The " Show No Weakness" culture of Medical school.

[EMDO2018]

It's a pride thing right? For every test we have the class grade distribution is published. Usually there are 4 or 5 people who get around 30% on each exam. There are tutoring services available for m1s, but according to one of my m2 friends that works there, nobody ever shows up. I kinda get it tho, if I was failing I would rather repeat than go crawling to my classmates for help who are just waiting to treat you like "that poor dumb kid" and just show off how smart they are.

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[Robotman]

You will never want to repeat, EVER. It will close doors to you moreso than a C will ever. Pride will quickly dissipate in your second semester.

 

[chillaxbro]

I know some of those 4-5 people. His words regarding failing: "I dun give a fuuuuuukkk"

 

[EMDO2018]

I know some of those 4-5 people. His words regarding failing: "I dun give a fuuuuuukkk"

Then why take the MCAT and spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on the admissions process?

 

[Apoplexy__]

I know some of those 4-5 people. His words regarding failing: "I dun give a fuuuuuukkk"

I once sat near to a classmate I had never met at a Starbucks, around midnight before our class final. He was jokingly talking about how he was going to fail, and lightheardedly mentioned dropping out.

I never saw him again. The memory feels like a memory of a dead man.

 

[operaman]

Failing in med school happens for one of the following reasons:

1) Not keeping up with classes -- far and away the most common reason. Sometimes people hit a patch of burnout or get distracted by a new relationship or an old relationship gone sour, or who knows what. Point is that they don't put in the time and pay the price.

2) Mental illness/substance abuse -- close second and somewhat tied in with #1, but deserves its own category. These people also get behind but the etiology is obviously different and dealing with it is different too.

3) Inadequate intelligence - rare but it happens. The admissions process prevents this most of the time, but there are some truly soft admits that just don't have the chops no matter how hard they work.

4) Physical illness/traumatic life event -- probably the least common cause of failure because the overwhelming majority of people who face something like this will just take a leave of absence. I've never known our dean's office to be anything but totally understanding and helpful when major things happen.

The first 2 being the most common, it also makes sense why these people don't show up for tutoring and extra help. I know our dean's office mandates repeating students go to tutoring and have it documented (I've done a lot of tutoring for these folks).

Whatever you do, med school is not a time to suffer in silence and go it alone. Reach out for help early and often. Reach out for help even if you don't think you need it. Worst case scenario you end up overprepared.

 

[Kaustikos]

I once sat near to a classmate I had never met at a Starbucks, around midnight before our class final. He was jokingly talking about how he was going to fail, and lightheardedly mentioned dropping out.

I never saw him again. The memory feels like a memory of a dead man.

It's worse in a class of 16. When one person fails/has to repeat, it's like an unnerving reality that it happens and the "failure rate" doesn't seem as low as advertised. Key word "seems". Especially when that person is working like crazy and doesn't seem "unqualified" to do medicine.
I'll never forget that night. Thankfully, we talked her into continuing and not dropping out. She's now an ms3 and way happier.

 

[EMDO2018]

I once sat near to a classmate I had never met at a Starbucks, around midnight before our class final. He was jokingly talking about how he was going to fail, and lightheardedly mentioned dropping out.

I never saw him again. The memory feels like a memory of a dead man.

That's sad actually. These people are smart, they got into med school so its not like they can't do it. I also have noticed people who are in serious academic trouble will mention it in a joking way or their classmates won't believe them. I heard a girl mention she might fail, and her friends just took it as a joke.

 

[Jabbed]

I once sat near to a classmate I had never met at a Starbucks, around midnight before our class final. He was jokingly talking about how he was going to fail, and lightheardedly mentioned dropping out.

I never saw him again. The memory feels like a memory of a dead man.

That was really unnerving.

 

[Dr.Surgeon]

It's a pride thing right? For every test we have the class grade distribution is published. Usually there are 4 or 5 people who get around 30% on each exam. There are tutoring services available for m1s, but according to one of my m2 friends that works there, nobody ever shows up. I kinda get it tho, if I was failing I would rather repeat than go crawling to my classmates for help who are just waiting to treat you like "that poor kid" and just show off how smart they are.

That's dumb. I don't get why people do that. I was the opposite. I Pretended to be "that poor dumb kid" so the ms2's felt sorry for me and spent more time tutoring me instead of other gunners Mwahaha

 

[178624]

It's a pride thing right? For every test we have the class grade distribution is published. Usually there are 4 or 5 people who get around 30% on each exam. There are tutoring services available for m1s, but according to one of my m2 friends that works there, nobody ever shows up. I kinda get it tho, if I was failing I would rather repeat than go crawling to my classmates for help who are just waiting to treat you like "that poor kid" and just show off how smart they are.

