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I mean if he's spending that much time studying the first two years I can sort of understand why he would think 3rd year is so much better.
However, I do agree with the OP in that it really sucks for the med student to do the H&P after everyone else has. If the disease isn't so time sensitive that the resident/attending need to get in there immediately, it's a lot nicer to let the student do it first. The patient starts getting pretty grouchy by the end. If they're answering a question for the 5th time, it goes over a lot easier when it's the attending surgeon asking rather than the M3.For the OP, everything on your list is petty EXCEPT asking you to write an H&P. That is a critical academic exercise and you haven't done it enough to claim that you can't learn from doing it again.
All the time.Yes they do, and thankfully there are attendings and residents that recognize that.
Oh man, thank God you came in here to set us all straight. We had no idea how hard it was to be an M1/M2 until you provided this useful information. I repent of my ways and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.Jesus Christ stop complaining. it beats sitting in front of a laptop for 10 hours/day studying all the time like in 1st and 2nd years. I know there is still some studying to do in 3rd and 4th years, but nothing like during the 1st 2 years! I am a second year and cannot WAIT for clinicals. I'm so tired of sitting in front of a laptop all day everyday.
I've talked to many 3rd and 4th years too and they all say clinicals are WAAAY better than the first 2 years since you are actually in the hospital working with people. They said it's more time consuming but still way better than studying in front of a laptop all day. Stop complaining.
Third year blows.
Oh wait. I mean you blow in third year.
I hope you like the taste of figurative penis.
You really have to have a good attitude both to enjoy 3rd year and to do well in 3rd year. If you are enthusiastic, you work hard, and you try to help the team, for the most part people will like you and treat you well. Your clinical grade will reflect that relationship. When you show up late, fall asleep during table rounds, are always asking for meal break or to go home, etc...well, you are showing just how disinterested you are. Don't be surprised when no one feels like teaching you, and they just forget you are there. Don't be surprised when you don't honor the rotation.
it beats sitting in front of a laptop for 10 hours/day studying all the time like in 1st and 2nd years. I know there is still some studying to do in 3rd and 4th years, but nothing like during the 1st 2 years! I am a second year and cannot WAIT for clinicals. I'm so tired of sitting in front of a laptop all day everyday.
I've talked to many 3rd and 4th years too and they all say clinicals are WAAAY better than the first 2 years since you are actually in the hospital working with people. They said it's more time consuming but still way better than studying in front of a laptop all day. Stop complaining.
If you're going to judge I'm going to do the same and wonder why you were studying 10 hrs a day preclinically especially during 1st year.
Oh man, thank God you came in here to set us all straight. We had no idea how hard it was to be an M1/M2 until you provided this useful information. I repent of my ways and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Masterful!Third year blows.
Oh wait. I mean you blow in third year.
I hope you like the taste of figurative penis.
If you're going to judge I'm going to do the same and wonder why you were studying 10 hrs a day preclinically especially during 1st year.
Studying 10 hours/day includes all my time spent at "school" too. I podcast everything. 3 hours of computer = podcasting lectures, 3-6 hours/day of studying depending on if they are anatomy lectures. My school has our curriculum split into organ system-based modules. So we have anatomy spread over the first 2 years. The first week of every module is 100% anatomy which takes twice as long to study compared to normal lectures. We're doing head&neck right now and those anatomy lectures have been 3 hours each to study. So, it's really anywhere from 6-10 hours/day on the computer. That's what it takes to honor in everything, though. Yes I could study half as much and just pass with a 72% but I want those honors.
Been doing this schedule for over a year now and definitely getting tired of it. Still beats going to class, though. Very much looking forward to clinicals! 80% of the class, every year, podcasts. Every 3rd and 4th year I've talked to say clinicals are waaaay better.
As someone who studied a lot (not nearly as much as you during m1 but maybe late m2) and achieved the goals you currently you have, 3rd year is not some oasis and while some like it more, others hate even more. It's a big adjustment to the subjective grading and regimented schedule.
