Third Time Reapplicant

[AnotherRandomPreMed]

Deleted. Will update after this cycle!

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[y123]

Can you add more DO schools?

 

[Faha]

For MD add these schools:
Quinnipiac
Vermont
Eastern Virginia
Virginia Commonwealth
Oakland Beaumont
Western Michigan
Medical College Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
St. Louis
Creighton
Tulane
You are competitive for any DO schools so consider at least 10 of these schools:
Touro-NY
NYIT
LECOM (both schools)
PCOM (both schools)
MU-COM
NSU-COM
VCOM (all 3 schools)
ATSU-SOMA
AZCOM

 

[040111333]

I don't get it…I thought being complete by late August was "on-time" How are you a third-time applicant? Is it really because of the "lateness?" @gyngyn @Goro @Catalystik @Ismet @gonnif would you be willing to share your input?

 

[Catalystik]

I don't get it…I thought being complete by late August was "on-time" Is it really because of the "lateness?"

No.

 

[040111333]

Fully complete (primary, secondary, MCAT, LOR) by August is perfectly on time; September is either time or slightly late. In either case, there is no lateness here that would greatly impact admissions chances. If the OP applied to the same school for the third time, he/she would be a third time applicant at that school only. No school ever knows any other school that you have applied to and have been rejected from.

yet, you do a good job of it​

No.

I still don't get it lol I understand why OP is a third time applicant for that school. But what I don't get is why OP has not had any success with their app in the past two cycles despite being complete by Aug at most schools, which is said to be "on time"

I mean, doesn't OP have a pretty decent app? Do you feel being complete late Aug is what tanked it? Or if not, what else could be the reason?

 

[MrChance2]

Something seems off to me here. I feel like you should have gotten in on both cycles. Possibly a bad LOR or bad PS? Some bad interviews perhaps. Even if the interviewer is being "horrid and unprofessional"..an experience I never had... they don't want an interviewee that thinks of them as "horrid and unprofessional". Any run ins with the law? 3.6/31 should be good for MD last I checked.

I'm reaching here but from your post you seem pretty down. I can understand this based off your past 2 years. However you don't want it to come across to schools. Depression is a major reason medical students don't graduate. I'd make sure your personal statement shows you are strong, passionate about medicine, and professional. Be sure it doesn't have any negative stuff in there.

 

[Catalystik]

But what I don't get is why OP has not had any success with their app in the past two cycles despite being complete by Aug at most schools, which is said to be "on time"

I mean, doesn't OP have a pretty decent app? Do you feel being complete late Aug is what tanked it? Or if not, what else could be the reason?

Keep in mind that only 40% of applicants get an acceptance. Potential issues: Below average stats for acceptees, possible IA and legal issues, non-optimal interviews, PS, activity descriptions, and maybe Secondary essay quality not matching that of the PS, unexplained time off for "personal reasons" and "personal family reasons," LORs could raise a red flag unbeknownst to OP.

Now, let's refrain from sidetracking this thread further to answer your questions

 

[Goro]

The wise Cat has already reviewed why things other than lateness can sink an app. One more thing to consider is the school list. OP stats that his/her list was "somewhat realistic", but without knowing which schools were ont he list, we don't really know. OP may have applied to, for example, Brody, U ND, U SD and OR HS thinking that their stats were in line with these schools, but was ignorant that these are very OOS lethal.

I don't get it…I thought being complete by late August was "on-time" How are you a third-time applicant? Is it really because of the "lateness?" @gyngyn @Goro @Catalystik @Ismet @gonnif would you be willing to share your input?

 

[AnotherRandomPreMed]

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[AnotherRandomPreMed]

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[Goro]

You should have reported #3. It's the only way the system can cleanse itself of bad interviewers. The church attendance question was stepping over a line.

 

[QofQuimica]

You know what I think your biggest issue is? I look at your list of ECs and immediately think, "this guy should get a PhD. He's done THOUSANDS of hours of research, has pubs, etc. He's also done a little dabbling with shadowing and volunteering, but clinical medicine is really not his thing." No doubt you spent a lot of time talking about your research at your interviews, too, since that is by far your most notable EC.

