This Is What Happens To Smart People In Med School...

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OneStrongBro

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They become average. Most smart people have average or mediocre study skills because they didn't have to study as an undergrad. THEY WERE NATURALLY BRILLIANT.

MED SCHOOL is a different ball game. IT IS ALL MEMORIZATION. No problem solving. JUST ROTE MEMORIZATION. VERY intelligent people become EASILY BORED with memorizing details and get bogged down.

The BEST STUDENTS are the HARDEST WORKERS. Intelligence is overrated. DILIGENCE, Organization, and discipline are the hallmarks of the VERY BEST MEDICAL STUDENTS.

To all of the acceptees, CONGRATULATIONS. Enjoy your summer.
Than come next year, don't rest on your laurels. WORK HARD.

JUST REMEMBER EVERYONE IN YOUR CLASS is bright. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL.

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Originally posted by OneStrongBro
They become average. Most smart people have average or mediocre study skills because they didn't have to study as an undergrad. THEY WERE NATURALLY BRILLIANT.

MED SCHOOL is a different ball game. IT IS ALL MEMORIZATION. No problem solving. JUST ROTE MEMORIZATION. VERY intelligent people become EASILY BORED with memorizing details and get bogged down.

The BEST STUDENTS are the HARDEST WORKERS. Intelligence is overrated. DILIGENCE, Organization, and discipline are the hallmarks of the VERY BEST MEDICAL STUDENTS.

To all of the acceptees, CONGRATULATIONS. Enjoy your summer.
Than come next year, don't rest on your laurels. WORK HARD.

JUST REMEMBER EVERYONE IN YOUR CLASS is bright. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL.

One of my most favorite sigs is:

You are not special, you are not a unique snowflake, you are the same piece of organic decaying flesh as everyone else!

:)
 
but what if you're naturally brilliant AND diligent? :D
 
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I'm not sure I'd say that was accurate.
 
REALLY now WHAT is UP with ALL those WORDS in CAPS.
 
Originally posted by MDTom
One of my most favorite sigs is:

You are not special, you are not a unique snowflake, you are the same piece of organic decaying flesh as everyone else!

:)

You are not your swedish furniture!
 
Memorization? Yes, there is plenty of that. However I pity you if this is how you got through Biochem, Path, and especially Physiology. These are exciting subjects where you see the brilliant logic of creation.
I am an engineer myself. I am not in med school, but my wife is graduating this year. She often shared with me the stuff she has learned over these years... I am telling you - a human body is a remarkable piece of engineering. Part of the reason why I am applying now is so that I can learn it.
I'll give you that however - med schools do not encourage understanding over memorization. Quite the opposite however... If you take time to really understand something -- you'll move at a slower rate, and your grades just might reflect it.
 
Well, if you're brilliant, it'd be a lot easier to memorize, dood. If you're dumb as heck, then no matter how diligent you are, you can't possibly memorize all dat. I say, ability to memorize is also an integral part of intelligence.
 
Originally posted by edik
...Biochem, Path, and especially Physiology. These are exciting subjects where you see the brilliant logic of creation.
I am an engineer myself. ...I am telling you - a human body is a remarkable piece of engineering.

Hey, I am an undergrad still and I just took evolution this semester. I couldn't help myself from responding to this quote. We learned in evolution class how the complex human body actually came into existence through small changes from less complex organisms via common ancestry and natural selection. My professor said there is no "logic of creation" - what Darwin's religious fundamentalists strongly believed. Rather, natural selection works so as to give those who possess certain beneficial characteristics a reproductive advantage over their peers. I think it's quite remarkable how humans, although they may consider themselves the superior creatures of the world, are really just one of the contemporary products of evolution. It's funny because my professor said that engineers tend to believe things are made for a distinct purpose - but the human body came into being without any distinct purpose or plan in mind (You may want to read "The Blind Watchmaker" - it's quite an interesting read and provides a convincing perspective that differs from that of engineers.)
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
REMEMBER EVERYONE IN YOUR CLASS is bright. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL.

Ummmm... I would say that I lot of us had this experience in *undergrad*, especially at the very selective schools. I can't speak for everyone, but I sure had a severe ego beating my freshman year.
 
