Thoughts on SIR should IR leave DR talk

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NDcienporciento100

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I heard a lot of people speak on this subject not just at this one form. I listened to multiple people. IR’s have no leverage when they are doing rudimentary IR biopsies and drains. IR has a lot of leverage when they are doing high end cases. When IR is doing, high end cases they make a lot of money for the hospital. I heard someone in PP that IR had disputes with DR over money and they said they were going to leave collectively the group. DR immediately caved in to this thought because they knew that the hospital would not have been happy. High end practices also can ask for a stipends when they’re doing high in cases. But if you’re doing lines, biopsies and drains you have no leverage. DR is going to run all over you.

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I’m going to be honest, I think it’s a terrible idea for a number of reasons that would take me a while to delineate, but the most important reason comes out to be that it would be a financial catastrophe for IRs who would not be able to maintain anything near to the quality of life they have now.
 
A lot of IR’s sit around purposely try to do as little as possible and say no to everything and suck their pay check from DR. Yes those will have problems. But IRs that are doing good clinical IR and bringing value to their group and hospital I disagree. Remember there are hospital employed IR jobs out there that pay 600k per year starting. They’re not paying them to do lines and drains.
 
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The details matter, and have not been critically evaluated.

The assumptions everyone is making with the split is the clean break of all IRs who are now no longer tied down by exclusivity contracts. That of course means the DR groups will NOT want to subsidize the IRs in their group, and will simply tell the contract hospital that as the specialties are now split, they are no longer bound to provide the service. The existing IRs will be told to read 100% DR or walk. The median IR does 50/50 IR/DR, half less than that, half more, some rudimentary math implies that you are now going to have over a relatively short time scale (very roughly) twice is many IRs as there is a need. Some may be happy to drop out of procedures, but many will be unwillingly forced to become diagnostic radiologists given the abrupt oversupply, and IR will contract to a 100% gig.

The long and short of my point is that a split from DR will render the IR job market bloated with too many people to do procedures, and your ability to leverage a high salary despite performing poorly reimbursed procedures is because of the DR skillset. Moreover, the market niche for higher paying elective IR procedures is completely indeterminate, and the split will force a whole bunch of people to make enormous quality of life sacrifices to re-establish themselves, all at once.

Details: Once a clean split has happened, DR may no longer want to educate IR residents enough to board certify them as diagnosticians. And once that happens, your ability to leverage your salary is gone out the window. There is no formal pathway to an established practice to recruit highly reimbursed complex procedures that people can follow like a cook-book. There is no formal analysis done to even determine the size of the market niche for what IR is capable of performing electively. Many will stumble and fail establishing practice as they realize their market is too glutted and they don’t want to shoulder the enormous startup costs, that hospitals will often not be as interested in them starting up an endovascular practice as they hoped, and the specialty will find itself heaped in uncertain, bleak looking chaos for years as it tries to stabilize itself in a future where it has little to no bargaining power with congress/CMS because of the small size and SIR’s weakness, where you don’t know the layout / accessibility for the market for your procedures, and where you’re competing in desirable markets against much larger, more formally established, and on average more clinically competent Vascular surgeons and cardiologists, all the while battling an abrupt oversupply of IRs for the same small piece of the pie. Individual IRs will be forced to shoulder advertising costs and business-building obligations, what they are more than capable of doing now through the existing DR practice schema, especially in this job market where you have a much easier time tailoring a specific setup (within reason).

Look, I love IR. I love the high end work. But the call for the IR split is driven by angry zealots who are thinking too much with their limbic system and nowhere near enough with their prefrontal cortex. They haven’t dreamed of the horrible trap they’re setting themselves up for. Moreover, I’m proud to be a diagnostic radiologist. I love the skillset that comes with it. I think it’s feasible with enough careful planning and discussion with a practice, and setting reasonable expectations for both parties, to build up a service you both find valuable.

Not every practice is like this. But if you approach with a highly detailed game plan and set specific, exact expectations—so long as the DR group is not subsidizing a whole bunch of your pay—they probably just won’t care. It depends on how much of your own time, blood, sweat, tears, and own money you want to contribute to building your practice. At least with the DR partnership you have the option. But the split will force you into making the sacrifice, without the enormous benefit of the added safety.
 