If you're serious about going to medical school, you need to demonstrate that to adcoms by getting some significant experience in a *clinical* setting. A recent college grad who was really passionate about practicing medicine would have their ECs reversed: 2500 hours of clinical experience, and a couple hundred hours of dabbling in a lab. I would advise you to quit your lab job yesterday, take a clinical job, and spend the next year immersing yourself into a clinical setting. My guess is that your reception from med schools will be much better if you do this, considering that most are looking to train future clinicians, not future scientists.

 

[AnotherRandomPreMed]

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[Goro]

Looks like Q touched a nerve.

Your research experience is extremely laudable. The non-clinical ECs showing your humanism and altruism are also good. However, what does stand out is how many research hours you have compared to your other ECs, especially clinical experiences. You took a gap year to bone up on more research. If this was paid, that's fine. Work experience is good. But what jumps off the page to me is 5 hrs of research to ~1 of everything else.

Your patient volunteering hours are the typical "check the box/cookie cutter" hours. I didn't see any mention of scribing in your OP; perhaps I missed it. I consider EMT to be a glorified taxi driver.

So, I recommend that you be very careful with your PS, and bone up on as much patient contact experiences as possible.

You are 100% correct about the discrepancy in my app regarding research vs. clinical hours and to some schools that may be the issue. The hours of research take into consideration of about how many I will have by the time I matriculate, therefore there huge gap in the numbers, but this is what I am doing for my gap year. My lab is focused on translational science. It has both a clinical division and a basic science-like division. This combination makes the research very clinically relevant. I do not get direct patient contact, but these are direct patient studies that give us data. I am aware of this discrepancy and will be shadowing another physician soon. Hopefully I can volunteer in the clinic, if not at another hospital and send updates to medical schools.

First and foremost, your advice is greatly appreciated, but I respectfully disagree with some points. The reason we apply broadly is that each school has a preference despite stating that everything is important. Some are research oriented, some service based, and etc. Just because I have many research hours, does not mean I cannot demonstrate my passion for medicine. It's another case if I have no clinical hours at all, but it is not. Schools are not only looking for students who are intellectually capable, but also those are well versed in research, willing to serve the community, involved with academia, and in general trying their best to benefit society as a whole. Your statement about reversed EC hours for a college grad who wants to practice medicine is rather puzzling considering the top 5-8 most competitive MD residencies require an extensive amount of research (some students even devote a whole year off to it) to begin with. So are those medical students not serious about medical school and practicing medicine? Most schools are actually encouraging research from its students and would want their students to be successful clinicians AND scientists that contribute to the scientific community . I also have 450 hours of non-clinical volunteering, but it was done in an underserved, underrepresented, and socioeconomically disadvantaged area as I am very passionate about giving back to the community. Just because it's not in a clinical setting does not mean I haven't demonstrated one of the qualities that is needed from physicians.

While I am sure your advice comes from good intentions, I still believe that the quality of each experience and the growth that we display is more important than giving it a label as non-clinical, clinical, volunteering, research, and etc. Excluding very specific mission based schools, with the same stats, quality of written material, LORs, and demographics, I ask you if you were an adcom, would you take an applicant with 2500+ research hours that has co-authorship in a top high impact journal (nature, science, cell, etc.) or someone with 2500+ hours in clinical experience (EMT, scribe, volunteering, etc.)? It is a drastic contrast in "achievement", not that I have one of those publications, nor am I dismissing those clinical experiences as insignificant, but the point I am trying to make is that if there is even a shred of doubt or debate that can be made on who to accept, it means that the quality the experience can be a bigger factor than simply determining if it was a clinical or non-clinical experience.

