Theoretically, can a specialist pay back their 200k loan in 2-3 years?

[Perrotfish]

Hmmm. Well,, if I dont match into derm, I will also try for radiology. Pm&r sounds like it doesnt have a bad lifestyle either, so thats not out of the question. I dont think I would enjoy family medicine though. I have to match into something specialized with a good lifestyle and pay.

It might help if you get a better idea of how competitive different residencies are relative to one another. Radiology is also very competitive: not insanely competitive like Derm, but competitive enough that you'd need to beat out at least a two thirds of your class to get it. That's not easy (I certainly didn't have the grades). A quick and mostly accurate primer:

Insanely competitive (you could be the best in your class and not match): Plastics, Derm, Ear/Nose/Throat, ophtomology, Pediatric surgery (a surgery fellowship), and Rad Onc
Very competitive (You need to be the top third of your class with a great step 1 to match): Ortho, Urology, radiology (competitiveness is going down along with pay), anesthesia,and most of the lucrative Internal medicine and surgery fellowships
Competitive (Plan on being at least an above average medical student): EM (harder to match every year), surgery and the less competitive surgery fellowships, internal medicine, less competitive internal medicine subspecialties, the more competitive pediatric subspecialties, and Neurology.
Easy (Anyone with a medical degree can match): Family practice, PM&R, Pediatrics (and most Peds fellowships), Psychiatry, and Pathology.

I wouldn't recommend anyone do medicine unless they think they would be happy with one of the easier specialties to get. If you'd only be happy with Urology/Plastics/whatever, odds are too high you're going to end up unhappy.

That being said, I feel like your goals might be very close to psychiatry. About 200K/year and relatively light hours even during residency. PM&R might also work. Consider shadowing in a few of those specialties to see if one of them feels like something you'd be happy doing.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I want to be a dermatologist, and army/navy/airforce takes doctors who are family practice docs, and also those who specialize in injury medicine or something. Something where they go abroad to iraq to cure injuries of soliders. NOT something I wanna do I want to be a dermatologist and deal with teenagers' zits. Plus easy lifestyle+great pay. I wanna have kids too, maybe during residency or after, but at age 30 I'm starting no matter what. Don't wanna be infertile later on and end up hating my life

http://www.troll.me/images/full-******/you-went-full-******-never-go-full-******.jpg

 

[streampaw]

That's not really how the process works..
Also, you "have to match" into something specialized... so if you don't are you just going to quit medicine and do something else?

No. Then i would go

It might help if you get a better idea of how competitive different residencies are relative to one another. Radiology is also very competitive: not insanely competitive like Derm, but competitive enough that you'd need to beat out at least a two thirds of your class to get it. That's not easy (I certainly didn't have the grades). A quick and mostly accurate primer:

Insanely competitive (you could be the best in your class and not match): Plastics, Derm, Ear/Nose/Throat, ophtomology, Pediatric surgery (a surgery fellowship), and Rad Onc
Very competitive (You need to be the top third of your class with a great step 1 to match): Ortho, Urology, radiology (competitiveness is going down along with pay), anesthesia,and most of the lucrative Internal medicine and surgery fellowships
Competitive (Plan on being at least an above average medical student): EM (harder to match every year), surgery and the less competitive surgery fellowships, internal medicine, less competitive internal medicine subspecialties, the more competitive pediatric subspecialties, and Neurology.
Easy (Anyone with a medical degree can match): Family practice, PM&R, Pediatrics (and most Peds fellowships), Psychiatry, and Pathology.

I wouldn't recommend anyone do medicine unless they think they would be happy with one of the easier specialties to get. If you'd only be happy with Urology/Plastics/whatever, odds are too high you're going to end up unhappy.

That being said, I feel like your goals might be very close to psychiatry. About 200K/year and relatively light hours even during residency. PM&R might also work. Consider shadowing in a few of those specialties to see if one of them feels like something you'd be happy doing.

PM&R and psychiatry are definitely not out of the question. I will take any specialty I match into (but probs not fam medicine), but I will still aim high for dermatology. Thank you for your response.

