Think medical school is for you? You’re probably wrong

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Derm is actually surprisingly high earning. The average earnings put them 8th behind a lot of other specialties (ortho spine and neurosurg would bump them down to 10th, but Medscape doesn't break down subspecialties), but the earning potential is pretty damn high for those that know how to run a business, with 18% of dermatologists earning 500k or more. Compare that to 16% of radiologists, 11% of anesthesiologists, 23% of cardiologists, 35% of orthopedists, 16% of urologists, 19% of gastroenterologists, and 14% of plastic surgeons making over 500k and you can clearly see that the ceiling for derm is pretty high.

The ceiling for a lot of specialties is pretty high, especially the sub-specialties in the fields you mentioned. One can also climb the ranks in research/academia and make even more, regardless of specialty.

Also depends on where you work. A dermatologist in LA is going to make a heck of a lot more than a dermatologist in middle-of-nowhere Midwest town. .

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If so, why did he pursue a specialty that is relatively "low paying"/low prestige (according to him) and highly competitive?.

Because believe it or not, some people actually like looking at all those pesky rashes and lesions and skin disorders. I certainly don't, but more power to him for that interest. Have you ever opened a dermatology textbook? There's a reason why derm gets so many referrals from primary care docs. There's simply so much stuff that can be on a differential and so many different presentations of different diseases that it's often better to leave it to the expert. Or put lotion and/or steroids on it. :p
 
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Edit: In fact, @DermViser 's signature says that derm is for the "life and money", yet DV didn't mention either of those aspects when saying what he likes about his specialty.
I was quoting OTHER people's comments. You should stop extrapolating as to why you believe things are the way they are, bc you're losing the game, BADLY.
 
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Because believe it or not, some people actually like looking at all those pesky rashes and lesions and skin disorders. I certainly don't, but more power to him for that interest. Have you ever opened a dermatology textbook? There's a reason why derm gets so many referrals from primary care docs. There's simply so much stuff that can be on a differential and so many different presentations of different diseases that it's often better to leave it to the expert. Or put lotion and/or steroids on it. :p
It's hard for him to understand that someone can actually like the specialty in question. Nope, we all choose our specialties only bc we're happy in collecting the check on pay day.
 
One of DV's favorite tricks is to link to an article, or to quote someone else, then defend that opinion..... unless it causes some inconvenience for him, in which case he backs off and says "just quoting someone else here" or "that's what the article author said."
 
I was quoting OTHER people's comments. You should stop extrapolating as to why you believe things are the way they are, bc you're losing the game, BADLY.

I can see you're quoting other people's comments, but I assume you are doing so because you hold the comment to a high regard and agree with it. Unless it was sarcastically, in which case I misunderstood.

You still seem to be not actually answering to the points I have made.


Because believe it or not, some people actually like looking at all those pesky rashes and lesions and skin disorders. I certainly don't, but more power to him for that interest. Have you ever opened a dermatology textbook? There's a reason why derm gets so many referrals from primary care docs. There's simply so much stuff that can be on a differential and so many different presentations of different diseases that it's often better to leave it to the expert. Or put lotion and/or steroids on it. :p

It's hard for him to understand that someone can actually like the specialty in question. Nope, we all choose our specialties only bc we're happy in collecting the check on pay day.

That is exactly what I am saying!

You (DV) are doing it for reasons other than money/power/prestige/lifestyle/etc., but you are chastizing pre-meds for going into medicine without those considerations.
 
One of DV's favorite tricks is to link to an article, or to quote someone else, then defend that opinion..... unless it causes some inconvenience for him, in which case he backs off and says "just quoting someone else here" or "that's what the article author said."
So playing devil's advocate and pushing people to think out of the box at different opinions is a bad thing? Yea let's just all agree and bandwagon on everything, that will produce some great thought provoking discussions and realizations...
 
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I can see you're quoting other people's comments, but I assume you are doing so because you hold the comment to a high regard and agree with it. Unless it was sarcastically, in which case I misunderstood.
Yes, you did misunderstand.

