Thiamine use

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leviathan

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In my province, we use thiamine prophylactically when administering dextrose to hypoglycemic patients. I know certain people are against thiamine use as a diagnostic drug (reports of anaphylactic reactions), but is there anything wrong with its co-administration with D10/D50?

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My understanding is that thiamine is used to prevent neurological deficits that chronic alcoholics get from malnutrition. So they give it in the emergency department when they have an alcoholic. Also to see if cognitive problems can be reversed from a thiamine defect. But I don't see why you would need to do that pre-hospital. It can wait till you get the patient to the ED. If the patient is hypoglycemic that's the most likely reason for them to be altered, not an underlying nutritional defect.
 
But I don't see why you would need to do that pre-hospital.

Administration of thiamine may be useful pre-hospital because carbohydrate-loading sans thiamine may lead to Wernicke's Encephalopathy. In rats, WE was suspected less than two hours after glucose administration (1).

(1) Zimitat C, Nixon P, (2000). "Glucose loading precipitates encephalopathy in thiamine-deficient rats.". Metabolic Brain Disease 14 (1): 1-10.
 
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My understanding is that thiamine is used to prevent neurological deficits that chronic alcoholics get from malnutrition. So they give it in the emergency department when they have an alcoholic. Also to see if cognitive problems can be reversed from a thiamine defect. But I don't see why you would need to do that pre-hospital. It can wait till you get the patient to the ED. If the patient is hypoglycemic that's the most likely reason for them to be altered, not an underlying nutritional defect.

As per what jkelly said, we don't give it as a diagnostic drug. It is used to prevent the development of WE, however rare that may be. The question is whether or not the benefits of preventing a rare complication outweigh the risks of giving thiamine.
 
The related question is if preventing WE is a real pre-hospital concern, or if giving the same med in the ED will lead to the same outcome.
 
Why not get EMS providers to design the study and write the grant proposal?! I'm with docB... get EMS involved in prehospital research. It'll help EMS providers better understand the research, it may legitimize the research on the street, and it will help to raise the status of EMS amongst other health care providers.
 
Why not get EMS providers to design the study and write the grant proposal?! I'm with docB... get EMS involved in prehospital research. It'll help EMS providers better understand the research, it may legitimize the research on the street, and it will help to raise the status of EMS amongst other health care providers.
Our service is already heavily involved in many studies related to the Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium, and I totally agree with you.
 
Good question

As stated, Thaimine is given before D50 to prevent Wernickie-Korsakoff Syndrome.

A major reason why it is on the Pre-hospital Protocols is because it needs to be given BEFORE the D50. You can't give D50 and wait 15 mins for the ER to give the thiamine. You also can't co-administer it into the Dextrose for this reason, not to mention the chemical reaction that would take place between the two drugs in a pre-mix. Like adminstering corticosteroids in the field, we do it because of physiology, not for immediate treatment.
As far as its use in diagnosis, with a patient found comatose, and we just cant determine why after a proper assessment, (D50/Thaimine/Narcan) can be given to rule out relative hypoglycemia, with encephalopathy, or opiate OD.

Besides the theoretical acute precipitation of WKS by dextrose administration, theres another MAJOR reason why you should err on the side of caution and give thiamine before D50 to all patients:

Thiamine is a cofactor in all the dehydrogenase reactions of glycolysis. (Remember the citric acid cycle?).

You can give all the D50 you want, but if the patient doesnt have the proportional level of thiamine to go with it, the D50 can't be metabolized. You dont know if they have enough in their system, so you can give them some more.... its just Vitamin B.

So yes, besides preventing the one case of WKS you'll ever see, know that Thiamine needs to be circulating in the patients blood before any Dextrose can be metabolized.
 
Why not get EMS providers to design the study and write the grant proposal?! I'm with docB... get EMS involved in prehospital research. It'll help EMS providers better understand the research, it may legitimize the research on the street, and it will help to raise the status of EMS amongst other health care providers.

I couldn't agree more. Ive got a feeling that a lot of folks that think this way, and then educate themselves so they can make it happen, get sidetracked along the way.

I wonder if the trend is going in the opposite direction, and we EMS professionals are losing ground in our own professions.
Theres a growing pile of research out there that is showing that EMS intervention wastes time, or does more harm than good. Some research shows this for procedeures like spinal immobilization, ET intubation, RSI, and certain prehospital treatments (such as for hypertensive crisis, or agressive diuresis).

At the same time, EMS and Fire are combining to siphon the money from the EMS who makes it, to the Fire side, who spends it. EMS is moving away from hospitals and academic centers, to the government.

