UCSF vs Stanford vs UW

[custard]

I would love to hear what you think about the residency programs at UCSF, Stanford and UW.

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[NoNoNoNo]

Again there's some In this year's and other review threads (though i agree and more always helps). Also, helps if you have specific questions/things you're looking for/own experiences to add. I think someone posted on both ucsf and uw recently, if that helps. Good luck.

Wow, I said "helps" a lot.

 

[custard]

Yes, those interview threads are soo helpful with such thorough posts! I really appreciate it

 

[LEdaddy]

I would love to hear what you think about the residency programs at UCSF, Stanford and UW.

I think there are some similarities between UW and UCSF: 3 main hospital sites (County, academic center, and VA), large programs with strong research and 16 or more residents, beautiful coastal cities. I felt that the PD at UW was on exceptional thing about that program.

Not sure where Stanford fits in, as I haven't interviewed there.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Been a few years since I interviewed, but..

Purely by reputation,

adult psychiatry:
UCSF > Stanford > UW.

child psychiatry:
Stanford > UW > UCSF.

These probably reflect desirability (aka competitiveness) and academic output more than training, per se. And even the 3rd place program in both categories would still be more or less in the top 10 nationally.

UW was my personal favorite on this list, as faculty were approachable and none of the residents I met seemed to have personality disorders. And Seattle is my favorite west coast city not named Portland. Have one friend there who transferred in as a pgy-2, and she was very happy (much more so than she was at a similarly prestigious program for pgy-1). A few other folks from my med school went there in the years above and below, and I believe they were happy as well.

I almost didn't rank Stanford because the interview day rubbed me so incredibly the wrong way. For example, a few of the residents got into a heated argument during the lunch, and one resident told the other (in front of us, not kidding) that if they didn't fill (they hadn't filled the year before) it would be his fault for bad mouthing the program (in fact, he was just giving honest feedback to questions). It was really off-putting. Those residents would have graduated by now though. I had one friend match there, and I found out later she transferred out, though it's not clear why.

I cancelled my UCSF interview as I figured out by then there was no way I could afford to live in San Francisco with my wife in professional moratorium. One friend there is very happy, and the child fellows I've met from there have been very happy.

 

[custard]

Thanks LEdaddy and billypilgrim37, it's helpful to hear your thoughts.

Anyone else?

 

[NoNoNoNo]

Does anyone know how much driving around has to be done at UW?

And how public transportable and close everything is at UCSF? I mean, I assume you can get around on transport, but do you spend a lot of time getting between sites?

 

[atsai3]

Does anyone know how much driving around has to be done at UW?

And how public transportable and close everything is at UCSF? I mean, I assume you can get around on transport, but do you spend a lot of time getting between sites?

There are city buses that go to both UW and Harborview, so you don't necessarily have to drive depending on where your apartment is located. The amount of driving depends on where you live. If you live in Ballard or Montlake, you will be driving 15 minutes to UW and 20-25 minutes to Harborview in good traffic. If you live in Eastlake, it is more like 10 minutes to either campus. There is a UW-Harborview shuttle you can use for switching campuses (eg., for meetings, grand rounds, didactics, etc).

All of the UCSF sites (SFVAMC, SFGH, UCSF) are accessible by public transport, but the accessibility varies. If you live near SFGH or UCSF, then you can just take the UCSF-SFGH shuttle to get to the other campus, and this could take 20-30 minutes depending on traffic (and the shuttle drivers take the worst route, i.e., directly through the Mission). The shuttle does not go to the VA, but there is a shuttle from UCSF to the VA -- however, it only operates something like hourly, and the first bus that leaves from UCSF for the VA departs at some ridiculous hour like 9:30 (clearly the UCSF-VA shuttle is not meant for residents). A car really is kind of necessary, although some residents bike. Otherwise you will have to take a combination of MUNI train and bus to get to the VA, and depending on where you live that will involve at least one transfer.

 

[custard]

Thanks, atsai3.

How much is parking at UW at the different sites?

 

[atsai3]

Thanks, atsai3.

How much is parking at UW at the different sites?

Very expensive...
http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/Ed.../Pages/Parking-for-Residents-and-Fellows.aspx

 

[billypilgrim37]

I always enjoy atsai3's seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of pretty much the entire West Coast.

 

[Wednesday]

It's hard to finish residency at UW without a car. Once you're a third year, you will usually need to drive to supervision sometime in the middle of the day. Since you usually have to get back to some clinical site later that day, using public transportation alone would be really hard. Maybe on a bike... There is also no shuttle to the VA, although here too a very committed person could bike. Remember, it does rain a lot up here.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from going to UW!

 

[Junglee135]

edited for privacy

 

[custard]

From reading some old threads about UCSF vs Stanford I got the impression that UCSF may have better psychotherapy training than Stanford, which is seen to be a bit more biological. Is that fair to say? Are there other big differences like this (other than training sites)? It seemed as though there was a fair bit of turnover in UCSF's department a few years ago - how has this affected things?

