The BSN Stigma

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brainnurse

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Does it actually exist?

I'm coming up on a crossroad, guys. In a nutshell, I'm a critical care nurse with an ADN who recently started her path to medical school. On top of the prereqs, I still need some sort of Bachelor's Degree. I've calculated the number of years it will take me to get done with a BSN+Prereqs (Fall 2016) vs. BS-Biology or Biomedical Science (Spring 2018). I have over a hundred credits, both from here and from another country, so my GPAs, both cumulative and science, are incredibly resistant. I've calculated the maximum possible GPAs for each degree:

Degree: cGPA/sGPA
  • BSN: 3.36/3.38
  • BS-Biomed: 3.37/3.53
These numbers assume that I will get As on every single class I ever take from now on. I am actually worried that trying to get As in BS-Biomed classes will be close to impossible while I'm working. The BSN degree looks more attractive right now, as it frees up a lot of my already limited time. I can use that time to volunteer, focus on my classes, study for the MCAT, etcetera. I could keep taking science classes during the gap year and beyond, if I don't get accepted. My local university offers a one-year Master's in Medical Sciences, which I could apply to, maybe?

Anyway, here are my questions:
  1. Would a BSN actually be a handicap in this case?
  2. Would a 3.38 vs. a 3.5 sGPA be significant, considering the relatively similar cGPAs?
I understand my GPAs are on the low end. I can only do so much to boost them at this point. I plan to work really, really hard to get a decent MCAT. That means freeing up my time where I can so I can study for it, which is yet another reason why I want to take the BSN route. Plus I want to finally get a Bachelor's Degree in something. Anything, even. I've been in college on and off since I was seventeen. I've had to move so much that I never actually got to finish a degree. Would be nice to have one sooner rather than later, you know?

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So, I think it depends upon how much your ADN relevant credits will be accepted and go toward your BSN. In the interest of time, if this looks good from the university's POV, go ahead a get the BSN. You could take pre-reqs during this time, if you can, or you can apply to a post-bac pre-med program. The reason I am saying this is b/c if they take most of your ADN credits, you would be closer to obtaining a bachelor's in the nursing, for that is the degree in which you have most of your credits. Or am I wrong on this?

If you get a BS in something else, you probably won't have as many transferable credits. Remember. The important thing to know for application for MS is that you, for the most part anyway, have to have a bachelor's degree. You have to have all the required pre-reqs and do well in them: and this would be to include social sciences such as soc and psych, which you must have had for your ADN. It is also advisable nowadays to have a biochem course beyod the year of approved bios, gen chems (1 Yr_, organic chems (1 Yr), and physics (1 Year). It is helpful to have had alg w/ trig/pre calc and/or calc as well--depending upon the school where you take your required sciences. Add to that a good score on the MCAT. Not sure what that will mean, given the changes in 2015. All the other stuff such as volunteer work, shadowing, etc.

If you choose to do something like biochemistry. Do it because you like it. I say do whatever undergrad b/c your are interested in it and obtain the pre-req's as DIY or a formal post-bac. If after that, your GPA still needs help, take more undergrad, higher level sciences or consider a formal SMP or the like.

Obviously there is no bypassing the science pre-reqs and getting good grades in those courses as well. I'd calculate the difference in the number of courses you'd need to procure the undergrad degree--unless I was so hot for the hard sciences undergrad degree. Also, if your calculations are correct, and the BS-Biomed would get you the higher cGPA and sGPA, then take the extra time and do that degree.

I was at a different place than you. As an older student, more of my credits were in nursing, so that degree made sense. You have to weigh what you are truly interested in and can do well in with what makes the most sense for you--whether it is a time factor or a cGPA factor. You then have to figure in what will work with re: to your work schedule and the ability to shadow, volunteer, and prepare your best application.
If had made more sense for me, I would have chosen BS in biochem; but as it turned out, it wouldn't have, and it would have been more expensive for me. There were other reasons having to do with my work and family schedule as well.
Don't know if that helps. :)
 
Hey jl lin. The RN-BSN program at the regional university here will take all of my ADN courses. I will be done with the Bachelor's AND the prereqs, including Biochemistry, by the end of Fall 2016, which makes that route extremely attractive.
 
