Trouble in Camelot (MD Anderson)?

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ratherbefishing

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The Cancer Letter Special Issue - March 29, 2013
publication date: Mar 29, 2013
Vol. 39, No. 13 -

MD Anderson Faculty Slam Leadership, Question Moon Shots, Bemoan Workload
In Their Own Words: A 64-page Internal Report with over 1,500 Faculty Comments on MD Anderson Morale

http://www.cancerletter.com/articles/20130329


Not sure if anyone knows if some of the troubles at the top have affected the training programs?

Members don't see this ad.
 
The Cancer Letter Special Issue - March 29, 2013
publication date: Mar 29, 2013
Vol. 39, No. 13 -

MD Anderson Faculty Slam Leadership, Question Moon Shots, Bemoan Workload
In Their Own Words: A 64-page Internal Report with over 1,500 Faculty Comments on MD Anderson Morale

http://www.cancerletter.com/articles/20130329


Not sure if anyone knows if some of the troubles at the top have affected the training programs?



Old news for us. This was a document that had unfortunately leaked, and was essentially a compilation/survey of faculty opinions. Just like at any place in the country, with new ideas and a "change of guard" there are + and - opinions.

With regard to the training programs, no changes whatsoever and actually we've seen several positive benefits for residents/fellows. The influx of new internal grant mechanisms from the DePinho's moon shots and large personalized medicine grants have created new opportunities for trainees that we didn't have before. If motivated and research oriented, you can find numerous funding opportunities that don't really exist anywhere else... As for clinical training, as strong as ever.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
This highlights a recent shift in fortunes for an academic clinician. Gotta carry a heavy pt load.
 
This highlights a recent shift in fortunes for an academic clinician. Gotta carry a heavy pt load.

Without a resultant increase an income? I've heard some grumblings about this before and a reason why people leave academics ("private practice hours for academic pay").
 
No, from what I've gathered most university jobs still pay rather poorly compared to hospital-salaried or private practice positions (provided you've made partner in latter). To be specific, university RadOnc salaries are often calculated off AAMC survey, which shows something like average 317K for assistant professor.
 
317k for an assistant professor is low?
 
I'm not sure if it's low for an assistant professor, but it's not a lot for a radiation oncologist :)
 
What do hospital-salaried / private practice Rad Oncs make?
Here are the actual numbers from 2011-2012 AAMC faculty salary survey for Rad Onc:

Asst. Prof (n=328):
Mean: $347k
Median: $331k
25th: 283k
75th: $389k

Assoc. Prof (n=149):
Mean: $397k
Median: $383k
25th: $345k
75th: $455k

Prof (n=128):
Mean: $435k
Median: $451k
25th: $355k
75th: $517k

Chair (n=69):
Mean: $654k
Median: $635k
25th:$554k
75th: $728k

Bottom line: At the lower end, you would make $300k as asst. prof., $350k as assoc. prof. and $400k as a prof.
 
Thanks for the updated AAMC. In a typical private practice, each treated patient on average generates $ 2,000 in professional charges.
 
So we're back to discussing salaries again, eh? Seems like that is a topic which is never lacking on this forum. :naughty:

My thoughts:

1. Any salary survey which can be obtained for free online is probably worth what you paid for it. There will be a lot of bias in terms of response (only well-compensated faculty respond) and regional bias (a competitive salary in one part of the country will be laughable in an another part). The MGMA compensation survey is the gold standard but it costs $$$.

2. The definition of Assistant, Associate, and "Full" Professor is poorly defined due to heterogeneity among institutions and individuals.

3. A lot of top notch places start of their faculty at the Instructor level which can pay quite poorly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Starting salary for academics and private practice (hospital-employed vs. free-standing) is roughly comparable with the order generally being:

Hospital employed PP > academics = free-standing PP

However, a few years down the road, it switches to:

Free-standing PP > hospital employed PP > academics

As a caveat, this is based on current reimbursement which will likely be different when many users of this board become attendings.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
medgator said:
Without a resultant increase an income? I've heard some grumblings about this before and a reason why people leave academics ("private practice hours for academic pay").

If you are working in academics you should be advancing the field by publishing or performing mentorship/teaching activities. Otherwise, IMO, it is a waste.

However, academic places have to pay the bills the same as everyone else so there is always a push to generate more clinical revenue.
 
I agree with above. One thing. From my personal experience, this AAMC survey - somewhat surprisingly - is indeed trusted and is used by universities in RadOnc recruitment process.
 
