Unfair admissions

[BBGUN]

I recently found out that Buffalo accepted a foriegn student who was not a permanent resident or US citzen.No one really knows about this because after applying we dont care ,unless we get in.This is where ,I say some connections work.I am sure they violated a rule here ,but then no one knows abou it.All residents and citizens on this forum ,if you are trying to get it ,make sure you dont get ripped off by such schools .Factually ,their website says the seat is open for only residents and citizens.I wish there was somebody to protest or sue for injustices like this.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Meggs]

What if that foreign dentist had been working there for a year doing research, is that unfair too?

Some Buffalo students mentioned previously on this forum that some of their IDP students were former research participants in the school.

 

[BBGUN]

What if that foreign dentist had been working there for a year doing research, is that unfair too?

Some Buffalo students mentioned previously on this forum that some of their IDP students were former research participants in the school.

Yes ,you are right ,this person was in a program there too,as I am aware,but that does elevate your application not immgration standards.I do not know how many times have they bend this rule or broken it ,but I know they prefer to take people from their research etc.That is acceptable,but gross violations of rules ,especially when it is a state university,that is not what you look for.So,technically,even being a US resident there is no point applying there.That way I think pvt schools are more fair,but then I hope somebody stands upto this.Wonder,how many got robbed of their application fee by buffalo.

 

[gryffindor]

I just graduated from Buffalo (the 4 year DDS program, not the IDP one). I don't know about the citizen/resident requirement for the IDP, but we have a number of non-citizen/non-resident students in the regular 4 year program; students from Germany, Canada, and Kuwait who only had visas to study and that's it. So maybe the school doesn't really care, but they have the resident/citizen "rule" in place to discourage the number of applicants to the program since there are only like 2 - 3 spots. The IDP program isn't technically an IDP program like the other schools discussed on this board. Those students are considered to be advanced standing transfer students into the second year class. They are counted in our class rank and are eligible for school scholarships and awards based on the grades they earn in the second, third and fourth years here. It can't hurt to be in a specialty/advanced training program at Buffalo, I can think of at least 4 students who did a specialty first at Buffalo and then entered the advanced standing program to earn the DDS to practice here. I'm sure there are more.

 

[BBGUN]

So that means there is no point in even trusting their administration.This is the first time I have heard a state school taking foriegn students for regular program.Canadians are considered as most of the time the requirements are same.I assume all the others had atleast the basic requirements.Well,IDP is a generic term used by foriegn grads.Most of the time they end up in the same class.The website clearly sports that the international grads need to be US residents/citizens.Just ,to make sure I even spoke to the admissions office and somebody confirmed this over the fone.I would prefer not to take names.So,there is a gross misconduct here.Thanks for the info Griffin.I know people who were rejected saying that they were not US residents/citizens.They just got fooled for the $50 that the school wanted to make out of them.No offence,may be these are the kind of reasons the school is not even ranked high among state schools.It is really unfortunate ,that a state school does this to Americans.Even the regualr program ,if it has to take foriegn citizens ,it only speaks of the fact there are less people applying to it or they dont find any body to fit in.Either everyone knows that this is happening and I am the last person to know this or that no one really cares.Either way ,I am sorry for all the American students who go through 4 yrs of college,DAT etc and then find out some person from East Europe ,or middle east ,or Asia got his/her spot because ,the school makes extra money from out of state students.Now ,I understand why all the other state schools wouldn't even touch foriegn applicants or for that matter even out of state students.And ,that puts them high up in the list of schools.

 

[gsmm]

(I am sorry for all the American students who go through 4 yrs of college,DAT etc and then find out some person from East Europe ,or middle east ,or Asia got his/her spot because ,the school makes extra money)


I dont really get what kind of disqualification will the american students face if the foreign graduates attended the class with them..in fact they should be proud because these were already graduates and they are only undergraduate students and both are at the same level of education!!
another point is right they took the DAT and many steps before they where admitted but also foreign graduates went through 2 years of predental and 4 years of dental plus the researches you where talking about...so its more than fair..
however regarding the resident/citizen issue, its a personal preference of one over the other..laws sometimes diminish infront of intelligient people and i always noticed that since i came to USA..so cheer up BBGUN!