You (DV) are doing it for reasons other than money/power/prestige/lifestyle/etc., but you are chastizing pre-meds for going into medicine without those considerations.
Again, if you can't understand the difference between the 2 scenarios of choosing to do medicine in the FIRST PLACE vs. choosing a specialty one will be doing the rest of their life, then I can't help you.
 
So playing devil's advocate and pushing people to think out of the box at different opinions is a bad thing? Yea let's just all agree and bandwagon on everything, that will produce some great thought provoking discussions and realizations...

I think that what he does goes well beyond playing devil's advocate, especially when he so commonly defends the author's arguments by rejecting counterarguments on the basis of how much medical school the poster does or doesn't have (regardless of whether the original author does). Or uses the quote as a signature.
 
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Yes, you did misunderstand.


Again, if you can't understand the difference between the 2 scenarios of choosing to do medicine in the FIRST PLACE vs. choosing a specialty one will be doing the rest of their life, then I can't help you. [/QUOTE]


.


I've been putting forwards arguments regarding this on the last page but you have ignored them and have been generally uncooperative and deliberately ambiguous in your posts to me.
Unless you want to actually further explain your view there is no point in me wasting my time with you.
 
So playing devil's advocate and pushing people to think out of the box at different opinions is a bad thing? Yea let's just all agree and bandwagon on everything, that will produce some great thought provoking discussions and realizations...
Apparently, quoting someone in your signature means you 100% agree with them. Who knew?
 
I've been putting forwards arguments regarding this on the last page but you have ignored them and have been generally uncooperative and deliberately ambiguous in your posts to me. Unless you want to actually further explain your view there is no point in me wasting my time with you.
No you actually haven't been putting forward arguments (ones actually backed up in fact) - hence my being "uncooperative" and "deliberately ambiguous".

Again, you need to do some more research on the difference between 1) choosing to go into medicine in the first place and 2) choosing a medical specialty to pursue to practice for the rest of your life at the end of MS-4.
 
That is exactly what I am saying!
.

Not really. Maybe there's a miscommunication on your part and a misunderstanding on my part, but your last few posts seem to claim that if money wasn't a driving factor for choosing derm, then money couldn't have been a driving factor for choosing medicine. That is what makes zero sense to me. Medical school changes you and you discover interests you never knew you had. A guy can come in gung-ho neurosurg because of the money and prestige and then realize he loves family medicine. A person can come in thinking they "just" want to do primary care and then realize anesthesiology is super duper interesting. The factors at play in deciding whether or not to pursue medicine are different from the factors at play in deciding what you want to specialize in.
 
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Not really. Maybe there's a miscommunication on your part and a misunderstanding on my part, but your last few posts seem to claim that if money wasn't a driving factor for choosing derm, then money couldn't have been a driving factor for choosing medicine. That is what makes zero sense to me. Medical school changes you and you discover interests you never knew you had. A guy can come in gung-ho neurosurg because of the money and prestige and then realize he loves family medicine. A person can come in thinking they "just" want to do primary care and then realize anesthesiology is super duper interesting. The factors at play in deciding whether or not to pursue medicine are different from the factors at play in deciding what you want to specialize in.
Exactly. Wonderfully said. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
 
Not really. Maybe there's a miscommunication on your part and a misunderstanding on my part, but your last few posts seem to claim that if money wasn't a driving factor for choosing derm, then money couldn't have been a driving factor for choosing medicine. That is what makes zero sense to me. Medical school changes you and you discover interests you never knew you had. A guy can come in gung-ho neurosurg because of the money and prestige and then realize he loves family medicine. A person can come in thinking they "just" want to do primary care and then realize anesthesiology is super duper interesting. The factors at play in deciding whether or not to pursue medicine are different from the factors at play in deciding what you want to specialize in.

I understand this, and agree with it.