MD Anderson Faculty Slam Leadership, Question Moon Shots, Bemoan Workload

I read this article and shrugged. I've been hanging out in academic departments in a few specialties for awhile now, and at the end of the day, you could probably take "MD Anderson" and replace it with "Your Institution's".

The reality is that as research funding gets poorer and clinical reimbursements decline, institutions are squeezed to produce more revenue. There is also an increasing administrative bureaucracy stemming from a number of sources such as regulation. So this manifests itself in a number of ways.


1) The clinical faculty are pressed to see more patients for the same salary.

This may manifest as incentivizing faculty to be more clinically productive by providing bonuses for RVUs. It may also manifest as giving RVU or other minimums to keep your base salary or your job. This can create some wacky scenarios where certain subspecialties within radiation oncology work very hard to generate their RVUs, while others can generate RVUs much more easily. All of these things create resentment.

In the private practice world, this may have be completely true. "Hey, IMRT took a hit this past year, so now we need to see 10% more patients to keep up our salary." They understand and work around these scenarios. The academic physicians tend to be more divorced from these economic realities.


2) The research faculty are pressed to find funding.

In an environment where research funding is tight, start-up resources and packages are scarce. Institutional funding is scarce. Why does the institution want to invest in high paid physician-scientists (or for that matter, research oriented residents...) who often fail/run off to private practice when there is a glut of PhD-only types who are willing to do infinite post-doc work for $50k/year.

In any case, how the limited research money gets distributed is a constant source of conflict. The primary clinical faculty get angry they have to work harder for less salary, while part of a research faculty's salary or experimental funding comes from the institution. The clinicians often view this as a tax to be in academics.

Meanwhile, the researchers often find the institution's allotments arbitrary, because in reality they are. This means if your administration is friendly towards you or your type of work, hooray! If not, get ready to be upset or leave.


3) The administration is expanding and is often non-clinical.

The overhead for running institutions has been exploding over the past decade, in part because hospital based care pays better and the money gets distributed in odd ways, and in part because the regulations for hospital based care has been expanding. A lot of specialty talent outside of medicine is brought in to provide administration, marketing, IT support, billing, etc...

So in the end, you have a lot of MBAs running hospitals these days. They may not understand the situations from our perspective. They may not even run things fairly, instead focusing on the bottom line and seeing physicians as "providers" and patients as "clients" or "customers". As a result, a lot of institutions are implementing higher target revenue goals for clinical faculty, even as the institution remains profitable. This creates instant resentment as well.


In the end, residents are often not made aware of these conflicts. Medical students are completely clueless--professing their love of "academics" while having no idea about the actual real world of medicine.

The reality is that within academics you will find a lot of people who feel that they are working clinically at private practice levels, with minimal support for research, and with much less salary than they could be making in private practice. This seems to me to be the vast majority of modern academic positions. For the salaries from the AAMC survey (post #11 above), this paragraph applies to those positions.

Faculty stay in these positions for a lot of various reasons. Some are tied to a specific location and the academic job is the only availability in that tight market, some really hate the private world due to dislike of practice management (guess who complains when these issues hit the academic world...) or have personalities that don't get them referrals in the private world, while others really do enjoy certain things about academics like a high level of support staff (such as residents) or the ability (with all the caveats above) to run a research lab or clinical trials. In today's world, that last group of people seem very scarce (if you think it might be you, see: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13356317&postcount=4). When you're talking about the small minority of serious research based positions in academics, as gfunk points out, you are looking more at the salaries for "instructor" level, and the salaries below (even well below) the 25th percentiles in the AAMC survey, unless you have finally made it to be at the level of a big name chair.

So, in the end I think it's silly to make most of these issues sound like they are specific MD Anderson. There's trouble in Camelot (Academics).
 
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I read this article and shrugged. I've been hanging out in academic departments in a few specialties for awhile now, and at the end of the day, you could probably take "MD Anderson" and replace it with "Your Institution's".

The reality is that as research funding gets poorer and clinical reimbursements decline, institutions are squeezed to produce more revenue. There is also an increasing administrative bureaucracy stemming from a number of sources such as regulation. So this manifests itself in a number of ways.


1) The clinical faculty are pressed to see more patients for the same salary.

This may manifest as incentivizing faculty to be more clinically productive by providing bonuses for RVUs. It may also manifest as giving RVU or other minimums to keep your base salary or your job. This can create some wacky scenarios where certain subspecialties within radiation oncology work very hard to generate their RVUs, while others can generate RVUs much more easily. All of these things create resentment.