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My professor said...

i'm sorry, but i have to be a little harsh. i'm not coming down just on you chirurgien, but on what a lot of medical students seem to be like these days.
you CANNOT simply accept what your professor teaches all the time. if anything, that's what's wrong with many educational systems in that students are taught a professor's ideology rather than different points of views. albeit, this is mostly a problem with humanities courses, but many science oriented students don't realize that this is even happening to them in their very own classrooms. this is probably because science along with its professors - more so than humanities - is still held high on it's pedestal of "truth" and power in our society. just to be sure, i'm not here to support either darwinism or creationism. but my understanding is that even in the top medical schools, most med students (and certainly pre-meds in college) don't even know the flaws in darwinism or what intelligent design theory has to offer. the manifestations of this ignorance are greater than what most think. at least within the medical field, it creates a huge sense of arrogance when the root of it all is ignorance.

the origins of life is as hairy as the abortion issue. you can't disprove or validate either side. as goes for professors - they have every right to tell their opinions, but you're getting ripped off of your tuition if that's all you're getting.
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
They become average. Most smart people have average or mediocre study skills because they didn't have to study as an undergrad. THEY WERE NATURALLY BRILLIANT.

MED SCHOOL is a different ball game. IT IS ALL MEMORIZATION. No problem solving. JUST ROTE MEMORIZATION. VERY intelligent people become EASILY BORED with memorizing details and get bogged down.

The BEST STUDENTS are the HARDEST WORKERS. Intelligence is overrated. DILIGENCE, Organization, and discipline are the hallmarks of the VERY BEST MEDICAL STUDENTS.

To all of the acceptees, CONGRATULATIONS. Enjoy your summer.
Than come next year, don't rest on your laurels. WORK HARD.

JUST REMEMBER EVERYONE IN YOUR CLASS is bright. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL.

You solely put things in black and white...and hello, the goal of getting into med schools is not to show off to your relatives how smart you are, and prove to yourself how talented you are.
 
Originally posted by edik
If you take time to really understand something -- you'll move at a slower rate, and your grades just might reflect it.

That is a very funny comment.

NO OFFENSE, but there is not enough time in a given day to "UNDERSTAND" all of the concepts. If you truly believe you will learn every concept you are grossly mistaken.

As for your engineering background, the logic, analytical ability, and reasoning will be invaluable for you for STEP1 of the USMLE. However, there are two sides of the coin. You have to "memorize" the information before you can "apply" it. If you go at a slow rate like you recommend. You will know 20% of the material that you can "apply". Not very efficient to "understand" the concept.

Furthermore, I dare you to try to "analyze and understand" anatomy, neuroanatomy, or histology. It is fruitless.

For example, the name of the structure is Extensor Carpi Radialis Longus. That's it. There is no "understanding" behind it.

Lastly, I find your entire post cocky. Sure, your wife is in med school, but unless you are in school first hand. You cannot post such comments about medical school.

Originally posted by edik
Memorization? Yes, there is plenty of that. However I pity you if this is how you got through Biochem, Path, and especially Physiology. These are exciting subjects where you see the brilliant logic of creation.
I am an engineer myself. I am not in med school, but my wife is graduating this year. She often shared with me the stuff she has learned over these years... I am telling you - a human body is a remarkable piece of engineering. Part of the reason why I am applying now is so that I can learn it.
I'll give you that however - med schools do not encourage understanding over memorization. Quite the opposite however... If you take time to really understand something -- you'll move at a slower rate, and your grades just might reflect it.
 
Originally posted by SarahGM
Ummmm... I would say that I lot of us had this experience in *undergrad*, especially at the very selective schools. I can't speak for everyone, but I sure had a severe ego beating my freshman year.

The average accepted medical student has a 30 on the mcat.

It doesn't matter where you went to undergrad once you are in medical school.

Let's not compare UNDERGRAD to Medical school. Once you are in medical school, you will realize how foolish your comments are.

The amount of work and academic competition at the worst MD school(they are all accredited by LCME) surpasses Northwestern, Duke, Harvard or any undergraduate program anyday. Trust me.
 
OneStrongBro is right, med school is about memorization, not about understanding. I was a math and physics major in undergrad and THAT was about understanding. For instance, in real analysis, you start with a few axioms about set theory and from that you can develop the entire theory of calculus. In group theory, there are like what, five axioms and you can derive this beautiful theory that ends up having extensive applications to particle physics.