But then that says that DermViser developed in such a way in medical school that he realized that money wasn't all that important to what he wanted to do for the rest of his life, which is usually the opposite of what he promotes in pre-allo (i.e. pre-meds don't know how important money is and it should be a shaping factor in your career pursuits). I was just trying to gain more insight into how he thinks, and admittedly the discussion has taken a different path from the article.

I do however still stand by my original assertion that pre-meds are not actually blissfully unaware of the benefits of money/security and sometimes prestige that the medical profession offers, but it has become a taboo subject to talk about and discuss in interviews. The original author sort of criticizes pre-meds for this, but it isn't entirely their fault.


Apparently, quoting someone in your signature means you 100% agree with them. Who knew?

Lol can you get over this already, it wasn't exactly in complete seriousness that I said that. It isn't a stretch to believe that you support the ideas in your signature. If not, then oh well, my mistake. No need to take it as a personal attack.
 
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I think that what he does goes well beyond playing devil's advocate, especially when he so commonly defends the author's arguments by rejecting counterarguments on the basis of how much medical school the poster does or doesn't have (regardless of whether the original author does). Or uses the quote as a signature.
I think he simply enjoys waging asymmetric warfare with pre-meds.
 
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I understand this, and agree with it.

But then that says that DermViser developed in such a way in medical school that he realized that money wasn't all that important to what he wanted to do for the rest of his life, which is usually the opposite of what he promotes in pre-allo (i.e. pre-meds don't know how important money is and it should be a shaping factor in your career pursuits). I was just trying to gain more insight into how he thinks, and admittedly the discussion has taken a different path from the article.

There's also a difference between "money is important in terms of financial security and the quality of life you want" and "money is more important than your interest/happiness." As far as I know, DV doesn't tell people to pick rads over peds when someone is clearly interested in peds.
 
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I understand this, and agree with it.

But then that says that DermViser developed in such a way in medical school that he realized that money wasn't all that important to what he wanted to do for the rest of his life, which is usually the opposite of what he promotes in pre-allo (i.e. pre-meds don't know how important money is and it should be a shaping factor in your career pursuits). I was just trying to gain more insight into how he thinks, and admittedly the discussion has taken a different path from the article.

I do however still stand by my original assertion that pre-meds are not actually blissfully unaware of the benefits of money/security and sometimes prestige that the medical profession offers, but it has become a taboo subject to talk about and discuss in interviews. The original author sort of criticizes pre-meds for this, but it isn't entirely their fault.

Lol can you get over this already, it wasn't exactly in complete seriousness that I said that. It isn't a stretch to believe that you support the ideas in your signature. If not, then oh well, my mistake. No need to take it as a personal attack.
Non-dischargeable debt is something to take seriously. Being able to make the monthly loans payments to avoid going into default is important. If I have to convince you of this, then we should end the conversation here.

You made an argument, re: my sig in saying that is what I believe, to buttress your point. That is a personal attack.

The author is not talking about taboo subjects at interviews. She's referring to premeds motivations, which is fair game.
 
The entire application process is designed in such a way to largely encourage pre-meds to think poorly.

If you want someone to be honest, you have to take away their incentive to lie. That might sound oversimplified, but it's really not much more complicated than that. But pre-meds have a huge incentive to lie when a school says (for example) they want students who are "interested in pursuing a career in primary care and rural medicine." What's a student expected to do in this case? Be honest and say they've never really been particularly drawn to either primary care or rural medicine and hurt their chances of admission? Or say to themselves "Screw it, I'm going to lie and paint a false portrait of myself to maximize my chance of getting an acceptance." Most students will think lying is wrong, so instead you see them try to actually convince themselves they're interested in primary care or rural medicine when of course in reality if they're given the choice in the future most will take the high paying specialties in the more desirable locations.

Keep in mind, people can get themselves to believe a lot of really crazy stuff when it benefits them. So getting yourself to believe you would actually take a less desirable job in a less desirable location or make your life (largely) a sacrifice is a pretty easy mental feat to perform. And once it stops benefiting someone to believe these things, they'll just stop believing it and go on living their lives.