On yet another front, the field of Critical Care transport is increasing in scope, and technology. Nurses have taken it by storm, and EMS is nowhere to be found out there,

Thats just some rambling to get things rolling
 
with a patient found comatose, and we just cant determine why after a proper assessment, (D50/Thaimine/Narcan) can be given to rule out relative hypoglycemia, with encephalopathy, or opiate OD.
I really don't see the value of administering D50+Thiamine "diagnostically" when we have a device that can tell us they aren't hypoglycemic. If they're above 4 mMol/L, we don't bother with dextrose admin. Yes, there is relative hypoglycemia, but that is usually going to be further back on the differential.

Besides the theoretical acute precipitation of WKS by dextrose administration, theres another MAJOR reason why you should err on the side of caution and give thiamine before D50 to all patients:

Thiamine is a cofactor in all the dehydrogenase reactions of glycolysis. (Remember the citric acid cycle?).
Really? I thought TPP was just for the conversion of pyruvate -> acetyl CoA. My biochem knowledge is slowly running away from my memory. ;)
 
I couldn't agree more. Ive got a feeling that a lot of folks that think this way, and then educate themselves so they can make it happen, get sidetracked along the way.

I wonder if the trend is going in the opposite direction, and we EMS professionals are losing ground in our own professions.
Theres a growing pile of research out there that is showing that EMS intervention wastes time, or does more harm than good. Some research shows this for procedeures like spinal immobilization, ET intubation, RSI, and certain prehospital treatments (such as for hypertensive crisis, or agressive diuresis).

At the same time, EMS and Fire are combining to siphon the money from the EMS who makes it, to the Fire side, who spends it. EMS is moving away from hospitals and academic centers, to the government.

On yet another front, the field of Critical Care transport is increasing in scope, and technology. Nurses have taken it by storm, and EMS is nowhere to be found out there,

Thats just some rambling to get things rolling

I also don't understand why some people in EMS are so against research. Maybe I'm biased since I come from a research/academic background, but some of my classmates whine and complain about the various studies we are doing, and the paperwork involved with them. Personally, I think it's awesome (the research, not their whining).
 
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I really don't see the value of administering D50+Thiamine "diagnostically" when we have a device that can tell us they aren't hypoglycemic. If they're above 4 mMol/L, we don't bother with dextrose admin. Yes, there is relative hypoglycemia, but that is usually going to be further back on the differential.


Really? I thought TPP was just for the conversion of pyruvate -> acetyl CoA. My biochem knowledge is slowly running away from my memory. ;)

You are correct sir. I was just trying to explain the diagnostic utility of the coma cocktail.... not justify it. There really is no justification for it.

Some actually argue that it does more harm than good. If a CVA or some vascularized organic brain pathology is present, administering that mess to the patient can theoretically increase the oncotic/osmotic pressure of the cerebral blood flow. The change in oncotic/osmotic pressure of cerebral blood flow would alter cerebral perfusion. (Think hyperosmolar nonketotic coma of Type2 DM)

And, Yup... Thiamine pyrophosphate is used in all of the dehydrogenase reactions, not just that one. Trust me, my biochem is rustier than yours. I happen to remember this specific point because when I learned it in M-1 biochem, it set off an explosion in my brain (So THATS why I was supposed to give thamine BEFORE D50 every time!)

I think, one of the reasons that EMS is so opposed to research, and basic science discussions such as this, is because EMS is unfortunately one of the fields where "American Anti-Intellectualism" has reared its ugly head.
 
In my province, we use thiamine prophylactically when administering dextrose to hypoglycemic patients. I know certain people are against thiamine use as a diagnostic drug (reports of anaphylactic reactions), but is there anything wrong with its co-administration with D10/D50?

* You can't have an anaphalactic reaction to B1. Maybe to something else in the solution. That is like saying you have anaphalaxis to oxygen. Such a person would not be able to live.

* The whole Werniecke encephalopathy is pretty sketchy, and to be honest the research I found suggested it may not exist.

* The biggest problem with giving D50 to an alcoholic is that they may have pyruvate dehydrogenase deficiency secondary to thiamine defiency (a cofactor of this enzyme). If they are deficient, then pyruvate shunts to lactate and they become acidotic. My question is does giving thiamine do anything in the short term? I can't see how it could instantaneously solve the problem by creating new enzyme. I can see thiamine helping from 12 hours to days, but not in the short term.

My suspicion is that Weirniecke-Korsokoff psychosis is a bunch of **** from a biochemical perspective and from the fact I've given D50 to thousands of alcoholics and none of them have freaked out on me.
 
