Think medical school is for you? You’re probably wrong

[DermViser]

Some valid comments and observations that she has had, but the article has painted pre-meds in a very generalized way, which is not accurate at all.

Though I will say, the "going to school to continue academics and delay the real-world" rings a bit true. I am a student in nature, but good thing I've had real world experience in college.

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[chillinillinkillin007]

First off, DV is a dude.

Second, I'd chill with the personal assaults. DV is a solid contributor to this forum that was posting an interesting article for debate and dissection.

fair enough. I retract my last comment. But still, DV get off pre-allo and enjoy your life seriously. why in the world do you care what premeds think? your past that stage and far gone

 

[lmn]

fair enough. I retract my last comment. But still, DV get off pre-allo and enjoy your life seriously. why in the world do you care what premeds think? your past that stage and far gone

Seriously just stop talking, you're telling a member who posts many useful insights and information to stop posting because they have gone through the pre-allo stage and made it into, through, and beyond med school and residency? Surely that doesn't mean they'll have great insight to share with premeds... Can you please stop posting stupid things like this?

 

[Taco Time]

Oh boy, I love it when these articles/threads come up. The boundaries of pessimism and realism seem to overlap and any optimism is scoffed at. Unless I'm getting paid millions to suit up for 8 months of the year while only having to work until I'm 35 years old, sign me up. I'd rather play in the NBA or the Champions League but that's not happening. Until then, I actually enjoy what medicine entails and its scope and have relevant, life-changing experiences because of some outstanding physicians. The article fails by declaring that medicine is entirely unworthy of pursuing if you're not a Mother Teresa persona. Nonetheless, I agree that every person needs to take a hard look when deciding if medicine is worth pursuing.

 

[Aerus]

fair enough. I retract my last comment. But still, DV get off pre-allo and enjoy your life seriously. why in the world do you care what premeds think? your past that stage and far gone

If everyone who was past the premed stage stopped posting in pre-allo, then pre-allo would just be a center for trading misinformation.

 

[ace12345]

Agree with the comments about you being a solid contributor, so I really hope you're playing devil's advocate for this article. It is complete uninformed nonsense from a writer of questionable credibility, intentions. Not to mention a whole lot of generalizing.

 

[DermViser]

fair enough. I retract my last comment. But still, DV get off pre-allo and enjoy your life seriously. why in the world do you care what premeds think? your past that stage and far gone

Feel free to click the ignore button. This has nothing to do with caring what premeds think. It's called spurring debate and discussion.

 

[Mad Jack]

fair enough. I retract my last comment. But still, DV get off pre-allo and enjoy your life seriously. why in the world do you care what premeds think? your past that stage and far gone

If you stay here long enough, SDN steals a part of your soul and you're never allowed to leave. And, as was stated above, residents and medical students provide the most valuable information and advice present in pre-allo.

 

[DermViser]

Agree with the comments about you being a solid contributor, so I really hope you're playing devil's advocate for this article. It is complete uninformed nonsense from a writer of questionable credibility and intentions.

In a way, yes. Also curious if any of you think (the ones that don't have their minds completely locked) whether she raises some very good points. If medicine didn't have the paycheck at the end which is required esp. with the level of debt to get to that stage, would it be worth doing?

 

[DermViser]

Seriously just stop talking, you're telling a member who posts many useful insights and information to stop posting because they have gone through the pre-allo stage and made it into, through, and beyond med school and residency? Surely that doesn't mean they'll have great insight to share with premeds... Can you please stop posting stupid things like this?

If only we had more "Would you eat a poop hot dog thread to get into medical school?" threads, I'm sure he would find those more helpful.

 

[Mad Jack]

In a way, yes. Also curious if any of you think (the ones that don't have their minds completely locked) whether she raises some very good points. If medicine didn't have the paycheck at the end which is required esp. with the level of debt to get to that stage, would it be worth doing?

There would always be somebody willing to do it. It would just attract a different group of "somebodies." As always, I point to vet school, which has horrible job prospects at graduation, starting salaries of 50k, and graduating dent that commonly suits around 300k and yet they keep applying and vet school is more competitive than ever.

 

[DermViser]

There would always be somebody willing to do it. It would just attract a different group of "somebodies." As always, I point to vet school, which has horrible job prospects at graduation, starting salaries of 50k, and graduating dent that commonly suits around 300k and yet they keep applying and vet school is more competitive than ever.