On a similar note, the same way most pre-meds often won't admit many of the reasons why they're actually drawn to medicine (since it will hurt them), medical schools won't admit what they're doing either with the application process (since it will hurt them). Everything is so confusing and secretive for a reason. For example, you won't see a school just come out and say "Diversity for the most part just means racial diversity, and we really want more blacks and Hispanics and fewer Asians " Instead you'll see schools say "We do not discriminate based on sexual orientation, religion, or race" while still clearly giving some racial groups a preference over others. They do this because it benefits them and being honest and saying "While there's no definite rule, an Asian should expect to score around X more points on the MCAT than a URM to be admitted, all else being equal" probably wouldn't exactly go over too well despite that being a much more honest statement than "we do not discriminate based on race." So just like pre-meds, you see schools say one thing then do something else. Because it benefits them.

And when both pre-meds and med schools are saying whatever benefits them, despite how silly it might be, it's easy to see how people get lost of confused in this whole process.
 
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Non-dischargeable debt is something to take seriously. Being able to make the monthly loans payments to avoid going into default is important. If I have to convince you of this, then we should end the conversation here.

You made an argument, re: my sig in saying that is what I believe, to buttress your point. That is a personal attack.

The author is not talking about taboo subjects at interviews. She's referring to premeds motivations, which is fair game.

No need to be so sensitive regarding the sig thing.


And the author directly says that money/power/prestige are something that pre-meds don't admit.
 
Playing devil's advocate is totally fine. In fact I'm all for thought-provoking discussions. But such discourse can be accomplished without condescension.
When you accuse someone of: "I think he simply enjoys waging asymmetric warfare with pre-meds." then you have no leg to stand on re: accusing someone of condescension.
 
The entire application process is designed in such a way to largely encourage pre-meds to think poorly.

If you want someone to be honest, you have to take away their incentive to lie. That might sound oversimplified, but it's really not much more complicated than that. But pre-meds have a huge incentive to lie when a school says (for example) they want students who are "interested in pursuing a career in primary care and rural medicine." What's a student expected to do in this case? Be honest and say they've never really been particularly drawn to either primary care or rural medicine and hurt their chances of admission? Or say to themselves "Screw it, I'm going to lie and paint a false portrait of myself to maximize my chance of getting an acceptance." Most students will think lying is wrong, so instead you see them try to actually convince themselves they're interested in primary care or rural medicine when of course in reality if they're given the choice in the future most will take the high paying specialties in the more desirable locations.

Keep in mind, people can get themselves to believe a lot of really crazy stuff when it benefits them. So getting yourself to believe you would actually take a less desirable job in a less desirable location or make your life (largely) a sacrifice is a pretty easy mental feat to perform. And once it stops benefiting someone to believe these things, they'll just stop believing it and go on living their lives.

On a similar note, the same way most pre-meds often won't admit many of the reasons why they're actually drawn to medicine (since it will hurt them), medical schools won't admit what they're doing either with the application process (since it will hurt them). Everything is so confusing and secretive for a reason. For example, you won't see a school just come out and say "Diversity for the most part just means racial diversity, and we really want more blacks and Hispanics and fewer Asians " Instead you'll see schools say "We do not discriminate based on sexual orientation, religion, or race" while still clearly giving some racial groups a preference over others. They do this because it benefits them and being honest and saying "While there's no definite rule, an Asian should expect to score around X more points on the MCAT than a URM to be admitted, all else being equal" probably wouldn't exactly go over too well despite that being a much more honest statement than "we do not discriminate based on race." So just like pre-meds, you see schools say one thing then do something else. Because it benefits them.

And when both pre-meds and med schools are saying whatever benefits them, despite how silly it might be, it's easy to see how people get lost of confused in this whole process.
There are medical schools in which saying that you wish to pursue primary care or rural medicine is not a good thing. Why? Bc the school's mission is not for that. I guarantee if you go to WashU and say that, you will be rejected bc that's not their purpose, and not their mission statement. Their goal specifically is to train specialists.
 
