The doom and gloom worked at my school

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Anesthesiaholic

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Just started my home anesthesia rotation today and found out I am the only one from my class of 150 that is applying for anesthesiology this year. There were a few more of my classmates who were interested that dropped off at the last minute. Guess I was the only one who couldn't see myself doing anything else.

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Is it CRNA worries you think? I'm interested in anesthesia but I don't really want to supervise CRNA's ever. If you do a fellowship do you do your own cases more often?
 
Just started my home anesthesia rotation today and found out I am the only one from my class of 150 that is applying for anesthesiology this year. There were a few more of my classmates who were interested that dropped off at the last minute. Guess I was the only one who couldn't see myself doing anything else.


If this is widespread, it could be good news for you. 5 years down the road there could be a decent job market again.
 
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If this is widespread, it could be good news for you. 5 years down the road there could be a decent job market again.

Hardly. Anesthesia spots will still fill, just with lesser quality applicants or people scrambling in from other fields, which will dilute the quality of the field without affecting the job market.
 
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The peeps that graduated residency in the late '90s hit it big. Even when I was graduating, peeps were still getting great spots all across desirable areas in the country- I gambled on fears of this and that and I think I made the right decision. Keep in mind that these things can be cyclical.

There is an elephant in the room... his name is AMC with ACT model. The future is always unknown. I think you should do what makes you happy.

I still think anesthesia is da bomb! Doing 65 hours in primary practice is very different than doing 65 hours in anesthesia. :cigar:
 
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My class is going the other way- a month ago there were 6 of us, and as of last week we are over 10. Of course, we have the largest anesthesia residency program in the country and are known for graduating large numbers of would-be anesthesiologists, but still.
 
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Is it CRNA worries you think? I'm interested in anesthesia but I don't really want to supervise CRNA's ever. If you do a fellowship do you do your own cases more often?
It is my honest belief that in the future supervision will be the only choice unless you are willing to sit in a room for a Crna's salary and not a penny more.
 
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Just started my home anesthesia rotation today and found out I am the only one from my class of 150 that is applying for anesthesiology this year. There were a few more of my classmates who were interested that dropped off at the last minute. Guess I was the only one who couldn't see myself doing anything else.
Think again, brother. The other pasture wasn't quite as green. @Anesthesiaholic
 
Hardly. Anesthesia spots will still fill, just with lesser quality applicants or people scrambling in from other fields, which will dilute the quality of the field without affecting the job market.

This. Our PD had a class meeting to discuss what things may have changed to have more than half our class foreign grads. Until now it has been2 maybe 3.
 
So if the high quality applicants aren't going into Anesthesia (as much) where are they going?
 
So if the high quality applicants aren't going into Anesthesia (as much) where are they going?
Surgery, EM, IM. The ultra-competitive fields like derm, plastics, rad onc are too small to make a big ripple otherwise.
 
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Agree with bronx.

I'd even throw in FM. The job market is incredible with anesthesia-pay depending on type of practice and location, no/minimal stress, no call, 4-4.5 day work weeks, no weekends, good vacation time off.
 
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It is my honest belief that in the future supervision will be the only choice unless you are willing to sit in a room for a Crna's salary and not a penny more.

Too bad, I'll probably still try and do a rotation in anesthesia my 3rd year but I guess I will keep looking at EM or some type of surgery. Your guys job seems cool and it's sad to see it get taken away.
 
Oh man no thanks. I'd rather supervise CRNAs for the rest of my days than work in a clinic. *shudder*

Didn't say it's for everyone. I just said that a lot are also going that route for the lifestyle. Also, just because you're FM doesn't mean you're relegated to clinic either. However, you obviously have a heavy dose of that depending on how you practice.
 
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I'd even throw in FM. The job market is incredible with anesthesia-pay depending on type of practice and location, no/minimal stress, no call, 4-4.5 day work weeks, no weekends, good vacation time off.