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Put aside these small little hospitals in the middle of nowhere. Those types of hospitals don’t even have a lot of sub specialty services to begin with. All real hospitals need IR to function. So it makes me upset when people say DR carry’s IR. IR carry’s the contract for these DR’s. If a radiology group decided to stop providing IR services that group would be kicked out sooner then later in most cases. It would infuriate not only the administration of the hospital, but referring providers. IR carry’s DR not the other way around regardless of what they make in RVUs.
 
Bottom line: there are groups out there going to their IRs saying yah you are doing all these great procedures that take care of patients but that does not compensate so you should take a paycut. I’m here to say that is bs. If you and your IR partners are doing good work and this happens to you then unit as a group of IRs and say we are going to leave the group if this happens. 100% the DR group will cave. The hospital administration and referring physicians will make them cave. But a lot of IRs are allowing themselves to be intimidated but DR and it’s not right.
 
Agree VIR with multiple service lines and comprehensive clinic can be indispensable. The services of any specialist is financed by the hospital. The hospital billing for PE admission/ ICU/ thrombectomy is very high and the downstream revenue of having a PERT team can not be understated. A PAD service line with limb salvage. Spine interventions (kyphoplasty/spinejack/ablation). Pain interventions (RF/spinal cord stims etc). Neuro (stroke). BPH and fibroid therapy are all examples of service lines. Not to mention hepatobiliary and oncology. This does take investment of time and money and hospitals that are forward thinking will invest in this. DR if they don't want to pay for VIR service or provide the clinic time and infrastructure should allow VIR physicians to directly interact with the hospital and garner that contract. It is a win win. DR can focus on professional fees and imaging and VIR can be paid a service contract and get clinical infrastructure to provide high end interventional care.
 
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The current paradigm is interesting because it seems to me that IR does have a lot of flexibility to be independent in the OBL space, do more complex IR work in 100% IR jobs (academic or community) or seek out some mix of IR/DR which may or may not include higher level stuff. This doesn’t even include those who decide to pivot and go completely back into general DR. I totally understand why someone would be frustrated if they are seeking the higher complexity cases with clinic evaluation etc and are doing what a well trained DR could do (biopsies, drains and LPs).

Looking at it from a DR perspective, if IR decides to break away completely from DR then what incentive do programs have to train an IR in body, chest, neuro etc knowing that A. This person will not be contributing to the DR call pool as an R4 when they are most effective and B. They are not even really a future peer/potential colleague? I mean we get RadOnc and other residents coming through and happy to give some pointers but they are only here for a month and aren’t trying to be equivalent to a radiologist. Meanwhile IR spends 3 years learning to be a DR first and takes the same boards to establish equivalency. Don’t be quick to dismiss the notion that if IR breaks off from DR then that could very well mean training adjusts and trainees then being siloed into ONLY practicing IR. Perhaps that’s what a number of IRs want, I have no idea, but I also know plenty like to throw in DR shifts here and there, sometimes even going completely back to DR as they hit later in their career. I just don’t see a scenario in which IR is truly a totally different field and DRs continue to invest 3 years training them for non-procedural skills.
 
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There is a high attrition rate from IR to DR during residency. Students are unaware or don't know what taking interventional call and weekends can really look like. They are often not ready for the emergency nature and more rigorous lifestyle of IR. DR job market, lifestyle, finances, remote reading opportunity and flexibility is hard to beat if that is what you are looking for.

Much of what an IR needs to know is really based on angiograms. Neurology and Neurosurgery have become quite adept at cerebral angiography and are better than most radiologists and even some of the more recent neuroradiology graduates (cerebral angiography used to be a requirement of neurorads fellowships but no longer). As we do more PE work and thrombectomy, echocardiography is very important. For the modern day interventionalist, endoscopy is becoming more and more important for biliary, GU , gallbladder, intestinal work that people are doing. Ortho/msk /pain interventions require a deep understanding of peripheral nerves and that is not taught well in DR training. From a vascular disease standpoint it is important to understand non invasive vascular (PVR/segmentals/ABI/toe pressures/TcP02) which is rarely taught in DR training as well.
 
