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Traumeel Facet Injections??

Discussion in 'Pain Medicine' started by mid|ine, 09.21.10.

  1. mid|ine

    mid|ine Interventional Spine

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    OK, has anyone heard of this? Looks like quackary to me.

    http://ohiopainmanagement.com/index.shtml

    http://ohiopainmanagement.com/for_doctors.shtml

  2. Mister Mxyzptlk

    Mister Mxyzptlk

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  3. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve www.stevenlobel.com Lifetime Donor

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    Traumeel- "It's the new Sarapin"

    They came around when I was a fellow and gave us free topicals to dispense. They also offered to sell us injectable versions. We were not interested in a proprietary blend of herbs and spices for human injection. Chicken- yes. Mom- no.
  4. pmrmd

    pmrmd

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    i've used traumeel mainly for diabetics who could use a little relief but sugars elevate too much with steroid. it works okay. some people prefer it actually. i think its a nice option to provide people. there is a practice around here that uses only traumeel, but its like an ob-gyn and general surgeon doing FJI and SJI and its like wtf.
  5. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    Traumeel is literally a homeopathic preparation for MSK injuries and pain. There are really no detectable levels of herbs and spices in it. Traumeel has a huge name recognition and brand loyalty amongst the alternative medicine crowd...you can be 99% certain that Traumeel is recognized by almost any alternative medicine patient....
  6. specepic

    specepic

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    Looking at the ingredients it appears as though it is injectable Jagermeister

    " rendering the vessels impervious " love it!
  7. PMR 4 MSK

    PMR 4 MSK Large Member SDN Advisor

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    If it walks like a duck...
  8. Tenesma

    Tenesma Senior Member

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    did you see the credentials of the pain doctor???
  9. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    it seems the must make their money on the Traumeel itself. Its the only thing they inject? and are facets the only thing they inject?
  10. mid|ine

    mid|ine Interventional Spine

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    looking at the site it looks like yes to both, traumeel is the only thing she injects and only into the facets, at least best I can tell...
  11. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    i mean that seems perfectly logical and legit...uggh.
  12. pjuer

    pjuer New Member

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    Also has a hyphenated last name. :D
  13. facets

    facets

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  14. mid|ine

    mid|ine Interventional Spine

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    Sounds like they really rack up the $$$$$

    Seems like they do mostly facets, though they also mention:

  15. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    i totally believe in that phenomenon...
  16. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    Oh yes any hyphenated last name is a massive red flag in any patient. If its a man with a hyphenated last name run out of your office as fast as you can...
  17. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    Did you see this on the same website?!

    "Comfort Technology ™
    Comfort Technology™ was designed by our Doctors to help make advanced pain intervention procedures more comfortable for even the most sensitive patients. The medications and the techniques used by AZ Pain Centers were developed to eliminate pain, not cause more.
    The Physicians at AZ Pain Centers searched the globe to find advanced methods for eliminating pain. During our research we discovered exciting new techniques and devices that we incorporate into our regular treatment protocols to add both safety and comfort.
    As an added benefit we use these techniques for every procedure we do, which is why many of our patients describe our procedures as “just a little pressure” or “nothing at all”. This amazing benefit you’ll find only at AZ Pain Centers."

    What the hell are they talking about?
  18. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    "Reiner Kremer, NMD, MPH
    Dr. Reiner Kremer received his premedical training at Rutgers University and the National University of Health Sciences. He graduated from naturopathic medical school in 2001 from the American University of Integrative Medicine. While there, he was initially trained in interventional pain management at the Arizona Surgical Hospital by Drew Collins, ND. "

    Say Whaaaaaat??? :(
  19. geauxg8rs

    geauxg8rs

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    Wow, what an informative website! They Understand your Pain!

    Just not the anatomy of the SATELLITE ganglion.
    Is it named the SATELLITE GANGLION because it orbits around your body? If this is the case I need to make sure I keep my SGBs scheduled for the morning for fear of missing it in when it orbits around uranus in the evening?
    Just a thought.