 

[BBGUN]

(I am sorry for all the American students who go through 4 yrs of college,DAT etc and then find out some person from East Europe ,or middle east ,or Asia got his/her spot because ,the school makes extra money)


I dont really get what kind of disqualification will the american students face if the foreign graduates attended the class with them..in fact they should be proud because these were already graduates and they are only undergraduate students and both are at the same level of education!!
another point is right they took the DAT and many steps before they where admitted but also foreign graduates went through 2 years of predental and 4 years of dental plus the researches you where talking about...so its more than fair..
however regarding the resident/citizen issue, its a personal preference of one over the other..laws sometimes diminish infront of intelligient people and i always noticed that since i came to USA..so cheer up BBGUN!

I do not know wther many students over here know that there is no predental in any other part of the word,also the basic requirements are also different .In many countries or shoould I say most countries ,students go into dental school after high school.It is not like America,where they do m andatory college and DCAT.But,then that is not the point.Like you said,law diminishes in front of intelligence and money.That is why millions of souls come to this country to make a living.I am specifically talking about foriegn grads who are US citizens.Where are they supposed to go for decent eeducation at a reasonable price when a state school rejects their application and takes a foriegn student.Well,you had the oppurtunity to get here and get in to dental school,but at the same time there are already international graduates here who are US residents/citizens waiting looking for a way into some program.State schools are a boon to such people.But,when they start bending down ,ofcourse it will hurt.I personally know such people ,who applied to state schools and competed with each other and made it to advance placement.There are few who could not make it tor ,there is definitely a lot more than we all know who couldn't make it.These are sudents who struggled their way through in a dental school ,came to America and became US citizens,residents.So,where did they go wrong.Atleast,private schools tell you upfront that they will take any body and no preference to US residents /citizens.Not to generalise,all state schools don't do it either.Infact,this is the first time I have heard where a state school ,overlooked US candidates for a foriegn grad.Law definitely diminished here.I am glad it is for an intelligent person(I suppose),but at the cost fo few others or atleast one.Sometimes,this country gets overtly generous.

 

[Ann 03]

Everywhr citizens and residents are given importance and its the same in the us. even in private schools perm residents and citizens r given preference ,though u will not find it written anywhr. this person who was givenadmission in the university of buffalo must have been real good for thm to take him/her into the school for the idp . thts one thing abt the us schools, they give importance to merit. not tht influence doesnt work ,it does but not always and certainly not for undeserving people.

"Well,you had the oppurtunity to get here and get in to dental school,but at the same time there are already international graduates here who are US residents/citizens waiting looking for a way into some program."
well , maybe it would be easier for us citizens to go dental schools in the us, and if they choose to go to dental school in some other country, thn they will have to compete for programs as international graduates. of course they do have priviliges, but essentially the same rule appliesto all.
as far getting into dental school directly frm high school goes, its my opinion tht if the standard of high school education is really good and gives u a strong foundation in the science subjects(we have very good high school education in india, i dont know abt other countries) thn its not really necessary to have predental, of course thts my opinion. also many countries have a 5 yr dental program as opposed to the 4 yr program.

if u r an international dentist(us citizen/ resident or otherwise) , dont think abt all these things, do well in the exams, apply to schools and leave the rest to god. these things will only make u more depressed.
all the best

 

[BBGUN]

Everywhr citizens and residents are given importance and its the same in the us. even in private schools perm residents and citizens r given preference ,though u will not find it written anywhr. this person who was givenadmission in the university of buffalo must have been real good for thm to take him/her into the school for the idp . thts one thing abt the us schools, they give importance to merit. not tht influence doesnt work ,it does but not always and certainly not for undeserving people.

