The most recent new attempt at ranking residencies (US News/Doximity)

[Armadillos]

Apparently US News and Doximity are throwing their 2 cents into the residency ranking game through a survey of psychiatrists. Some expected results, some a little less expected.

Results for psych
1) MGH/McLean
2) Columbia
3) Yale
4) UCLA
5) Hopkins
6) UCSF
7) Pitt
8) Brigham/Harvard (This is longwood right?)
9) Cornell
9) NYU
Stanford
Duke
Baylor
UCSD
UNC
University of Washington
UPenn
MUSC
Michigan
Maryland

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[slappy]

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Ah yes, the measure of Name Recognition as a proxy for Quality of Training notches yet another publication...

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Ugh. It's not this simple.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

The fact that you're not sure where Longwood is and fail to list top non-mainstream programs that have nothing to do with the Top 40 funded universities says this list is bogus.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

I can easily argue UC Davis, UCLA-Harbor, Cambridge (at Harvard), and possibly San Mateo are superior to some of the programs on this list.

 

[SEPsych]

To play devil's advocate (because US News may literally be the devil). The survey only polled board certified docs in each relevant specialty. So at some level for applicants may be better to trust a couple hundred online internet docs than a couple dozen internet docs on here.

 

[digitlnoize]

Fail. Lots of good places not on that list that are better than things not on that list. Applicants ignore.

 

[Armadillos]

Obviously wouldnt have posted if I didn't think would make for some fun controversy. Baylor seems like an obvious one that should have dropped out of the top20 based on what Ive heard

 

[notdeadyet]

Where would USN&WR get ranked among news magazines?

 

[Armadillos]

Where would USN&WR get ranked among news magazines?

Are they even a news magazine? I always just assumed they survived off of ranking colleges.

 

[3882370]

Schools seem to think its worth posting:

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/newsroom/news-releases/year-2014/sept/ranks-best-in-nation.html

http://hub.jhu.edu/2014/09/10/us-news-rankings-residency-programs

http://news.upmcphysicianresources.com

 

[TexasPhysician]

Baylor being on there makes me question the validity of the entire list.

 

[Bartelby]

Whether it should or not I suspect this list will have a significant impact on applicants' choices. It's clear from discussions on SDN that people want to know which places are the "best" residencies, and so far the main guidance applicants have gotten was conjecture on SDN or vague "oh, I've heard Stanford is good..." from advisors.

I think if we (people involved in psychiatric education) don't like it we should come together, agree on useful metrics, and then publish them in an easy to access format on a web page. At least that way applicants would have more than rumor and the associated medical school's reputation to go on in picking which programs to look at.

 

[notdeadyet]

Are they even a news magazine? I always just assumed they survived off of ranking colleges.

Exactly. I think I'd be in shock if I ever heard/read something about a piece of journalism from their pages... I remember always being surprised to see it in the news rack next to Time and Newsweek.

 

[notdeadyet]

Whether it should or not I suspect this list will have a significant impact on applicants' choices. It's clear from discussions on SDN that people want to know which places are the "best" residencies, and so far the main guidance applicants have gotten was conjecture on SDN or vague "oh, I've heard Stanford is good..." from advisors.

I think if we (people involved in psychiatric education) don't like it we should come together, agree on useful metrics, and then publish them in an easy to access format on a web page. At least that way applicants would have more than rumor and the associated medical school's reputation to go on in picking which programs to look at.

Personally, I'm happy to say goodbye to any applicant that chooses not to apply to my program out of fear that it lacks prestige. I struggle to envision how the search for prestige can be considered a good quality. These smack of entitled/problem residents later. Don't need 'em...

Now, programs do have an obligation to make relevant information available on the website. Rotations, call, research options, customizabilitty, etc. I'm a little taken aback by how little information is available online for some programs. We owe it to applicants to give enough information that they can choose who to spend their precious money to interview with. Making FREIDA or the like more relevant would be great. But I'd sit out on any endeavor to try to create a prestige ranking...

 

[SmallBird]

Fail. Lots of good places not on that list that are better than things not on that list. Applicants ignore.

I mean these lists are hugely problematic, and should probably not form part of an applicants decision, but the top 9 listed there are probably not a bad estimation of some really good programs. It seems to resonate with places other people in my program and applicants interested in academic careers tell me they have applied to...

 

[whopper]

The above do have things about them that are good but I'd only take the list at that...a list of some respectable programs. There's so many more out there that are better in some ways.