I tried studying the way I studied in undergrad, try to understand everything and got a serious ass-whopping my second exam first year. Since then, I've realized that to compete with med school people, I have to study like them, i.e., memorize every sentence on every sheet of notes. For example, you can't learn physiology without memorizing. Try learning what effects terazosin has on the body without having memorized where alpha1, alpha2, beta1 and beta2 receptors are. And not to mention you have to memorize that terazosin is an alpha1 antagonist (along with 80 other drugs). If you don't consider this memorization then I don't know what is. Renal physiology is the same thing. You still have to know what ion is absorbed where in the loop of Henle, things that I have long since forgotten.

Of course to go through med school, you need some intelligence but I think it's been hammered home before that you don't need to be a genius to get an MD.
 
Well, i wouldnt go as far as saying intelligence is "overrated" in medical school, but I agree with much of what OneStrongBro is essentially saying . Medical school is all about memorization, and even topics such as biochem which I found so intellectually complex and invigorating in undergraduate studies gets reduced down to "missing X enzyme causes Y disease". And there are some subjects, histology being a prime example, which are nothing more than regurgitating cell structures and tissue layers on slides. There's no thought process behind recognizing the location and function of a goblet cell in the trachea. You memorize it, and go onto the rest of the random factoids you must know about the trachea.

Its rote memorization any way you dice it. if you sit around trying to understand the deeper meaning of biochemical pathways and physiologic phenomena, you're likely wasting your time.
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
They become average. Most smart people have average or mediocre study skills because they didn't have to study as an undergrad. THEY WERE NATURALLY BRILLIANT.

MED SCHOOL is a different ball game. IT IS ALL MEMORIZATION. No problem solving. JUST ROTE MEMORIZATION. VERY intelligent people become EASILY BORED with memorizing details and get bogged down.

The BEST STUDENTS are the HARDEST WORKERS. Intelligence is overrated. DILIGENCE, Organization, and discipline are the hallmarks of the VERY BEST MEDICAL STUDENTS.

To all of the acceptees, CONGRATULATIONS. Enjoy your summer.
Than come next year, don't rest on your laurels. WORK HARD.

JUST REMEMBER EVERYONE IN YOUR CLASS is bright. YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL.


This whole post is absolutely pointless. Nothing of substance was said in this post...it's just a regurgitation of the painfully obvious. The students in the top tier undergrad institutions already KNOW what it feels like to go from being an academic superstar in high school to being just average (or below average) at your undergraduate school. At the top schools, ALL the students had the same stats in high school...everyone had the 3.7+ GPA, the high SAT 1 scores, the high AP scores, etc. So for med school, it'll be more of the same...struggling to be average. I remember how easy it was to get As in the AP courses in high school...now...even getting Bs requires wayyyyy more effort. Do you actually think your post is telling anyone anything new? Do you think people on this forum don't already know this? Why did you waste your time (and everyone else's time) even posting this? I think the collective IQ of SDN posters went down but 2 or 3 points after reading the original post in this thread.
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
The average accepted medical student has a 30 on the mcat.

It doesn't matter where you went to undergrad once you are in medical school.

Let's not compare UNDERGRAD to Medical school. Once you are in medical school, you will realize how foolish your comments are.

The amount of work and academic competition at the worst MD school(they are all accredited by LCME) surpasses Northwestern, Duke, Harvard or any undergraduate program anyday. Trust me.

Please, Bro. Don't waste my time. Med school is SO much tougher than undergrad, yada yada yada. We all know this. My *point* was that we're not all going in there like cocky little SOBs thinking that we run the world because we had it made in undergrad. Because not all of us did!
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
That is a very funny comment.

NO OFFENSE, but there is not enough time in a given day to "UNDERSTAND" all of the concepts. If you truly believe you will learn every concept you are grossly mistaken.
No disagreement there. I never claimed that there is enough time to everything. Quite the opposite is true.


Furthermore, I dare you to try to "analyze and understand" anatomy, neuroanatomy, or histology. It is fruitless.
Also no disagreement. In fact in my original post I agreed that there is plenty of memorization. However you claimed that there is JUST memorization.