"Well,you had the oppurtunity to get here and get in to dental school,but at the same time there are already international graduates here who are US residents/citizens waiting looking for a way into some program."
well , maybe it would be easier for us citizens to go dental schools in the us, and if they choose to go to dental school in some other country, thn they will have to compete for programs as international graduates. of course they do have priviliges, but essentially the same rule appliesto all.
as far getting into dental school directly frm high school goes, its my opinion tht if the standard of high school education is really good and gives u a strong foundation in the science subjects(we have very good high school education in india, i dont know abt other countries) thn its not really necessary to have predental, of course thts my opinion. also many countries have a 5 yr dental program as opposed to the 4 yr program.

if u r an international dentist(us citizen/ resident or otherwise) , dont think abt all these things, do well in the exams, apply to schools and leave the rest to god. these things will only make u more depressed.
all the best

I don,t know how long yo have been here or in India.The whole idea of these IDP is money driven.But that aside,US students do take a lot of extra courses before getiing in schools ,sometimes schools accept them on condition that they go back n do extra course.And,there is no way anybody learns bicochemistry and anatomy in high school.That applies to direct out of the college applicants only.My point here is again missed by readers.There are thousands(that could be an understatement)that are US residents/citizens here ,maybe not born here but ,immigrated waiting to get in to advance placements.These people have spend ample amount of money and time already on dentistry .If there is anything beneficial to them ,is the fact that they are residents/citizens.So,like any other state school,let them compete among themselves and win.But ,here I see that this particular school had collected fees(appln) from every single resident/citizen appln and then even before that decided on taking a foriegner.Atleast ,other state schools,like illinois,connecticut,texas,NC ..just to name a few do not even accept applns and if you still want to apply they tell you ,upfront you will be last in the list.That is fair enough.They protect their residents first.I would rather see a state school stick by the rules framed and not say something and do something else.You must be under misconception that private schools prioritize this way.They do not do such things as it generates money for them .That is pretty much universal.
Technically it is 4 yr plus 1 yr internship in other countries.So ,I dont think that compensates for anything.In certain East european countries medicine is 7 yrs ,but it only teaches as much or less than 4 yr program here.So,that is a moot point.

 

[gsmm]

i experienced these exact feelings when last year they selected some students for the bench exam in california and one of my friends who was just visiting usa got into the exam and i didnt(i am a resident!!)..i was very angry because he is going back while i am staying here suffering to find any job to earn living and waiting for any chance to get a license!!

 

[BBGUN]

i experienced these exact feelings when last year they selected some students for the bench exam in california and one of my friends who was just visiting usa got into the exam and i didnt(i am a resident!!)..i was very angry because he is going back while i am staying here suffering to find any job to earn living and waiting for any chance to get a license!!

I understand you and this is the injustice I am pointing out to.Some people over in this forum think ,I have personal things to settle here.Believe me ,you are denied of an oppurtunity here because of someone whom you possibly dont even know and worse ,that individual doesn't even benefit.Thank you for opening up ,and above all thanx for the only one to second my argument.

 

[Athene]

i experienced these exact feelings when last year they selected some students for the bench exam in california and one of my friends who was just visiting usa got into the exam and i didnt(i am a resident!!)..i was very angry because he is going back while i am staying here suffering to find any job to earn living and waiting for any chance to get a license!!

ask us at MAHE....we have NRI SEATS for BDS......so those who are selceted through entrance might not get the seat coz.....few seats are always there for canadians or US citizens......
i am not a green card holder or PR in US.........but there are no. of US citizens who join various NRI seats in INDIA.....THEN TAKE UP NDB and join DDS...........anyways indian students lose the seats......

few days back i was talking to a batchmate of mine who is taking up exam in july.......(he is so cool abt the prepration and admissions)...he outrightly told me ...."i am not worried"
reason......"i am US citizen so even at less score i have every chance of getting in a school"
1.he is on NRI quota(one INDIAN student lost a seat )
2.he is US CITIZEN(will get in to IDP )
WHERE IS THE JUSTICE?????