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Wouldn't a BS in bio handle more of your pre-reqs than a BSN? Some of the upper level bio classes like micro, genetics, and biochem will be invaluable for your MCAT.
 
Wouldn't a BS in bio handle more of your pre-reqs than a BSN? Some of the upper level bio classes like micro, genetics, and biochem will be invaluable for your MCAT.

The prereqs for medical school are the same prereqs for the two years of U/L Bio and Chem classes required to graduate with a BS-Bio. With the BSN plan, I take my medical school prereqs with my U/L nursing classes (I only need about 30 U/L nursing credits to graduate), which cuts my undergrad time by two years, maybe more. I've taken Microbiology twice now (one overseas and one in the US), and biochemistry once (overseas). I will retake biochemistry, and maybe take genetics, while doing the BSN degree. That's 6-8 extra credits vs. 48 required for a BS-Bio degree.

Just to be clear guys, this isn't a "which degree is better" thread. Clearly, by stats alone, more people get into medical school with a Biology degree. MCATs are also generally higher with one. If I was starting over from scratch, without the 100+ credits already in my name, the bills I am responsible for, and various other reasons, I would most definitely go for a BS-Bio degree. I'm still considering it, obviously, but I'm more interested in clarifying if (1) the differences in possible sGPAs actually matter, and (2) if the BSN stigma exists. I have heard from at least one medical student that medical schools do not like admitting nurses. Is this true?
 
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Essentially there is nothing wrong with getting an undergrad degree is just about anything you want, so long as you do the pre-reqs, score well in them, do well on the MCAT, and jump through the other hoops.

The issue that is disturbing to me is when I see people needing a bachelor's who are NOT already RNs and going for the BSN as a jumping off point to medical school. This is suboptimal to getting another degree in general. The reason is that you are saying you aren't really making a commitment to the profession of nursing, and that you are using it as stepping stone to try to get into med school. In my opinion, this is just idiotic--for a number of reasons.

One is that whilst striving to get into medical school, you will be lucky if you get the opportunity to get strong clinical experience as nurse in acute or critical care--two of the main areas where clinical exposure is most valuable--much less move through the 5 levels of nursing experience:
    1. Novice
    2. Advanced beginner
    3. Competent
    4. Proficient
    5. Expert
It takes time to learn and apply clinical nursing. You can't get this in a year or two of nursing. You can't really get it in three years, full-time--especially if you work in a specialty area, like various forms of critical care.

Two, these areas will physically and mentally beat you up, due to the sheer physical work, the rotation schedules, the numerous stressors of functioning effectively in an area that demands a lot of multifunctional/multi-disciplinary work and commitment. Some of this may depend on the area of nursing you choose to focus on; but in general, you are forced to interact with so many disciplines and clients, trying to focus on priorities and keeping everyone happy, which is not something that can always be done, but it IS expected of the nurse. So, then you are running around trying to attend the required pre-req sciences and scoring well, while working rotating schedules as an RN, as well as shadowing, volunteering, preparing for MCAT, developing sound relationships, and preparing a strong application overall. You can forget about a social life if you are working full-time while going to school. And even if your grades don't suffer, chances are you will get sick or have boatload of trouble at work. Eventually something has to give when you work in the craziness that is acute/critical care in a busy hospital, working rotations. Working other areas will not give you the same valuable experience, and you need to at least get to competent/proficient in the field.

Yes, if you get a undergrad degree in science, you may then work in some level of research; but generally you won't be working rotating, 12 hour D/N schedules whilst working your arse off in the same way. (Literally in many areas of nursing in a busy hospital, it's like someone blows the whistle, the ball is kicked, and you start running and you don't stop until morning or night, whichever rotation you are on at the time.)