I'd rather get treated like the poor kid and learn from the guys who know wtf they're doing. Why waste time repeating if there's some friends who can save you.

 

[evilbooyaa]

It's a pride thing right? For every test we have the class grade distribution is published. Usually there are 4 or 5 people who get around 30% on each exam. There are tutoring services available for m1s, but according to one of my m2 friends that works there, nobody ever shows up. I kinda get it tho, if I was failing I would rather repeat than go crawling to my classmates for help who are just waiting to treat you like "that poor kid" and just show off how smart they are.

If you truly believe that, you are dumb and/or excessively egotistical to learn from those who are better than you (even if they are technically your peer). Either of those qualities will not serve you well throughout the rest of medical school.

 

[Apoplexy__]

It's worse in a class of 16. When one person fails/has to repeat, it's like an unnerving reality that it happens and the "failure rate" doesn't seem as low as advertised. Key word "seems". Especially when that person is working like crazy and doesn't seem "unqualified" to do medicine.
I'll never forget that night. Thankfully, we talked her into continuing and not dropping out. She's now an ms3 and way happier.

Class of 16? Are we talking residency, or what?

That's sad actually. These people are smart, they got into med school so its not like they can't do it. I also have noticed people who are in serious academic trouble will mention it in a joking way or their classmates won't believe them. I heard a girl mention she might fail, and her friends just took it as a joke.

Yeah, I feel bad for the guy. I think the hardest part for these people who are failing is that it's not just a one-time thing that can be fixed.

You don't get a 30% on a test and say "Oh, I'll just study extra-hard today". You can get as emotional and anxious as you want after academic defeat, but that'll only last for a day, maybe a week at most. Then they'll fall back into whatever made them fail initially. There seems to be some glaring thing that's causing them to not put in the time, like operaman mentioned, and changing that is so difficult to do in time not to fail irreversibly.

Then these people catch themselves the night before the final, knowing they're doomed, joking about failing to their classmates as the best way they know to communicate it.

 

[TheShaker]

That was really unnerving.

Is it really? I took it as the classic "too cool to care" kind of demeanor.

 

[evilbooyaa]

At my school, if you fail an exam (< 70% I believe) and are currently failing the course (like if it's the first exam or you barely passed your previous exam) administration e-mails you to explain what's going on with your life, and gives you a contact for free tutoring. They know it's dumb to force somebody who somewhat underestimated the exam and got a 69% into the same situation as someone who got a bonafide 30%. I think every exam with posted distributions, there was always one person < 50%... but my class size is like 200 so I'm assuming it was a different one person who just was hungover or something the day of the exam.

 

[178624]

the trick is, to not let anyone know you got help.

 

[EMDO2018]

the trick is, to not let anyone know you got help.

med school is small, people talk

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Class of 16? Are we talking residency, or what?

One of the IU preclinical branch campuses I believe.

 

[178624]

med school is small, people talk

hence "the trick is"

 

[touchpause13]

I'd rather be that girl who is getting tutoring than that girl who had to repeat X class. But that's just me

 

[circulus vitios]

This is more general than weakness in testing, but:

Administration: We're concerned about students' well-being.
*Constantly ****s with the curriculum and creates unnecessary stress with bull**** meetings that have mandatory attendance.*

 

[DermViser]

It's a pride thing right? For every test we have the class grade distribution is published. Usually there are 4 or 5 people who get around 30% on each exam. There are tutoring services available for m1s, but according to one of my m2 friends that works there, nobody ever shows up. I kinda get it tho, if I was failing I would rather repeat than go crawling to my classmates for help who are just waiting to treat you like "that poor dumb kid" and just show off how smart they are.

Yup, real smart move. Fail the course, have to repeat and have them require you to go to tutoring again anyways. Yup, real smart.

 

[MedWonk]

It's a pride thing right? For every test we have the class grade distribution is published. Usually there are 4 or 5 people who get around 30% on each exam. There are tutoring services available for m1s, but according to one of my m2 friends that works there, nobody ever shows up. I kinda get it tho, if I was failing I would rather repeat than go crawling to my classmates for help who are just waiting to treat you like "that poor dumb kid" and just show off how smart they are.

I failed my first genetics quiz and promptly when to tutoring, and got 80-85 on every quiz/exam from then on out. **** "toughing it out", I want to learn it right the first time around and move on.