I can tell how much depression it brings when u see those green card holders acting so cool and relaxed................when i have to struggle for tourist visa also..........
can we hold things against people.........do your deed and leave the rest to GOD.......

alll the best to all..........

 

[BBGUN]

Well ,you cant blame a person for being cool.As far as pvt colleges in India are concerned or everywhere ,the main motive is to make money.Indian govt did put a cap on the number of foriegners coming in.I am glad atleast the govt schools dont take anybody,but I do remember a friend of mine who went to a govt medical school ,despite being a US citizen.Apparently,his uncle happened to be a Senator from that state in India.So,they do break rules.But ,here in America technically it is hard to go around such rules,but still influence works.In a way institutions like MAHE can survive only if they take money.So,it is good that they take foriegn students beacause one foriegn student literally pays more than 3 Indian students.Infact,there are few schools in India that keep a QA level after taking money.MAHE is probably the best among them.As far as these students not doing good in boards ,I think is foolish.If you are a foriegn grad irrespective of residentship/citizenship ,you have to have good board scores.But,more avenues open for them as state schools would consider them too.That is my point here.It should not be depressing for any foriegner to come to this country and seeing citizens getting benefits.The amt of taxes they pay to get the benefit is huge too.So,this school in Buffalo took taxes from citizens and NY state taxes are probabaly the highest in the country and puts forigner in there.That is not fair at all.I think atleast in India that doesnt happen ,except for the one instance I mentioned .But I am sure it is easier to break a rule in India and I guess ,it must have happened somewhere ,sometime.

 

[pinkpeanuts]

Here's my opinion.i honestly don't think ppl who are Citizens/PR's have any advantage over foreign applicant's other than the fact that its easier for them to get into the US in order to write the exam!and i also think that anyone who's under that misconception should wake up and smell the coffee.
Its the board scores,gpa,etc etc that really counts.And the FAFSA does'nt come into this coz' no admission=no FAFSA issue.
Also,i don't think the majority of ppl in the IDP's across the US are C/PR'S!And that 'International' encompasses foreign trained graduates as well.
Inspite of being a PR,i am waiting just like everyone else to get into school.Maybe there are sporadic cases where ppl with C/PR'S have been given preference over foreign graduates..But there have been cases where FG's have been preffered(Like the Buffalo incident).So,I think its unfair to believe that we 'have it easy'.We are stuggling just like others.

 

[Awara No. 1]

hey all, I am US citizen and undergrad here and applying to dental school for traditional program but Here is my opinion on this issue.
I don't think it is fair for State School to take any foreign Student because think about the taxes in US. Your parent's paid taxes in your state, you are paying, your kids will pay but Some student who may be just coming to US for education in STATE SCHOOL may go back to their home country and happens many times(mostly students from developed countries) and not even provide service to people in US. The state schol give preference to their residents becasue they are most likely to stay there after graduation and will pay taxes and provide service to their state. Many states have problem attracting dentists (nevada was one and now they have their own school) becasue most people don't want to go to different state for practicing. I strongly believe that tax money should only be used for the citizens/residents of country/state.

For private school I don't think anything should matter at all but It matters a little becasue they get so much grant money from federal and state government for research so they can't really take as many foreigners as they want. I mean come on is like a business for them and they are out to make a profit. I don't really care much about harvard taking all of their class from foreign trained students but I really do care about SUNY buffalo taking one foreign student because it is not fair to the people who pay federal and state taxes and will pay after they graduate and practice there(more likely in same state).

As far as Migrants in US is like fair game. More than 95% of US popualtion is made up of some kind of migrant. It doean't really matter if one migrated here 150 years ago and someone migrated 15 years ago by the law one is US Citizen(only matters if one wants to be president and I think it is fair in that issue). And as long as we live Under opean Immigration Law it is something that will be around for a while and will create some kind of argument all the time.

