the god delusion

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markglt

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anybody read this book and have any thoughts on it?
another random question, why do a lot of paranoid schizophrenics think they are god or jesus or have these intense religous beliefs that obviously are not possible...is there a god center up there fueled by too much dopamine?

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This is totally just theory but I have a believe the hard wiring of the human brain, if decoded will show the COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUSNESS as described by Jung, but further elaborated by Joseph Campbell to be in there somewhere.

I mean hey, every culture and generation has its heroes and villians that work off the same basic themes. It's to the point where IMHO it's likely that these same basic themes are encoded into us, just that we haven't found the code yet.

Take for example PTSD and phobia. People if almost killed by an electrical socket are less likely to have a PTSD or phobic reaction to a socket vs someone being bitten by an animal. There's already evidence of hard wiring already in the brain that allows one to remember animals better.

The human brain is being mapped (I'm talking the neural tracts, not the gross structures). Hopefully maybe then this will yield some data into this.

But getting back to your original question, I believe God and the desire to believe in something bigger is hard wired into us.
 
I agree with Whopper, sort of.
Here's my atheistic theory on the subject of the universality of the search for God:

It's been my contention for some time that humans, as most social animals, are wired to be very aware of social hierarchies and social status - probably almost the same wiring as chimps. This constant searching for "Who is the present alpha?" and "Where am I in the hierarchy?" is probably a very powerful drive among social animals with multiple circuits involved. Among humans, most individuals recognize that even the more dominant members of the group have no special powers. If you have a drive to find the "alpha," the "powerful one," but you realize that all members of your species fall short of that ideal, you have an unfulfilled drive - and that's very uncomfortable. So what do you do? You invent an Alpha, a God.
This would also explain why the nature of the idea of God has become more complex and more subtle as civilization has become more complicated.
That's why Voltaire was right, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him." He doesn't. We did.

Don't worry. I don't expect many to agree with this theory.
 
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I agree with Whopper, sort of.
Here's my atheistic theory on the subject of the universality of the search for God:

It's been my contention for some time that humans, as most social animals, are wired to be very aware of social hierarchies and social status - probably almost the same wiring as chimps. This constant searching for "Who is the present alpha?" and "Where am I in the hierarchy?" is probably a very powerful drive among social animals with multiple circuits involved. Among humans, most individuals recognize that even the more dominant members of the group have no special powers. If you have a drive to find the "alpha," the "powerful one," but you realize that all members of your species fall short of that ideal, you have an unfulfilled drive - and that's very uncomfortable. So what do you do? You invent an Alpha, a God.
This would also explain why the nature of the idea of God has become more complex and more subtle as civilization has become more complicated.
That's why Voltaire was right, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him." He doesn't. We did.

Don't worry. I don't expect many to agree with this theory.
It does fit with the Evangelical view of God, fear that then demands structural and institutional obedience. The whole idea of "you can't know God's mind, but your pastor can tell you so you don't have to worry about it."

There are as many different beliefs abot God/gods as there are people, some are more colntrolling than others.
 
yes but what about the paranoid schizophrenics, why do they harp on this theme, it seems that a lot of delusional paranoid schizophrenics (the ones i've met), have delusions revolving around some aspect of religion.

has anyone read the book: the god delusion?...worth buying?
 
I'd read it but I already got too many books to read in my curriculum and schedule.

If you have a drive to find the "alpha," the "powerful one," but you realize that all members of your species fall short of that ideal, you have an unfulfilled drive - and that's very uncomfortable. So what do you do? You invent an Alpha, a God.

A professor of mine, who also happened to be an atheist came up with an evolutionary psychology theory that perhaps the idea of a God is hard wired into us from an evolutionary basis because it became the basis of several societies starting with neolithic cavemen. Just his theory, but it makes sense. Doesn't seem that your idea is far off.
 
yes but what about the paranoid schizophrenics, why do they harp on this theme, it seems that a lot of delusional paranoid schizophrenics (the ones i've met), have delusions revolving around some aspect of religion.

has anyone read the book: the god delusion?...worth buying?

Haven't read it, sorry.
But in my little theory, it's just a hop, skip, and a jump from the normal drive to the delusion. Part of the social order of the hierarchical society, chimps or humans, is the drive to be as far up the scale as you can safely manage. If you are not part of the top of the hierarchy, you want to be there via your own actions or through association with the top folks (power is the ultimate aphrodisiac). Many animals will attempt to associate with (and receive the privileges from) members significantly further up the hierarchy through ingratiating behavior (grooming, feeding, sex) then they could reasonably attain on their own. If you damage the part of the brain that assesses my current status and my chances of moving to the top (vs. getting the stuffing beat out of me), then there are no brakes on the drive to be at the top - and you declare that you are and act as though you are. I think a chimp doing this would likely get beaten until he stopped or died, or get banished. Sometimes a youngster (or obvious weakling) doing this is tolerated because he presents no real threat to the alpha.