Lastly, I would like to reiterate my thanks for your input, and my intent is not to be confrontational or dismissing advice from long time posters with so much more experience than myself, but I would appreciate it if you not question whether or not I am serious about medicine on such a whim. Advising me to quit my lab job and find another clinical job within a short period of time as if it was as easy as putting on another shirt is not helpful to me or other people who are looking for advice. A lot of times on SDN, there are incredibly strong posts that does not leave room for discussion. "Do this or don't go to medical school" as if that was the only possible option left. I imagine many people can just give a rebuttal of "OP, he's a physician and you're not even in med school after 2 tries." But this is a thread that should leave room for further discussion and hopefully it will be of use to others. Just as in practicing medicine, there are many things to consider and many factors that can inhibit patients from following a physician's advice. Giving such a strong ultimatum without considering other situations along with questioning the effort of the patient (in this case, me, and whether or not I really want to practice medicine) can come off as lacking empathy and failing to see the bigger problem that is preventing success.

 

[QofQuimica]

Random, let me give you some context here. I went through this process with a super lopsided app too. In fact, eleven years ago, when I applied to medical school, I already had my MS and PhD, both in bench research. I had also spent some time in between my stints in grad school working in research full-time. And I had done two years of FT research during college. So I was way more lopsided toward research than any just-graduated college kid could or would ever be. BUT, when I decided I wanted to go to medical school, I focused on getting clinical hours. I was still in grad school, so I was still doing research too, but research wasn't my EXTRAcurricular pasttime any more, except for working with a prof I knew on a clinical research project he was trying to get up and off the ground. And that was still appropriate in my case, because I was applying to research-oriented med schools so that I could become an academic physician and do clinical research.

I've read many apps during four years on the adcom and over a decade on SDN. You can choose to dismiss what I say because you "don't agree," but I will tell you this: you have the ECs of a guy applying to competitive research-oriented schools or MD/PhD programs, but you don't have the stats for that. I am not looking to kick you when you're down: it's not like a 3.6/31 are bad stats. Those stats are totally reasonable to be considered for the MD-only programs at any of my state allo schools if you were a resident down here. (I'm in FL.) But those are not top tier research MD or MD/PhD level program stats. So you need to make a decision: either you love research and want to devote yourself to that, in which case you should apply for a PhD. Or you love clinical medicine, and you want to devote yourself to that, in which case you should stop focusing on research and start focusing on getting more clinical experience.

One of the things you learn while seeing patients (and working with trainees too, FWIW) is that you need to pay attention to what people DO more than to what they SAY. People lie constantly, both to you as the physician as well as to themselves. And again, in spite of what YOU say, what you are DOING is screaming that you want to be a researcher. TBH, I'm a bit amazed no adcom or advisor has ever given you this feedback before....

I would also point out that for a premed to be telling an attending how physicians should behave is not going to win you any friends among adcoms. Even if you think I'm FOS (and it's fine with me if you do), don't ever say the kinds of things like you wrote in your last post on your apps or at your interviews. Knowing when to keep your opinions to yourself is a very important skill for successfully completing medical training. I'm telling you this so you can hopefully learn from my mistake of opening my mouth at times when I should have kept it shut, not to bust your chops.

 

[AnotherRandomPreMed]

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[Goro]

Here are where I think that you should be applying: If you're a reapplicant to any of these, you'll need to show them how you significantly improved, other than applying earlier.

Miami
Albany
Rochester
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
MCW
VCU
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
Loyola
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Oakland-B

Any DO program, starting with NYITCOM, UNECOM and PCOM. I can't recommend Touro-NY and LUCOM. As a 3rd time applicant, beggars can't be choosy.
ALL SUNYs

 

[AnotherRandomPreMed]

Here are where I think that you should be applying: If you're a reapplicant to any of these, you'll need to show them how you significantly improved, other than applying earlier.

Miami
Albany
Rochester
Rosy Franklin
NYMC
MCW
VCU
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
Tulane
Loyola
Uniformed Services University/Hebert (just be aware of the military service commitment)
Oakland-B

Any DO program, starting with NYITCOM, UNECOM and PCOM. I can't recommend Touro-NY and LUCOM. As a 3rd time applicant, beggars can't be choosy.
ALL SUNYs

Looks like a good list. I have to start adding them soon. The Philly 3 haven't really shown me any love and I will be a 3rd time reapplicant, so I may be replacing them with something else. And aren't my stats too low for Miami? Excuse me as this may be a dumb question, but why not Touro-NY and LUCOM? Also do you know anything about Quinnipiac or the situation they're in? Thanks in advance.