 

[watto]

Years ago, in my 3rd year of med school, I asked my then-psychiatry mentor what he recalled as being most memorable / useful about his residency experience. He replied "good supervision" and now, only 3 years out of residency, I see his point. Wherever you go, having 1-2 excellent supervisors can be as beneficial as whatever else the program provides. I was lucky enough to have 2 incredible supervisors, one with a CBT and one with a psychodynamic focus, during my education. I implement some of their wisdom every day. Ask about the quality of supervision when interviewing!

 

[Indodo]

I can easily argue UC Davis, UCLA-Harbor, Cambridge (at Harvard), and possibly San Mateo are superior to some of the programs on this list.

Haha. San Mateo? That is a California bias if I have ever seen one. Not saying that you are wrong.

There is practically nothing from the midwest. Flyover psychiatry.
No UPMC, Case Western, CCF, Wash U, Mayo, Cinci, Wisconsin, UIC, Loyola, although michigan is the token.

 

[SmallBird]

Haha. San Mateo? That is a California bias if I have ever seen one. Not saying that you are wrong.

There is practically nothing from the midwest. Flyover psychiatry.
No UPMC, Case Western, CCF, Wash U, Mayo, Cinci, Wisconsin, UIC, Loyola, although michigan is the token.

UPMC is on the list...

 

[hamburger helper]

Baylor being on there makes me question the validity of the entire list.

Good point.

 

[jakeislove]

"What's in a name?..... "

 

[TexasPhysician]

Whether it should or not I suspect this list will have a significant impact on applicants' choices. It's clear from discussions on SDN that people want to know which places are the "best" residencies, and so far the main guidance applicants have gotten was conjecture on SDN or vague "oh, I've heard Stanford is good..." from advisors.

I think if we (people involved in psychiatric education) don't like it we should come together, agree on useful metrics, and then publish them in an easy to access format on a web page. At least that way applicants would have more than rumor and the associated medical school's reputation to go on in picking which programs to look at.

It's impossible to do accurately. A new PD, change in faculty, new sites, call schedules, etc can change yearly.

Take my program for example. The year before I matched was all IMG's. The sites were not great and neither was the call schedule. The program would not have been in the top 75.

The next year + 4 have all been AMG's. Not 1 IMG in the residency program now. Sites have upgraded, call schedule is better, benefits improved, faculty upgrades were made, etc. Historically it's not well known, but it is now more competitive than many programs listed in the original post.

When yearly changes vastly affect quality, an accurate ranking would require a full-time staff to evaluate all programs yearly. US News rankings don't have the staff, so they poll older faculty in academic positions. They are so far removed from training and their lack of knowledge of other programs makes it useless. It's now a glorified prom king vote.

 

[SmallBird]

It's impossible to do accurately. A new PD, change in faculty, new sites, call schedules, etc can change yearly.

Take my program for example. The year before I matched was all IMG's. The sites were not great and neither was the call schedule. The program would not have been in the top 75.

The next year + 4 have all been AMG's. Not 1 IMG in the residency program now. Sites have upgraded, call schedule is better, benefits improved, faculty upgrades were made, etc. Historically it's not well known, but it is now more competitive than many programs listed in the original post.

When yearly changes vastly affect quality, an accurate ranking would require a full-time staff to evaluate all programs yearly. US News rankings don't have the staff, so they poll older faculty in academic positions. They are so far removed from training and their lack of knowledge of other programs makes it useless. It's now a glorified prom king vote.

Their methodology may be imperfect but its certainly better than looking at the number of IMG's.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

It can take more than 5 years to build up a program, but a single bad event can destroy one in an afternoon. It is kind of like Penn State football.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Their methodology may be imperfect but its certainly better than looking at the number of IMG's.

My methodology doesn't involve number of IMG's, but the lack of IMG's can certainly demonstrate increased competition. So many AMG's want to come that IMG's aren't even interviewed now. That is a huge difference in only 1 year.

 

[TexasPhysician]

It can take more than 5 years to build up a program, but a single bad event can destroy one in an afternoon. It is kind of like Penn State football.

It can also occur in only 1.

 

[Indodo]

UPMC is on the list...

You are correct. My mistake. 2 Flyover programs although UPMC is technically mid-atlantic
RE: Baylor, I've met a couple of psychiatrists from there and they were very good.

Agree that IMGs are often stellar physicians but its best to have a mixed program with plenty of AMGs.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Haha. San Mateo? That is a California bias if I have ever seen one. Not saying that you are wrong.

There is practically nothing from the midwest. Flyover psychiatry.
No UPMC, Case Western, CCF, Wash U, Mayo, Cinci, Wisconsin, UIC, Loyola, although michigan is the token.