Let's talk about fair game in meicine. My uncle went to Medical School in India and took all the requirement tests/exams and got in to Cardiology residency. He didn't pay a dime of tax in US nor did his parents. He was simply a foreign applicant with no tie to US. Is it fair to those American Citizens(and their kids) who paid taxes here but didn't get to that residency? I don't think so. I think they should only take foreign students if they don't have quaified citizen or they are in need of doctors becasue their own supply is not enough. It is like supply and demand here simply. Why huge cut in H1 visa's lately? But thing happen and laws are twisted and meant to be broken but it doesn't mean it is fair to others????
Just my though!!!!!!

 

[Ann 03]

hey wht abt resident aliens(funny term) , i mean the ones who r here on work visas , they pay taxes as much as any resident or citizen. they cant even apply to their own state schools even though they pay "taxes".
well, wht can i say, the grass is greener on the other side . perm residents / citizens do have preference over others, but equal importance is given to merit also
As far as the us goes, this a land of immigrants, whr everybody has equal oppurtunity, thts the great thing abt this country.if theUS is oversaturated with american dentists and physicians, thn the schools here wont even have international programs
i dont know abt medicine but in dentistry whn we get into school we do pay a lot to get a degree here. so i guess non residents and people on students visa pay their share of money to get a degree and work here.

.

 

[BBGUN]

I agree with you on all the counts but one.I dont think state schools should not take out of state or foriegn grads.They should but not at the expense of the tax paying resident.All the states have laws to protect such things.But,schools may violate this without the higher authorities knowing it.Usually ,it is not a common practise to break such rules.I was particularly mad at this incident as scores of citzens had applied for the spot and expected to make it ,since they meet all the conditions.As far as medicine is concerned GME &ECFMG makes it apoint that such things don't happen.They are entirely strict about this.Foriegn grads getting in medical residencies absolutely do not displace American as they get only the specialties that US grads dont want.So,I think that is fair.In some cases they do get it and that is if they are US ctizens.
About recent immigrants paying taxes on work visas ,they choose to come here and pay and they do get benefit out of it too.Their kids go to school for free,they get to walk on streets with lights etc etc and above all enjoy 911,which eats up billions of tax money.So,they are not at the end of raw deal,but if such things keep on happening their kids might get a raw deal in future.I dont even think they should have IDP,just the boards and a clinical competency exam is enough.I have come across many skilled foriegn grads who can make it that way ,but stuck because of IDP.There is a gross misgovernance here that is happening.Maybe it is too late to correct it.

 

[31864]

I agree with you on all the counts but one.I dont think state schools should not take out of state or foriegn grads.They should but not at the expense of the tax paying resident.All the states have laws to protect such things.But,schools may violate this without the higher authorities knowing it.Usually ,it is not a common practise to break such rules.I was particularly mad at this incident as scores of citzens had applied for the spot and expected to make it ,since they meet all the conditions.As far as medicine is concerned GME &ECFMG makes it apoint that such things don't happen.They are entirely strict about this.Foriegn grads getting in medical residencies absolutely do not displace American as they get only the specialties that US grads dont want.So,I think that is fair.In some cases they do get it and that is if they are US ctizens.
About recent immigrants paying taxes on work visas ,they choose to come here and pay and they do get benefit out of it too.Their kids go to school for free,they get to walk on streets with lights etc etc and above all enjoy 911,which eats up billions of tax money.So,they are not at the end of raw deal,but if such things keep on happening their kids might get a raw deal in future.I dont even think they should have IDP,just the boards and a clinical competency exam is enough.I have come across many skilled foriegn grads who can make it that way ,but stuck because of IDP.There is a gross misgovernance here that is happening.Maybe it is too late to correct it.

You have an answer for everything, don't you ? You should stand for the election, you have my vote.

 

[gryffindor]

Wow, I didn't mean to spark a whole debate here.

The international students in my class (the regular 4 year DDS program) all attended undergraduate schools here in the USA (or Canada if they are Canadians) and took the DAT. So they applied and got accepted the same way as all the New York state residents and out-of-state students that got into Buffalo. They also pay international tuition for all 4 years so they don't get a price break even if it is a state school.