 

[Goro]

Netter likes service. I've discussed Touro and LUCOM previously.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Looks like @Goro has brought down the hammer on Touro-NY, and it was well deserved!

 

[believe <3]

Looks like @Goro has brought down the hammer on Touro-NY, and it was well deserved!

Why? What's wrong with Touro-NY?

 

[AnotherRandomPreMed]

Why? What's wrong with Touro-NY?

Didn't dig too deep but apparently they over accepted and are forcing students to defer.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Didn't dig too deep but apparently they over accepted and are forcing students to defer.

Why? What's wrong with Touro-NY?

They were trying to force them to transfer to the middletown campus or force them to defer without any compensation. Usually schools that make such mistakes will give scholarships to the students for the missed year. Touro didn't do this at first and forced students to defer using any means necessary (i.e. AP credits, missed shots, etc.). Only when complaints were coming, then did the school start offering scholarships to students to defer.

 

[QofQuimica]

You're going to be all right, Random. FWIW, I was NOT telling you to give up the MD for a PhD. I was challenging your thought process here. And now you're giving me the "right" answer, which is that you're passionate about medicine, not research. In which case, I would still argue that you need to get your ECs better lined up with your passions (i.e., more clinical experience).

Nothing wrong with being an ER scribe. You basically get paid to shadow, and you'll have some great stories to talk about at interviews. Not to mention that you'd get to know some physicians well and be able to get a LOR from them. If you do decide to scribe, try to do it at an academic institution. It's better to have a faculty LOR than a community doc LOR. The exception is if you're applying DO, don't forget that you will need a DO LOR at some schools.

Best of luck to you. Taking care of a newborn is more work than you likely realize, but it's an important job.

 

[sammiesings]

You know what I think your biggest issue is? I look at your list of ECs and immediately think, "this guy should get a PhD. He's done THOUSANDS of hours of research, has pubs, etc. He's also done a little dabbling with shadowing and volunteering, but clinical medicine is really not his thing." No doubt you spent a lot of time talking about your research at your interviews, too, since that is by far your most notable EC.

If you're serious about going to medical school, you need to demonstrate that to adcoms by getting some significant experience in a *clinical* setting. A recent college grad who was really passionate about practicing medicine would have their ECs reversed: 2500 hours of clinical experience, and a couple hundred hours of dabbling in a lab. I would advise you to quit your lab job yesterday, take a clinical job, and spend the next year immersing yourself into a clinical setting. My guess is that your reception from med schools will be much better if you do this, considering that most are looking to train future clinicians, not future scientists.

@QofQuimica this is a really interesting point that applies to many applicants, I think. I'm sorry to hijack your thread Random, but I'm wondering what Q thinks folks who are heavy on research can do about the initial impression this would give? I'm heavy on research, but its heavy clinical research which has actually allowed me a really great opportunity to view clinical medicine at work even if I'm technically working in research. Although I think this is clear through my PS and EC explanations, I still worry that when schools "sort" they'll see a heavy emphasis on "research" and get this automatic ping. Any way to avoid this further?

 

[QofQuimica]

@QofQuimica this is a really interesting point that applies to many applicants, I think. I'm sorry to hijack your thread Random, but I'm wondering what Q thinks folks who are heavy on research can do about the initial impression this would give? I'm heavy on research, but its heavy clinical research which has actually allowed me a really great opportunity to view clinical medicine at work even if I'm technically working in research. Although I think this is clear through my PS and EC explanations, I still worry that when schools "sort" they'll see a heavy emphasis on "research" and get this automatic ping. Any way to avoid this further?

As I alluded to above, if you want to get an MD/DO, then you need to show adcoms that you've gained some understanding of what it is that MDs/DOs do. I don't know the exact percentage of people with MD/DO degrees who are physician scientists, but it's a very, very low number. The vast majority of people with medical degrees are clinicians, even the majority of academic types, and even a good number of people with combined MD/PhD degrees. (My current position is as a clinical assistant professor, not as a researcher, for example.) So if you want to go to medical school coming from a basic science research background, you need to think of this as a career change, get yourself into a clinical setting of some type, and immerse yourself by racking up some significant hours there. If you've spent enough years in research (I'd had 10+ years FT plus some PT), you still won't have more clinical hours than research hours when it comes time to apply. But if you're applying to MD-only or DO-only programs coming from a research background, then your most recent EC hours from the past 1-2 years should be majority clinical. In other words, don't pile on more research as your primary EC, unless you're looking to apply to a physician scientist training program (MD/PhD or MD/MS).