Junglee135, does UCSFs housing stipend help make up for the high cost of living in the city? How do residents deal with this?

 

[atsai3]

From reading some old threads about UCSF vs Stanford I got the impression that UCSF may have better psychotherapy training than Stanford, which is seen to be a bit more biological. Is that fair to say? Are there other big differences like this (other than training sites)? It seemed as though there was a fair bit of turnover in UCSF's department a few years ago - how has this affected things?

Junglee135, does UCSFs housing stipend help make up for the high cost of living in the city? How do residents deal with this?

Regarding psychotherapy training at Stanford, one of the former residents (and current junior faculty) put it this way: "Our attendings basically taught us that psychotherapy is something you do to pass the time in between antidepressant initiation and onset of action." At one point in the recent past, the second-years lobbied for some DBT didactics to supplement their inpatient teaching and were pooh-poohed away. That being said, I know plenty of former Stanford residents who got great psychotherapy training and now do therapy full time in the Bay Area. You have plenty of elective time, so if you want to make psychotherapy your focus then you will have plenty of opportunity to make it so. Bottom line, a program's reputation for being "biological" won't block you from learning psychotherapy if you are appropriately motivated.

Regarding the turnover at UCSF, there has been turnover since the dean, psych chair, and psych program director turned over in 2006-07; UCSF didn't get a real child psych division chief (Yale child fellowship alum) until a few years later, and there is still no real chair after several years of an interim chair; and most recently, the program director who took over in 2006 just stepped down. However, most residents would say that the changes/instability at the dean & chair level have not affected their education; many residents would say that the 2006-2011 program director was great and are confident that the impending change will not affect their education; and most of the residents would say that if there are any downsides to being at UCSF, other than the fact that they take more call than San Mateo, the disadvantages have more to do with generalized economic conditions (e.g., at the state and county level) and not the program leadership.

 

[custard]

Thanks atsai3, that's very helpful to hear!

 

[splik]

I was told that Stanford was one of those programs where the quality of the residency education did not match the standing of the department as a whole. Now there is no doubt that Stanford has an international reputation for academic psychiatry. However apparently the training is not as great as it should be (though I am sure it is good). Considering that Stanford has some top names in psychotherapy - David Burns (CBT), David Spiegel (hypnotherapy), Irvin Yalom (existential psychotherapy) it is surprising to hear the therapy training is supposedly not as good as elsewhere. I asked one of them about whether he thought the psychotherapy training was not as good as elsewhere in Cali and he staunchly denied it and said it was a rumor generated by SoCal rivalry. Stanford may be 'biological', but it is not more so than UCLA (which is proudly biological - 'you won't have any of that beardy tweedy East Coast psychoanalytic nonsense here), and UCLA has excellent psychotherapy training for residents in psychodynamic therapy as well as CBT and family therapy. Also Stanford is in the Bay Area where there are plenty of people who are willing to pay for psychotherapy from a psychiatrist, and that seems to correlate with the likelihood of getting good therapy training (think Boston, New York) whilst conversely places where you don't have rich white people ready to hemorrhage vast sums whilst pouring out their thoughts on your couch you have more biological programs (think Baltimore, St Loius, Pittsburgh)

 

[atsai3]

Junglee135, does UCSFs housing stipend help make up for the high cost of living in the city? How do residents deal with this?

The housing stipend helps, but SF is expensive.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-08-11/news/29875038_1_vacancy-rates-realfacts-apartment-rent
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/27/san-franciscos-rent-riot/
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/201...rkers-san-francisco-becomes-landlord-s-market

Inner Sunset (the neighborhood next to the UCSF Parnassus campus) is relatively cheap compared to the rest of the city (because, over the course of the year, it gets about as many sunny days as Cleveland) but it is still expensive.

 

[tlbmeh]

From reading some old threads about UCSF vs Stanford I got the impression that UCSF may have better psychotherapy training than Stanford, which is seen to be a bit more biological. Is that fair to say? Are there other big differences like this (other than training sites)? It seemed as though there was a fair bit of turnover in UCSF's department a few years ago - how has this affected things?

Junglee135, does UCSFs housing stipend help make up for the high cost of living in the city? How do residents deal with this?

I'm currently a Stanford psych resident and can address some of the questions raised above. During the match process I interviewed at UCSF and UW as well and thought all three were great programs. It seems each program has remarkable strengths and there were fantastic opportunities unique to each of them. I think what others have said here ended up being true for me as well, in the end you just have to decide which program feels like the best fit for you personally.