If an obviously deluded member of the society begins acting as though he is King, he may be tolerated by those truly in power because acting as though he is not a threat actually helps cement their status. As in, "Ha, ha, ha. Look how silly and entertaining he is. I'm so powerful that I do not have to kill him, since it is clear he could never remove me from power." Classic literature has many fools that are permitted to mock the King. Now, we have late night TV hosts.

It's very common for grandiose individuals (whether they think they're a sort of God or not) to introduce themselves to the psychiatrist in some form of a rant involving, "Oh, Hello, Doctor. You know, I'm a doctor, too. A psychiatrist and a psychologist...." Immediately declaring that they are at the top of this particular hierarchy. If the subject of the law comes up, they are either lawyers or judges. If religion comes up, they are priests/ministers, God Himself, or somehow related ("I'm the second Son. The first Son came to earth, but I'm the Son in the sky.")

Interestingly, never had one declare himself to be a Rabbi.
Probably because anyone with a delusion that he is a Rabbi can see both sides of the argument.
 
I'd read it but I already got too many books to read in my curriculum and schedule.



A professor of mine, who also happened to be an atheist came up with an evolutionary psychology theory that perhaps the idea of a God is hard wired into us from an evolutionary basis because it became the basis of several societies starting with neolithic cavemen. Just his theory, but it makes sense. Doesn't seem that your idea is far off.

Just because the concept of God or spirituality is hard wired in our brains doesn't negate its existence.

An evolutionary explanation for why most cultures have a concept of God or some type of higher power is intriguing. IMO, however, given that the hypothesis lacks testability or falsibiability, it has some major flaws. Basically, if one comes from the view point that there is no god or higher power, just about anyone can come up with a reasonable explanation that explains why having a belief in god has an advantage to the species.

I fully support evolution and believe that thinking about some of our behaviors in evolutionary terms can be beneficial. However, it quickly breaks down when one tries to use it to explain all aspects of existence and reaches into areas that science was not meant to answer.
 
As an evolutionary biologist and a deeply religious guy, I actually haven't thought about this question that much. Which cracks me up. I also think Dawkins is a hack, and would gladly tell him this to his face. I've certainly done it in a couple of national venues. He and PZ Meyers do more damage to the pro-evolution movement than they benefit it. Their constant political and religious attacks are a) stupid b) polarizing c) unsupported by evolution and d) counterproductive.

As a primatologist, my area of specialization is/was/(will be when i work less than 80) how the self-interested individual leads to a cooperative society. Cooperation is thought to be built upon the mechanism of reciprocal altruism. I help you because I know you'll help me. Groups that don't have a high degree of reciprocal altruism don't develop socially complex behaviors. Zebra herds, for instance, not terribly complex socially. They all eat sleep and run away from predators together, but that's about it. Safety in numbers is more or less the limit.

Then there are certain monkey groups where there is some degree of this. Sometimes unrelated males form alliances to enable one to get to Alpha. He takes first pick of the women, but lets his beta have a few. Or females take turns doing all the babysitting while they rest so the others (and they in turn) can be more productive during feeding time. For a minimal loss in rest they all gain substantially in feeding efficiency.

This requires that the effort involved is shared. Unfortunately, or whatever, a system like this can tolerate a certain amount of 'cheating' or asymmetric benefit as long as all the individuals continue to benefit to some degree or another. i.e. if increased benefit from collaboration outweighs increased cost from cheaters, the system will continue to benefit.

Lets turn to hunting briefly. Its well publicized that chimps hunt. It's a little less publicized that capuchin monkeys hunt as well. Capuchins are the monkeys seen in indiana jones, marcel on friends, or pretty much anytime you see a cute little monkey with a darker head than face doing something cute on TV. One thing that's been observed is that while chimps do hunt collaboratively, the spoils are anything but. Males do collaborate on the hunt. And then they fight like crazy people over the victim. Alpha has the best chance of actually eating the kill (which is always tiny compared to the chimp). But they all have a chance. So hunting occurs, despite asymmetric benefits.

Capuchins on the other hand often hunt prey much larger than themselves, require a higher degree of cooperation. They also are much more 'fair' in their distribution of the spoils, with almost always all of the involved monkeys sharing. It should come as no surprise, then, that they get about 3x as much of their food from hunts than do chimps.