Vet school also doesn't have the lifestyle that medicine has (time commitment education wise and daily schedule).

 

[deleted407021]

In a way, yes. Also curious if any of you think (the ones that don't have their minds completely locked) whether she raises some very good points. If medicine didn't have the paycheck at the end which is required esp. with the level of debt to get to that stage, would it be worth doing?

I do my best to remain neutral and I may not support or contradict the following sentiments.

What's the point of asking such questions? That is always brought up; would you still do it if it didn't pay the same dividends? That doesn't really make sense. How would the milieu be different in a situation where doctors didn't make as much money as they do now? Would doctors still hold the same place in society? Would they still have the social impact they do now? It doesn't seem like enough just to propose a hypothetical without introducing a realistic framework upon which it can be placed.

 

[DermViser]

I do my best to remain neutral and I may not support or contradict the following sentiments.

What's the point of asking such questions? That is always brought up; would you still do it if it didn't pay the same dividends? That doesn't really make sense. How would the milieu be different in a situation where doctors didn't make as much money as they do now? Would doctors still hold the same place in society? Would they still have the social impact they do now? It doesn't seem like enough just to propose a hypothetical without introducing a realistic framework upon which it can be placed.

If physicians didn't have the pay to where it was a possibility to actually pay back student loans, you don't think that would affect people's calculations on whether to go into the field?

 

[Mad Jack]

Vet school also doesn't have the lifestyle that medicine has (time commitment education wise and daily schedule).

I'm still pretty sure somebody would do it though. Foolish idealists that want to save the world regardless of the personal cost are a dime a dozen. If we had a European health care model in which physicians are compensated substantially less but also work reasonable hours and have little to no student debt, even I would probably still go into the field. But I'm kind of nuts, so there's that.

 

[Microglia]

Usually the PhD in an MD/PhD program has to be a science.

Nowadays not so much. We have quite a few non-science PhD's in our MSTP. It's pretty interesting, actually.

Edit: replied before realizing this convo already played out haha. Time to get off SDN and sleep..

 

[allantois]

I want to point out that there are practicing physicians in foreign (and I'm not talking about Africa, just look up how much a doctor makes in Czech Republic) countries who make very little; yet it's unheard of for medicine to be an uncompetitive field anywhere on the globe. The real issue with the US is, are you going to get the brightest students into medicine if it's not paid well enough?

Here's some data: (bear in mind those are monthly compensation figures)
http://medlines.org/they-pay-less-f...s-than-other-workers-medical-salaries-europe/

I actually was first thinking about a career in medicine back when I was a middle school student in a country where physicians barely make $1000 a month.

Btw, don't think that cost of living in Eastern Europe is that much less than in the US. It's perhaps more expensive to live in Prague than in 80% of US cities.

 

[deleted407021]

If physicians didn't have the pay to where it was a possibility to actually pay back student loans, you don't think that would affect people's calculations on whether to go into the field?

I didn't say that. I'm suggesting that it isn't entirely telling to rely on such a one dimensional hypothetical. Sure, people may say "I'd just do something else", but they would be neglectful of other contributive factors in such a scenario. Most physicians around the world (I'll assume 1st world) make much less than American physicians, in part because the system in which they work is very different.

 

[EMDO2018]

The thing about being a non trad is you realize how sweet a gig medicine really is. Nowadays everybody works 60-70 hr weeks, has a ton of paperwork to do, and has to put up with hostile ungrateful clients ( I use to be a teacher ). I was putting up with all this bullcrap as a teacher and getting paid 30k a year. I would be at the school from 7-4, grade papers from 4-6, do lesson plans from 6-8, that's a 13 hr work day, not to mention you have to deal with discipline problems in children, classroom management, crazy parents, being on your feet lecturing all day, administrative bullcrap, and the list goes on. Everybody gets kicked and spat on, but at least in medicine they pay you 200k+ to deal with it.


And what the hell does a history grad student know about med school admissions. Most likely she is "jelly."

 

[greenlion]

Are you people so self-deluded that you can't fathom this article applying to a not-insignificant portion of premeds? Especially the non-trads who previously didn't enjoy studying sciences but saw how the real world was (myself included).
Author is right- security, money, prestige sums it up very well. You put in a lot of effort jumping through pre-determined hoops and your reward is a virtually guaranteed upper-middle class income for life and the automatic respect of your fellow man. And you didn't have to do anything unique or very special or take a huge risk with no guaranteed payoff. It's a good deal that attracts people. Duh.