The year I matched both the chair and program director positions were about to change (both ended up changing shortly after I started residency) so I didn't really know how that would influence the training. In the end, I ranked it first anyway and am very happy that I did. The new chair and program director have instituted a lot of changes that have been of great benefit to the residents. We have more time at the county psych ER, more elective time, more opportunities to pursue our interests (research, clinical, international work, therapy training). Also the current administration seems genuinely interested in helping each resident pursue unique interests and passions.

In regard to the therapy training, so far I have been very happy. As it is currently set up we have multiple supervisors and it is great to get different perspectives from different people. My main supervisor has done tons of one on one teaching with me and has tailored things to suit my developing interests. They have also picked up the phone and arranged for me to meet with leaders in the field when a particular approach would be helpful for my therapy patients.

David Burns runs a elective CBT training group that you can join after PGYI where you learn techniques directly from him. Several faculty have DBT groups we can join. There are many opportunities for group and family therapy work as well if you let your interests be known. Starting in PGYII you can choose the psychotherapy track where you have 3 months of full time outpatient therapy focused training or you can choose 2 months of scholarly elective time. The therapy track extends into the PGYIII and PGYIV year if that is your interest. There are also many therapy opportunities through the VA including the PTSD residential program, substance residential rehab, and women's trauma recovery. Several residents are also pursuing psychoanalytic training through the SF psychoanalytic society.

Of course I can't possibly say how this compares to therapy training at other programs but I can at least tell you there is indeed a very happy current resident at Stanford.

 

[custard]

Thanks so much for your post, tlbmeh. Super helpful!

 

[NoNoNoNo]

Re: UCSF, a couple of questions...

-How much running around is there? E.g. are the supervisors at the site you're at or do you have to switch midday, for didactics, etc.?
-How easy are the shuttles to use? And do you really need a car for the VA? (The site says that the shuttle stops at something like 6 or 7 so why do people say it stops too early? For outpt psych? Or am I misunderstanding?)
-When the program gets painted as intense/work heavy, what is that in comparison to and in what sense? (Call schedule? Late days? Full days? Is there sufficient support staff?)
-How hard is it to find housing? There seems very little available in Inner Sunset right now, but maybe more opens up around July 1st? Is it possible to get housing within walking distance of LP for < 1700ish?
-Has anyone moved from East to (never having lived on) West coast and want to speak of being happy with that decision and appreciating the differing mentality (and is that apparent within the hospitals too)?
-How are the didactics?

Any help with any of that would be great! My own review is in the interview review thread on p. 3.

 

[RedPakotaSea]

I'm a UCSF resident (PGY1) and happy to take questions.

-How much running around is there? E.g. are the supervisors at the site you're at or do you have to switch midday, for didactics, etc.?

There's very little running around&#8230;the only day during intern year that we might have to switch sites midday would be Wednesday for afternoon didactics.

-How easy are the shuttles to use? And do you really need a car for the VA? (The site says that the shuttle stops at something like 6 or 7 so why do people say it stops too early? For outpt psych? Or am I misunderstanding?)

The shuttle is very convenient if you live near Parnassus and need to get to SFGH or vice versa. The problem with the VA shuttle is that it runs hourly. I started out taking the VA shuttle for my Urgent Care rotation, but after getting out at 5:05 one evening and having to wait till 6:00 to catch the next one, I stopped. I drive now (parking is free at the VA), but it's also possible to take public transportation.

-When the program gets painted as intense/work heavy, what is that in comparison to and in what sense? (Call schedule? Late days? Full days? Is there sufficient support staff?)

I'm not sure what that's in comparison to. Intern year feels very doable to me&#8230;there are a few lighter rotations and hours on inpt psych aren't bad (8AM to 5 or 6PM). Call schedule is pretty standard. Compared with friends in medicine, peds, or ob/gyn, I've got it pretty easy.

-How hard is it to find housing? There seems very little available in Inner Sunset right now, but maybe more opens up around July 1st? Is it possible to get housing within walking distance of LP for < 1700ish?

Finding a good deal on housing is not easy, but it's also not impossible. I came out for a week in May, became very familiar with padmapper.com (awesome site), and ended up with a few good options. I'd guess that roughly half of the residents live in Inner Sunset, but it's possible to live just about anywhere in the city. There are definitely places for less than $1700 within walking distance of Parnassus.

-Has anyone moved from East to (never having lived on) West coast and want to speak of being happy with that decision and appreciating the differing mentality (and is that apparent within the hospitals too)?

I did, and I love it out here. In some ways, I do feel like the culture of medicine is more relaxed out here, but that's in comparison to stereotypes of NE programs, not to any real perceived difference (I went to medical school in the SE so I really can't say).

-How are the didactics?

Didactics are generally very good&#8230;we just started our neuroscience and psychotherapy curriculums, which are excellent. I've also been impressed with how responsive faculty have been to resident feedback&#8230;if we don't think something is useful, it's gone.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have more questions.