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Imaging is no longer the purview of only radiology. Every surgical specialty uses imaging and has gotten quite good at it. Urology uses advanced imaging including MRI for prostate interventions and biopsies. Cardiology/cardiac surgery use echo/cta etc for tavr and structural work. IR does not own a single organ and is at the whims of whoever refers patients. PAE referrals at many places are mostly from urology and not from primary care or patients. Most IR are not taught how to manage LUTS/qmax/finasteride/flomax/triage PSA deal with bladder issues etc.

DR will rarely give a clinical VIR adequate time and resources to run a proper clinic. Most IR are relegated to piccs/para/thora/drains/ arthrogram/myelograms and film reading in between cases. In order to build a sustainable high end VIR practice you need an office to see and counsel patients and offer non operative management and follow them longitudinally.
 
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I think IR has a lot more to lose from an IR/DR split than DR does.

The academic IRs who are pushing for the split will be fine in their 100% IR jobs at major medical centers.

I can't say the same will be true for the majority of community practice IRs.

This seems to be one of those ideas that arise from the academic echo chamber that isn't aware of the realities of community practice in most smaller hospitals out there.
 
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The DR will be more likely to give up the IR and Pseudo exclusive contracts will go. There may not be as many IR out in practice, but there will be more offering pain/spine interventions, dialysis , pad, neuro/stroke/ bph/ fibroids/ dvt and pe work. The current graduates are becoming more and more frustrated as they deal with DR colleagues who don't provide clinical infrastructure and are forced to do lite IR and imaging on IR days which keeps the IR doctor there later and later each day. The DR state they "subsidize" the IR salary.
 
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There are workarounds to the clinical infrastructure problem other than DR subsidization. Getting the contract hospital to provide clinical infrastructure is something many surgical practices do.
 
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That is the key. But, pseudo exclusive contracts prevent independent VIR groups from negotiating with the hospital. Perhaps as private equity continues to expand and increase their footprint in radiology they will have to give up the costly IR component. This way the hospital will directly recruit interventionalists.
 
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That is the key. But, pseudo exclusive contracts prevent independent VIR groups from negotiating with the hospital. Perhaps as private equity continues to expand and increase their footprint in radiology they will have to give up the costly IR component. This way the hospital will directly recruit interventionalists.
Negotiating with the hospital, WHILE IN the DR group.
 
The problem is that the DR lists are only getting longer and it is very hard to recruit DR physicians. It is much easier to hire an IR to do DR and do "simple" IR . The goal of those practices is to limit IR growth. The opportunity of cost of taking a person from clearing the list is too high to allow an IR to build a practice. This is good in the short term for the DR group but it prevents organic sustainable growth that a comprehensive VIR clinic can develop. There is no simple solution to the unending needs for imaging interpretation and that currently trumps everything.
 
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The problem is that the DR lists are only getting longer and it is very hard to recruit DR physicians. It is much easier to hire an IR to do DR and do "simple" IR . The goal of those practices is to limit IR growth. The opportunity of cost of taking a person from clearing the list is too high to allow an IR to build a practice. This is good in the short term for the DR group but it prevents organic sustainable growth that a comprehensive VIR clinic can develop. There is no simple solution to the unending needs for imaging interpretation and that currently trumps everything.

Right, which is why you need to very clearly delineate expectations early on in the hiring process and tell them frankly that your goal is to grow the procedure line and decrease list reading contribution—with the benefit of IR not being a loss leader down the road.

If you spell it out very frankly in absolutely no uncertain terms, they’ll not consider the offer if they have a specific goal for you. But it is a feasible path.
 
In an ideal world that may work. Challenge is the VIR graduate has geographic limitations , financial obligations an often don't have the luxury of multiple options. But, I agree you have to at least ask for dedicated clinic time, clinic infrastructure and ability to market and brand the various clinical service lines.
 
I don’t know what the right answer is. But I don’t think abandoning everything we learn about imagining is the answer either. I do think a handful of programs are doing it right the UVA’s of the world. Higher end imaging and clinical IR. But there are a lot of programs that are doing it wrong. At the first ACR meets SIR townhall discussion the head of the MGH program was very vocal about staying with DR. For those on this forum that don’t know there IR at MGH is extremely week. High volume IO department and that’s about it. Boston and most of the Northeast US in general has week IR. The radiology department at MGH on the other hand is a powerhouse top 5 program in the US.
 
