The Boards need to be scored instead of Pass/fail to combat cheating!

[dan2699]

This is a throw away account since I post regularly on here and don't want any school administration to put 2 and 2 together.

The Boards need to be changed from Pass/Fail to an actual score. There is mainly 2 reasons.

First, how can we demand parity with the MD/DO when their boards have a numeral score but we only have Pass/fail?

And now the 2nd big reason, with the Boards being pass/fail, the only thing that signifies academic knowledge is your class rank/GPA! And that system is very flawed. Why you ask? The answer is CHEATING!

I had no idea there would be so many people cheating in Podiatry school but there are and the administration is turning a blind eye to it. A select group of students have access to older exam material but the professors are too lazy to change the exam every year. There is a problem when 30% of the class gets 100% on an exam for a hard subject. Another time, several students got 100% in another class but during exam review, several of the questions were thrown out due to their ambiguity or for not having a correct answer... hmmmm. How can these students get so lucky that they were able to "guess" on these 5-6 answers correctly?

This is making me sick to my stomach. At least if the boards was a scored test, it would level the playing field somewhat.

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[zdlamkin8195]

Since you are on a "throw away account," can you tell us what school you go to? If things are how you say they are, then it seems like the problem is more of an issue with going to a lower tier school than anything else....

 

[zdlamkin8195]

What the hell is a lower tier school in podiatry? I'd love some clarification on that. As far as I know all schools have poor things about their academic or clinical curriculums. All of them. Even at DMU...gasp!!!

I would say it would be one that allowed this type of situation: "30% of the class gets 100% on an exam for a hard subject. Another time, several students got 100% in another class but during exam review, several of the questions were thrown out due to their ambiguity or for not having a correct answer... hmmmm. How can these students get so lucky that they were able to "guess" on these 5-6 answers correctly?"

 

[zdlamkin8195]

Ok?

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I disagree with your 2nd premise Dan2699.

Cheating doesn't really impact much, IMO. Before I explain this, I want to make clear that I do not cheat (tbqh, I don't even know how I would cheat on my exams), nor do I condone cheating. Anyways, if you cheat your way through the didactic years of your training, do you really think you'll pass boards? I mean, look at part 1 first time pass rates! If 20% of students cannot pass the first time, it's not exactly an automatic-pass type of test. Furthermore, these 20% of students can't be the students that are cheating, because that would further disprove your thoughts insomuch that if the cheaters can't pass boards, then they wouldn't make it very far, which makes all of this a moot point. So assuming that all cheaters pass boards, and that 20% of all podiatry students are unfortunate/stupid/bad test takers/can't read/whatever, you would be upset that you have a chunk students that have stellar GPAs but never learned all the nuances of the material that you may have learned.

But, isn't that why we have clerkships? Won't their knowledge gaps be exceedingly obvious when they get pimped on rotation? Sure the GPA might get their foot in the door at better rotations that they might not have otherwise obtained, but isn't that a bad thing? If you have a bunch of cheaters rotating through Inova, do you REALLY think any of them will match there? No, of course not. So now you've got a bunch of students that did great rotations, but couldn't even approach the competition from other schools who actually did the leg work to learn the material. These students won't match at any of their rotations and they will scramble because they were out of their league, even though on paper they weren't.

For devil's advocate sake, you might argue that these stellar GPA students are smart enough to not rotate at the best programs, but to look at the lower tier programs where they will be more equally matched in academic prowess. Great! Now you've got cheating students with high GPAs matching at low tier programs. Isn't that where they were going to end up if they hadn't cheated to begin with?

What I'm trying to say is: Cheating literally accomplishes no goals, and the only reason I could possibly see you getting upset about it (and I concede this is a valid point, but you never made it, so I'm taking all the credit for proving you ashamedly wrong, and only slightly right) is that you would have a lower class rank than you might have had otherwise. Your GPA would be the same (unless your school curves tests, in which case, I wouldn't complain to begin with...), but you might have a lower rank that might exclude you from like 10 programs.

Also, not to be rude, but who cheats and repeatedly gets 100%? I feel like a cardinal rule of cheating is to never get 100% even if you know all the right answers... it's too obvious. If these cheaters are smart enough to pass boards, I would think they are smart enough to cheat properly.

 

[apollofx]

Boards should be scored and anyone who says they shouldn't is afraid of the results. Cheating is an epidemic in the schools and it is sickening that people like that will represent the profession.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Boards should be scored and anyone who says they shouldn't is afraid of the results. Cheating is an epidemic in the schools and it is sickening that people like that will represent the profession.

Perhaps endemic? I really don't think people cheat at my school - I don't know how they would get away with it. We have proctors walking around our testing hall, and all of our tests are on computers that utilize specialty software that disallows any background programs from running. The computers are locked down so much that it won't even let you change your volume once testing has begun.

If cheating is happening at DMU it's isolated.

If you feel strongly about this, and you are sure it's happening, talk to you school's administration, or at the very least tell us which schools it is happening at.

If you think it's epidemic and you want to start a list, be my guest, but it isn't happening at DMU.

Heck, we even got an email from a professor last week because someone posted a file on the private Facebook group that was available on our school class website. In other words, everyone in the group has access to this file in the class through DMUs site, but someone downloaded it and reposted it on closed Facebook group and everyone got an email from a professor telling us to take it down like the next day.

If we can't even get away posting professor-generated and school distributed material at DMU, idk how anyone would get away with distributing old exams.

So anyways, not epidemic.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Also, in regards to zdlamkins and ABs little quarrel, what kind of school puts together a test that has 6 questions thrown out?? Lol that's just a poor test. I'm lucky if one question ever gets thrown out! Maybe every third or fourth test I get one point back.