This thread is full of generalizations, prejudices, and misinformation... but none worse than this:

If only we had more "Would you eat a poop hot dog thread to get into medical school?" threads, I'm sure he would find those more helpful.

The poop hot dog thread is a pillar of the SDN community, I do not appreciate the implications you are making here.
 
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The poop hot dog thread is a pillar of the SDN community, I do not appreciate the implications you are making here.
You're right, it is a pillar. That tells a lot.
 
Interesting article, but her point about the leading cause of death for physicians under 35 doesn't really seem to apply. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death for ALL people under 35, physician or not.

There are genuine concerns about happiness among physicians--young or old--but there are similar concerns for any group of professionals. The fact is that if you enter a high stress, high workload profession (medicine, law, education, engineering, etc.), there is a decent likelihood that you will be unhappy with your choice (at least for periods of time). It just comes with the territory.
Actually no. The incidence in suicide of those in the medical profession is much higher, controlling for age, compared to those in other professions.
 
When you accuse someone of: "I think he simply enjoys waging asymmetric warfare with pre-meds." then you have no leg to stand on re: accusing someone of condescension.
Sure, so I guess the next step is a discussion about logical fallacies.
I provide an analogy to your frequent condescension (which others are seemingly in agreement with) and you imply that I'm being condescending. Nice job deflecting that one on me, buddy.
 
There are medical schools in which saying that you wish to pursue primary care or rural medicine is not a good thing. Why? Bc the school's mission is not for that. I guarantee if you go to WashU and say that, you will be rejected bc that's not their purpose, and not their mission statement. Their goal specifically is to train specialists.

Sure, no doubt.

But that doesn't change the fact that many schools do have a specific mission statement and it will often encourage students to lie to maximize their chances of getting in. And saying you want to work in primary care is pretty common for students who don't have exceptional GPA/research/MCAT
 
Sure, no doubt.

But that doesn't change the fact that many schools do have a specific mission statement and it will often encourage students to lie to maximize their chances of getting in. And saying you want to work in primary care is pretty common for students who don't have exceptional GPA/research/MCAT
So is that the school's fault, for being honest about their mission statement, or the premed's fault?
 
So is that the school's fault, for being honest about their mission statement, or the premed's fault?

Edit: I'm not looking to assign blame so much as understand the process that often encourages bad decision making.

I think a better system can be designed that encourages honesty and leads to better decisions.
 
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Actually no. The incidence in suicide of those in the medical profession is much higher, controlling for age, compared to those in other professions.

Do you have any studies that show this? I was unable to find them, I only saw information about physicians at large.
 
Do you have any studies that show this? I was unable to find them, I only saw information about physicians at large.
Not off the cuff. But they are easily Googleable. See Pauline Chen's articles in the New York Times and she links to them I believe.
 
It's relevant, bc it speaks directly to the author's point.

I'm not trying to be dense but you'll have to spell it out to me then. How does it matter weather this process (which encourages students to lie and not think clearly) is the fault of the student or the schools?

Also, would you blame a student for lying if it allowed them to get into a better and cheaper school? Say one that saves him $100k and let's him stay near his or her friends and family.

I personally would not blame a 21 year old for doing the above (and not realize he's lying to himself), and my point is that the willingness to lie leads to bad decisions
 
@DermViser, I'm looking into it a bit but maybe my Google skills aren't great. Here's what I've found in a quick search.

This article from Chen: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/07/health/views/07chen.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This was also interesting: https://www.afsp.org/preventing-sui.../facts-about-physician-depression-and-suicide

particularly: "Contributing to the higher suicide rate among physicians is their higher completion to attempt ratio, which may result from greater knowledge of lethality of drugs and easy access to means." which validates some earlier speculation in this thread. I'm wondering if this is the relevant, differentiating criterion here that explains why doctors have higher suicide rates than other professionals. God knows there are plenty of depressed lawyers, engineers, teachers, etc.
 