Lastly, I find your entire post cocky. Sure, your wife is in med school, but unless you are in school first hand. You cannot post such comments about medical school.
Yep, the post was a bit cocky. And no, just like you I have a right to post anything on this forum.
Look, what both of us are doing is stating our opinions. Yours is based on your own experience, and mine is based on my wife's. People will read our posts and take them at face value. They are free to agree or disagree with either of us.
Why was I compelled to take a cocky tone? Because I know that people in pre-med forums tend to put med students on the piedestal. Anything that comes out of med student's mouth is treated like news from the front. I am in a bit different position. I simply wanted to challenge your statements that may put quite a few people in a depressing mood right before the New Year.
Once again, you are have every right to complain. Med school is tough and there is a lot of memorization and other crap.
 
The difference is that you will be together with 150 other students who are going through exactly the same experience as you are.

The grading will be pass fail so hopefully you will find students who are willing to study with you and you can support and help each other. You WILL get through the material and pass and become a doctor. You may have an awful lot of fun along the way.

That is something to be happy about!

:D
 
A good way to be that "unique snowflake" in your med school class is to be creative, thoughtful, and genuinely caring in performing clinical duties as a medical student. Memorization and performing well on tests gets you through the first two years, and the "hurdles" of third year. But actually being a great doctor requires an entirely different skill set. I'm a fourth-year currently interviewing for residency, and I wrote about creativity in medicine in my personal statement. Each and every interviewer I've had so far has remarked about this and told me how refreshing it is to see a young doctor passionate about bringing new ideas to patient care.

In college, and the first few years of medical school there is this tendency to see yourself only as good as your grades and test scores ("they" beat that into us by forcing us into brutal competition in which our life dream of becomming a doctor - or orthopedic surgon, dermatologist, etc - is at stake). A human being, and, a doctor, is so much more then that. If you don't see now, you will. You may not be the smarter than average in your med school class, but that doesn't mean you can't be a superior doctor relative to each and every one of your dull, lifeless, only-know-what-the-textbook-says, classmates.
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro

For example, the name of the structure is Extensor Carpi Radialis Longus. That's it. There is no "understanding" behind it.

Actually that is incorrect. If you do understand the words and how the body moves, not only can you figure out where the muscle is, but the O/I and the function. Musculoskeletal anatomy is much easier if you understand the muscles. Ask any athlete.
stomper
 
First of all, I'm not sure OneStrongBro is trying to rub this subject in anyone's face, he's just pointing out an interesting truth about the selective process of med school. It, like evolution, is founded on taking the best students of the bunch which it feels will be the strongest physicians. What "best" is is determined by the school (aka. environment) which selects that applicant.

To the guy questioning evolution and saying those who "believe" in it are following blindly and are arrogant is just plain foolish. Evolution is a THEORY just like God and the "Bible." However, evolution is more grounded on something we scientists and rational people like to call EVIDENCE; whereas all that ethereal crap is based on a bunch of dudes who claimed to be writing through God who were most likely schizophrenic. It's up to you. If you want to be a fool, so be it, I'm not one to judge (even though I pretty much just did).
 
To say that medical school is all about memorization is a bit short sighted. Medical school is "ALL ABOUT" training you to be a good physician. Yes there is alot to memorize, but to say that this precludes thinking and reasoning is not true. How do you memorize telling someone about their spouse/child dying? How do you memorize knowing when you can send a kid home with a high temp, or when you should admit them to the hospital? How do you memorize telling some teenager that they have HIV?
As a 4th year medical student I've come to realize that what you learn in the first two years of medical school are nothing more than tools that you apply to problems. If you hope to memorize medicine, I think you will really miss some good things about this career.
By the way PowerMD, that was a really good post.
 
Originally posted by Pepe
To say that medical school is all about memorization is a bit short sighted. Medical school is "ALL ABOUT" training you to be a good physician. Yes there is alot to memorize, but to say that this precludes thinking and reasoning is not true. How do you memorize telling someone about their spouse/child dying? How do you memorize knowing when you can send a kid home with a high temp, or when you should admit them to the hospital? How do you memorize telling some teenager that they have HIV?
As a 4th year medical student I've come to realize that what you learn in the first two years of medical school are nothing more than tools that you apply to problems. If you hope to memorize medicine, I think you will really miss some good things about this career.
By the way PowerMD, that was a really good post.