As far as these international students taking away spots from tax-paying citizens and permanent residents, I really don't think its that huge a deal. There are 2 state schools in New York - Buffalo and Stonybrook. The number of New York state residents that get in depends on how qualified the student is. Stonybrook's class is smaller (like 40 students) and is made up almost entirely of NY state students, because they accept less students and so more New Yorkers say yes to them when they get in. You have to have supreme stats to get in as an out-of-state student or international student. Buffalo, on the other hand, has almost double the number of spots (85 per class) so even though they accept mostly New York students, they have room to interview and accept a number of competitive out-of-staters (mostly Californians), Canadians, and international students. Neither school will accept a New York state resident with a 2.6 GPA and 17 on the DAT over an international student with a 4.0 GPA and 26 on the DAT. The New Yorker will not get in b/c those are not competitive stats; he or she needs to work on raising stats like that if they want a chance to attend Stonybrook or Buffalo. The international student may get it, depending on the spots available b/c there is a preference for New Yorkers if they are qualified.

I personally liked that there were a few out-of-state students and international students and Canadians in my class. It added more diversity to my class because these students really did bring different ideas and views from other parts of the country and world to our social lives.

BBGUN - there are no rankings published anymore by ANY source out there for dental schools. You would be lucky to get an education at Buffalo, I am proud to be a dental graduate from this school. As unfair as it is that applicants to the IDP program pay $50 and may not be interviewed, this is not a scenario limited to international dentists. I applied to more than 25 orthodontic programs last year and, got 4 interviews and ultimately I didn't get a spot, even though I was just as qualified as my classmates who applied with me and got more interviews from the same schools I applied to. Many of the programs just took my application fee and didn't even send a rejection letter. Spending all that money and not getting in sucked, but it happens and there is no way to know if you'll get an interview or not unless you spend that $50 and take a chance. It's all part of the process, an expensive and random process that sometimes doesn't make much sense, but that's how it works. Take it or leave it.

 

[BBGUN]

Sorry ,Griffin no offence.Yes you are right,but there is one on US news few yrs back ,a hard copy of which I do have.But either way ,I do know it is a good school.I too was not going personal on anything,just trying to brin g to everybody's notice things that happen.Like I said if they can't fill up then there is no way but to take foriegn students.I just was tryin to work this point from an angle that was not that too hard to think.But ,unfortunately it was just a regular post like I said,enjoying the freedom of speech and not turning a blind eye to things.It just happened that ,people got offended.To be honest I think it is better than NYU or Upenn.But ,that is just my view,so no offence again.Especially the research side of Buffalo is reputed one.As long as somebody meets the criteria they can pick any one as student.My point was,I personally know Americans(with 4.0 gpaand 90+nbde) who applied there expecting that it might be the only competition was among themselves.But ,when they picked up a intl student and kept the matter hushed ,people got hurt.I know for sure they wouldn't pick a dumb guy ,but people who got rejected were paying taxes in this state since they were born.At the end of it all, we all know that money talks.And ,I am sure they(uni) are smart to know their way out too in this matter.This country is built on sheer intelligence.When we dont have it ,we buy it.Simple as that.
But griffin,definitely you are lucky to go to that school.
To add,comparing grad level education to IDP is like comaparing apples and oranges and that too ,Orthodontics.That is why I think that medical graduate education is fair to everybody.Applicants know where to apply and where not to.Also,thier match is cheaper unlike dental schools,which need a separate fee above match and rip students off.I am a strong believer of this system and it is definitely the most fair system in the whole world.But like any culture and country ,there are negatives too.I am an American too,maybe not fresh of the boat .So,I do have right to stand up and talk ,as I was taught in school here.And above all my family falls in a 60% tax level ,and it hurts to see that we get taken for a ride by the same govt that could be knocking on your door ,if you are late to pay taxes.