Do you have any studies that show this? I was unable to find them, I only saw information about physicians at large.

I googled this as well recently and can confirm what Derm is saying. The suicide rate is quite high.
 
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I googled this as well recently and can confirm what Derm is saying. The suicide rate is quite high.

I know that it's high, but my point has largely been that it isn't as high when compared to other professions. This is the key thing to consider, in my view, since these other professions would be likely landing place for premeds in lieu of medicine itself. I just find it dubious to compare depression/suicide/substance abuse rates to the general population, since premeds/med students/physicians are a select group.
 
I know that it's high, but my point has largely been that it isn't as high when compared to other professions. This is the key thing to consider, in my view, since these other professions would be likely landing place for premeds in lieu of medicine itself. I just find it dubious to compare depression/suicide/substance abuse rates to the general population, since premeds/med students/physicians are a select group.

Fair enough and good points
 
:smack: oh and it's "waste" and not waist.
Thanks for alerting me of the typo. That does happen from time to time. But I'm happy for you because it really seems you desperately needed to point out a meaningless mistake. Enjoy being a Grammar Nazi. I prefer to use common sense and understand the point of a message instead of inspecting it for a flaw to irrelevantly use it in attacking someone I don't agree with.
 
Thanks for alerting me of the typo. That does happen from time to time. But I'm happy for you because it really seems you desperately needed to point out a meaningless mistake. Enjoy being a Grammar Nazi. I prefer to use common sense and understand the point of a message instead of inspecting it for a flaw to irrelevantly use it in attacking someone I don't agree with.
Your more meaningful mistake was: "I'm really glad that you didn't pursue medical school, partially because you clearly wanted to spend your life doing something else, and also because it would have been a shame to waist a desperately desired seat. It's pretty small-minded of you to assume that most aspiring doctors feel the same way you did."

The article which I pasted was not written by me.
 
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Who are you even talking to? You realize this was from an article and isn't the OP's original content, and even if it was, they are far beyond you in the path of being a physician.
I realized it was an article after I posted. I didn't see where I could delete my post. (I just created my account yesterday) Anyway, I didn't freak out about it, I just presumed that everyone would understand that my response was in reaction to the author and mentally replace the "yous" with "shes".

When you say that the author was far beyond me in the path of becoming a physician, is it only because she received an acceptance when I haven't applied yet? What does that have to do with anything I said. I was just saying that not everyone was like her.
 
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I think no one can have a truly compelling reason for becoming a doctor until they realize the value of human life. My reasons for pursuing medicine are those that I have never heard before, because my experiences are unlike the vast majority of people.

I'm going to keep it vague, but I have witnessed unimaginable evil that makes me want to do unimaginable good.
 
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Your more meaningful mistake was: "I'm really glad that you didn't pursue medical school, partially because you clearly wanted to spend your life doing something else, and also because it would have been a shame to waist a desperately desired seat. It's pretty small-minded of you to assume that most aspiring doctors feel the same way you did."

The article which I pasted was not written by me.

Geeeeez.....
Yes someone else pointed that out. See my response to them on how that happened. What does it matter? Again, just evaluate the point.
 
"...I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy."

Everyone chilllllllll.
 
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If that's your point, then we are in agreement. ;)
Yes, that was my only point. Most medical schools aren't going to fully fund your MD/PhD tuition with stipend thru the MSTP program when your PhD is in something like History.
 
Yes, that was my only point. Most medical schools aren't going to fully fund your MD/PhD tuition with stipend thru the MSTP program when your PhD is in something like History.

Most won't, but there is at least one program that does. In Illinois, if I recall? They sent me literature saying that I could totally do an MD/PhD there with the PhD in humanities, or whatever, and that it would be fully funded.

Not aligned with my goals, so not pursuing it. Still thought it was interesting as an idea.
 
What is the ideal medical students reasons for wanting to become a doctor? How many doctors do you thinkin actually have these traits?
 
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