Well stated:clap: :clap: :clap:
 
Originally posted by MDTom
One of my most favorite sigs is:

You are not special, you are not a unique snowflake, you are the same piece of organic decaying flesh as everyone else!

:)

I had it when I first came here, decided to go back to it. I stole it from Fight Club, but I think it really puts people in their place.
 
Originally posted by Pepe
As a 4th year medical student I've come to realize that what you learn in the first two years of medical school are nothing more than tools that you apply to problems.

These are called, "diagnostic algorithms". You memorize a bunch of base criteria, then memorize the algorithms required for certain diagnoses. Sometimes something crazy is thrown in, and you have to decide if it fits into the algorithm or not. Maybe it overlaps with another algorithm.

If you want an almost exact parallel with medicine, troubleshoot computers -- the process is the same. But curiously, people still in high school are quite proficient at it. It doesn't take a lot of cognitive power to follow a bunch of steps.
 
Originally posted by JKDMed
I had it when I first came here, decided to go back to it. I stole it from Fight Club, but I think it really puts people in their place.

You just broke the first rule.
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
The average accepted medical student has a 30 on the mcat.

It doesn't matter where you went to undergrad once you are in medical school.

Let's not compare UNDERGRAD to Medical school. Once you are in medical school, you will realize how foolish your comments are.

The amount of work and academic competition at the worst MD school(they are all accredited by LCME) surpasses Northwestern, Duke, Harvard or any undergraduate program anyday. Trust me.

I have to disagree with this. In general it is probably true, but in my case, for example, undergrad was considerably more difficult than medical school. I don't have to pull all-nighters in med school (at least, not during the first two years). I had to pull a couple of all-nighters a week in undergrad, just to stay caught up. I worked my ass off in undergrad. In med school, I sleep in, study for a few hours, then screw around on the internet all day.
 
Originally posted by goobernaculum

the origins of life is as hairy as the abortion issue. you can't disprove or validate either side. as goes for professors - they have every right to tell their opinions, but you're getting ripped off of your tuition if that's all you're getting.

I agree that evolution is not a perfect or complete theory, but atleast it is a scientific theory. Creationism, however, is an unscientific theory so it has no place in a science class. How do you go about falsifying an unscientific claim? Perhaps creationism is the right theory, but it belongs to a philosophy or theology class not a science class.
 
Originally posted by JKDMed
These are called, "diagnostic algorithms". You memorize a bunch of base criteria, then memorize the algorithms required for certain diagnoses. Sometimes something crazy is thrown in, and you have to decide if it fits into the algorithm or not. Maybe it overlaps with another algorithm.

If you want an almost exact parallel with medicine, troubleshoot computers -- the process is the same. But curiously, people still in high school are quite proficient at it. It doesn't take a lot of cognitive power to follow a bunch of steps.


I can agree with this to some extent, but not completely. If a patient came with a computer monitor that listed for you exactly what diagnostic findings (historical/physical/labs/rads) existed, diagnosing and treating disease would be almost as simple as fixing a computer. A real patient does not tell you what to look for, or what's important. You have to use clinical judgment to decide whether or not that slight rash, pain, or whatever is relevant and worth investigating. The whole "judgment" thing adds much complexity to being a doctor than simply memorization of diagnostic algorithms. Algorithms, medical facts, and treatments all subserve, not replace, a doctor's clinical judgment.
 
Human beings are machines, products of engineering. Natural selection has engineered them to perform a function: to survive and propagate the species. It makes no sense to say that they body was not designed to do something. Does the Krebs cycle not accomplish a specific task?
 
For what it is worth.

I would like to reiterate my very first comment without the bells and whistles. Congratulations on acceptance on medical school. Enjoy your summer, and work hard in medical school.

As for the rest of my comments, I stand by them. Take it for what it is worth.

Although this wasn't my intention for this thread. This might be a good illustration of RULE #1 for medical school. Take whatever advice or comments people might give you as a grain of salt. DO NOT BE ANAL ABOUT IT. If it applies to you, than so be it.