Capuchin 'fairness' is gaining increasing awareness. Some of the more intriguing experiments with them involve 'money' or asymmetric benefit for same work done. In some experiments, some capuchins receive more money than others, which can then be exchanged (for the same price regardless of one's 'allowance') for treats. They revolt under such a system. In another type of experiment, for the same task completed, some receive more treats than others. Again, they all revolt and refuse to participate. Interestingly, all of them do, even the ones getting the unfair benefit.

As an interesting side note, in the 'money' system, female capuchins learned that they could offer males sex for some coinage. Yes, my friends, whoring probably is the world's oldest profession.

A sense of 'fairness' could lead to less cheating, and more efficiency, for a group. Now, it's important to be very careful here lest we invoke 'group selection' which makes me puke. Seriously. Someone brought it up after a seminar and I puked all over their shoes. And I swear it had nothing to do with the three guinesses i'd just drank.

While the whole group would do better, the important thing is that the individuals involved would do better. The most likely scenarios are that a) 'cheaters', those who didn't have the 'fairness trait', would be pushed out of the group, or b) that 'cheaters' wouldn't be involved in the efficiency increasing collaborative activities, e.g. not allowed to participate in the hunt or in the babysitting pool. Thus, 'non-cheaters', equipped with a sense of 'fairness', would tend to do better because of this higher efficiency in their groups, than 'non-cheaters'

In other words, 'I'll work/share/cooperate with you, because you'll do the same for me' would evolve into 'We'll share equitably and work together as hard as we both can because its right'. This would be enforced and selected for because 'I can't stand you being a part of my group because you're not a nice person/monkey' would be a corollary.

One of the defining hallmarks of religion is that it teaches right from wrong, and that you are held accountable for your rightness or wrongness. It could have thus arisen from the ability to ask 'why is this right? why is that wrong?' and 'I know that fairness is right, and that that's how I should be, but what happens if I'm not?' As the 'unfair' would be punished by the group, and thus do worse as individuals, the 'fair' might say 'see that's proof that being unfair is wrong. God must be punishing them'. Which is getting causality exactly wrong, but our brains are very, very good at that.

You can also add the slightly overactive causality detection ability of intelligent animals into this whole discussion, which I just briefly touched upon in the preceding paragraph. But this is already long enough as it is.

Did i mention that, to quote Limp Bizkit, Dawkins should shove it up is yeah?
 
bravo kugel, bravo. i like the way you think.
 
As an evolutionary biologist
I LOVE that. If I wasn't in medicine....
and a deeply religious guy, I actually haven't thought about this question that much. Which cracks me up. I also think Dawkins is a hack, and would gladly tell him this to his face. I've certainly done it in a couple of national venues. He and PZ Meyers do more damage to the pro-evolution movement than they benefit it. Their constant political and religious attacks are a) stupid b) polarizing c) unsupported by evolution and d) counterproductive.
True. Now, they still get support from most supporters because the fundies are seen as even nuttier and more harmful.
..While the whole group would do better, the important thing is that the individuals involved would do better.
In the short run, anyway.
The most likely scenarios are that a) 'cheaters', those who didn't have the 'fairness trait', would be pushed out of the group, or b) that 'cheaters' wouldn't be involved in the efficiency increasing collaborative activities, e.g. not allowed to participate in the hunt or in the babysitting pool. Thus, 'non-cheaters', equipped with a sense of 'fairness', would tend to do better because of this higher efficiency in their groups, than 'non-cheaters'
The Evolutionary trend would go that direction, if that's where the competitive advantage is. So for a population where cooperation is beneficial, it is also self-selecting.
One of the defining hallmarks of religion is that it teaches right from wrong, and that you are held accountable for your rightness or wrongness. It could have thus arisen from the ability to ask 'why is this right? why is that wrong?' and 'I know that fairness is right, and that that's how I should be, but what happens if I'm not?' As the 'unfair' would be punished by the group, and thus do worse as individuals, the 'fair' might say 'see that's proof that being unfair is wrong. God must be punishing them'. Which is getting causality exactly wrong, but our brains are very, very good at that.
And in other words, that mechanism is an extra protection against cheaters, especially in a society so complex that the cheaters are harder to find or punish.
 
Just because the concept of God or spirituality is hard wired in our brains doesn't negate its existence.

entirely true.
In fact, how could God be sure that everyone of his sentient creations inherently knows of His existence unless He hard-wires in the concept. If you presume the presence of a god, then the hard-wiring only makes sense.

I never meant that my theory argues against God or in favor of atheism. Just that it is a theory which could account for the universality of god concepts among humans without assuming the presence of an actual god.
 
I LOVE that. If I wasn't in medicine...