Been there, done that with General Practice. While I can't deny the days, the patients were friendly enough, the hours were longer once I had to deal with the paperwork. I was thinking of FM, but in the end, the endless clinics, paperwork, social services I had to activate to help was just a logistical nightmare.

I was happy to get into Anesthesiology, and looking back, I know I made the right choice in doing so. The effort I made just for the interview was worth it (PM me if you care to hear, it's a fun story, and involves SDN in a good way.)

While you do have to earn an income, especially with the debt we all have these days after training is done, the trick is to find the balance of what you like with what will be income earning for you.
 
Been there, done that with General Practice. While I can't deny the days, the patients were friendly enough, the hours were longer once I had to deal with the paperwork. I was thinking of FM, but in the end, the endless clinics, paperwork, social services I had to activate to help was just a logistical nightmare.

I was happy to get into Anesthesiology, and looking back, I know I made the right choice in doing so. The effort I made just for the interview was worth it (PM me if you care to hear, it's a fun story, and involves SDN in a good way.)

While you do have to earn an income, especially with the debt we all have these days after training is done, the trick is to find the balance of what you like with what will be income earning for you.

From these boards it doesn't seem like AMC's will pay enough to pay down $300k of school loans. That's a major concern of mine with anesthesia.
 
One year out of training. I love what I do. I do all my own cases and eat what I kill. Money's great. Most days I can't believe I get paid to do this. There are great jobs out there but they gotta be earned, they won't just be handed to you.
 
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One year out of training. I love what I do. I do all my own cases and eat what I kill. Money's great. Most days I can't believe I get paid to do this. There are great jobs out there but they gotta be earned, they won't just be handed to you.

Does eat what you kill imply private practice? Does this type of model not exist with AMCs or academics? I'm assuming no since those are usually salaried positions. Seems like everything else has a income ceiling cap except the PP model.
 
Does eat what you kill imply private practice? Does this type of model not exist with AMCs or academics? I'm assuming no since those are usually salaried positions. Seems like everything else has a income ceiling cap except the PP model.
Some academic jobs have incentive compensation linked to productivity and/or late/call. I've worked at two that do. I imagine some hospital employed and AMC groups have some form of this as well.
But that is not really eat what you kill. Pooled unit eat what you kill is the best job out there.
 
Does eat what you kill imply private practice? Does this type of model not exist with AMCs or academics? I'm assuming no since those are usually salaried positions. Seems like everything else has a income ceiling cap except the PP model.

Friend of mine does 5-600k+good benes doing academic PICU/peds anesthesia in SoCal. He is very productive.
 
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Been there, done that with General Practice. While I can't deny the days, the patients were friendly enough, the hours were longer once I had to deal with the paperwork. I was thinking of FM, but in the end, the endless clinics, paperwork, social services I had to activate to help was just a logistical nightmare.

I was happy to get into Anesthesiology, and looking back, I know I made the right choice in doing so. The effort I made just for the interview was worth it (PM me if you care to hear, it's a fun story, and involves SDN in a good way.)

While you do have to earn an income, especially with the debt we all have these days after training is done, the trick is to find the balance of what you like with what will be income earning for you.

Like I said, different strokes for different folks. Just saying, folks are looking into that. Options to do sports med, EM via fellowship, urgent care, hospitalist, etc. that doesn't lend to traditional clinic.

The trick, in the end, is to do what makes you happy - not so much the $$ - that will come (or go).

Eat what you kill in its purest form in PP anesthesia is probably most productive.
 
Agree with bronx.

I'd even throw in FM. The job market is incredible with anesthesia-pay depending on type of practice and location, no/minimal stress, no call, 4-4.5 day work weeks, no weekends, good vacation time off.
Yeah, you'd be surprised at some of the offers primary care positions are getting nowadays. I'm finishing up IM, and we get inundated with outpatient job offers that are anywhere from 200-300k for 40 hour jobs. Big cities tend to be 180-200 but if you go out like 30-40 minutes, you're looking at 250+.