Plus rotation from day to night every two weeks makes attending classes and labs tough--or even being able to schedule classes, b/c some weeks you will be working day 12s, which means you can't attend the classes and labs on those days. This is a huge problem. And if you do get there after working 12-13 hours all night, you may not be as sharp and alert for the class as you should be. So, in general, unless you can knock out all your pre-reqs and get A's--while building good rapport with your professors in these classes--all during the completion of your undergrad, it's a waste a time. Even if you manage that, it's still a huge waste of time to go straight for nursing as some kind of bridge to medicine, b/c you will not have time to really work in the field and gain any valuable expertise to use on your med school application and PS.

That's why going from nursing to medicine only makes sense if you are/were already a RN and needed the BSN after working for a while out of an ADN or diploma school program. In most cases, I don't even think it makes sense to get an LPN and then go to become a RN through a BSN program. This approach ONLY makes sense if you have already been a licensed RN, who obtained the right to sit for state board RN exams through a BSN program, or you have completed an NLN accredited RN program sat for the boards and passed, then worked for a decent period of time in nursing, and found that you had developed a legitimate and profound interest in medicine after working in the nursing field.

It makes not sense to go for a BSN if you know you will have essentially no time working in the field. In all likelihood, most nurses that go to medical school will have very little to absolutely no time to work as a RN while in medical school or residency. And good luck with trying to get a per diem position in most places without a good 2 to 3 years full-time experience in your particular area of nursing practice.
 
r
The prereqs for medical school are the same prereqs for the two years of U/L Bio and Chem classes required to graduate with a BS-Bio. With the BSN plan, I take my medical school prereqs with my U/L nursing classes (I only need about 30 U/L nursing credits to graduate), which cuts my undergrad time by two years, maybe more. I've taken Microbiology twice now (one overseas and one in the US), and biochemistry once (overseas). I will retake biochemistry, and maybe take genetics, while doing the BSN degree. That's 6-8 extra credits vs. 48 required for a BS-Bio degree.
Just to be clear guys, this isn't a "which degree is better" thread. Clearly, by stats alone, more people get into medical school with a Biology degree. MCATs are also generally higher with one. If I was starting over from scratch, without the 100+ credits already in my name, the bills I am responsible for, and various other reasons, I would most definitely go for a BS-Bio degree. I'm still considering it, obviously, but I'm more interested in clarifying if (1) the differences in possible sGPAs actually matter, and (2) if the BSN stigma exists. I have heard from at least one medical student that medical schools do not like admitting nurses. Is this true?

I am not sure that some form of BSN “stigma” exists. I think if there is a stigma, it is with re: to trying to use BSN to jump into medicine, without any sense of commitment to the nursing field and any strong clinical experience. There is just no advantage to doing this, and frankly, it’s illogical. Why would you get an undergrad degree in something you have never worked in or want to work in, or will have time to work in in the first place?

Nursing has some sound theory, but most of it is something you get through application put together well with the theory and other knowledge of certain scientific principles and an overview of diseases and medical approaches to treatment.
Save the nursing degree for those that want to actually work in nursing. I truly wanted to work in nursing. I had no idea that I would actually consider medicine until working in the field of nursing for a number of years. It was never, for a second, a bridge to medicine. LOL. People are kidding themselves when they think this.

So, if you want to go right for medicine, it makes most sense to get a natural sciences degree IMHO.

In fact, if I were the ruler of the healthcare universe, I’d require, overall, more hard-core sciences for most areas of healthcare or allied health. No dumbed-down sciences courses. When you are trying to understand pharmacological processes as well as physiology and pathophysiology, these sciences make sense to me. Some people argue about the necessity of physics, but physics helps us to understand how the world within and around us works.
Since I am not the Health Science Czar, well, college programs do what they will. :bookworm:

But if you are already a RN, BrainRN, like you or me, and you decide/ed after working for a while in the field that you have really become more interested in medicine than nursing, well, that’s a different story. At that point, it’s not unreasonable to finish your undergrad in something you started in the first place. After all, it’s become a requirement for working in most hospitals anymore—RN or not--Most Magnet hospitals are reticent to hire RNs that do not also possess BSNs. So, after all your work in the field, you might as well finish the undergrad to BSN at least, and figure out how to take any needed pre-reqs, either with the program or in some kind of sound post-bacc scenario and do well in them. Even if you are a NP, more than likely, you will still have to take a good chunk of the required pre-req sciences, including o chem I/II, Physics I/II, and biochemistry. In fact, I doubt if a lot of NPs have actually had inorganic chem II.
 