It's tough, I'll tell you that much. For one thing, the kinds of stuff you get to do when you can't take large amts of time off to do a study in the wild, is stuff it's very very hard to get paid for. For another, as you know, the time demands of medicine are ugly. I havent done much but be able to publish/present three abstracts. Another abstract will hopefully be presented next year. The papers are...I'm not even going to say still being written. And that doesn't cover the 5 papers I'd already outlined, done the equations for (i do mathematical modelling), and mostly done data gathering on lol. I've been tempted to take a sabbatical or a year off from med school, but it's just not worth it. If I don't get a full paper published soon, I'm going to start referring to myself as a former evolutionary biologist.
 
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It's tough, I'll tell you that much. For one thing, the kinds of stuff you get to do when you can't take large amts of time off to do a study in the wild, is stuff it's very very hard to get paid for. For another, as you know, the time demands of medicine are ugly. I havent done much but be able to publish/present three abstracts. Another abstract will hopefully be presented next year. The papers are...I'm not even going to say still being written. And that doesn't cover the 5 papers I'd already outlined, done the equations for (i do mathematical modelling), and mostly done data gathering on lol. I've been tempted to take a sabbatical or a year off from med school, but it's just not worth it. If I don't get a full paper published soon, I'm going to start referring to myself as a former evolutionary biologist.
I know. I took a hard look at the field, and really concluded that it was to tough to find a niche, compared to Medicine. Still, it is what I love to read about, when I'm not reading medicine.

And I throw my enery into science education instead. The level of knowledge, even of the basics, is abysmal.
 
Just because the concept of God or spirituality is hard wired in our brains doesn't negate its existence.

Which is a point he brought up. His comment was within a larger context. He argued that in his opinion, spirituality and beliefs in the metaphysical are hard wired in our brains as evidenced by people with temporal lobe seizures sometimes being hyperreligious.

His argument though was not for or against religion. The guy was open minded and conscientious enough to know he was talking to a crowd of various beliefs and respected all of them.

He mentioned that just as much as an atheist could argue that it's all a product of evolutioary psychology--the more devout would have been more favored in society, someone could also argue that the presence of hard wiring in the brain for spiritual beliefs supports that spiritual beliefs (or at least beliefs on that order) are part of our existence as human beings.
 
Which is a point he brought up. His comment was within a larger context. He argued that in his opinion, spirituality and beliefs in the metaphysical are hard wired in our brains as evidenced by people with temporal lobe seizures sometimes being hyperreligious.

His argument though was not for or against religion. The guy was open minded and conscientious enough to know he was talking to a crowd of various beliefs and respected all of them.

He mentioned that just as much as an atheist could argue that it's all a product of evolutioary psychology--the more devout would have been more favored in society, someone could also argue that the presence of hard wiring in the brain for spiritual beliefs supports that spiritual beliefs (or at least beliefs on that order) are part of our existence as human beings.

Groovy! :D
 
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Which is a point he brought up. His comment was within a larger context. He argued that in his opinion, spirituality and beliefs in the metaphysical are hard wired in our brains as evidenced by people with temporal lobe seizures sometimes being hyperreligious.

His argument though was not for or against religion. The guy was open minded and conscientious enough to know he was talking to a crowd of various beliefs and respected all of them.

He mentioned that just as much as an atheist could argue that it's all a product of evolutioary psychology--the more devout would have been more favored in society, someone could also argue that the presence of hard wiring in the brain for spiritual beliefs supports that spiritual beliefs (or at least beliefs on that order) are part of our existence as human beings.

Exactly--why should a brain be "hard wired" to detect something that doesn't exist?

Just asking...
 
Exactly--why should a brain be "hard wired" to detect something that doesn't exist?

Just asking...

Because it isnt detecting?

Because its evolutionarily advantageous to believe in god? It gives meaning to life, hope, opium for the masses?

We're hard wired for a lot of odd things... hypnogogic/hypnopompic hallucinations and such....

But on this topic - theres that neuroscientist that recorded her perceptions during a CVA, noting the loss off perception of the self vs. other (i think her words were, "I couldnt tell where my hand ended and the wall began").... the same perception that's lost when a Buddhist monk meditates....when a specific part of the brain is activated, as per the research in some med school in Philadelphia.

So if "being at one with the universe" can be experienced by meditiating, or by stroking out, it's likely neurological, not divine.
 
Because it isnt detecting?
So if "being at one with the universe" can be experienced by meditiating, or by stroking out, it's likely neurological, not divine.

You can also stimulate auditory hallucinations without any real auditory stimulus. Would this negate the reality of actually hearing audible vibrations?
 
Because it isnt detecting
But on this topic - theres that neuroscientist that recorded her perceptions during a CVA, noting the loss off perception of the self vs. other (i think her words were, "I couldnt tell where my hand ended and the wall began").... the same perception that's lost when a Buddhist monk meditates....when a specific part of the brain is activated, as per the research in some med school in Philadelphia.