Honestly, the overall trend I'm seeing across all fields in medicine is that starting job offers are falling closer together. There are still highs and lows, but you don't see the differences you saw 5 years ago where radiologists fresh out of residency were getting 350k on average and primary care was getting 150k.
 
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The question is how many patients do you have to see during those 8 hours, to get that money? ;)

I would cut my wrists if I had to see 30 sick adults every day.
 
The question is how many patients do you have to see during those 8 hours, to get that money? ;)

I would cut my wrists if I had to see 30 sick adults every day.
Average is probably 25. It sounds worse than it is. You deal with one problem per visit. Half of the patients you see are easy as hell. In and out in 7 minutes. Either way, the point isn't what individuals like or don't like. Plenty of people would cut their wrists doing anesthesia. The point is that there is a trend towards parity in pay - it's not there yet but it's moving in that direction.
 
Let me explain you "parity of pay" in the future: we will all be paid less (regardless of specialty), as worker drones of management companies, not independent professionals. On the other hand, we will still have most of the liability. It's a win-win... for them; heads we win, tails you lose, but anyway we skim 30-40% of your profits.

Until some of us create a Vanguard-type of management company, this will just get worse. You can run (into another specialty), but you can't hide; sooner or later, Dr. will mean drone, not doctor. Management companies are already beginning to proliferate in internal medicine, too, so I would not consider that a safe haven.
 
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Let me explain you "parity of pay" in the future: we will all be paid less (regardless of specialty), as worker drones of management companies, not independent professionals. On the other hand, we will still have most of the liability. It's a win-win... for them; heads I win, tails you lose.
For the most part, I agree. However, unless they make it a legal decree to work for either the government or a health care corporation, certain fields can still survive independently - dermatology, plastics, and direct-payment primary care.
 
Then when you are done your residency, you will NEVER find a job.

I'm glad you guys on SDN post about it, otherwise I'd probably end up disappointed going into anesthesia. The work sounds interesting to me, but not if I rarely get to do anything.
 
At my place the CRNAs don't do any blocks, epidurals, etc. or lines more than an IV, and rarely IVs either. If they don't like it, they can find another job. Of course we pay OK, have no call/weekends and have 3 12s as full time, so they just put the tube in the hole and get over it.
 
At my place the CRNAs don't do any blocks, epidurals, etc. or lines more than an IV, and rarely IVs either. If they don't like it, they can find another job. Of course we pay OK, have no call/weekends and have 3 12s as full time, so they just put the tube in the hole and get over it.

I'm glad to hear that. I think that despite Blade's videos of CRNA's from UC Davis and everything, anesthesia is still a pretty good job. I know $250k is lower than the norm now but if that's the end of the world then anesthesia is still better than being a paper pusher or something. It seems like mostly all new graduates get some type of employment after residency as well. I could just be wearing rose colored glasses though, I am just trying to find a specialty for myself.
 
I'm glad to hear that. I think that despite Blade's videos of CRNA's from UC Davis and everything, anesthesia is still a pretty good job. I know $250k is lower than the norm now but if that's the end of the world then anesthesia is still better than being a paper pusher or something. It seems like mostly all new graduates get some type of employment after residency as well. I could just be wearing rose colored glasses though, I am just trying to find a specialty for myself.

Dude why would you do anesthesia for 250 for weekend coverage and call? You can go into another field without call for 250...

Plus, don't you know that anesthesia residency positions recently got expanded by a few hundred spots? Good luck finding a job when you're done esp. since the job market isn't that great even now.
 
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Dude why would you do anesthesia for 250 for weekend coverage and call? You can go into another field without call for 250...

Plus, don't you know that anesthesia residency positions recently got expanded by a few hundred spots? Good luck finding a job when you're done esp. since the job market isn't that great even now.