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Splitting IR training separate completely from DR is a mistake.

What would training even look like? You'd end up a worse surgeon and a mediocre radiologist. The unique power in IR is being a radiologist. There are only 3 (really 2) imaging trained specialties, DR, IR and NM. That is a valuable and unique ability that would be unwise to take away from IR.

The problem with the exclusive contracts is difficult to disentangle though I agree. Groups with DR/IR contracts do not want to give up the IR portion. It's a lot of money from the hospital to throw away. Some have though and have become pure WFH DR practices with a 2nd pure IR group, but this model is less common.

I don't know how to solve this problem. Maybe it doesn't need solving.

Right now, if you want to do 100% clinical IR, your main options are OBL and academics. Private or employed gigs will be mostly 50/50.

Maybe that's how people will decide for their practice. Full IR people go to OBLs or academia and others go the old ways.
 
I think there are many specialties that use imaging and do it well. Cardiac anesthesia with TEE, cardiology with nuclear, echo, angiography. Neurosurgery with CT , MRI of brain and spine. Vascular surgery with vascular us. Radiology will not make you comfortable with pelvic angiography and prostatic angiographic anatomy. I could take a 100 diagnostic radiologists and the majority would not be able to interpret a pelvic angiogram and id the prostatic artery comfortably. Even a more senior VIR with angiographic experience will take time to get comfortable with the prostatic artery anatomy and the variants and intraprostatic collaterals.

Imaging is most useful in the role of biopsy, there I could see the benefit of radiology .

As far as 100 pct VIR outside of OBL/accademics this is also changing. Look at vir Chicago as one of the original ones. More and more VIR are taking over hospital contracts. DR groups and mixed IR/DR groups have to let those independent IR the ability to get hospital privileges.
 
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I think there are many specialties that use imaging and do it well. Cardiac anesthesia with TEE, cardiology with nuclear, echo, angiography. Neurosurgery with CT , MRI of brain and spine. Vascular surgery with vascular us. Radiology will not make you comfortable with pelvic angiography and prostatic angiographic anatomy. I could take a 100 diagnostic radiologists and the majority would not be able to interpret a pelvic angiogram and id the prostatic artery comfortably. Even a more senior VIR with angiographic experience will take time to get comfortable with the prostatic artery anatomy and the variants and intraprostatic collaterals.

Imaging is most useful in the role of biopsy, there I could see the benefit of radiology .

As far as 100 pct VIR outside of OBL/accademics this is also changing. Look at vir Chicago as one of the original ones. More and more VIR are taking over hospital contracts. DR groups and mixed IR/DR groups have to let those independent IR the ability to get hospital

Hospital administrators like when IR is busy with high end procedures. It makes the hospital a lot of money. If you as a group of IRs are doing stroke,PE, bleeds, Acute limb ischemia, high volume IO, high volume PAD,Aorta work, High Volume high end pain, and a mix of bread and butter stuff the hospital needs then the radiology group your apart of won’t be able to touch you. At the end of the day you will be so indispensable to the hospital you could even go to the hospital and say 1500/night regardless of if we get called in at night and they will likely give it to you. Whoever if your the group of IRs that says “I don’t feel comfortable because I did not learn that in my training”, say no and try to block every procedure with stupid excuses you as an IR will be useless to everyone. The hospital will hate you because they will likely have to hire someone to do that service, and your group will becouse you don’t make enough RVUs. And by the way that last scenario is the more common one.
 
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It is important as you build your VIR practice to track 1) number of hospital admissions to your service 2) number of imaging studies you ordered 3) value of the procedure (technical component) 4) consults of other services that you requested. These all have to be uniquely referred to you from outside your organization's traditional catch area. ie if the transplant surgeon consults you for local/regional treatment it is the surgeon brining in the patient to the hospital system. If you are the individual that garnered the referral from a competing hospital's catch area or outside of your region and you are seen as that patient's doctor. Now you are seen as the one bringing in referrals to the facility.

On the contrary, if the hospital is forced to transfer patients out for an "IR " procedure to a competing hospital, that can be seen by the hospital administrators as a huge red flag.
 