 

[DermViser]

The thing about being a non trad is you realize how sweet a gig medicine really is. Nowadays everybody works 60-70 hr weeks, has a ton of paperwork to do, and has to put up with hostile ungrateful clients ( I use to be a teacher ). I was putting up with all this bullcrap as a teacher and getting paid 30k a year. I would be at the school from 7-4, grade papers from 4-6, do lesson plans from 6-8, that's a 13 hr work day, not to mention you have to deal with discipline problems in children, classroom management, crazy parents, being on your feet lecturing all day, administrative bullcrap, and the list goes on. Everybody gets kicked and spat on, but at least in medicine they pay you 200k+ to deal with it.


And what the hell does a history grad student know about med school admissions. Most likely she is "jelly."

I didn't know parents could sue you for malpractice for not teaching their kid well...Oh wait, they can't. Weekends off and summers off, most would kill to have that as part of their job.

 

[allantois]

It's interesting that if go on allnurses.com or even pre-pharmacy forum of SDN or talk to any PAs, you will most likely hear their elevated opinions of themselves. But with pre-allo everything is different; here you have people arguing that they have spent their life outside of "real world" but yet there's nothing special or unique about it they say

 

[Perrotfish]

nvm

 

[EMDO2018]

I didn't know parents could sue you for malpractice for not teaching their kid well...Oh wait, they can't. Weekends off and summers off, most would kill to have that as part of their job.

A lot of doctors don't work weekends. And that "summer off" is more like 4 weeks, the rest of the summer there are training sessions, inservices, meetings and a lot of other bullcrap. It becomes painfully obvious most of you med students and residents complaining about how bad medicine is have never had a real job before.

 

[deleted407021]

I didn't know parents could sue you for malpractice for not teaching their kid well...Oh wait, they can't. Weekends off and summers off, most would kill to have that as part of their job.

They can falsely accuse you of child abuse, spread slander and leverage the board of education in a way that pushes you out of an entire county and tarnishes your reputation. Also, many teachers work weekends for free.

And, yes. They can sue you to within an inch of your sanity.

 

[lmn]

A lot of doctors don't work weekends. And that "summer off" is more like 4 weeks, the rest of the summer there are training sessions, inservices, meetings and a lot of other bullcrap. It becomes painfully obvious most of you med students and residents complaining about how bad medicine is have never had a real job before.

Teaching has its own challenges but it really is overstating the fact of how hard it is when you can have full credits/master level teaching at a highschool and be pulling in over $70k/yr (100k+ if you teach at private schools) in my area and have a multiple month long summer break where you can even take on a higher paying (per hour) summer school gig to boost your income. Not to mention the huge amount of holidays/days off during the academic year. Ya teaching definitely does have its huge challenges and most can't do it, but it isn't like it is oh so terrible for what it is. Although I will give you that primary school teachers see much less of a salary to make it really that viable of an option to be a primary supporter of a family.

 

[DermViser]

A lot of doctors don't work weekends. And that "summer off" is more like 4 weeks, the rest of the summer there are training sessions, inservices, meetings and a lot of other bullcrap. It becomes painfully obvious most of you med students and residents complaining about how bad medicine is have never had a real job before.

You apparently don't know what being on call is.

 

[DermViser]

They can falsely accuse you of child abuse, spread slander and leverage the board of education in a way that pushes you out of an entire county and tarnishes your reputation. Also, many teachers work weekends for free.

And, yes. They can sue you to within an inch of your sanity.

Yes, bc that happens all the time.

 

[DermViser]

Are you people so self-deluded that you can't fathom this article applying to a not-insignificant portion of premeds? Especially the non-trads who previously didn't enjoy studying sciences but saw how the real world was (myself included).
Author is right- security, money, prestige sums it up very well. You put in a lot of effort jumping through pre-determined hoops and your reward is a virtually guaranteed upper-middle class income for life and the automatic respect of your fellow man. And you didn't have to do anything unique or very special or take a huge risk with no guaranteed payoff. It's a good deal that attracts people. Duh.

Thank you. The ridiculousness of premeds saying they'd do all of what the work entails WITHOUT any of the rest: security, money, prestige or a combo of all of them, is absolutely hilarious which shows they're either delusional or absolutely lying.

 

[deleted407021]

Yes, bc that happens all the time.