 

[DermViser]

It's a pride thing right? For every test we have the class grade distribution is published. Usually there are 4 or 5 people who get around 30% on each exam. There are tutoring services available for m1s, but according to one of my m2 friends that works there, nobody ever shows up. I kinda get it tho, if I was failing I would rather repeat than go crawling to my classmates for help who are just waiting to treat you like "that poor dumb kid" and just show off how smart they are.

You're an utter fool if you actually believe this to be true. I used to go to tutoring sessions to help me stay on top of material, not bc I was "failing" and I wasn't the only one. It was a great motivator to stay on top of the material and we can discuss the material to make it stick. It's not the medical school's fault that you have an ego.

Seriously, your logic process needs some work.

 

[Snoopy2006]

Yeah, pretty disappointing thinking here. Are some people's egos really that fragile?

You think it looks better when next year's M2 class comes in knowing each other already, and you're "that one new kid" who dropped down from last year's class? Or when the people you started medical school with are graduating and you're getting ready for Step 1?

Repeating is one of the most unfortunate things that can happen to a medical student, short of expulsion, illness, or personal tragedy. Not doing everything you can to avoid that fate smacks of stupidity on an epic scale.

At our school extra tutoring sessions were only available to students who were struggling. I once tried to attend and they said it was only for students who scored below a certain % on the exam. Still didn't stop me from exploring all options I had to do better. You can always improve and refine your study habits and learning.

 

[Snoopy2006]

As an aside, there is a "Show No Weakness" mentality in medicine, but you usually see that more once you enter your clinical years. That's what I assumed this thread was going to be about when I saw the title. The culture of hiding sleep deprivation, personal misery, exhaustion - setting aside your own personal issues and completely devoting yourself to residency/practice. It's slowly phasing out and improving, but that culture of machismo is still present at many institutions.

It is not about avoiding tutors during your M1 year because you're afraid of being the dumb kid.

 

[Señor S]

Crazy that nobody goes to the tutoring sessions at your school. Where I am, they're invite only and you'll get turned away if your average in the class is too high (>75, or something). I would have loved to have somebody quiz me on anatomy, and I wasn't even close to failing. Actually, I still wish I'd tried to sneak or cajole my way into those things. Oh well.

 

[operaman]

I'm a pretty smart 4th year with a flawless academic record and I utilized every free tutoring and faculty-led review session I possibly could all through school. Why on earth would I not want to go over material with people who just took that same exam last year?! Why not take advantage of faculty telling you what they're going to test?!

EVERYONE in med school needs help at some point, even the best students. The smart ones ask for help early and often. Don't wait until you're really behind and overwhelmed. Who cares if someone thinks you're stupid? I can think of so many people in my class who would struggle in tutoring sessions and group study sessions that ultimately got junior AOA and crushed step 1. They obviously learned and understood it eventually!

With regard to tests, all the matters is the final grade on the real thing, not what you did to get there.

 

[ortnakas]

Failing in med school happens for one of the following reasons:

1) Not keeping up with classes -- far and away the most common reason. Sometimes people hit a patch of burnout or get distracted by a new relationship or an old relationship gone sour, or who knows what. Point is that they don't put in the time and pay the price.

2) Mental illness/substance abuse -- close second and somewhat tied in with #1, but deserves its own category. These people also get behind but the etiology is obviously different and dealing with it is different too.

3) Inadequate intelligence - rare but it happens. The admissions process prevents this most of the time, but there are some truly soft admits that just don't have the chops no matter how hard they work.

4) Physical illness/traumatic life event -- probably the least common cause of failure because the overwhelming majority of people who face something like this will just take a leave of absence. I've never known our dean's office to be anything but totally understanding and helpful when major things happen.

The first 2 being the most common, it also makes sense why these people don't show up for tutoring and extra help. I know our dean's office mandates repeating students go to tutoring and have it documented (I've done a lot of tutoring for these folks).

Whatever you do, med school is not a time to suffer in silence and go it alone. Reach out for help early and often. Reach out for help even if you don't think you need it. Worst case scenario you end up overprepared.

This is fair, but as a MS-1 looking at remediating anatomy, I think it's multi-factorial for a lot of people. For example, it's hard to prepare when you're coping with anxiety, but it's hard to cope with anxiety when you're preparing. I'm absolutely not trying to say my situation isn't my responsibility, just that it's not always easy to pinpoint a reason, especially when you're the one in the situation.

 

[W19]

the trick is, to not let anyone know you got help.