So if "being at one with the universe" can be experienced by meditiating, or by stroking out, it's likely neurological, not divine.

So, by your logic, if someone sees lights that are triggered by a seizure or from surgery, does that mean light does not exist?
 
You can also stimulate auditory hallucinations without any real auditory stimulus. Would this negate the reality of actually hearing audible vibrations?

LOL, I put my post in right about the same time and didn't mean to repeat your point! :D
 
You can also stimulate auditory hallucinations without any real auditory stimulus. Would this negate the reality of actually hearing audible vibrations?

hmmm good point.

A commonly used argument for the inconsistency of religious experience is that our five senses and reasoning ability aren't the modes by which the experience presents itself. One needs the sixth sense and faith... that sort of thing. But there is nothing which unquestionably corresponds to reality which is interpreted by the sixth sense and faith.

While we know that our perceptions can be activated by a "false" stimulus as well as a "true" one, we don't know for certain that our "higher" senses can be activated by a true stimulus, only a false one.

While this doesnt make religious experience categorically unreal, it suggests that it CAN be, that it does not have to be real.

I know its a weak argument, but i can't seem to explain what I mean.
 
But then again, if our brains are hard-wired for this stuff... maybe the assumption that our physical bodies can't perceive spiritual input is a shortsighted one.
 
Might have to check out this book...interesting.

That being said, to me, it's a mute point. I think you can argue all day about whether or not religions are valid. But, in the end, the universe had to come from somewhere. The Big Bang may have started as an infintesimal point, but where did that point come from? If we discover that answer, then where did THAT come from? You can keep going back in the cycle of creation, but eventually, you must hit the Source.

Either way, we'll find out in ~50 more years (less for some of us...more for others).
 
Might have to check out this book...interesting.

That being said, to me, it's a mute point. I think you can argue all day about whether or not religions are valid. But, in the end, the universe had to come from somewhere. The Big Bang may have started as an infintesimal point, but where did that point come from? If we discover that answer, then where did THAT come from? You can keep going back in the cycle of creation, but eventually, you must hit the Source.

Either way, we'll find out in ~50 more years (less for some of us...more for others).
[pedantic rant]
Aaaghhhh! MOOT point. MOOT POINT!
[/pedantic rant]

(And it's not a moot point. Dawkins is arguing from his perspective that, basically, if a scientific explanation can be found for human religious experience, then religion is neither true nor necessary. He deserves his say, and is polite about it--yet many of us might disagree. I think I'd better actually read the book before I say anything more.)
 
Might have to check out this book...interesting.

That being said, to me, it's a mute point. I think you can argue all day about whether or not religions are valid. But, in the end, the universe had to come from somewhere. The Big Bang may have started as an infintesimal point, but where did that point come from? If we discover that answer, then where did THAT come from? You can keep going back in the cycle of creation, but eventually, you must hit the Source.

Either way, we'll find out in ~50 more years (less for some of us...more for others).

Is it a true notion that when we die, all shall be revealed?
 
He mentioned that just as much as an atheist could argue that it's all a product of evolutioary psychology--the more devout would have been more favored in society, someone could also argue that the presence of hard wiring in the brain for spiritual beliefs supports that spiritual beliefs (or at least beliefs on that order) are part of our existence as human beings.

IMHO, it is ultimately the burden of the proponent of either theory to prove its theory is correct. The inability of the proponent of one side of the debate to prove convincingly the correctness of his/her position does not prove the correctness of the other side's argument. The inability to prove what occurred just prior to the Big Bang does not prove the existence of God any more than it proves the existence of the tooth fairy.

In the end, there may be things beyond our comprehension. That lack of comprehension proves nothing.
 
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Might have to check out this book...interesting.

That being said, to me, it's a mute point. I think you can argue all day about whether or not religions are valid. But, in the end, the universe had to come from somewhere. The Big Bang may have started as an infintesimal point, but where did that point come from? If we discover that answer, then where did THAT come from? You can keep going back in the cycle of creation, but eventually, you must hit the Source.

Either way, we'll find out in ~50 more years (less for some of us...more for others).

moot not mute. It is a moot point. And "moot" has two definitions (silly English) - 1. a point that is worth debating 2. a point that has been debated and decided.

So which is it?

"the universe had to come from somewhere" - why is that? why does it HAVE to come from somewhere. Why cant it just be? How do you know the universe even exists?

"you keep going back... hit the Source" - this same point is made by Dawkins. I believe he argues that this line of reasoning only demonstrates how the existence of God is even MORE improbable, even less likely to hit an end - the Source as you call it. And in my estimation, all you've done is applied the Problem of Infinite Regress to the issue, making it clear as mud.