In the private practice world, this may have be completely true. "Hey, IMRT took a hit this past year, so now we need to see 10% more patients to keep up our salary." They understand and work around these scenarios. The academic physicians tend to be more divorced from these economic realities.


2) The research faculty are pressed to find funding.

In an environment where research funding is tight, start-up resources and packages are scarce. Institutional funding is scarce. Why does the institution want to invest in high paid physician-scientists (or for that matter, research oriented residents...) who often fail/run off to private practice when there is a glut of PhD-only types who are willing to do infinite post-doc work for $50k/year.

In any case, how the limited research money gets distributed is a constant source of conflict. The primary clinical faculty get angry they have to work harder for less salary, while part of a research faculty's salary or experimental funding comes from the institution. The clinicians often view this as a tax to be in academics.

Meanwhile, the researchers often find the institution's allotments arbitrary, because in reality they are. This means if your administration is friendly towards you or your type of work, hooray! If not, get ready to be upset or leave.


3) The administration is expanding and is often non-clinical.

The overhead for running institutions has been exploding over the past decade, in part because hospital based care pays better and the money gets distributed in odd ways, and in part because the regulations for hospital based care has been expanding. A lot of specialty talent outside of medicine is brought in to provide administration, marketing, IT support, billing, etc...

So in the end, you have a lot of MBAs running hospitals these days. They may not understand the situations from our perspective. They may not even run things fairly, instead focusing on the bottom line and seeing physicians as "providers" and patients as "clients" or "customers". As a result, a lot of institutions are implementing higher target revenue goals for clinical faculty, even as the institution remains profitable. This creates instant resentment as well.


In the end, residents are often not made aware of these conflicts. Medical students are completely clueless--professing their love of "academics" while having no idea about the actual real world of medicine.

The reality is that within academics you will find a lot of people who feel that they are working clinically at private practice levels, with minimal support for research, and with much less salary than they could be making in private practice. This seems to me to be the vast majority of modern academic positions. For the salaries from the AAMC survey (post #11 above), this paragraph applies to those positions.

Faculty stay in these positions for a lot of various reasons. Some are tied to a specific location and the academic job is the only availability in that tight market, some really hate the private world due to dislike of practice management (guess who complains when these issues hit the academic world...) or have personalities that don't get them referrals in the private world, while others really do enjoy certain things about academics like a high level of support staff (such as residents) or the ability (with all the caveats above) to run a research lab or clinical trials. In today's world, that last group of people seem very scarce (if you think it might be you, see: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13356317&postcount=4). When you're talking about the small minority of serious research based positions in academics, as gfunk points out, you are looking more at the salaries for "instructor" level, and the salaries below (even well below) the 25th percentiles in the AAMC survey, unless you have finally made it to be at the level of a big name chair.

Great post :thumbup:

So, in the end I think it's silly to make most of these issues sound like they are specific MD Anderson. There's trouble in Camelot (Academics)

While it is true that many of MDACC's problems are inherent to big academic centers, it is rare for faculty complaints to be aired in such a public and vociferous way.

Agreed. There are definite issues common to all academic practices right now. That being said, the sheer volume and candid nature of those comments is pretty surprising.
 
I read this article and shrugged. I've been hanging out in academic departments in a few specialties for awhile now, and at the end of the day, you could probably take "MD Anderson" and replace it with "Your Institution's".

So, in the end I think it's silly to make most of these issues sound like they are specific MD Anderson. There's trouble in Camelot (Academics).

All of your points are spot-on and I agree that increased clinical load is occurring at most medical institutions. What is different are the other things cited by faculty - favoritism, firing dissenters, new dept chairs, bad press, etc. They had some of the top level people resign in protest. I think this goes beyond normal griping about a change of leadership and many faculty are considering leaving (their words).
 
Hello all,
could anyone kindly share 2012-2013 AAMC survey salary numbers?
 
There's the right way and then............ there's the MD Anderson WAY!
 
took a trip to physical library :laugh:

Here are the actual numbers from 2012-2013 AAMC faculty salary survey for Rad Onc:

Asst. Prof (n=367):
Mean: $344k
Median: $325k
25th: 290k
75th: $383k

Assoc. Prof (n=174):
Mean: $393k
Median: $398k
25th: $350k
75th: $456k

Prof (n=141):
Mean: $435k
Median: $456k
25th: $370k
75th: $521k

Now, there is some regional variation in the numbers (e.g. Western med. schools report lower pay vs. Midwest). Does anyone have personal experience to support that?
 
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