Given that you're still doing anatomy as a M2, I can understand why you are looking forward to clinicals though. Just don't put it on a pedestal, it's still med school
how much did you study then? We have 3 hours of lecture in the morning and then labs a few afternoons a week. The average lecture probably takes a good hour to go over, but the anatomy ones always take 2-3 hours. So on top of class that's studying anywhere from 3-6 hours. Honestly, it's usually closer to 4. If you keep that up during the week then your weekends are free (except for the week before tests once a month). I can't imagine being able to study much less than 3 hours/day and still honor in everything. How often did you study?
It also sounds like that at schools with traditional curriculums M1 year is not that much worse than undergrad. At my school, M1 year actually matters for boards so you start that "M2 type studying" during 1st year. For example, we covered cardiopulm, GI, renal endocrine, and urogenital all in 1st year. When we cover an organ system, we learn all the histology, anatomy, physiology, pathology, etc. all at once during that 1-2 month module before moving on. The workload really does change a lot from week to week. During the first and second week of each module, we have all the anatomy for that organ system. Each of those days does require like 6 hours of studying on top of classes. The 3rd and 4th weeks, though, lighten up and you only need to study 2-3 hours per day. Then the 5th week is usually the 12 hour study days for the test.
Trust but verify. Furthermore, you're apparently too green to have realized this, but patients change their stories, a lot. What you heard may be different from what they here. Also, the resident may also be putting a fairly subtle spin on your question, such that you think they're asking the same thing, even though it's a little different.
Usually though, I'll walk in and say something to the effect of "So I understand that you've had 3 days of abd pain, is that right?"
Is 3rd year any better for people who worked terrible jobs in their past? I want to believe that I will still be able to say "This sucks, but at least I'm not doing ___ anymore" in 3rd year. It's worked okay for me to this point (2nd year).
3rd year blows if you like to sleep
Let me relieve the stress of wondering for you: it is.I hate the stress of wondering whether my worth as a student is being judged on my PERSONALITY.
Let me relieve the stress of wondering for you: it is.
If your personality sucks, it sure is!
lol, only in medicine do people complain about the impact of their personality on their job performance...Well I'm just super passive sometimes. And easily intimidated. I think I'm pretty ok overall.
It isn't just the stories that change, the physical exam can change rather dramatically as well. I spent some time on a consult team during my neurology rotation and one day I was sent to see a patient with altered mental status. I went and examined the patient and he was pretty unresponsive. When I presented the patient to my intern I was talking about the patient's glasgow coma score and whether he localized to pain or withdrew with pain in each extremity and which CN reflexes were intact and which ones were not. When the intern and I walked in to the room to examine the patient together, the patient was awake and talking and alert and oriented times 3 and scored a 28 on the MMSE. Upon leaving the patient's room I received a condescending lecture on how I needed to wake patients up before attempting to perform the neuro exam on them.This is insanely annoying. I get irritated too when I present and then go in with the attending and he asks all the same questions. But sometimes the patient will answer completely differently. I'm always shocked and look at them like "WTF dude, that isn't what you said 10 minutes ago!" but they never seem to even bat an eye.
I hated most of 3rd year. Long days and even being on call when you serve no purpose whatsoever. What a waste of my time. But 4th year is much better so far. On my heavy rotations I've actually gotten to do most of the work myself, and otherwise you're able to slack more or go home if you aren't busy.
Is 3rd year any better for people who worked terrible jobs in their past? I want to believe that I will still be able to say "This sucks, but at least I'm not doing ___ anymore" in 3rd year. It's worked okay for me to this point (2nd year).
My least favorite by far is sitting there doing nothing for hours on end waiting for someone to let me go home.
lol, only in medicine do people complain about the impact of their personality on their job performance...
It isn't just the stories that change, the physical exam can change rather dramatically as well. I spent some time on a consult team during my neurology rotation and one day I was sent to see a patient with altered mental status. I went and examined the patient and he was pretty unresponsive. When I presented the patient to my intern I was talking about the patient's glasgow coma score and whether he localized to pain or withdrew with pain in each extremity and which CN reflexes were intact and which ones were not. When the intern and I walked in to the room to examine the patient together, the patient was awake and talking and alert and oriented times 3 and scored a 28 on the MMSE. Upon leaving the patient's room I received a condescending lecture on how I needed to wake patients up before attempting to perform the neuro exam on them.