I agree that I am guilty of being oversensitive. However to put it into context, the one thing I can't STAND are people that make comments about something that they haven't even experienced(i.e. medical school).

For the rest of you, you have made some strong valid points except the guy that mentioned that this thread was pointless. Than why did you REPLY? It shoudn't have mattered to you to reply if it was pointless.

Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR.
 
Originally posted by Mr.Tweed
Human beings are machines, products of engineering. Natural selection has engineered them to perform a function: to survive and propagate the species. It makes no sense to say that they body was not designed to do something. Does the Krebs cycle not accomplish a specific task?

Ah yes, you have fallen prey to the platonic theory of teleology (I'm sure it goes further back than plato). Any ways, it is funny how you assume that evolution is directed by a need for a certain function. Teleology = there must be an end all cause in this chain of cause and effect. I.E. a cause preceding all other causes. Plato suggested that there was a God. Are you???

Just a thought.

The purpose of my response is to raise the question of whether or not cause and effect is the right mode of thought. Too often we get caught into a reductionist mode of thinking. I'm not saying reductionism is wrong, just saying it needs to be kept in check every now and then. :cool:
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
However to put it into context, the one thing I can't STAND are people that make comments about something that they haven't even experienced(i.e. medical school).

I do find it equally obnoxious for someone to assume that their individual experience is the be-all-end-all of everyone else's.

But anyway- thanks for the advice and the well-wishes, and the same to you.
 
I agree with MDTom. It's funny how when some people look at a complex part of an organism, wthey automatically assume that it was created for the exact purpose it functions to do. Instead, rather, we should step back and ask what the purpose of evolution is, which created it. The answer, of course, is for survival and propagation of that particular individual. Secondly, there is no engineer, only natural selection by the environment of those traits most beneficial to the individual. To say that Krebs completes a function and gets stuff done means that it was created for that purpose by an engineer is narrow-minded thinking. This cycle was created from one that was much less complex and changed over millions of years due to it's need to adapt to differing environmental pressures, etc and that's why it's the way it is today. It never started off trying to make 3 ATP's, 2 NADH's and 1 FADH or whatever it is. It started off just trying to survive. Ok, sorry to keep on with the evolution theme, but it just bugs me when people don't believe in evolution when they don't even truly understand how it works. Congrats on all who've gotten into med school already!
 
Originally posted by powermd
I can agree with this to some extent, but not completely. If a patient came with a computer monitor that listed for you exactly what diagnostic findings (historical/physical/labs/rads) existed, diagnosing and treating disease would be almost as simple as fixing a computer. A real patient does not tell you what to look for, or what's important. You have to use clinical judgment to decide whether or not that slight rash, pain, or whatever is relevant and worth investigating. The whole "judgment" thing adds much complexity to being a doctor than simply memorization of diagnostic algorithms. Algorithms, medical facts, and treatments all subserve, not replace, a doctor's clinical judgment.

To be fair, a computer doesn't always tell you what the problem is, either. You have to use knowledge and judgment to decide where you should focus your investigation. Sometimes huge processor usage is an effect, not a cause. You have to test different configurations to narrow down the potential cause.

I know people, especially medical students, don't like to hear that their glorious accomplishment may not be all that glorius, but what can you do?
 
Originally posted by SarahGM
Ummmm... I would say that I lot of us had this experience in *undergrad*, especially at the very selective schools. I can't speak for everyone, but I sure had a severe ego beating my freshman year.

I would even say some of us had this experience in *high school*, even those of us who attend selective undergrads. At some point or another, you're going to reach a place where you are no longer the top dog. It hits you hard, you don't expect it, but over time, you accept it and learn to adjust. You learn that sometimes being average isn't so bad, especially when you'll be so much better prepared for what comes next. Shout outs to the average people everywhere. ;)
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro
For example, the name of the structure is Extensor Carpi Radialis Longus. That's it. There is no "understanding" behind it.

No way!! The most fun part about AP Bio was the understanding behind such esoteric terms. If you break apart the Greek or Latin origins of the words, it makes perfect sense, and not only do you learn the science, but you understand the etymology.

Sadly, there's never much time to learn all of the roots behind such terms, and then yes it does become a memorizing game.
 
Since "missing links" are present in the evolutionary chain and certain characteristics cannot be scientifically explained, why is it so difficult to grasp intelligent design?