 

[streampaw]

*Then I would go into a less competitive specialty

 

[circulus vitios]

A quick and mostly accurate primer:

Insanely competitive (you could be the best in your class and not match): Plastics, Derm, Ear/Nose/Throat, ophtomology, Pediatric surgery (a surgery fellowship), and Rad Onc
Very competitive (You need to be the top third of your class with a great step 1 to match): Ortho, Urology, radiology (competitiveness is going down along with pay), anesthesia,and most of the lucrative Internal medicine and surgery fellowships
Competitive (Plan on being at least an above average medical student): EM (harder to match every year), surgery and the less competitive surgery fellowships, internal medicine, less competitive internal medicine subspecialties, the more competitive pediatric subspecialties, and Neurology.
Easy (Anyone with a medical degree can match): Family practice, PM&R, Pediatrics (and most Peds fellowships), Psychiatry, and Pathology.

I was under the impression that anesthesia was barely competitive (see: the huge number of DOs that match into anesthesia) and rads was mildly competitive, similarly competitive to gen surg?

 

[username456789]

I was under the impression that anesthesia was barely competitive (see: the huge number of DOs that match into anesthesia) and rads was mildly competitive, similarly competitive to gen surg?

Radiology has a lot of spots compared with some other "very competitive" specialties. Getting a residency at a top program - like most fields - is going to be extremely competitive, and there are a lot of 250-260/AOA types applying. But there are also a ton of community programs where a 220-230 will keep you in the hunt.

Anesthesia is generally not considered to be particularly competitive, no.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Naive + presumptuous = making 50 inane threads about your ridiculous hypothetical life before you even graduate high school, not that it matters because you'll probably forget about medicine and move on to your next $400k/year / 30 hour a week fantasy after switching majors 6 weeks into your freshman year of college.

^
This right here. I give it her first batch of science courses. OP in my high school graduating class there was like 25 people all claiming they were going to be world class doctors and had the grades to back it up (at least for high school). 5 dropped out and became drug addicts, 10 switched majors after 1 semester to english/communication, and the other 10 went on to random crap. There are however 2 people that I know of (not in the original 25 gunning for medicine before graduating high school) who were humble, hard working, and tested the waters (before making any proclamations) and they are now in medical school.

humility.... get some.... that is why everyone is up in your grill

 

[rain4venus]

I'm not a troll. I don't understand, why do you think I am a troll? What makes me a troll? What is so wrong with what I say? Yeah, so I want to do derm. I will enjoy it, and have enough time to raise kids as well. I am not the kind of person who can "focus everything in my entire freaking life" to just a career. It's a freaking career, people! Do something you enjoy, but you need a leisure life too. Being a derm provides me with both, so I don't freaking see how the hell you consider me to be a troll. I don't understand what is wrong with my thinking? I don't want to travel around for military requirements and get sent to iraq, or some rural area! I want to live where I freaking want to live, in a good area in a city, where my children can go to a good school and participate in meaningful sports, like I was never able to do when I was a child. I also don't want to be one of those parents who is never home because of career. I am doing this career only HALF for me, and the other half for my future children, so they will never be as isolated as I was during childhood. My life is not a career, my life is my life. If i wanna do derm I do derm. All I'm looking for on this forum is the advice I ASK for, not the advice I don't ask for (such as how to live my life, and what choices I should make). No, I am looking only for advice that helps me achieve the choices I already am choosing. I don't understand why I am getting so much bashing. It is my life, and if I have to, I will bust ass to get into a great med school, and bust ass in med school to get into dermatology, and I will do MD/PhD if that means not taking out loans and giving more money to my future children, and a higher chance of getting into derm. Then, I will work 3/4 time as a dermatologist while raising my future children and providing for them. Ok? All I am looking on this forum is for advice regarding my questions, not my choices. People tell me not to do MD/PhD because "you're too selfish, the uni will spend so much money on you and you will go into private practice" blah blah blah. Do you know what? The universities are rich, and we people are poor. So it's not your decision about who is selfish and who is not.

What dermatology is not.
AND
What dermatology is.

If you can make it through one page of the second link, then I'll believe your commitment to derm. The skin is grosser than the mouth or any other body part.

 

[streampaw]

What dermatology is not.
AND
What dermatology is.

If you can make it through one page of the second link, then I'll believe your commitment to derm. The skin is grosser than the mouth or any other body part.