If you're interested in a career in clinical research (which was my segue into medicine), then spending time working on clinical research projects is a reasonable way to get some of that experience. But you should still do some shadowing and clinical volunteering on top of that. In my last year of grad school, my ECs included volunteering on a clinical trial, shadowing my clinical trial PI (also a PhD-to-MD) in his clinic, and volunteering two hours per week in the surgery waiting room at the hospital at my university. I did the volunteering from 6a-8a once per week for a year because that's when I could fit it in. Point being, getting significant clinical experience can be done if the will is there, and it should be done if you want to be a successful applicant. And as a bonus, I got a great LOR from the clinical trial doc.

 

[halodos]

I just wanted to say that I am a third time applicant with an extremely heavy research bias while applying, thanks to working in a lab. However, I did try and get as many clinical volunteering opportunities and shadowing opportunities as possible, and volunteered 4 hours a week for 2 years. I think the consistency helped in my app.

In my secondaries and personal statement, I made sure to focus on my clinical experiences and only mention research as an introduction to medicine since I was working with MD's. During the interviews I also talked about my volunteering unless asked about my research, but I think the big difference was long term volunteering.

 

[sammiesings]

As I alluded to above, if you want to get an MD/DO, then you need to show adcoms that you've gained some understanding of what it is that MDs/DOs do. I don't know the exact percentage of people with MD/DO degrees who are physician scientists, but it's a very, very low number. The vast majority of people with medical degrees are clinicians, even the majority of academic types, and even a good number of people with combined MD/PhD degrees. (My current position is as a clinical assistant professor, not as a researcher, for example.) So if you want to go to medical school coming from a basic science research background, you need to think of this as a career change, get yourself into a clinical setting of some type, and immerse yourself by racking up some significant hours there. If you've spent enough years in research (I'd had 10+ years FT plus some PT), you still won't have more clinical hours than research hours when it comes time to apply. But if you're applying to MD-only or DO-only programs coming from a research background, then your most recent EC hours from the past 1-2 years should be majority clinical. In other words, don't pile on more research as your primary EC, unless you're looking to apply to a physician scientist training program (MD/PhD or MD/MS).

If you're interested in a career in clinical research (which was my segue into medicine), then spending time working on clinical research projects is a reasonable way to get some of that experience. But you should still do some shadowing and clinical volunteering on top of that. In my last year of grad school, my ECs included volunteering on a clinical trial, shadowing my clinical trial PI (also a PhD-to-MD) in his clinic, and volunteering two hours per week in the surgery waiting room at the hospital at my university. I did the volunteering from 6a-8a once per week for a year because that's when I could fit it in. Point being, getting significant clinical experience can be done if the will is there, and it should be done if you want to be a successful applicant. And as a bonus, I got a great LOR from the clinical trial doc.

This is excellent advice. I need to start looking at what more I can do clinically.

As a clinical researcher, I feel like I hit many of these points just going about my job. Ie: shadowing. Also since I do patient assessments/follow up visits/consenting/am present for surgical interventions , I get a good deal of direct patient time.

What I think I'm lacking though is the distinction between when I'm writing protocols, or for grants and papers and this inate world of clinical ongoings that I also happen to fall in on.

Specifically I worry that adcoms won't be able to spend the time on my application that's needed to see that there are both worlds in this position from just the "research/lab"heading on my EC listing of my job.

But when I think about it, I really don't think my experience in clinical research is all that unique, is it? Many clinical research associates must end up applying to medical school so adcoms are used to what this position holds?

Either way, taking two notes 1) make sure to make the clinical aspects of my job clear within secondaries etc and 2) keep it up with varied clinical volunteering! Thanks so much for the insight!