I was rather nervous presenting to the attending, but I stuck to what I had seen and presented the exam at both time points and I was much relieved (I feel like a horrible person for admitting this) when we walked into the room as an entire team and the patient was back to being unresponsive except to pain.
Overall I have enjoyed third year but I have had pretty good luck getting awesome senior residents on my teams that are interested in teaching and only having me be at the hospital while it is actually possible for me to learn something.
This is what happens when you have a bunch of kids who never worked a day in their life and whose sole means of evaluation of self-worth has been via scantrons.
This thread makes me sad!
Most people at my school seem to agree that third year is excellent compared to the first two (but certainly not as nice as 4th year). I've just finished IM and OB/GYN and I'm having a great time learning and getting to do procedures with attendings that are interested in teaching and let me get as involved as I want to even though I don't want to go into either field.
Maybe we just have a different experience at my school but I'm loving the hard work and long hours because I get to see patients and actually participate in their care!
This year so far has just confirmed for me why I want to be a doctor after my feelings of boredom sitting around and studying all day for the first two.
Christ, you sound like a self-improvement video for med students or something.I'm loving the hard work and long hours because I get to see patients and actually participate in their care!
Christ, you sound like a self-improvement video for med students or something.
Haha as cheesy as that sounds it's true. I probably could have phrased that in a more "how real people without scripts talk" fashion but oh well. I'm one of those weird people that gets a boosted sense of accomplishment from long hours and harder work.
Call me a cynic, but "participate in their care" is very, very relative. We're M3s.
I've had a number of attendings and residents ask me to make a plan for a patient and then modify it because of my lack of experience/knowledge. It doesn't always happen because there isn't always time for it but in more than a handful of instances my plan for a patient (with minor adjustments) has been what was done for the patient or my input (and more time to talk with the patient during the H&P) has modified the treatment plan made by a physician. Maybe I've just been fortunate to have attendings who get a kick out of teaching.
Yes we ARE M3s but why should we be expecting to be serving roles like attendings/residents or just leaving the hospital to study after rounds? I enjoy checking in on my patients in the afternoons, following them to procedures, asking to do minor procedures that a nurse or resident would breeze through, and looking up things I don't understand in my downtime.
I know it's fun/cathartic to gripe and moan about our very minor role as 3rd years, but it's way better than the first two years sleep. It's pretty freakin awesome to be in medical school and have the capacity to become physicians
No no, I understand, it was similar for me when I was on medicine. I just had no delusions about being all that important, especially since any assessment/plan I cooked up was for my own learning, not for actually formulating a plan of care in the sense that the staff and junior staff do it in half the time. I'm also currently resenting surgery, out of which I have yet to get a fraction of what I got out of medicine, so I'll attribute any beat down-ness in this post to that. In retrospect, medicine >> surgery thus far in multiple ways.
Sounds a lot like my experience so far. I agree that I have no illusions about being important but I enjoy being involved in the way I am. I have surgery next so maybe I'll be a cold hearted cynic afterwards (although hopefully not b/c I hear if you like being in the OR surgery at my school is great and I certainly love the OR).
I love standing under burning lights with nothing to do while the real doctors work and I often can't even see what's going on.
Yup.
Buck up chum. Lots of people would gladly take your place given the chance.
I have had a lot of fun in surgeries so far as a student. Mileage varies from attending to attending of course but I guess I've just had an exceptional experience so far.
Buck up chum. Lots of people would gladly take your place given the chance.
I have had a lot of fun in surgeries so far as a student. Mileage varies from attending to attending of course but I guess I've just had an exceptional experience so far.
I don't know if you think they're going to pass you a scalpel, but surgery sucked ass. Especially OBGYN surgery. Yeah I want to sit there for 4 hours in the back of the room scrubbed in holding my hands above my waist while not touching a god damn thing while you deliver a uterus out of some lady's vagina. Yeah I can totally see what you're doing and not just the back of your head. Remind me why you made me scrub in again? Because my back hurts and I hate all of you bitches. But I doubt you'll be bitter. God just thinking back on that crap makes me so angry...
Edit: Lol, I wrote this before I read your other post about how you enjoyed OBGYN surgery so much. I promise I just hated it, not a personal attack.