I predict we will see evolution and creationism continue on a convergent pathway.

With the complexity of life, the immense number of combinations found in the double helix, what makes everyone think we just stumbled on this combination out of trillions possible?

Liberalism and atheism/agnosticism are very prevalent in the college community, especially with instructors. Many have been influenced during college by their "peers." Science cannot explain everything. Not everything can be boiled down to logic or explanation. Think about instinct or "gut feel." Talk to doc's that have witnessed first hand the workings of a higher power that defies all scientific explanation. Just keep an open mind as to what possibilities exist.

Have you ever spoken at length with someone that has had a near death experience? That alone will convince you that the soul and the body are seperate entities. My uncle was hit 13 times with the paddles and was clinically dead for 2.5 minutes. His experiences were incredible.

Liberals typically feel that abortion is OK too. I dare you to look at a fetus older than 2 weeks and tell me that it is not a living creature. It may not survive on its own at 2 weeks, but it is certainly no mole either.

Life experience is a great teacher, that is why conservatism typically increases with age. Talk to me when you have some gray hair and no pimples. Heck, in the last 20 years the scientific community has flip-flopped on what constitutes the smallest subatomic constituent. The current understanding has invalidated earlier teachings.
 
Quote: "Secondly, there is no engineer, only natural selection by the environment of those traits most beneficial to the individual. To say that Krebs completes a function and gets stuff done means that it was created for that purpose by an engineer is narrow-minded thinking."

MDTom and Travellin Doc. You both clearly misunderstand my post, and I think it is you who are guilty of narrow-minded thinking. I'm saying that NATURAL SELECTION IS A DESIGNER. It designs organisms that are better suited for survival and reproduction in a given environment. I'll reiterate, human beings are machines that have been engineered by natural selection to survive and propagate the species.

Don't be so quick to respond and criticize one's view unless you understand what one is saying. If you take teleological to mean "directed toward an end" then yes, my view is somewhat teleological. Natural selection can be directed toward an end. If you take a large population of bacteria and expose it to antibiotics, then natural selection will select for those bacteria that are resistant to the antibiotic. If you present natural selection with a design problem, then natural selection will often attempt to solve the problem. Do I mean that natural selection is literally a thinking, planning thing like a person. Obviously not. But I see no problem with saying that natural selection operates with a "purpose" or that it's products have a "purpose." Clearly I don't mean it as literally as you think that I do. Does the Krebs cycle serve a purpose? Yes, a very specific purpose. It oxidizes acetyl CoA, and natural selection "designed" it to do so. Do humans beings serve a purpose?" Yes, they are gene machines, and natural selection designed them to be effective ones.
 
Originally posted by OrthoFixation
Since "missing links" are present in the evolutionary chain and certain characteristics cannot be scientifically explained, why is it so difficult to grasp intelligent design?

With the complexity of life, the immense number of combinations found in the double helix, what makes everyone think we just stumbled on this combination out of trillions possible?

Liberals typically feel that abortion is OK too. I dare you to look at a fetus older than 2 weeks and tell me that it is not a living creature. It may not survive on its own at 2 weeks, but it is certainly no mole either.
I will consder your separate paragraphs to be your points 1,2, and 3. I will address them indivisually.

Point 1: What characteristics cannot be scientifically explained? The popular challenge put forth by creationists is the eye, but even that is explained pretty thoroughly by evolution. By "missing links" I assume you mean in the human evolutionary chain, and to be perfectly honest those are very small, and there is only one "missing link" that actually occurred at an important evolutionary point. And even at that point, we have a fossil record, just no complete skeletons.

Point 2: We reached this combination through extensive trial and error. As did the other millions of species in the world. And as did all the billions of genetic individuals within those millions of species (and millions of extinct species), all based on the double helix. After billions of years, with mutations or recombinations occurring at nearly every mating or division, why is it so hard to understand why we are just one functioning result of countless changes in the genome?

Point 3: Do your research. Look at a fetus at even 5 weeks or so. It is phenotypically identical to any mammal at that point, and not too far off from a fish. Your lack of knowledge of developmental biology is astounding for someone who is trying to sound like you are spouting off legitimate facts in this matter. In fact, I strongly suggest you try taking a developmental bio course at some point. It may lead you to very interesting information that will do some serious damage to your intelligent design idea.