I find the OPs post dubious insomuch that how do the professors distribute the same test yearly knowing there are 6 questions that don't have correct answers. Either OP is lying, or the academics at your school are complete and utter garbage, and I feel bad for your academic experience more than I feel bad your classmates are cheaters.

 

[Pronation]

I agree that the boards need to be scored. I have no comment on the cheating stuff...

 

[dtrack22]

Boards should be scored and anyone who says they shouldn't is afraid of the results. Cheating is an epidemic in the schools and it is sickening that people like that will represent the profession.

I would love boards to be scored, in theory. Not all GPA's are created equal. A 90% can be a 4.0 at one school and a 3.7 at another. Some school's have instructors who are notorious for not giving A's (usually because they are old and the whole "curve"/a certain number of kids should fail/etc. mentality is dumb but prevalent in higher ed). Apparently some school's have cheating problems? Based on historical posts and accusations (on the professional level like NBPME) I would guess this is primarily an issue at the few remaining stand alone school's.

But then I think about our board exam and wonder, do I really want that exam to have any bearing on my future?

 

[pacpod]

My views are most similar to dtrack22's. Yes, boards should be scored instead of pass/fail. No, I don't think the exam in it's current form should be scored.

 

[ldsrmdude]

I have always advocated for scored boards and I think that the boards should be scored as they are. I don't see any reason not to.

I personally never saw any issues with cheating at AZPod or the quality of the tests. I see much better reasons for scoring the boards than cheating that I personally think is likely pretty isolated. Just my $0.02

 

[OhEmGee]

My views are most similar to dtrack22's. Yes, boards should be scored instead of pass/fail. No, I don't think the exam in it's current form should be scored.

this. i am all for scored boards, but write a better test.

the APMLE part 1 is joke. for those advocating for a "scored boards".... have you taken them yet?

also our externships negate the need for a scored boards. my pals in medschool only have their board score and an interview to land them a program. we have a whole month at a program to secure a spot. i think its safe to say how you perform that month outweighs grades and a board score.

 

[SuperFeisty]

Hey AB, maybe I misunderstood, but I went to the student section of the New York Podiatry Conference a month or so ago. According to the Q&A sessions with several residency directors, they mentioned that if you externed with them and they grant you an interview, there won't be much of academics. They would mostly conduct a social interview? It's probably different across the board, but could you shed some light on what people should expect at the interview? I hear a lot through the grapevine, and I'd love to see your thoughts.

 

[g squared 23]

Agreed but after experiencing CRIP I can attest the interview can also "make or break you"...even if you had a solid month. In comparison to our MD/DO colleagues we have so many more chances to secure or lose a program. I don't see how scoring board the exam in its current state will add anything to your overall profile. Even if boards were scored and you knocked them out of the park, if you stink up the joint during your interview I have no doubt you will NOT be matching at that program.

Hate to say it, but WAY too much emphasis is placed on a 20 minute interview. Admittedly, it's because this is many attendings' chance to evaluate students, because they either didn't pay enough attention when the students came through the first time, or did not get to meet them. Residents have a say in which students are top of the pile, but ultimately it's the doctors who rank the students. So the best a resident can do is speak out against a student, but can't ensure they get the program. And they certainly can't save anyone after a terrible interview.

 

[pacpod]

Hate to say it, but WAY too much emphasis is placed on a 20 minute interview. Admittedly, it's because this is many attendings' chance to evaluate students, because they either didn't pay enough attention when the students came through the first time, or did not get to meet them. Residents have a say in which students are top of the pile, but ultimately it's the doctors who rank the students. So the best a resident can do is speak out against a student, but can't ensure they get the program. And they certainly can't save anyone after a terrible interview.

100% agree

 

[janV88]

I would agree with what dtrack, AB, and others have said. In the ideal world boards would be scored but the current exam is pretty worthless.

Personally, I only went to 3 interviews but all 3 interviews were mostly academic. Roughly 25 min of academics and 5 min of social. All my friends had similar experiences.

 

[dtrack22]

Hey AB, maybe I misunderstood, but I went to the student section of the New York Podiatry Conference a month or so ago. According to the Q&A sessions with several residency directors, they mentioned that if you externed with them and they grant you an interview, there won't be much of academics. They would mostly conduct a social interview? It's probably different across the board, but could you shed some light on what people should expect at the interview? I hear a lot through the grapevine, and I'd love to see your thoughts.

It is entirely dependent on the program. In large, most programs are much more academic than they need to be IMO. That was my biggest complaint about interviews. I saw CRIP as largely unnecessary. As if 30 days wasn't enough to tell a program that you would or wouldn't make a good resident. But then again, most of my programs had a list in their head going into interviews.

 

[jonod1107]

Since you are on a "throw away account," can you tell us what school you go to? If things are how you say they are, then it seems like the problem is more of an issue with going to a lower tier school than anything else....

Lol are you still going on about your magical podiatry ranking system? Lets be honest, there is no podiatry school that has the reputation of our MD counterpart like Hopkins, Harvard, Stanford etc. To claim there is just goes to show that someone is compensating too hard. Lets be honest, Podiatry is a good field but nobody in the general public is going to be in awe when you say I go to "******** school" like they would be if you said I go to Harvard Medical School.

 

[zdlamkin8195]

Lol are you still going on about your magical podiatry ranking system? Lets be honest, there is no podiatry school that has the reputation of our MD counterpart like Hopkins, Harvard, Stanford etc. To claim there is just goes to show that someone is compensating too hard. Lets be honest, Podiatry is a good field but nobody in the general public is going to be in awe when you say I go to "******** school" like they would be if you said I go to Harvard Medical School.

Haha this is ridiculous. I called someone out for complaining about their school anonymously, and now I was comparing pod schools to Ivy League MD schools? Right...