It's not that bad. It's just a bunch of rashes. I'll just prescribe them all creams and stuff. And do surgery for the ones that need mole removal

 

[KnuxNole]

It's not that bad. It's just a bunch of rashes. I'll just prescribe them all creams and stuff. And do surgery for the ones that need mole removal

Better get that lawyer boyfriend ready to defend you like there is no tomorrow.

 

[rain4venus]

It's not that bad. It's just a bunch of rashes. I'll just prescribe them all creams and stuff. And do surgery for the ones that need mole removal

I'll assume that means you didn't look at the pics. Things like this are not "just...rashes." I think you've forgotten an entire category of what derms do.
I suppose you could limit yourself to cosmetic dermatology, although good luck getting through med school and residency without having to deal with a staph infection.

 

[SunsFun]

Better get that lawyer boyfriend ready to defend you like there is no tomorrow.

To be fair he might need the job coming out of some Podunk law school in Oregon.

 

[streampaw]

I'll assume that means you didn't look at the pics. Things like this are not "just...rashes." I think you've forgotten an entire category of what derms do.
I suppose you could limit yourself to cosmetic dermatology, although good luck getting through med school and residency without having to deal with a staph infection.

Guys stop it. Fine fine, I'll consider radiology as well. I just asked a question in the radiology section about how much do academic radiologists take home per year, and how many hours they work. Hey, I would be okay with doing rad, making 200k per year while working 30 hours a week.

 

[streampaw]

And that pic looks like someone got a black ball stuck in their skin. A little surgery should be okay, but I don't want to specialize in surgery.

 

[username456789]

In Derm, the cosmetics patients are almost categorically the worst and most annoying to deal with.

In the same afternoon I'll have an 80 year old farmer with a dozen basal cell cancers on his face who couldn't be bothered to come see me until his wife finally convinced him, followed by a neurotic 47 year old woman whose 2 milia are absolutely RUINING her life.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

In Derm, the cosmetics patients are almost categorically the worst and most annoying to deal with.

In the same afternoon I'll have an 80 year old farmer with a dozen basal cell cancers on his face who couldn't be bothered to come see me until his wife finally convinced him, followed by a neurotic 47 year old woman whose 2 milia are absolutely RUINING her life.

OP identifies with the 47 yo.

 

[rain4venus]

And that pic looks like someone got a black ball stuck in their skin. A little surgery should be okay, but I don't want to specialize in surgery.

that's not what happened...

 

[KnuxNole]

OP doesn't realize she is gonna be BUSTING HER BUTT in 3rd year and intern year....whether it's radiology or derm. She'll be working 80+ hours, dealing with lots of icky diseases, and will take a very long time till she can even sniff at 30 hour weeks. I bet OP won't want to read on her spare time to gain her fund of knowledge, just stick to the bare minimum in everything.

To be fair he might need the job coming out of some Podunk law school in Oregon.

I have more faith in her boyfriend than her. OP sounds like a pouty 12 year old, who says "NYAH NYAH IM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG".

To be fair, OP must be smoking hot, based on her behavior.

 

[jw3600]

Yeah, that guy is full of it. Run some numbers on www.paycheckcity.com

This thread is straight roll tide, but you should really read up on WCI. He is an EXTREMELY smart investor/financial planner. Check out his site.

jw3600 was not financially compensated for the above remarks.

 

[rain4venus]

OP doesn't realize she is gonna be BUSTING HER BUTT in 3rd year and intern year....whether it's radiology or derm. She'll be working 80+ hours, dealing with lots of icky diseases, and will take a very long time till she can even sniff at 30 hour weeks. I bet OP won't want to read on her spare time to gain her fund of knowledge, just stick to the bare minimum in everything.

nah, didn't you hear? She's gonna do a lifestyle residency.

 

[KnuxNole]

nah, didn't you hear? She's gonna do a lifestyle residency.

True...but the path to get there, will consist of the above. After all, she can't just expect to learn all of derm/rads in 40 hrs/week. Gonna have to read derm articles while feeding 4 of the kids, and stopping 2 from pulling each other's hair, 1 from eating chalk, and 1 from peeing on the plants.

 

[deleted407021]

nah, didn't you hear? She's gonna do a lifestyle residency.