Perhaps personal bias are floating around, but it's always been logical to me for someone with the most clinical experiences (baring they have the grades/mcat) to be a great candidate for med school. Those are the people who I want to work with and I know wants to here with the patients. There are plenty of people from other healthcare fields on this forum who switched to med school. One of the ENTs I used to work with started out as a nurse! The consensus is that it doesn't look good if you're jumping ship from nursing without a valid reason. However, you have plenty of experience as an ADN already (and let's be real, you function the same as a person with a BSN).

Your main problem are your grades. You say that going the BSN route will free up time, but are you saying that because you have nursing experience? Is this an online degree? Taking pre-med classes along with your BSN classes will be no joke. Clinicals will eat up most of your time and grading is usually harsh/unforgiving. I think you have a better chance maintaining a 4.0 if you solely focus on Biomed classes vs having to juggle your BSN classes along with premed courses.

To answer your question though, there isn't any stigma if you can explain your situation eloquently in your personal statement. I was sort of brought up in a nursing environment, hence I became a nurse. I didn't know I wanted medicine until two years after being licensed. From personal experience, every single person I've spoken to has been 100% supportive of my decision to switch from nursing. Attendings and specialists are eager to give me their cell phone numbers for when I need letters of rec or shadowing hours : ). They also try to persuade me to their chosen specialty, which makes me feel extremely flattered and humble because I feel like a speck next to them. If it wasn't for the encouragement of the two attendings next to me one spectacular night, I would have ended up as an NP. If I'm also reading this correctly, the Biomed degree will take you an extra two years? Why's that? The science gpa will play a factor, but to what extent I don't know. Med schools have to draw the line somewhere with the abundance of great applicants. the The best way to maximize your chances is to apply smartly to schools who you fall near the median/average GPA and MCAT.
For example, UF says their average science gpa is 3.72 and 31.75 (http://admissions.med.ufl.edu/faq/). You can purchase the MSAR and research other schools.
 
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Luckily, college programs do do what they will, and plenty of people get in with musical theatre degrees, art degrees, humanities etc. Do what you need to do to tackle the prereqs. Pursuing an alternate degree seems wasteful. You can explain your transition (it's been done). I mean, you're still going to have to explain the transition either way!

Good luck.
 
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What, medical training isn't already long enough for you that you want to add on a couple extra years? To me, this is a no-brainer. Assuming you can take the proper pre-req courses, heck yeah, get the BSN instead of wasting two years on a biology degree you don't want or need. Even if there is a bias against admitting nurses to med school (and I don't believe there is one, having been on the adcom side of things), isn't it kinda sorta already too late for you to avoid it? I mean, if you did get a BS instead of the BSN, are you somehow magically no longer going to be a nurse applying to medical school? :eyebrow:
 
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In your case, since the BS Biomedical Science does not give you the opportunity to bring your both cGPA and sGPA closer to the matriculant averages around 3.6-3.7, and since you mentioned that you probably would have trouble maintaining high grades in the BS Biomedical Science. at this point, I think you're time and money would be better spent finishing off the BSN and doing a Special Master's Program like the MS in Medical Science that you mentioned that your university offers. Bear in mind that it probably will be difficult to maintain a high GPA in such a program, so something will have to change along the way (i.e. you will have to work less hours or something).

In terms of BSN vs other degrees for applying to medical school, I have posted about it in multiple other threads. Here's what the numbers look like:
According to https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/2013factstable18.pdf "Specialized Health Sciences" majors (I believe this is where BSNs would fall) had a 32.6% matriculation rate. This is lower than the 41.1% for Bio majors. However, the average total MCAT score of specialized health science majors applicants was 25.6 whereas that of the Bio applicants was 28.2. The corresponding numbers in the case of matriculants were much closer to each other, i.e. 29.8 and 31.1 respectively. The GPAs of applicants vs matriculants were comparable for both majors in both cases. Strictly from a gpa and MCAT point of view, this leads me to believe that the lower acceptance rate of specialized health sciences majors may have had something to do with the fact that the MCAT scores of their applicants were, on average, 2.6 points below their bio major counterparts as opposed to the fact that nursing was their major.
 