"we'll find out..." - is that so? You've died before, and know that all shall be revealed? How do you know? I think it's more likely that when you die - you die. The alternative requires too many preconditions to be the case. And events with more preconditions are less likely to take place - whether its a huge get-together, or the Harmonic Convergence of Planets.

Bah! you can't go positing these loaded debatable statements and then saying they are not up for debate.
 
IMHO, it is ultimately the burden of the proponent of either theory to prove its theory is correct. The inability of the proponent of one side of the debate to prove convincingly the correctness of his/her position does not prove the correctness of the other side's argument. The inability to prove what occurred just prior to the Big Bang does not prove the existence of God any more than it proves the existence of the tooth fairy.

In the end, there may things beyond our comprehension. That lack of comprehension proves nothing.

IMHO your HO is the way philosophical problems must be tackled. It seems that the theist/creationist side of the argument almost always resorts to demanding negative proof. They dance away thinking they've won, while the opposition stands there scratching their head feeling like theyve just argued with a three year old.
 
anybody read this book and have any thoughts on it?
another random question, why do a lot of paranoid schizophrenics think they are god or jesus or have these intense religous beliefs that obviously are not possible...is there a god center up there fueled by too much dopamine?


I actually have yet to meet someone claiming to be God or Jesus. I did meet the general of God's personal army on Earth sent to prepare the way for Jesus. And I had a colleague who met a direct descendant of the Egyptian sun god Ra, but I never had the pleasure of meeting a divinity myself. I wonder how common that particular delusion really is? (I'm sure I could look it up and find out if I really cared to) :)
 
K.... so....

A delusion is a false fixed belief, right? And a belief that is shared by the person's culture or religion doesn't count as a delusion - because we said so.

Why can't it count in some way. Isn't it possible that the neural networks which control religious belief are affected in psychosis? Especially since, as the OP noted, common delusions are of a religious nature?

It's unlikely that billions of people share the same delusion, but then there are billions of definitions of God. So, we really aren't sharing a delusion per se.

Maybe some are more deluded than others, let's call them fanatics.

What about quality of life and GAF? There certainly are people who live a poor quality of life due to their religious beliefs, those that leave their families, commit suicide, or murder their own families, or even murder entire ethnic groups because their religion told them to. It happens every day.

Yeah, that's a bit overboard, but my point is - maybe there is something to the OPs question, and it's something that we don't really think about because of the caveat in the definition of delusion.
 
moot not mute. It is a moot point. And "moot" has two definitions (silly English) - 1. a point that is worth debating 2. a point that has been debated and decided.

So which is it?

"the universe had to come from somewhere" - why is that? why does it HAVE to come from somewhere. Why cant it just be? How do you know the universe even exists?

"you keep going back... hit the Source" - this same point is made by Dawkins. I believe he argues that this line of reasoning only demonstrates how the existence of God is even MORE improbable, even less likely to hit an end - the Source as you call it. And in my estimation, all you've done is applied the Problem of Infinite Regress to the issue, making it clear as mud.

"we'll find out..." - is that so? You've died before, and know that all shall be revealed? How do you know? I think it's more likely that when you die - you die. The alternative requires too many preconditions to be the case. And events with more preconditions are less likely to take place - whether its a huge get-together, or the Harmonic Convergence of Planets.

Bah! you can't go positing these loaded debatable statements and then saying they are not up for debate.

Sorry for the typo. Final tomorrow, and I'm typing fast. As far as definitions, I was using the 2nd one, but it could be either one for you...that's why I prefaced my comment with "To me...". I was just voicing my opinion...

When we die, we die. You're right. If there's nothing, we'll find out (sort of). If there's something we'll find out that too. I am, personally, inclined to believe in a Creator of some description, because I believe in the Problem of Infinite Regress. I believe that you can't make something from nothing. The universe, to me, must have had a beginning at some point. If is has "just always been," well, that just seems a bit silly to me.

Again, I'll say it...to me. You guys can feel free to debate my own personal beliefs all you want, but I've been over this a thousand times, and I know what I believe.
 
Again, I'll say it...to me. You guys can feel free to debate my own personal beliefs all you want, but I've been over this a thousand times, and I know what I believe.

Its not personal. We aren't debating what you believe, or whether you know what you believe. We're debating what is true, or real... whether you (or I) believe it or not.
 