And when old men with skin cancer get the way of her taking her 4 spoiled littles sheits to Disney world for the 3 rd time in a month, she'll run them over in her Ferrari, because no one gets in the way of her every desire.

 

[username456789]

True...but the path to get there, will consist of the above. After all, she can't just expect to learn all of derm/rads in 40 hrs/week. Gonna have to read derm articles while feeding 4 of the kids, and stopping 2 from pulling each other's hair, 1 from eating chalk, and 1 from peeing on the plants.

Derm has one of the biggest reading loads of any specialty when it comes to residency. It's kind of like being a first/second year medical student all over again.

She'll be lucky if she has time to read any Derm articles among the ~2200 pages of Bolognia, and numerous Derm path and Pediatric Derm texts.

 

[Skeeks]

are you mormon, @sterlingh87 ?

Yeah I am

 

[KnuxNole]

Derm has one of the biggest reading loads of any specialty when it comes to residency. It's kind of like being a first/second year medical student all over again.

She'll be lucky if she has time to read any Derm articles among the ~2200 pages of Bolognia, and numerous Derm path and Pediatric Derm texts.

I can see the response now...

"Boy please. I'll just use some skin cream on those rashes. And refer out to surgery if it needs to be cutted up. I don't need to read Bologna to know that, silly!"

 

[streampaw]

And when old men with skin cancer get the way of her taking her 4 spoiled littles sheits to Disney world for the 3 rd time in a month, she'll run them over in her Ferrari, because no one gets in the way of her every desire.

Why would old men with skin cancer get in the way? I'll just say I can't come in to work that day, and have someone else take over. Big deal

 

[streampaw]

Also, you can't fit four kids comfortably in a ferrari.

 

[mcloaf]

Why would old men with skin cancer get in the way? I'll just say I can't come in to work that day, and have someone else take over. Big deal

You've gone full troll. Rein it in a bit to keep us interested.

 

[deleted407021]

You've gone full troll. Rein it in a bit to keep us interested.

It's like finding out the people who made a B movie made it suck on purpose. It takes the fun out of it.

 

[KnuxNole]

Also, you can't fit four kids comfortably in a ferrari.

Yes you can. Unless your kids are fat.

 

[BlueLabel]

Guys stop it. Fine fine, I'll consider radiology as well. I just asked a question in the radiology section about how much do academic radiologists take home per year, and how many hours they work. Hey, I would be okay with doing rad, making 200k per year while working 30 hours a week.

"I'll consider radiology as well"

Well how gracious of you OP!!!!!!11!!

 

[terp720]

Guys stop it. Fine fine, I'll consider radiology as well. I just asked a question in the radiology section about how much do academic radiologists take home per year, and how many hours they work. Hey, I would be okay with doing rad, making 200k per year while working 30 hours a week.

Streampaw, I really suggest you read this article and really think about why you're doing what you're doing.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/12/4-bad-reasons-medical-students-choose-specialty.html

 

[circulus vitios]

This thread is straight roll tide, but you should really read up on WCI. He is an EXTREMELY smart investor/financial planner. Check out his site.

jw3600 was not financially compensated for the above remarks.

He's not giving the full picture or he's being deliberately disingenuous. There is no way in hell that his take home is ~80% of his gross. I pay more than that and I only make $35k/year.

 

[gettheleadout]

He's not giving the full picture or he's being deliberately disingenuous. There is no way in hell that his take home is ~80% of his gross. I pay more than that and I only make $35k/year.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/10-reasons-why-i-pay-less-tax-than-mitt-romney/

 

[milkandcereal]

Why would old men with skin cancer get in the way? I'll just say I can't come in to work that day, and have someone else take over. Big deal

Ease up, your ruining the illusion! I want to believe you're real and you're making it increasingly difficult.

 

[notbobtrustme]

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/10-reasons-why-i-pay-less-tax-than-mitt-romney/

That's a bit ingenious too because Mitt Romney doesn't need to do all that in order to drop his taxable gross. In any case, that's not what people are usually thinking about when they want to minimize their tax burden. He's playing around with how his money is being distrubuted, but the end outcome is roughly the same, that is, less money is taken home. Sure, he can eventually use all that money when he retires or gets sick or w/e, but that's not the same as Mitt Romney, who has a super-low bracket and still can take all of his cash.