@brainnurse ... BSN stigma? I did not notice that in the interview trail last cycle... I had an ADN and transferred to a 4-year university to do my BSN... I took my prereqs while doing my BSN, which took me 3 years overall... I went to couple interviews and no one said anything about my degree. Couple of acceptances (MD/DO) and declined couple of interviews... Just do the prereqs while getting your BSN and you should be ok as long as everything else is solid.
 
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Strictly from a gpa and MCAT point of view, this leads me to believe that the lower acceptance rate of specialized health sciences majors may have had something to do with the fact that the MCAT scores of their applicants were, on average, 2.6 points below their bio major counterparts as opposed to the fact that nursing was their major.
This is correct. It is not the major; it is that their average lower stats make allied health majors less competitive applicants for med school.

The same can be said for nontrads versus trads: on average, nontrads aged 30 and older have lower stats than younger applicants. But the select group of applicants in their 30s who have stellar stats (3.8+ GPA and 35+ MCAT) do extremely well, even at the most selective schools.
 
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You guys are the freaking best! I just pulled a 16-hour and really needed all the smiling I did when I logged on to find all of your responses. Your reasonable voices so effectively calm my raging fears, over and over. I've spent my entire life in healthcare, yet this whole process has me just a tad unhinged. I feel alone in the journey, surrounded by nurses going to ARNP/CRNA schools and doctors who went straight from their Bio degrees to Med school to Neurosurgery/IM/Neurology/whatever residencies. I've met two physicians who were nurses, and they're long gone from my sphere. Plus I've been out of college for a couple of years AND have not done a science course in far longer. My insecurities are raging a little. I second-guess every single decision, and I'm so afraid I'm wasting my time on a frivolous desire. I gather info obsessively. In fact, I already have the online MSAR and might buy a Gen. Chem MCAT review book. Considering I won't have to apply for another couple of years, isn't that kind of ridiculous? Haha.

Thanks to your advice, I decided on the BSN path today. I registered for the classes and am going to orientation this week. If all goes well, I will be taking Bio 2, Chem 1, and 6 online nursing credits in the Spring. All of my nursing classes will be online. There will be a little bit of clinical time, to be completed during/after work hours at my place of employment. Strangely, the College of Nursing at this university rarely allows their RN-BSN students to go full time, which works perfectly. The plan goes like this:

Summer 2015
Chem 2
Nursing x 6 Cr

Fall 2015
O. Chem I
Physics I
Nursing x 6 Cr

Spring 2016
O. Chem II
Physics II (or Biochem Lecture?)
Nursing x 6 Cr


Summer 2016
- MCAT??
Apply to SMP?
Nursing x 6 Cr
(Physics II?)
Bachelor's Done YAYY!

Apply?
Fall 2016

More science classes or Start SMP?

WIN? :D

On another note, I found some volunteer opportunities today. I really hope everything works out. Thank you again, everyone. BSN with Prereqs/Chem Minor it is!
 
Uh uh, no taking the MCAT without completing physics II. :uhno:

You know you're allowed to take classes during the app year, right? Do you have to take nursing credits every semester? Because if you can, I'd rearrange your schedule to look more like this:

Spring 2015: Bio II w/ lab, Chem I w/ lab, trig if you need it (prep you for physics), and sure, take a couple of fluff nursing credits if you're up for them
Summer 2015: Chem II w/ lab
Fall 2016: Organic I w/ lab, Physics I w/ lab (no nursing BS, this is a tough semester)
Spring 2016: Organic II w/ lab, Physics II w/ lab (ditto here)
Summer 2016: MCAT prep (take test late June/early July), apply to med school (in June/July)
Fall 2016: apps, nursing stuff, biochem if you want to take it
Spring 2017: nursing stuff, any other requirements you need to finish
Summer 2017: any last minute requirements
Fall 2017: matriculate in med school

Don't buy any MCAT review books now. The test is changing next year, and any on sale this year will be out of date by the time you take your test.
 