I actually have yet to meet someone claiming to be God or Jesus. I did meet the general of God's personal army on Earth sent to prepare the way for Jesus. And I had a colleague who met a direct descendant of the Egyptian sun god Ra, but I never had the pleasure of meeting a divinity myself. I wonder how common that particular delusion really is? (I'm sure I could look it up and find out if I really cared to) :)

I actually had an attending once assert that he is seeing far fewer religious delusions--attributing this to the increased secularization of society as a whole. He notes that he runs across more delusions regarding [cough] tomcruise [/cough] communication with alien lifeforms however...
 
"...the pro-evolution movement..."

Now that is a hilarious reference! :laugh: I mean, damn, that's funny.
 
But, in the end, the universe had to come from somewhere... You can keep going back in the cycle of creation, but eventually, you must hit the Source.

This is an idea I debunked on my own when I was 12.

DID the universe have to come from somewhere?

Humans have learned to govern and gauge everything we do by time and cycles. We are born, we die. We each have a beginning and an end to our experience. We see people come into this world, and watch others leave it. Always a beginning and an end.

The problem comes when we impose this construct on the universe. We think it HAD to have a beginning. Remember that time is a construct we impose on our experience to help us make sense of it; because we can put a beginning to our "time"--say our first memory--we think all things must have had a beginning like ours.

This can be hard to get your head around because we are so governed by time and cycles and beginnings and endings, but for me it is just as easy to imagine that everything was always here in some form or another as it is to imagine there was some "Source" who/that started our universe at some finite point in "time".

A "Source" or creator is only necessary if we necessitate a beginning, a time when one moment there was nothing, and the next there was something. No beginning means no need for a creator or "Source".

That's the future folks. You heard it here first.
 
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My dynamic question is:

Why does this thread erupt right as so many of us are getting ready to head home for the holidays, only to have our grandparents chide us not for not going to church anymore and our parents cry because they don't want their future, unborn grandbabies to burn in hell because the ungrateful son they raised won't take them to church.

What, this isn't what your Christmas is like?

As I've disclosed before, I was teaching 2nd and 3rd graders Sunday school at a Baptist church and playing fretless bass for one of those "contemporary services" up until I left college for medical school. My wife has made the jump from "disinterested" to "militant atheist," and I've made the jump from "born again" to "in desperate need of sliding scale psychotherapy."



A related book (featured on Colbert, the exclusive provider of my book reviews nowadays, The Evolution of God)
 
Sorry for the typo. Final tomorrow, and I'm typing fast. As far as definitions, I was using the 2nd one, but it could be either one for you...that's why I prefaced my comment with "To me...". I was just voicing my opinion...

When we die, we die. You're right. If there's nothing, we'll find out (sort of). If there's something we'll find out that too. I am, personally, inclined to believe in a Creator of some description, because I believe in the Problem of Infinite Regress. I believe that you can't make something from nothing. The universe, to me, must have had a beginning at some point. If is has "just always been," well, that just seems a bit silly to me.

Again, I'll say it...to me. You guys can feel free to debate my own personal beliefs all you want, but I've been over this a thousand times, and I know what I believe.

Oh, and you dont get to "believe in" the Problem of Infinite Regress. Its called a PROBLEM for a reason. Arguments that fall into this, or are based on this, are either unprovable, or irrefutable. Either way, they are logically flawed or invalid and can not be used to further argumentation.

Along the line of what Indryd said. The idea that the universe has just always been (seeming silly to you) vs. the idea that it had a beginning. You, and many others have difficulty in conceptualizing things that you have not experienced. You have never experienced "infinite" That doesn't mean that it is silly.

When you present a position, try to come up with some logical arguments to support them. You can "believe" that one day aliens will return to earth and enslave all the humans and put the elephants in charge.

But on your own line of thinking... If something can not come from nothing, then where did God come from?
 
Its not personal. We aren't debating what you believe, or whether you know what you believe. We're debating what is true, or real... whether you (or I) believe it or not.

But there is no way to know this particular truth (at least not right now) so all we're doing is putting forth our own beliefs.
 
My dynamic question is:

Why does this thread erupt right as so many of us are getting ready to head home for the holidays, only to have our grandparents chide us not for not going to church anymore and our parents cry because they don't want their future, unborn grandbabies to burn in hell because the ungrateful son they raised won't take them to church.

What, this isn't what your Christmas is like?

As I've disclosed before, I was teaching 2nd and 3rd graders Sunday school at a Baptist church and playing fretless bass for one of those "contemporary services" up until I left college for medical school. My wife has made the jump from "disinterested" to "militant atheist," and I've made the jump from "born again" to "in desperate need of sliding scale psychotherapy."