I thought it's common knowledge that I'm the West Coast guy on here, as I've said in previous posts. So yes, I'm proud of my west coast bias - it's a good bias to have

My knowledge of programs drops off precipitously east of the California-Nevada border. But within California, I know people at many of the programs and interviewed at almost all of them (and attend one), so ask me if you have questions.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

If you're going to include UIC and Loyola, you gotta top them with Northwestern which was good before and is getting even stronger with their relatively new leadership.

 

[Salpingo]

Apparently US News and Doximity are throwing their 2 cents into the residency ranking game through a survey of psychiatrists. Some expected results, some a little less expected.

Results for psych
1) MGH/McLean
2) Columbia
3) Yale
4) UCLA
5) Hopkins
6) UCSF
7) Pitt
8) Brigham/Harvard (This is longwood right?)
9) Cornell
9) NYU

To be honest, this seems like a fair list. I think Yale, Hopkins and Pitt have great programs with renowned faculty, but are less competitive because of location (and consequently, where residents end up practicing). It does feel a little dated, considering Mount Sinai and Cambridge, which seem to have been revitalized recently, didn't make the cut. I'm guessing the Brigham mention was for organizational purposes (so when you click Brigham all the other residencies pop-up, and they can brag that they had x many programs in the top 10).

As an aside, the "Feeder School" section is totally off, which is weird since it seems like it would be the easiest data to collect.

 

[shan564]

They probably polled more doctors on the coasts. I can think of many reasons why a "random" polling sample would have a skewed response rate.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Just for fun- compared to of US News' other rankings, this list is not completely off. However, Wash U, Emory, and UTSW definitely belong on that list over certain programs currently "ranked". Why certain places were not favored among psychiatrists sampled is not that perplexing
Emory: "not as relevant since the Nemeroff debacle"
Wash U: "residents do not receive adequate psychotherapy training"
UTSW: "not the same since Nestler left" (even though his current institution, Sinai, is still not on that list...)

 

[slappy]

...compared to US News' other rankings, this list is not completely off.

Therein lies the problem.

 

[milesed]

Glad to see mine up there

 

[MiddleRoad]

Not sure when the 2015 Doximity/US News and World Report results were posted, but I've listed them below.

Yes, there could have been some other well-deserved contenders for these spots, but these are all top-notch residency programs.

Now let the rankings-bashing and "wait, my program deserves to be ranked higher" begin!

1) MGH/McLean
2) Columbia
3) Yale
4) Cornell
5) UCSF
6) UCLA
7) UPMC
8) Longwood
9) NYU
10) Stanford

 

[Reubens]

I am definitely feeling programs like UM and Pitt since I am from Ohio, but how are the Ohio programs? It doesn't seem that programs like OSU, CC, Cinci, and Case are ranked very high.

 

[Monkey House]

8) Brigham/Harvard (This is longwood right?)

Yes "Brigham/Harvard ", is Longwood. It is rather worrisome they don't know who were actually are. For reference, Longwood is actually a street that runs past both BWH and BIDMC and as the Longwood program is affiliated with both these hospitals, the name stuck. Longwood is also affiliated with a nearby state hospital, Mass. Mental (but it is actually 2 blocks off Longwood) and a few other nearby hospitals.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I am definitely feeling programs like UM and Pitt since I am from Ohio, but how are the Ohio programs? It doesn't seem that programs like OSU, CC, Cinci, and Case are ranked very high.

You'll get perfectly good training at any of those four.

One more time: THESE RANKINGS ARE MEANINGLESS. It's not even a good survey--it's completely a test of name recognition.
Yes, that's right--it is less valid than your 8th grade school election was.

 

[Reubens]

You'll get perfectly good training at any of those four.

One more time: THESE RANKINGS ARE MEANINGLESS. It's not even a good survey--it's completely a test of name recognition.
Yes, that's right--it is less valid than your 8th grade school election was.

Yeah definitely. Figured I'd ask to see if anyone is familiar with them.

 

[perphezer]

It is like hospitals or colleges - they complain about the irrelevance of the list or the unfairness of the methodology until they make the top 10. Then they announce it on billboards.

A survey is only as good as the people who chose to respond. To me the list looks about right, but the problem isn't the list, it is looking at just the top 10. There are a lot of high quality psychiatry programs, and the differences in quality are small with various overlapping nuances that make one better than another at certain things.

If I were a medical student I would look at the list as yet one more bit of information, but if I considered the list in my choice I would look at a larger cut - as I view programs in the 20's and 30's there are still lots of excellent programs.

 

[Monkey House]

I would like to think that medical students applying to residency are wise enough to not base life decisions on a list. We all also agree that picking a residency is a very personal decision in terms of the specific training and resources and location applicants are looking for. So agreeing with the above, there are many great programs out there, and folks can chose to use, or not use, this list as they want. Does not seem like it is going to make a large difference in the world outside the halls of SDN?!