Also, there's a graphic floating around about MCAT 2015, and it's clear from that that Biochem > Orgo > Physics. Biochem is going to be a HUGE part of the exam, accounting for the second highest number of questions after Biology. I would definitely squeeze it in!
 
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Uh uh, no taking the MCAT without completing physics II. :uhno:

You know you're allowed to take classes during the app year, right? Do you have to take nursing credits every semester? Because if you can, I'd rearrange your schedule to look more like this:

Spring 2015: Bio II w/ lab, Chem I w/ lab, trig if you need it (prep you for physics), and sure, take a couple of fluff nursing credits if you're up for them
Summer 2015: Chem II w/ lab
Fall 2016: Organic I w/ lab, Physics I w/ lab (no nursing BS, this is a tough semester)
Spring 2016: Organic II w/ lab, Physics II w/ lab (ditto here)
Summer 2016: MCAT prep (take test late June/early July), apply to med school (in June/July)
Fall 2016: apps, nursing stuff, biochem if you want to take it
Spring 2017: nursing stuff, any other requirements you need to finish
Summer 2017: any last minute requirements
Fall 2017: matriculate in med school

Don't buy any MCAT review books now. The test is changing next year, and any on sale this year will be out of date by the time you take your test.

Thanks, Q. Unfortunately I don't control the nursing schedule. Plus this wonderful state of Florida requires that I finish my degree within the alotted time frame or risk a 50% surcharge. :( I do like your timeframe though. The last thing I want is to take the MCAT unprepared. I've taken physics in the past and plan to do heavy review before I start the sequence so, hopefully, that lightens my O. Chem semesters a bit. Aaah, I'm getting way ahead of myself. I gotta make sure I can hack this coming semester first!
 
Also, there's a graphic floating around about MCAT 2015, and it's clear from that that Biochem > Orgo > Physics. Biochem is going to be a HUGE part of the exam, accounting for the second highest number of questions after Biology. I would definitely squeeze it in!

Thank you. All the informatiom AAMC released about MCAT 2015 seems to suggest that heirarchy of importance as well, so I definitely plan on squezing it in.
 
Also, there's a graphic floating around about MCAT 2015, and it's clear from that that Biochem > Orgo > Physics. Biochem is going to be a HUGE part of the exam, accounting for the second highest number of questions after Biology. I would definitely squeeze it in!


This is pretty much what I found from my research on it thus far. More stats inferences too--whether it relates to hard sciences or to psych-based or soc-based issues. Of course you need stats and a research for BSN too. I had to include Econ as well, but it's its own kind of cool I think. Not that Econ will be on the MCAT--I meant as a degree requirement for my BSN program when I went through it.
 
Thanks, Q. Unfortunately I don't control the nursing schedule. Plus this wonderful state of Florida requires that I finish my degree within the alotted time frame or risk a 50% surcharge. :( I do like your timeframe though. The last thing I want is to take the MCAT unprepared. I've taken physics in the past and plan to do heavy review before I start the sequence so, hopefully, that lightens my O. Chem semesters a bit. Aaah, I'm getting way ahead of myself. I gotta make sure I can hack this coming semester first!
Hmmm! Is that school in South FL?
 
BrainRN, wow. How is your school granting you a BSN w/o more upper nursing credits? Granted I went to a private school, but more nursing and other courses, such as Econ, stats, pathophysiology, I could go on, were required. Sure they took a lot of credits from my first nursing program--AAS RN/bio, but there were lots of nursing credits--upper level--required at my university, such as research, genetics/genomics, big community/public health, global health,.they all were research/writing intensive, as well as other req courses. There were prereqs before you could take these courses. Obviously, it's stupid to take the research w/o passing stats, for example. I'm just confused by only 24 credits and w/o seemingly other reqs that are generally typical for bachelors in science nursing programs. IDK, but you might want to really check out that program.
 
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