-6 hours per night, and then 12+ hours on my days off to make up for the sleep debt. Depending on the service, sometimes this meant not having time to do much else due to time commitments in the hospital. YMMV
See that's what stresses me out. Ive always felt like i need sleep and I thought most programs are structured with just enough time for adeqaute sleep.I did a lot of "ameteur research" on this and it seems like most IM/FM/Peds residents can acerage 7+ hrs a night, and even if they don't , you adjust. Welp.Turns out you sometimes don't.
 
Every program is different! And every person is different too. If you prioritize sleep, you can sleep enough (except for the super long shifts)
And after those super long shifts you get a day off to catch up on sleep ( like 24 hr call and post call day). Nnn. I get a little nervous thinking about it.
Alternatively just do Derm/Psych/RadOnc/Etc and you’ll have plenty of sleep.
Tehehehe okay. Well I could see myself doing psych, but not any of the others ( don't think I'd be competative for derm, etc.)
 
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During residency I averaged about 5 hours of sleep a night. Ended an engagement, had lots of interpersonal issues, was very underweight with BMI of 17 despite decent eating. However, I survived. So will anyone with enough self-discipline. Just make sure to seek psych help if things get really bad, I waited til I was a chief and that was likely too late.
 
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During residency I averaged about 5 hours of sleep a night. Ended an engagement, had lots of interpersonal issues, was very underweight with BMI of 17 despite decent eating. However, I survived. So will anyone with enough self-discipline. Just make sure to seek psych help if things get really bad, I waited til I was a chief and that was likely too late.
Uh...I'm not trying to sound mean or rude but you just described exactly what a lot of us are afraid of.
 
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During residency I averaged about 5 hours of sleep a night. Ended an engagement, had lots of interpersonal issues, was very underweight with BMI of 17 despite decent eating. However, I survived. So will anyone with enough self-discipline. Just make sure to seek psych help if things get really bad, I waited til I was a chief and that was likely too late.

Damn this sounds scary af.
I’m really glad you survived though
 
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Uh...I'm not trying to sound mean or rude but you just described exactly what a lot of us are afraid of.

Keep in mind that a surgical residency is likely to be more consistently brutal hours wise than a non-surgical one. You will have periods of sucky hours in both, but the consistency of suckage will vary drastically.

I’m currently on an ICU rotation. I get in at 5 and leave around 6 if I’m not on call. I get about 5.5 hours of sleep per night, though this is by my own choice (I could sleep an hour earlier and wake up a half hour later if I chose to, I just like my schedule). This ICU has residents from many different specialties, surgical and non-surgical serving in it. I was speaking with a resident from a non-surgical service (think medicin/neuro/peds/etc) who is on with me and this resident’s toughest hours overall in residency are this ICU rotation and they still average 7-8 hours per sleep a night overall. I know a resident in my specialty at another institution who makes sure they get 6.5 hours of sleep every single non-call night without fail.

The point here is that there are 1) specialties where you can almost always get an adequate amount of sleep and 2) even in more hour intensive specialties, there are ways to sleep more if you prioritize it.
 
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Keep in mind that a surgical residency is likely to be more consistently brutal hours wise than a non-surgical one. You will have periods of sucky hours in both, but the consistency of suckage will vary drastically.

I’m currently on an ICU rotation. I get in at 5 and leave around 6 if I’m not on call. I get about 5.5 hours of sleep per night, though this is by my own choice (I could sleep an hour earlier and wake up a half hour later if I chose to, I just like my schedule). This ICU has residents from many different specialties, surgical and non-surgical serving in it. I was speaking with a resident from a non-surgical service (think medicin/neuro/peds/etc) who is on with me and this resident’s toughest hours overall in residency are this ICU rotation and they still average 7-8 hours per sleep a night overall. I know a resident in my specialty at another institution who makes sure they get 6.5 hours of sleep every single non-call night without fail.

The point here is that there are 1) specialties where you can almost always get an adequate amount of sleep and 2) even in more hour intensive specialties, there are ways to sleep more if you prioritize it.
Oh I know that, I'm just saying what OrthoTrauma described sounds like a bad scenario and she makes it seem like it was fine...but if you ended an engagement and not getting help until chief year was " too late" then that sounds pretty bad....
Hm, 7-8 sounds great. I think by the time I'm old enough to be resident 6 ish would be fine for short bursts of time. It's consistently not being able to get more than 6 that would hurt me, but I plan on staying in FM/IM/peds, etc.
Your shift is from 5AM-6PM? I've never heard of work starting at 5, I thought it was more like 6-7 as a resident. Man. Or do you like, go to the gym or something?
 
Oh I know that, I'm just saying what OrthoTrauma described sounds like a bad scenario and she makes it seem like it was fine...but if you ended an engagement and not getting help until chief year was " too late" then that sounds pretty bad....
Hm, 7-8 sounds great. I think by the time I'm old enough to be resident 6 ish would be fine for short bursts of time. It's consistently not being able to get more than 6 that would hurt me, but I plan on staying in FM/IM/peds, etc.
Your shift is from 5AM-6PM? I've never heard of work starting at 5, I thought it was more like 6-7 as a resident. Man. Or do you like, go to the gym or something?