    Unreal. I 100% agree with the hyphenated sentiment.
  20. pjuer

    pjuer New Member

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    Professional memberships include the Naturopathic Academy of Therapeutic Injection and the American Society of Interventional Pain Physicians.

    Does ASIPP let naturopaths join? I did not know that they were licensed to do interventional procedures.
  21. Tenesma

    Tenesma Senior Member

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    on a flight 5 years ago i was sitting next to a guy reading a medical textbook... i asked him what he did - he responded that he was an interventional pain specialist... I said: "no way, so am I... where do you practice"... He back-tracked "i am really a naturopath who does interventions"

    This ND (based in Utah) had a completely interventional pain practice (injections only, and some vitamins, no other co-management) - all cash based.... NO fluoroscopy... facets, epidurals, botox... and stated he was quite successful because the next closest pain doc was 120 miles away....

    yikes
  22. azethical

    azethical

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    so, I stumbled across this discussion, so though I'd rant.

    This place in AZ, where I am located and a practicing interventional pain specialist, is a total scam. The only really qualified provider they recently had just left to open his own place here in scottsdale. unfortunately, he also does this Traumeel stuff, so the scam continues. I have patients coming to me all the time complaining about how that had a ton of injections and only relief for a few weeks at best. But that's ok...because we'll just do it again! Seriously, 6-8 level "facet" injections (if they are even in the facet) with Traumeel done weekly for 3-4 weeks and repeat as necessary? This is absolutely raping the system and has already triggered a Noridian (Medicare) response to pull in the reigns. This gal on the link above came from this same system, and no offense, but primary care docs, or anyone else should not be doing interventional pain procedures without the residency or fellowship training to support it. Not the 'weekend warriors'.

    If this stuff was so great, we'd all be doing it. Better off with RFA, if you have the right diagnosis and give someone a chance for months/year + relief. These folks and many like them are straight out killing this specialty for the years to come.
  23. facets

    facets

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    Anyone have any new thoughts on this stuff? This AZ Pain Centers has a massive marketing machine and a ton of people who have received these injections. Most of them have no relief and go elsewhere but one patient, whom I know socially and is very level headed said she got relief for over a year when traummel was injected into her hands. She does not want "steroid injections" and asked if I could do this. I said OK I'll order a bottle for you. I would never use this stuff around the spine but in the hands I'll give it a try. What do you think guys? Would you do it or not?
  24. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve www.stevenlobel.com Lifetime Donor

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    Tell her to go back to the other guy. This way you do no harm and also don't give the impression some quack is better at giving injections than you. It was good timing or placebo effect.
  25. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    Ditto...33% chance of working...
  26. pmrmd

    pmrmd

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    It seems to be fairly benign. I have a few folks who want only this so I have it and it works well enough. No problems after facet injections. No problems after peripheral joint/tendon injections. I saw records from a different place here that injected it epidurally as well and the patient had no negative sequellae from it. No way I would do that though.
  27. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    AZ pain centers does indeed have a massive marketing machine. A pain doc here in WA state is buddys with them and is implementing the same model. Subscribe the narcs whether appropriate or not, inject, kick them out if they don't want injections. Never meet the actual physician until they are in the procedure room. NPs run all the clinic visits and consults. Its a travesty.
  28. foxtrot

    foxtrot Member

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    Unfortunately, this is going to be the downfall of pain. I wonder what is going to happen when ACO's start to come into play? It is unfortunate because these kinds of practices are all to common in pain.
  29. painstop

    painstop Pain Attending

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    I tend to agree with the ACO comment. If a group of PCPs are going to lose some of their share of the check if they have to refer out to specialists I think pain physicians will be one of the first ones that take a hit. Right now, they think of pain physicians as opiate refillers that happen to do some "shots" to make some money on the side. Unless properly educated, they will send the pts to back surgeons when things get really bad. They simply don't want to deal with the headache of opiate prescribing right now but when their money is on the line they will likely have a newfound tolerance for prescribing.

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