 

[gettheleadout]

That's a bit ingenious too because Mitt Romney doesn't need to do all that in order to drop his taxable gross. In any case, that's not what people are usually thinking about when they want to minimize their tax burden. He's playing around with how his money is being distrubuted, but the end outcome is roughly the same, that is, less money is taken home. Sure, he can eventually use all that money when he retires or gets sick or w/e, but that's not the same as Mitt Romney, who has a super-low bracket and still can take all of his cash.

I interpret the Romney reference as a gimmick to make a socially-relevant point, not something that has anything to do with the principles behind Dahle's tax rate. Yeah, Romney's tax rate is fundamentally different because his income is different from Dahle's (LTCG/whatever vs wages/salary), but that's not the point. Allocating money to tax-advantaged accounts isn't losing it or anything, and money for retirement or emergency or college is still money held.

 

[circulus vitios]

I interpret the Romney reference as a gimmick to make a socially-relevant point, not something that has anything to do with the principles behind Dahle's tax rate. Yeah, Romney's tax rate is fundamentally different because his income is different from Dahle's (LTCG/whatever vs wages/salary), but that's not the point. Allocating money to tax-advantaged accounts isn't losing it or anything, and money for retirement or emergency or college is still money held.

Most of his points are nothing more than spending money (having a wife and kids, giving to charity) or locking it away under threat of penalties (saving for retirement and college, having a health savings account.) His only good advice is: starting a business and owning a house. I don't even know what he's trying to prove by mentioning his real estate investment because even he admits that it's "barely profitable," as if paying no tax on a barely profitable investment is somehow preferential to paying long term or short term capital gains tax on a mutual fund or whatever.

I want to see his effective tax rate minus all of the "give money away because you get a negligible tax benefit" calculations. There's no way in hell he's paying anything under 35%.

 

[Heyyy_Dr_Coco]

Well if they are research scientists, they can get their loans paid by the NIH. But clinical doctors do have the problem of out of pocket loan repayment. And to answer your question, doctors usually do not start out with private practices or make 250k a year at first. It takes em a few years to build that kind of confidence, business knowledge and clientele. If they work for a hospital, or in conjunction with an indeoendent doctor or many docs, they will probably be making less money than 250k. Thus, I think it may be virtually impossible to pay back 200k of student loans in 3 yrs. Maybe 10 yrs if they have a wife and kids.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[streampaw]

Well if they are research scientists, they can get their loans paid by the NIH. But clinical doctors do have the problem of out of pocket loan repayment. And to answer your question, doctors usually do not start out with private practices or make 250k a year at first. It takes em a few years to build that kind of confidence, business knowledge and clientele. If they work for a hospital, or in conjunction with an indeoendent doctor or many docs, they will probably be making less money than 250k. Thus, I think it may be virtually impossible to pay back 200k of student loans in 3 yrs. Maybe 10 yrs if they have a wife and kids.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

I guess I should do MSTP then.

 

[ciestar]

I guess I should do MSTP then.

Having an extra set of letters next to your name will speak nothing to anyone trying to build confidence in you as a physician. It might feed your ego, but the whole point is so patients can trust you and if suck as a doctor, nobody will want you in a private practice, let alone anywhere else. Patients gotta trust you

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I guess I should do MSTP then.

You jussst dont get it do you, you really just dont get it

 

[streampaw]

Having an extra set of letters next to your name will speak nothing to anyone trying to build confidence in you as a physician. It might feed your ego, but the whole point is so patients can trust you and if suck as a doctor, nobody will want you in a private practice, let alone anywhere else. Patients gotta trust you

The only reason I would do MSTP is so that I wouldn't have any loans, duh. Not for an extra pHD. MSTP=full ride to med school. I'd rather do 4 years of PhD than 10 years of repaying huge loan.

 

[streampaw]

You jussst dont get it do you, you really just dont get it

No, I don't. I can do MSTP for free ride

 

[circulus vitios]

You guys are getting trolled so hard. It's not even a good troll, but it's got you guys hook, line, and sinker.

 

[DrCharlemagne]

No, I don't. I can do MSTP for free ride

Worst return on your time ever.