 

[675015]

Yeah definitely. Figured I'd ask to see if anyone is familiar with them.

Not sure when the 2015 Doximity/US News and World Report results were posted, but I've listed them below.

Yes, there could have been some other well-deserved contenders for these spots, but these are all top-notch residency programs.

Now let the rankings-bashing and "wait, my program deserves to be ranked hire" begin!

1) MGH/McLean
2) Columbia
3) Yale
4) Cornell
5) UCSF
6) UCLA
7) UPMC
8) Longwood
9) NYU
10) Stanford

I like how you purposefully resurrected a dead thread, knowing it would be inflammatory but also included a disclaimer to preemptively discredit any responses. Well played.

 

[MiddleRoad]

It is like hospitals or colleges - they complain about the irrelevance of the list or the unfairness of the methodology until they make the top 10. Then they announce it on billboards.

A survey is only as good as the people who chose to respond. To me the list looks about right, but the problem isn't the list, it is looking at just the top 10. There are a lot of high quality psychiatry programs, and the differences in quality are small with various overlapping nuances that make one better than another at certain things.

If I were a medical student I would look at the list as yet one more bit of information, but if I considered the list in my choice I would look at a larger cut - as I view programs in the 20's and 30's there are still lots of excellent programs.

To be fair to the Doximity/USN&WR, I only posted the top 10.

It goes down the list further (though you have to sign in for the rest).

 

[MiddleRoad]

I like how you purposefully resurrected a dead thread, knowing it would be inflammatory but also included a disclaimer to preemptively discredit any responses. Well played.

You've got my number.

Should I have made a brand new thread with this year's rankings? Would that have been less inflammatory? It probably would have been better to do that. Then this thread wouldn't begin with last year's information. If I did it now, it would be extra-inflammatory, though.

 

[Reubens]

I like how you purposefully resurrected a dead thread, knowing it would be inflammatory but also included a disclaimer to preemptively discredit any responses. Well played.

Never mind, just saw your PM! Thanks!

 

[Dharma]

Not sure when the 2015 Doximity/US News and World Report results were posted, but I've listed them below.

Yes, there could have been some other well-deserved contenders for these spots, but these are all top-notch residency programs.

Now let the rankings-bashing and "wait, my program deserves to be ranked higher" begin!

1) MGH/McLean
2) Columbia
3) Yale
4) Cornell
5) UCSF
6) UCLA
7) UPMC
8) Longwood
9) NYU
10) Stanford

WHY?

You lose a cool point.

 

[cleareyedguy]

Not sure when the 2015 Doximity/US News and World Report results were posted, but I've listed them below.

Yes, there could have been some other well-deserved contenders for these spots, but these are all top-notch residency programs.

Now let the rankings-bashing and "wait, my program deserves to be ranked higher" begin!

1) MGH/McLean
2) Columbia
3) Yale
4) Cornell
5) UCSF
6) UCLA
7) UPMC
8) Longwood
9) NYU
10) Stanford

I'm a college sports fan, and I follow recruiting. High school basketball and football players are ruthlessly evaluated and compared, and players from disparate parts of the country get ratings that are intended to delineate between the 11th best defensive lineman (who might be from Florida) and the 12th (who might be from California). They do this despite the reality that no scout can really watch these different guys. It can seem silly to differentiate 11 and 12, but you can be sure that the Alabamas and Oklahomas have rosters packed with guys rated highly, while the smaller football schools have few such recruits. Nevertheless, in the NFL draft, there are inevitably stars who come from these smaller schools.

In comparing psych programs, I don't see the real problem. This list of the 10 most elite places can be argued, but does anyone really think that this group of 10 is interchangeable with the residencies rated 40-49? The elite programs have deeper faculties, far more research money, better writing opportunities, and get many more of their top picks among resident applicants.

As with the transition from high schools to colleges and colleges to med school schools, there is a lot of movement, of course, and any of us can go up and down. Further, some of the best faculty and residents in the world thrive in programs that are viewed as mediocre, while all of the best places have their share of intellectual/personal duds, but if you're a betting person, I'd put my money on the places more highly ranked....

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Of course, being the west coast guy, I have to add UCSD and UCLA-Harbor to that list. Both excellent for their own special reasons. UCLA, Stanford, and UCSF deserve to be on there for sure.

1) MGH/McLean
2) Columbia
3) Yale
4) Cornell
5) UCSF
6) UCLA
7) UPMC
8) Longwood
9) NYU
10) Stanford
11) UCLA-Harbor
12) UCSD