Your unfounded and brusque denial of my claim has no bearing upon the reality that many educators face. If you want to have a discussion, you need to be open to what people have to say and curtail your need to brush off their statements as being blown out of proportion or otherwise unreliable. I have first hand account of these things happening to a number of educators, in both regular ed and special ed settings.

However, if you came here with confirmation bias, I see no reason to go on about this with you.

 

[CpnClwVie]

Thank you. The ridiculousness of premeds saying they'd do all of what the work entails WITHOUT any of the rest: security, money, prestige or a combo of all of them, is absolutely hilarious which shows they're either delusional or absolutely lying.

Ok so heres some input from a more realistic premed. Altruism and interests aside, job security is a major reason I am doing this and I think people understate the importance of it. The girl in the article raises fair points but it's not as if its anything revolutionary people don't already know deep down. Yeah I do hate uncertainty and I do hate failure but no I dont need someone being thankful for what I do. I don't see why you seem so upset by the masses of premeds here saying they dont care about job security, prestige, or money when you yourself have been through it and you know it is self sabotage to say otherwise.

 

[G_Marker]

When this article talks about burnout it fails to mention PTSD, which is prevalent among physicians. Not to mention, when office interns get the wrong flavor coffee, their actions don't make someone sicker... or dead. I hardly think that this burn out is because of the "real world." There are many more contributing factors, and residents can be treated really horribly.

This author does nothing to establish their credibility, either. Just how does this person know anything about medicine?

 

[Doctor Dream]

Few things here IMO...
1) The author may lack some credentials, but still brings up solid points. Sure, she seems bitter, but her thoughts on physician unhappiness and suicide seem valid to me
2) @DermViser , not sure why people are telling you to stop posting in pre-allo, I enjoy reading your thoughts/advice. SDN pre-allo would be worthless to me if med students/residents/attendings didn't post.
3) DermViser has a right to say pre-meds can't accurately comment on certain topics regarding med school/medicine in general. He's experienced things first-hand pre-meds know nothing about and won't until they go through med school/residency themselves

 

[deleted480308]

I'm all for dropping the pretense that we don't want money...schools want $40k in tuition each year, the bank wants interest....I want money too

I'll earn by providing a skillset but I want money for my effort

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

In a way, yes. Also curious if any of you think (the ones that don't have their minds completely locked) whether she raises some very good points. If medicine didn't have the paycheck at the end which is required esp. with the level of debt to get to that stage, would it be worth doing?

As a non-trad with "real-world" experience (whatever that really means), I think it is even harder for us to not mention that job security is a part of the equation. Even if it is not the main driving force, knowing what the job market is like, it would be foolish NOT to consider it. Doctors are paid well, they aren't nuns who serve and just have their needs taken care of.

 

[NickNaylor]

As a non-trad with "real-world" experience (whatever that really means), I think it is even harder for us to not mention that job security is a part of the equation. Even if it is not the main driving force, knowing what the job market is like, it would be foolish NOT to consider it. Doctors are paid well, they aren't nuns who serve and just have their needs taken care of.

Indeed, but that is pretty much the portrait you are more or less expected to portray during the admissions process.

 

[Lamel]

I mean job wise, exploring different career paths, getting corporate and service job exposure etc.

 

[terp720]

this article speaks to me.... i did in fact have mono during freshman year

But really.. her argument just makes me wonder how much of her decision to turn down her acceptance was just pre-matriculation jitters and nervousness about doing something unknown and worrying about failing/not being the best in medical school....

 

[ace12345]

Indeed, but that is pretty much the portrait you are more or less expected to portray during the admissions process.

Not necessarily. Yes you absolutely need to portray a desire to help others - and yes you should honestly feel that way, particularly if the finances are going to turn down as many believe - but there is nothing wrong with discussing the financial realities of medicine. I would say most of my interviews touched on that in some way.

The issue I take with the author is not whether she is right about financial security as a big part of professional decisions to pre-medical student. Sure it is. Very, very few people would go into medicine if they could not pay back their loans; people and their families need to survive right? Yet to make generalizations about no pre-meds actually caring about others, having no real world experience, etc. is just uninformed and wrong. It does not actually portray the high competitive student body getting into medicine right now.

 

[Mad Jack]

You apparently don't know what being on call is.

Says the dermatologist I'm sorry, I had to.

 

[DermViser]

Says the dermatologist I'm sorry, I had to.

I was referring to MS-3 and internship, but whatever.