 

[Apollo1]

I want to be a dermatologist and deal with teenagers' zits. Plus easy lifestyle+great pay.

What is so wrong with what I say? Yeah, so I want to do derm. I will enjoy it

OP, don't take my following post as a slight, but your belief in knowing what specialty you will occupy & how you will occupy it is foolish. You've mentioned earlier that you're 2 years into college & just recently turned 18, so unless some other info is missing that makes you around 16 when you started. People are the sums of their experiences, and based on what you've shared, you really don't have any legitimate experience regarding this process or life in general. It's good to have ambition, but it needs to be tempered. This site gives you such easy access to tons of healthcare professionals both out of the education process & still in it; people that have gone through what you are eyeing as your future. A good portion of the respondents are telling you to take a step back & appreciate "the forest for the trees" (look it up/yes I turned down several Top 50 law school to pursue medicine/"lawyer boyfriend" most likely won't get into BigLaw, therefore won't be able to service his debt, ergo you will struggle together), but because they don't outright validate your reasoning, you double-down and deny based on assumptions.

If you do any kind of search across this forum or other med-related ones, you'll find an abundance of physicians saying "if you think you could be happy doing anything else besides medicine, do that." I'll end my diatribe with these last words. I have an acquaintance who went to Hopkins for undergrad & is an M4 at UF & from what I understand got a great Step 1 score. I asked him about the med school process, what the life is like, how he goes through every day etc. He replied in part that it's best to "accept your own mediocrity." Continue to work hard & understand that if you get into med school, you'll most likely be like just about every other med student.

 

[streampaw]

OP, don't take my following post as a slight, but your belief in knowing what specialty you will occupy & how you will occupy it is foolish. You've mentioned earlier that you're 2 years into college & just recently turned 18, so unless some other info is missing that makes you around 16 when you started. People are the sums of their experiences, and based on what you've shared, you really don't have any legitimate experience regarding this process or life in general. It's good to have ambition, but it needs to be tempered. This site gives you such easy access to tons of healthcare professionals both out of the education process & still in it; people that have gone through what you are eyeing as your future. A good portion of the respondents are telling you to take a step back & appreciate "the forest for the trees" (look it up/yes I turned down several Top 50 law school to pursue medicine/"lawyer boyfriend" most likely won't get into BigLaw, therefore won't be able to service his debt, ergo you will struggle together), but because they don't outright validate your reasoning, you double-down and deny based on assumptions.

If you do any kind of search across this forum or other med-related ones, you'll find an abundance of physicians saying "if you think you could be happy doing anything else besides medicine, do that." I'll end my diatribe with these last words. I have an acquaintance who went to Hopkins for undergrad & is an M4 at UF & from what I understand got a great Step 1 score. I asked him about the med school process, what the life is like, how he goes through every day etc. He replied in part that it's best to "accept your own mediocrity." Continue to work hard & understand that if you get into med school, you'll most likely be like just about every other med student.

Okay. The thing is, I really just want to have a guarantee of a high salary and being able to work 30 hours a week. No other field guarantees it. I looked at dentistry, but find mouths gross, and don't like hands on work. I looked at pharmacy, but 100k a year for 45 hours a week, is not enough for me. And, those who say to go into business/banking/engineering/law for the money on this forum, well, you guys do realize that many people in those fields who work there even for 40+ years still are making only 70-80k for working 45+ hours a week? Not enough money for me. Medicine is fine, I am fine with serving patients, and I might find it fun, so I will go to medical school.

 

[Chipster.]

Goro? Lizzy M? Can you please put her in her place?

 

[SunsFun]

Okay. The thing is, I really just want to have a guarantee of a high salary and being able to work 30 hours a week. No other field guarantees it. I looked at dentistry, but find mouths gross, and don't like hands on work. I looked at pharmacy, but 100k a year for 45 hours a week, is not enough for me. And, those who say to go into business/banking/engineering/law for the money on this forum, well, you guys do realize that many people in those fields who work there even for 40+ years still are making only 70-80k for working 45+ hours a week? Not enough money for me. Medicine is fine, I am fine with serving patients, and I might find it fun, so I will go to medical school.

What happens if you don't get accepted? Your MCAT is too low or you can't get your GPA up.