* You can't have an anaphalactic reaction to B1. Maybe to something else in the solution. That is like saying you have anaphalaxis to oxygen. Such a person would not be able to live.
Bingo...there are people allergic to epinephrine, glucagon, and other emergency meds too. It is due to the solution they are mixed in.

* The whole Werniecke encephalopathy is pretty sketchy, and to be honest the research I found suggested it may not exist.
That's what I've thought too...but for whatever reason, failing to give thiamine before the dextrose bolus runs through is a big no-no around here. I think you should exercise a bit of common sense facing an apparently well nourished individual who, for example, is a diabetic who has a little mishap with their insulin dosing and goes hypoglycemic on you. Thankfully, things are changing soon where protocols are switching over to guidelines, and words such as 'consider' will be all over the place. That said, it only takes a few extra seconds to draw up some B1, and the risks are pretty much nil with the exception of the theoretical hypotension which can result from it being given too quickly.
 
The suggestion that the administration of thiamine should precede the administration of D50W to prevent the precipitation of acute Wernicke's encephalopathy is unfounded.2 The most important management issue with both D50W and thiamine is that both should be given in a timely manner in the emergency department so that these often occult diagnoses are added to the differential diagnosis and are treated promptly.

-Tintinalli's Emergency Medicine, Section 14 Toxicology and Pharmacology, Chapter 156 General Management of Poisoned Patients

Thus, the evidence supports neither the need to precede glucose administration with thiamine nor the use of oral thiamine. The established biochemical link between the 2 substances reminds clinicians that their contemporaneous administration is desirable. It is our experience that if the first provider fails to give parenteral thiamine at the time of glucose administration, thiamine is often forgotten. We cannot advocate any delay in glucose delivery while awaiting thiamine administration.

-Hack JB, Hoffman RS: Thiamine before glucose to prevent Wernicke encephalopathy: Examining the conventional wisdom. JAMA 279:583, 1998.

Thiamine pyrophosphate is found in the E1 portion of pyruvate dehydrogenase and the E1 portion of alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase and is also in transketolase of the pentose phosphate pathway.

Anyway, we don't use the coma cocktail. We check the glucometer and give dextrose if needed and check pupils and resp rate to consider narcan. If we suspect multiple drug use we can give narcan even if pupils and resp don't point us in that directions. And we never give just thiamine diagnostically. I think the whole coma cocktail was useful back before glucometers because it was some medications that can have positive benifits without worrying too much about any risks. As for the whole thiamine question, I consider it a "non-emergency" drug. As in, if it waits until after everything else or even if it waits till the pt gets to the ER it is not a big deal and has never really been pressed in the systems I have worked in.
 
I don't think Thiamine should be used prehospital. Hypoglycemia should be treated with glucose and fear of the vanishingly rare complication of Wernickie's should not prevent it. It would be similar to witholding CPR because it can break ribs.

Add to that the cost to train, stock and administer the drug and the opportunity cost of losing training on something more likely to help someone and I think the weight favors discontinuation.
 
Add to that the cost to train, stock and administer the drug and the opportunity cost of losing training on something more likely to help someone and I think the weight favors discontinuation.
Where would you recommend money be spent in place of thiamine? AFAIK it's a relatively cheap medication with a long shelf life.
 
Where would you recommend money be spent in place of thiamine? AFAIK it's a relatively cheap medication with a long shelf life.
Yes it's cheap but there is a cost to stocking it, checking inventory, training on it, documenting on it and so on. The benefit of it is negligible so IMO any costs incurred to deliver it are wasted. Devote those wasted resources to anything else. We just had a discussion on unrecognized esophageal intubations and many people felt that training was the answer. Put the savings toward training on that.
 
Yes it's cheap but there is a cost to stocking it, checking inventory, training on it, documenting on it and so on. The benefit of it is negligible so IMO any costs incurred to deliver it are wasted. Devote those wasted resources to anything else. We just had a discussion on unrecognized esophageal intubations and many people felt that training was the answer. Put the savings toward training on that.

Duly noted...funny how much S*#@ I got in during a simulated call for not giving thiamine to a hypoglycemic diabetic. Maybe I could understand if it was a chronic alcoholic or otherwise generally malnourished person that was found down.
 