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Hospital administrators like when IR is busy with high end procedures. It makes the hospital a lot of money. If you as a group of IRs are doing stroke,PE, bleeds, Acute limb ischemia, high volume IO, high volume PAD,Aorta work, High Volume high end pain, and a mix of bread and butter stuff the hospital needs then the radiology group your apart of won’t be able to touch you. At the end of the day you will be so indispensable to the hospital you could even go to the hospital and say 1500/night regardless of if we get called in at night and they will likely give it to you. Whoever if your the group of IRs that says “I don’t feel comfortable because I did not learn that in my training”, say no and try to block every procedure with stupid excuses you as an IR will be useless to everyone. The hospital will hate you because they will likely have to hire someone to do that service, and your group will becouse you don’t make enough RVUs. And by the way that last scenario is the more common one.
Problem is you cannot fully fill it out like that because someone needs to do lines/drains/biopsies. If there is a separate IR contract, DR is gonna be more than happy to let it go because those make barely any money.
 
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Problem is you cannot fully fill it out like that because someone needs to do lines/drains/biopsies. If there is a separate IR contract, DR is gonna be more than happy to let it go because those make barely any money.
Most “real hospitals” not some 80 bed hospital in northern Nebraska, have a picc service that takes care of picc lines. Drains and biopsies can be done in between big cases or by a PA depending on the case.

If the contract was separate that means the hospital would have to pay those IRs a salary which would piss the hospital off. And who do you think they’re going to take it out on. The DR group for which RadPartners will gladly take that contract from given the opportunity. If you have strong IR in your group it makes it much harder for an outside group to come in and take over.
 
Most “real hospitals” not some 80 bed hospital in northern Nebraska, have a picc service that takes care of picc lines. Drains and biopsies can be done in between big cases or by a PA depending on the case.

If the contract was separate that means the hospital would have to pay those IRs a salary which would piss the hospital off. And who do you think they’re going to take it out on. The DR group for which RadPartners will gladly take that contract from given the opportunity. If you have strong IR in your group it makes it much harder for an outside group to come in and take over.
The average US hospital is 120 beds. So most hospitals in the US are going to be small to mid sized community hospitals. Some will have a nurse PICC service, but a lot will not. I know this forum is skewed to the large 300+ bed hospitals, but that is not reflective of most hospitals. A lot of IRs covering community hospitals also are covering a handful of these small hospitals.

Also, may be a controversial opinion, but I do not think PAs should be doing image guided drains/biopsies. I have seen too many disasters even by IRs, let alone people who have 0 imaging training.

Agree, but RadPartners is collapsing in many large cities as they have expanded too rapidly without adequate staff. People have realized they are a terrible model and enough have refused to work for them and avoided them that their model may not be fully sustainable.

Of course, there's definitely a lot of places where IR has its own contract doing high level only cases that are thriving but that is the exception rather than the rule.
 
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Small hospitals will not have many services. That environment will be a rate limiting step. For any subspeciality not just IR.
 
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My group ditched IR, told the hospital to deal with it, and currently I couldn’t be happier. The idea that IR “holds the contract” is some 2008 boomer thinking. It ain’t true. Not in this market.
 
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My group ditched IR, told the hospital to deal with it, and currently I couldn’t be happier. The idea that IR “holds the contract” is some 2008 boomer thinking. It ain’t true. Not in this market.
What size hospital? What practice setting are you in? I guarantee its some hospital in the middle of nowhere or some tiny little hospital. 100% it is not a level one trauma center or a hospital that does tertiary level care.
 
My group ditched IR, told the hospital to deal with it, and currently I couldn’t be happier. The idea that IR “holds the contract” is some 2008 boomer thinking. It ain’t true. Not in this market.

Invariably the IR work is gonna get subsidized by them. Either by making up the difference to cover the IR’s salary in the group, or by employing them directly at a diagnostic market rate. Honestly part time employment of the IR with the hospital and with the radiology group contracted to the hospital may end up being a pretty good solution. No exclusionary contracts. Clinical and procedural infrastructure to practice build. Moonlighting opportunity for supplemental income. Hospital employment for loan forgiveness. Hospital is also incentivized this way to maybe cover the advertising cost of practice building, as it more directly benefits their bottom line.
 
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