The work seems pretty cool to me. But I realize there are specialties that will probably have better rewards. It would suck to take anesthesia call for only $250k. So I see some of the doom and gloom. But there still seems to be jobs paying way better than $250k.
 
The work seems pretty cool to me. But I realize there are specialties that will probably have better rewards. It would suck to take anesthesia call for only $250k. So I see some of the doom and gloom. But there still seems to be jobs paying way better than $250k.

For now...
 
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Except that it's dying a fast death, as AMCs take over. Let's talk in 5 years.

No, I get that. I meant as of now. Sorry, was typing in a rush and I guess didn't clarify.

Anesthesia ain't a ROAD specialty in training and it sure as hell won't be out in practice. Supervise the **** out of CRNAs who want nothing more than you to leave them the **** alone, to sign the chart, and bow out of the case after the tube is through the cords. Then bail them out when **** hits the fan and take all the liability with any potential issues that may arise. Oh, and take call? :laugh:

Eat-what-you-kill is the BEST type of practice at this time, but I do know it's going away as well. These groups run lean and mean, and eventually they'll sell out too.
 
The question is how many patients do you have to see during those 8 hours, to get that money? ;)

I would cut my wrists if I had to see 30 sick adults every day.

Don't think those goobers be seeing 30 sickies/day.
 
Supervise the **** out of CRNAs who want nothing more than you to leave them the **** alone, to sign the chart, and bow out of the case after the tube is through the cords. Then bail them out when **** hits the fan and take all the liability with any potential issues that may arise. Oh, and take call? :laugh:

You're right. Except they don't really even want you there when they put the tube in. Many will play games with you when you're new to see how much they can get away with. And if the partners/decision-makers don't have your back, good luck trying to change anything.

I work for a hospital-owned group. I get paid a lot for the amount of work I do. I have a very good lifestyle. Yet, I'm still waiting for the dam to break. And living lean. Starting MBA school in less than 4 weeks. Turning 38 in the same timeframe.
 
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From conversations from various CRNAs, that is exactly the situation. I kid you not. They don't want you there. They don't believe they need you at all, until something happens, then come save them.
 
From conversations from various CRNAs, that is exactly the situation. I kid you not. They don't want you there. They don't believe they need you at all, until something happens, then come save them.

Very true. To a CRNA, you are superfluous.
 
Damn. I've been interested in peds anesthesia but I don't really have any doors closed to me. I've always thought this was the field for me but the way you guys talk about it, seems like I should be somewhere else.
 
There is a solution... Form a union!
Now that most anesthesiologists are employed and not business owners it is possible to get unionized without breaking the law.
 
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I was well warned of the future of anesthesiology, and I did it anyway. I have a close friend from high school who now works as physician recruiter, who painted a dismal projection of a saturated job market with a flood of heavily indebted applicants applying for salaries in the low 200's. Maybe they're right. Maybe the coming years will prove me to be foolish, but I had a previous career where I competed in a really tight job market, and I survived. It was tough, but I pulled it off.

At the end of the day, I found it to a field of study that I actively wanted learn about, and a skill set that I wanted. I was also interested in some IM subspecialties, like ID, cards EP, and also in Emergency Med. I wasn't sure I had the stamina to push hard all the way to get the EP fellowship (nor am I immortal), and primary care/hospitalist IM was not what I wanted to do with my life.

I found EM to be a continually futile push against an inexorable flood of human misery, and I wearied of the sort of interactions the bread and butter stuff forces you to have with patients. Mostly what got to me was the sad ordinary situations, like having to work up a poorly informed guy with a chronic non emergent problem, and having to order enough expensive tests to ruin his next few months financially, just to satisfy the algorithm. I found myself really looking forward to the end of the shift. Not a good way to start a career. Surgery was fun, but kind of a grind once the initial thrill wore off. OB kind of sucked. Peds, good to know, not that interesting to me. Psych came pretty naturally to me, but frankly, I tend to be a physically active person, which ultimately killed rads for me too. Things not working out with Rads was kind of a tragedy, since we were a good match, according to those personality tests. Family Med? Actually a really nice rotation in med school, but long term... Meh. Ophthalmology: Definitely cool, like the physics, the gadgets. Really a field for people with better fine motor skills than me. You have to accept your limitations sometimes. Forensic Path: Super interesting, honestly pretty fun in a macabre way, but... the STENCH of a bloater... Damn. No.