First, WE is a recognized complication of IV D50 administration in malnourished or intoxicated persons. The national standard of care is that patients recieve Thiamine before administration of D50 if there is doubt as to the etiology of the hypoglycemic state. This is in Harrison's, the Washington Manual, the CMDT, and Cecil's Textbook of medicine. (Diamond)

Second, you will be found negligent in a court of law if you do not meet the standard of care as a "reasonable and prudent person." There have been many suits and many claims paid in regard to the negligence of a physician allowing a patient to suffer needlessly from WE. A recent case occured in FL. (Jacksonville Times Union)

Third, there are repeated and irrefutable case studies in widely read and peer reviewed journals that have documented WE in patients not recieving Thiamine prior to D50 administration.... the NEJM being one. There is also a known mechanism by which this occurs. (Kaineg)

Fourth, there is an exceedingly rare instance of case studied anaphylactic reaction to Thiamine. It has been documented in rather obscure journals, not widely recognized in the United States. This is somewhere along the line of 1:100,000 administrations and the case studies I read were in countries with less stringent guidlines for medication quality control than the US. Additionally, anaphylais is reversable in the healthcare setting where Thiamine would be administered. WE is not. (Leung)

Take from this what you will.

Diamond I: Nutritional disorders of the Nervous System. In: Cecil RL, Goldman L, Bennett JC, eds. Cecil Textbook of Medicine. 19th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: WB Saunders Co; 1992: 2125-2128.

Al-Sanouri I, Dikin M, Soubani AO: Critical care aspects of alcohol abuse. South Med J 2005 Mar; 98(3): 372-81

Kaineg, Brian. Wernicke's Encephalopathy. N Engl J Med. 2005 May 12;352(19):e18.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072407/met_186496616.shtml

Leung R, Puy R, Czarny D. Thiamine anaphylaxis. Med J Aust 1993;159(5):355.
 
I'd be interested in debating this later because I have a test in a few hours, but ...

There is no way that not giving thiamine prehospitally is outside of standard of care. You saying that is so completely out of left field I think you need to reexamine how many systems actually carry thiamine.

D50 is given so frequently without complications I think if Wernickies does exist, it classifies as a extremely rare event that does not justify the cost of treating EVERY hypoglycemic patient with B1. Also, remember we are taking about the emergency treatment of hypoglycemia.

EMS is not about hunting Zebras, it is about finding and treating common reversible emergency life threating conditions. In EMS we don't give medications for Zebras and that is what I believe you are arguing for.

I'll do more research later, but I appreciate the dissenting view.

No one reading this board should feel that if they are an EMS provider, they are at any legal risk by not giving thiamine.
 
I don't believe that thiamine prior to glucose is the standard of care pre hospital and inside the doors it's something to be considered in certain populations ie. alcoholics. WC is reversible. Yes, if you let an unrecognized WC go for a long time without giving thiamine you could get burned. I still think that the effort and cost required to extend thiamine to EMS would be better spent elsewhere.
 
When presented with a patient with altered mental status of unkown etiology, thiamine before glucose administration is the standard of care all the textbooks I have perused. I urge you to check the resources cited in my above post if you doubt this. As well, it is the in-hospital standard of care in the Savannah area where I rode the squad for eight years, in the Augusta area where I rode the squad and attended medical school, and in the North East Tennessee area where I have been a resident.
It is -not- the prehospital standard of care. Thiamine is not expensive, but there is a drastic shortage of perenteral Thiamine nationwide. It is an orphan drug with too thin a profit marign for pharmaceutical companies to waste resources on production. (Kumar) Therefore, it is an unfortunate reality that ambulances cannot carry it on a routine basis. That does not mean it would not be a good idea, but I defer to my colleagues managing the day-to-day operation of an EM service in not stocking it on the ambulances.
I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. I can see how my comments may have been taken to mean that I was saying Thiamine before glucose was the prehospital standard of care. It is not. This is in part to the logistics issue mentioned above, and in part to the highly unlikely rapid onset of WE in the acute setting. As mentioned in the prior post, if caught within the first couple of hours, Wernicke’s pscyhosis can be reversed. However, Wernicke's Encephalopathy cannot be reversed once the anatomic changes visible on MRI have occurred.
By the way, I would call the abnormal hyperintensity of the mamillary bodies and periaqueductal gray matter scene in the NEJM article from 2005 as irrefutable evidence of WE. But I am a simple man who tends to take radiologic evidence of anatomic change in a textbook pattern as gospel. I suppose that is a limitation on my part. If you know of any article refuting the existance of WE, please post it here or forward it to me as a PM. This is an area of interest for me as a budding Behavioral Neurologist and I would appreciate the insight.
 
I remembered... I have seen a case of WKS. To me, that means its not a zebra.
 
Where would you recommend money be spent in place of thiamine? AFAIK it's a relatively cheap medication with a long shelf life.

Given that the incidence of WE is around 0.2% (depending on where you find your data), we'd probably get more public health bang for the buck if we fortified flour like Australia.
 
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