The trick is to study your ass off so you don't have to be in that position, and don't be afraid to ask for help if you are... There are 2 students who are repeating in my class and one can see that they look so uncomfortable. I was told that one of them it was personal issues and they made sure that these issues were resolved before letting him repeat since he failed multiple classes...

Almost everything about med school sucks... The only good thing that I see so far is that: They TRULY don't want you to fail...

 

[DermViser]

the trick is, to not let anyone know you got help.

No. The trick is not to give a **** what other fellow students think, just bc you got help. They're not paying your bills.

 

[I_Cant_tell_you]

I used tutoring services during my first year for gross anatomy and I know plenty of people who did the same. Most people go to brush up on material and no one is embarrassed to be there. Why should they be?

 

[Robotman]

Seriously these posters saying the trick is to not let anyone know that you got help are either trolls or pathetic. Who cares if you got help. No one got through life without help and this is coming from a guy who never used school tutor or study groups.

It takes a person with admirable character to seek help rather than wallow in pity.

 

[DermViser]

Seriously these posters saying the trick is to not let anyone know that you got help are either trolls or pathetic. Who cares if you got help. No one got through life without help and this is coming from a guy who never used school tutor or study groups.

It takes a person with admirable character to seek help rather than wallow in pity.

 

[178624]

Seriously these posters saying the trick is to not let anyone know that you got help are either trolls or pathetic. Who cares if you got help. No one got through life without help and this is coming from a guy who never used school tutor or study groups.

It takes a person with admirable character to seek help rather than wallow in pity.

I've corrected professor (and residents) before behind closed doors, and in front of people. Both resulted in very different effects.

The professor I corrected behind closed doors with my anatomy textbook had respect for me.

The resident I corrected in front of everyone turned into a disaster.

How would my professor have felt if I let him lecture the lab with the wrong info OR if I would have told everyone he was dead wrong. What would happen to his credibility? It may not plummet, but it may lessen.

 

[el_duderino]

The culture at my school is absolutely nothing at all like what is described here.

 

[DermViser]

I've corrected professor (and residents) before behind closed doors, and in front of people. Both resulted in very different effects.

The professor I corrected behind closed doors with my anatomy textbook had respect for me.

The resident I corrected in front of everyone turned into a disaster.

How would my professor have felt if I let him lecture the lab with the wrong info OR if I would have told everyone he was dead wrong. What would happen to his credibility? It may not plummet, but it may lessen.

You're actually shocked that as a medical student when you corrected a resident in front of the entire group that it turned into a disaster?

 

[178624]

No. I don't get shocked. I wanted to see.

 

[DermViser]

No. I don't get shocked. I wanted to see.

Oh, so you were just trying to cause trouble, unnecessarily. I'm sure you received a smashing evaluation.

 

[178624]

Oh, so you were just trying to cause trouble, unnecessarily. I'm sure you received a smashing evaluation.

The evaluation was easily predicted. But the experience invaluable

 

[DermViser]

The evaluation was easily predicted. But the experience invaluable

In what way was it invaluable?

 

[178624]

This is not the time nor place to explain it.

 

[FIREitUP]

am i the only one who thinks OP is out of his mind? not only was this not the culture during the preclinical years at my institution, but you were actually on your game if you went to tutoring because the upper level students gave great advice and taught the material based on what their test was on. honestly I thought this thread was going to bring about discussion about showing weakness on the wards, which is actually a legitimate concern.

 

[DermViser]

This is not the time nor place to explain it.

Uh, huh.

 

[DermViser]

am i the only one who thinks OP is out of his mind? not only was this not the culture during the preclinical years at my institution, but you were actually on your game if you went to tutoring because the upper level students gave great advice and taught the material based on what their test was on. honestly I thought this thread was going to bring about discussion about showing weakness on the wards, which is actually a legitimate concern.

OP is more a whiner and complainer more than anything else (on everything). It's more his insecurities playing out rather than actual reality. I also thought he was talking about the clinical years which this topic is much more pertinent to.

 

[178624]

no. OP is not out of his mind. OP is on to something very Profound.

I can't expect you to understand.

 

[FIREitUP]

no. OP is not out of his mind. OP is on to something very Profound.

I can't expect you to understand.

yeah, it's not like I've gone through most of medical school or anything

 

[178624]

yeah, it's not like I've gone through most of medical school or anything

props for that. keep going.

 

[DermViser]

no. OP is not out of his mind. OP is on to something very Profound.

I can't expect you to understand.

Profound? Not really.

On probationary status, why?

 

[178624]

good question.