 

[ace12345]

Teaching has its own challenges but it really is overstating the fact of how hard it is when you can have full credits/master level teaching at a highschool and be pulling in over $70k/yr (100k+ if you teach at private schools) in my area and have a multiple month long summer break where you can even take on a higher paying (per hour) summer school gig to boost your income. Not to mention the huge amount of holidays/days off during the academic year. Ya teaching definitely does have its huge challenges and most can't do it, but it isn't like it is oh so terrible for what it is. Although I will give you that primary school teachers see much less of a salary to make it really that viable of an option to be a primary supporter of a family.

This isn't a perfect analogy, but making that kind of money as a teacher with that kind of flexibility is somewhat equivalent to getting into competitive specialities in medicine. It doesn't happen for most people. Many, many teachers make almost no money, are employed in less than ideal/safe situations, work 10-14 hours a weekday, and ABSOLUTELY work weekends grading papers, tests, etc. There are some teachers that make it to the suburbs and have relatively nice situations - though they never make a lot of money - but for many teachers it doesn't work like that.

Yeah medicine is really, really hard, but making 30K a year, no matter what the job but teaching certainly included, is terrible. There is no comparison to how it limits you in all aspects of your life.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was referring to MS-3 and internship, but whatever.

You know I'm kidding man. You went through MS3, MS4, and intern year. You're a dermatologist in training precisely because you do know what call is like.

 

[Anicetus]

I am going to go onto college confidential and pick on High Schoolers applying for college.

 

[Ismet]

I am going to go onto college confidential and pick on High Schoolers applying for college.

Well that would only be analogous if you got accepted to college and decided not to go, then scare people away from applying to college because you were too scared to go yourself.

 

[EMDO2018]

Indeed, but that is pretty much the portrait you are more or less expected to portray during the admissions process.

You say what you need to say and do what you need to do to get it.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

The thing about being a non trad is you realize how sweet a gig medicine really is. Nowadays everybody works 60-70 hr weeks, has a ton of paperwork to do, and has to put up with hostile ungrateful clients ( I use to be a teacher ). I was putting up with all this bullcrap as a teacher and getting paid 30k a year. I would be at the school from 7-4, grade papers from 4-6, do lesson plans from 6-8, that's a 13 hr work day, not to mention you have to deal with discipline problems in children, classroom management, crazy parents, being on your feet lecturing all day, administrative bullcrap, and the list goes on. Everybody gets kicked and spat on, but at least in medicine they pay you 200k+ to deal with it.


And what the hell does a history grad student know about med school admissions. Most likely she is "jelly."

I appreciate that this was true for you, but the vast majority of people don't work 50 hours a week, let alone 60-70.

 

[Promethean]

In a way, yes. Also curious if any of you think (the ones that don't have their minds completely locked) whether she raises some very good points. If medicine didn't have the paycheck at the end which is required esp. with the level of debt to get to that stage, would it be worth doing?

I think this was already answered in the "Why would anyone WANT to go into primary care/family medicine?" threads.

Given that I am old enough to be the parent of many premeds, if I went with the standard repayment schedule, it is possible that I would be paying my loans back for the rest of my life.

Yet, even if I were going to go deep into debt with very little hope of ever paying it off, I would be doing this. Even if the most pessimistic outlooks on the future of healthcare and Family Medicine compensation are accurate, I would be doing this. Even if I had to work a second job to pay my bills while practicing medicine, I would do this.

Would everyone? Probably not. I would bet that the competition to get into medical schools would be considerably less fierce were financial security not one of the allures of the field.

 

[NickNaylor]

Not necessarily. Yes you absolutely need to portray a desire to help others - and yes you should honestly feel that way, particularly if the finances are going to turn down as many believe - but there is nothing wrong with discussing the financial realities of medicine. I would say most of my interviews touched on that in some way.

The issue I take with the author is not whether she is right about financial security as a big part of professional decisions to pre-medical student. Sure it is. Very, very few people would go into medicine if they could not pay back their loans; people and their families need to survive right? Yet to make generalizations about no pre-meds actually caring about others, having no real world experience, etc. is just uninformed and wrong. It does not actually portray the high competitive student body getting into medicine right now.

I agree that the author goes a bit overboard, but I think some aspects of the gestalt of her post are right on.

 

[Promethean]

I appreciate that this was true for you, but the vast majority of people don't work 50 hours a week, let alone 60-70.

A lot more people work long hours than you think, many of them unpaid. Most of my friends have second jobs or side businesses to make their budgets work. Of course, that is because most of my friends are supporting unemployed spouses/family members.