There was some creationist literature that published a list of scientists who believed in intelligent design, in order to make their stance seem legitimate in the scientific world. A group of biologists, angry at that, published an equally long list of scientists named Stephen who believed in evolution, in honor of Stephen J. Gould. I hardly think that belief in evolution is due to some brainwashing of many of the most intelligent people on the planet. It comes from knowledge of the facts, and all the facts point toward evolution being the correct idea.
 
Originally posted by OneStrongBro

Furthermore, I dare you to try to "analyze and understand" anatomy, neuroanatomy, or histology. It is fruitless.

For example, the name of the structure is Extensor Carpi Radialis Longus. That's it. There is no "understanding" behind it.


I understand your point about needing to memorize the names of the structures, but I think your choice of structure is not good. The arm and leg muscle names are the ones that actually make sense- extensor gives the function of the muscle, carpi gives the attachement and function (extends the wrist- it's not a digitorum muscle), radialis meaning it's on the radial side (and attaches somewhere on the radial side) and longus (so when u are identifying it on a practical it has a long tendon).

I had a harder time memorizing muscle names such as pectineus, which give no clue as to their function or location.
 
Umass:

Thanks for the response. I do not want to come off as a religious zealot. During and after college, I was an agnostic. My views have moved to the religion camp over the last 10 years. I do believe in natural selection although not in full agreement with Darwins views in his famous book on the subject.

Point 1: The human evolutionary chain is studied primarily by examining teeth, not fossils. My anthropology prof or book called out 90% of morphology came from studying cusps and depressions in dental remains (or fossilized impressions of the teeth). Other fossils make up the balance. While this could be wrong, that is what I was taught in the late '80s. There is a huge gap in the chain as you mentioned. No link from neanderthal man to homo hablis, if my memory serves correctly.

The thing that bothers me is that throughout all of this evolution, still 97% of the DNA of all living animals is the same. So where is the evolution. Is it simply that DNA is a set of instructions and only certain verses are implemented for different creatures? Where I cannot blindly follow evolution is the major leap from single cell creatures to multicellur organ system based creatures. I realize there is more than one step, but I just can't swallow it.

Point 2: Trial and error & honing the design: Yes. From sea bacteria to humans: No. Common building blocks for living organisms I have no problem with. It is no different than writing computer code utilizing blocks or applets that do certain functions, creating a new entity by creating a new combination of blocks.

Point 3: My lack of developmental biology is not astounding for a non-biology major. I do not claim to be an expert. I just offered my opinion. The stem cell differentiation that goes on during development of the fetus is nothing short of incredible. Without understanding of this fundament tenet, how can one express full understanding of development and evolution? My viewpoint on abortion was founded after taking anatomy. That was the point I intended to make. I disagree that all the facts point to evolution as the onlly answer.

In 8th grade (1980) I was taught that the smallest subatomic components were the proton, nuetron, and electron (particularly electrons). This was based on the best understanding at the time. Accepted as facts. Today, we know that to be false with qwarks (sp?) and the like. This is yet another example of our viewpoint reflecting the current level of scientific understanding. I believe growth in our understanding will bring us back to science and religion converging at a future time.

While I may be in the minority, I can not swallow the evolution bait, et al. I do appreciate your opinions and the respectful manner of presentation.
 
In 8th grade you were lied to. I'm pretty sure we knew about particles that were smaller than protons and neutrons by then.
 
Originally posted by Rendar5
In 8th grade you were lied to. I'm pretty sure we knew about particles that were smaller than protons and neutrons by then.

I'm a bit younger & I was taught the same thing. Keep in mind, textbooks are usually a number of years behind research.

As another example: my 7th grade science text said that all digestion occurs in the stomach.
 
True, true. I'm just still peeved over my 8th grade chemistry education. My 8th grade textbook and teacher both taught me the Bohr model of the atom and I believed it for a couple years until learning in high school that I was taught a model that was 80 years out of date.

And in 7th grade I was taught (and by a good science teacher too) that we couldn't see atoms because they were too small. That one might be considered ok since scanning tunneling electron microscopes weren't widely known.
 
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