So why anesthesiology? Really it all started in second year pharm class, learning about the drugs. Definitely interesting, if you have any kind of imagination. I found myself really curious on surgery and OB, wanting to ask questions of the anesthetist or anesthesiologist. I did a rotation, and I liked the workflow, and the thought process that went into planning and performing cases. I liked the physics and chemistry of the machine, the physiology of the heart, lungs and brain. I still do, and I want to learn more about it.

I can appreciate the perspectives voiced in this forum, and recognize that they come from experience. On the other hand, anesthesiology seems like a fair opportunity to work hard and make a decent living, probably not nearly the way it once was, but I think that is true of medicine as a field in general. At the very least, the 3 years of anesthesia training and then critical care seem like a pretty good way to live out the next stretch of my life.
 
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I have a close friend from high school who now works as physician recruiter, who painted a dismal projection of a saturated job market with a flood of heavily indebted applicants applying for salaries in the low 200's.

What I think a lot of people who are accepting this "fact" are not realizing is that there is a lot of money in anesthesia still. And there's going to be a lot of money in anesthesia for the foreseeable future. But with this mentality we're going to have the 90's all over again where anesthesiologists were accepting salaries that were far below their market value, sometimes in the low 100's, because of some false notion that this was all there was for them. Meanwhile the guys holding the contracts were siphoning off of everyone's hard work and were pulling 7 figure incomes themselves.

We have two neurosurgery groups in town. One of them has 3 partners. The other one has nine. Imagine if the 9-partner group demanded an exclusive contract at our hospital. This would not be tolerated by anyone, including the courts. What happens is that the 3-partner group brings actually more business than the 9-partner group to our hospital. They still share call 25% and 75%. And this is split up between the two hospitals in our town. This is negotiated with hospital administrators, who actually have to administrate, and yes it can sometimes get contentious.

The real problem is the exclusive contract that limits fair market competition. Why this is tolerated in our field in this day and age is beyond me. It actually stifles competitive practices and drives the cost of care up as we're seeing happening with more and more AMCs and big private practice groups entrench themselves in certain geographic areas. I'll say this again, but I think the Hyde case in 1984 that upheld exclusive contracts not considering it tying and therefore not a violation of the Sherman anti-trust laws could probably be successfully revisited. Were that the case, you would not have these fatcat greedy grayhairs creating topheavy practices where a few "partners" or "chiefs officers" or whatever you want to call are forcing you to take a ****ty salary and making a ton of money on the backs of the hard work of the anesthesiologists on the front lines.

Unless and until this mentality that you have to simply accept whatever they offer you, though, the situation you describe above in your post will continue. And it will continue until we are in a situation like the 1990's where no one is going into anesthesiology residency again. If that becomes case the CRNAs will clearly win.
 
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I tried a few times to stop reading this board because of all of the "doom and gloom"- I really wanted to do anesthesiology and it would give me palpitations every time I visited. But now that I've committed I'm really glad I kept reading because it forced me to think through all of these worst-case scenarios, and in the end I still found I wanted to do it.
 
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Will talk how glad you still are once you become an attending. Until then, everything is rosy.
 
Dude why would you do anesthesia for 250 for weekend coverage and call? You can go into another field without call for 250...

Plus, don't you know that anesthesia residency positions recently got expanded by a few hundred spots? Good luck finding a job when you're done esp. since the job market isn't that great even now.

2012: 1,585 anesthesia grads
2007: 1,479 anesthesia grads

source: https://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/tabi...GraduateMedicalEducationDataResourceBook.aspx
 
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