A related book (featured on Colbert, the exclusive provider of my book reviews nowadays, The Evolution of God)

You mean Saturnalia and the Winter Solstice? One of the biggest Pagan festivals of the year? Where they cut down an evergreen tree and bring it indoors and decorate it? Where friends exchanged gifts, and when even the slaves were allowed to eat, drink, and be merry? :smuggrin:
 
Oh, and you dont get to "believe in" the Problem of Infinite Regress. Its called a PROBLEM for a reason. Arguments that fall into this, or are based on this, are either unprovable, or irrefutable. Either way, they are logically flawed or invalid and can not be used to further argumentation.

Along the line of what Indryd said. The idea that the universe has just always been (seeming silly to you) vs. the idea that it had a beginning. You, and many others have difficulty in conceptualizing things that you have not experienced. You have never experienced "infinite" That doesn't mean that it is silly.

When you present a position, try to come up with some logical arguments to support them. You can "believe" that one day aliens will return to earth and enslave all the humans and put the elephants in charge.

But on your own line of thinking... If something can not come from nothing, then where did God come from?

I am perfectly capable of dealing with a universe infinite in time, I just rejected it. People once believed that the Universe was also infinite in size, but that is not currently accepted theory. It's just really friggin' big. I just don't accept that something could just have "existed forever." That, to me, is more illogical than a Creator.

I was saying that, to me, Infinite Regress isn't a problem because it's not truly infinite. We just can't grasp the beginning yet, so we call it infinite.

Where did God come from? Good question. An expected one, of course, but a good one. The answer is that there is no way for us to know if God even exists, so we can't possibly figure out where he/she/it came from. Prove God exists first, then we can tackle who his Dad was...

Regardless, I'll let you believe in your Universe without Beginning. You let me believe in mine.
 
You mean Saturnalia and the Winter Solstice? One of the biggest Pagan festivals of the year? Where they cut down an evergreen tree and bring it indoors and decorate it? Where friends exchanged gifts, and when even the slaves were allowed to eat, drink, and be merry? :smuggrin:

Living in a latitude where I now get less than nine hours of daylight, I must say that the solstice is to be celebrated regardless of your religious beliefs or socioeconomic status! If bringing a shrub into my living room keeps it happening, then bring me an ax and fill up the wassail bowl!
 
But there is no way to know this particular truth (at least not right now) so all we're doing is putting forth our own beliefs.

No, we're putting forth whatever bits and pieces we can prove. using logical reasoning, and the avoidance of logical pitfalls such as question begging, infinite regress, and demanding negative proof.

What you've just done in the above statement is played Loki's Wager, in a way.
 
Living in a latitude where I now get less than nine hours of daylight, I must say that the solstice is to be celebrated regardless of your religious beliefs or socioeconomic status! If bringing a shrub into my living room keeps it happening, then bring me an ax and fill up the wassail bowl!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
I am perfectly capable of dealing with a universe infinite in time, I just rejected it. People once believed that the Universe was also infinite in size, but that is not currently accepted theory. It's just really friggin' big. I just don't accept that something could just have "existed forever." That, to me, is more illogical than a Creator.

I was saying that, to me, Infinite Regress isn't a problem because it's not truly infinite. We just can't grasp the beginning yet, so we call it infinite.

Where did God come from? Good question. An expected one, of course, but a good one. The answer is that there is no way for us to know if God even exists, so we can't possibly figure out where he/she/it came from. Prove God exists first, then we can tackle who his Dad was...

Regardless, I'll let you believe in your Universe without Beginning. You let me believe in mine.

Its not truly infinite??? We just can't what??? You don't understand the Problem of Infinite Regress.

It is a Problem because arguments which make the mistake of falling into it become logically absurd.

What makes you think that I "believe" in a Universe without a beginning? Im just suggesting it as a possibility for argument's sake.

Let you believe in yours? Sure, but if you didnt want to put your thoughts on this topic up for debate, why did you enter a debate?
 
....I believe that you can't make something from nothing. The universe, to me, must have had a beginning at some point. If is has "just always been," well, that just seems a bit silly to me. ....
I remember reading a paper on quantum mechanics, and how events can cause their own origin/initiation through a form of temporal feedback loop.
 
I remember reading a paper on quantum mechanics, and how events can cause their own origin/initiation through a form of temporal feedback loop.

I remember reading that in the not-too-distant future.
But since I already remember it, I'm sure I won't bother to read it again.
 
My dynamic question is:

Why does this thread erupt right as so many of us are getting ready to head home for the holidays, only to have our grandparents chide us not for not going to church anymore and our parents cry because they don't want their future, unborn grandbabies to burn in hell because the ungrateful son they raised won't take them to church.

What, this isn't what your Christmas is like?

I like to refer to our family holiday get-togethers as "The Airing of the Greivances", which may be an early SNL idea.

I hear you on the grand-parent "burn in hell" syndrome, but I don't think that warm and fuzzy generational guilt is as strong as it once was.
 
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