Our sign out is at 6 so the shift technically starts at 6, but I like to get there before that so I can know my patients better and be more prepared for rounds and therefore the day. I'm still a fairly new intern, so I tend to overcorrect for problems, and a wise chief resident once told me that most junior level problems can be solved simply by showing up earlier - I've found that advice to be quite accurate and even though I sacrifice a bit of sleep, I feel much more prepared for the day and feel like I take better care of my patients with a bit of extra preparation. Seems like a fair trade off to me.
 
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Our sign out is at 6 so the shift technically starts at 6, but I like to get there before that so I can know my patients better and be more prepared for rounds and therefore the day. I'm still a fairly new intern, so I tend to overcorrect for problems, and a wise chief resident once told me that most junior level problems can be solved simply by showing up earlier - I've found that advice to be quite accurate and even though I sacrifice a bit of sleep, I feel much more prepared for the day and feel like I take better care of my patients with a bit of extra preparation. Seems like a fair trade off to me.
I guess that depends on what other responsibilities you might have outside of work, how long the rotation is, etc. But wow. That is dedication. :clap:
 
I guess that depends on what other responsibilities you might have outside of work, how long the rotation is, etc. But wow. That is dedication. :clap:
The thing you might be not accounting for is the variation in sleep. You might average 7 hours but some programs still do 24+4 even for IM, and when you are new you might have to come in earlier to stay afloat some of my new IM interns were coming in at 6 am and were not leaving till midnight on some long days where they were supposed to leave by 8pm. Sometimes things arise that you need to take care of and it takes a little longer than you would have imagined.

Even if you are nights you may have trouble sleeping in the morning. Some residencies are scheduled where early on you take the brunt of this. The neurosurgery pgy1 and 2s something crazy like q3 call for a few months.
 
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The thing you might be not accounting for is the variation in sleep. You might average 7 hours but some programs still do 24+4 even for IM, and when you are new you might have to come in earlier to stay afloat some of my new IM interns were coming in at 6 am and were not leaving till midnight on some long days where they were supposed to leave by 8pm. Sometimes things arise that you need to take care of and it takes a little longer than you would have imagined.

Even if you are nights you may have trouble sleeping in the morning. Some residencies are scheduled where early on you take the brunt of this. The neurosurgery pgy1 and 2s something crazy like q3 call for a few months.
Oh ofc, a few bad nights is fine ( especially if I get 5 hrs). I have the occasional night with 2-3 hrs and coffee and I'm good to go. I can have bad nights 1-2 a week or even for a whole week, I just need to be able to crash and I can't do that long term.
Even a month or two averaging 6 hrs should be fine, if I don't have to do it for more than that long ( thinking of how long till the coffee stops helping).
And that's right now, and I'm hardly 22. I think by the time I'm 24-25 I should be better off when it comes to minimal sleep here and there/ my sleep needs to be rested will decrease ( according to another thread a made like 2.5 years ago about sleep deprivation).
 
I feel like I get sick every time I have a few days of less than 6 hours of sleep in a row. Is this not an issue for some residents?
 
I feel like I get sick every time I have a few days of less than 6 hours of sleep in a row. Is this not an issue for some residents?
How many days in a row? That sort of happened to me in Undergrad, but I think it's a combination of exam stress and lack of sleep. I don't get sick sick, but like just a sore throat that needs throat drops or just a sinus headache or like that runny nose/ stinging feeling/sneezy combination. And then it goes away once the stress washes of and I get a recharge sleep.
 
Our sign out is at 6 so the shift technically starts at 6, but I like to get there before that so I can know my patients better and be more prepared for rounds and therefore the day. I'm still a fairly new intern, so I tend to overcorrect for problems, and a wise chief resident once told me that most junior level problems can be solved simply by showing up earlier - I've found that advice to be quite accurate and even though I sacrifice a bit of sleep, I feel much more prepared for the day and feel like I take better care of my patients with a bit of extra preparation. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

IMO this isn’t a good idea. You should be able to develop your pre rounding skills to be efficient enough to show up at sign out time and still effectively take care of all of your patients. Coming in early is a crutch and if you do it consistently you may come to depend on it where as other residents will become better at being efficient
 
How many days in a row? That sort of happened to me in Undergrad, but I think it's a combination of exam stress and lack of sleep. I don't get sick sick, but like just a sore throat that needs throat drops or just a sinus headache or like that runny nose/ stinging feeling/sneezy combination. And then it goes away once the stress washes of and I get a recharge sleep.
I get a URI probably once or twice a year. Correlates with stress and less sleep.
 
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IMO this isn’t a good idea. You should be able to develop your pre rounding skills to be efficient enough to show up at sign out time and still effectively take care of all of your patients. Coming in early is a crutch and if you do it consistently you may come to depend on it where as other residents will become better at being efficient

A valid point, but I’m 1-4 years more junior than any of the other residents I’m working with right now, so I have significantly less experience.
 
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