Unmatched Neuro Spots 2008 (ADV+Cat)

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sunmatch

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NEURO CATEGORICAL PROG -------QUOTA --- FILLED----UNFILLED
U Michigan Hosps-Ann Arbor 3 2 1

Barnes-Jewish Hosp-MO 8 6 2

Ohio State Univ Med Ctr-OH 4 2 2

Temple Univ Hosp-PA 4 1 3

Methodist Hospital-Houston-TX 2 1 1

U Texas SW Med Sch-Dallas 6 3 3


NEURO ADV PROG -------QUOTA --- FILLED----UNFILLED

U Florida COM-Jacksonville 4 2 2

U Florida COM-Shands Hosp 4 2 2

U Louisville SOM-KY 2 0 2

Tulane Univ SOM-LA 2 0 2

Boston Univ Med Ctr-MA 5 4 1

New England Med Ctr-MA 6 4 2

Sparrow Hospital-MI 2 0 2

U Michigan Hosps-Ann Arbor 1 0 1

UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Camden 2 0 2

Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY 9 7 2

Mt Sinai Hospital-NY 6 3 3

Duke Univ Med Ctr-NC 4 1 3

Cleveland Clinic Fdn-OH 7 6 1

U Texas Med Branch-Galveston(Austin) 3 1 2
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LOL F michigan.
no interview despite time spent their and lor from a faculty member.
weeded me out based on step 1 alone.
 
very interesting info! Based on that, I didn't go below my #2 program. :thumbup:
 
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I spent 2 months at Temple, they promised to rank me and I was unmatched today...and guess what.....they have 3 unfilled positions out of 4!!! and apparently they had 800 applications! Do these ppl know how to rank or had issues in the process??? So sad. Well they 5 attendings only and 13 residents :D
 
Totally crazy! Duke... BJH...Southwestern? I thought many had ranked Southwestern so very high!!??
 
The list matches exactly the numbers reported to those who matched.
27 adv unfilled and 12 catgorical unfilled. Im pretty sure the list is authentic.

the poster who looked at temple, were you able to scramble?
My years of neuro research, LOR from experts across teh country and 4 neurofield electives wasnt good enough for them because of my step hiccup and they rejected me before U Penn lol...

all the best.
 
Doctor&Geek said:
Is this some guy's sick idea of a joke?
Click to expand...

Well I know from Temple that the post is accurate.

I am still waiting for the programs to confirm interview.

Mistral, were you able to match anywhere?

:luck:
 
Yes I matched. obviously dont know where yet.
Good luck with the scramble. are you even talking to Temple?
How has the process been?
 
Congratulations!
Well unfortunately I have to keep my options open, although I was rather offended by their arrogance........hopefully I will match elsewhere.
Good luck with your residency and congratulations again!
 
Hello All,
Trust me. The list is very authentic. I accessed myself through one of my friends account who was "unmatched". I was curious to see and find out where the neurology spots were unfilled. You can definitely compare this on 24th March once the list is out for all to see. I "matched". I was very furious to see that most of the programs up here rejected me instantly when i applied in September acting like "why did u apply here??". One program up here kept saying there are no IV dates and ended up 3 unmatched positions out of the total 4 positions they had. Anyway some lucky folks must have grabbed these positions today or are on the way grabbing them.
 
I have to say I'm shocked that UTSW didn't fill all their spots. I'm sure we'll get some good folks in the scramble, but this is a little disappointing. I guess the news of Dr. Cannon's impending step-down from chairman had a pretty big impact.
 
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I guess Duke thinks way too highly of its program and that's the reason it ended up unmatched. What a big lesson they have been taught!
 
bjolly said:
very interesting info! Based on that, I didn't go below my #2 program. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Best of luck to you. I hope that is true.

I know from experience, however, that this is a possibly faulty assumption. Good programs don't fill because they didn't rank enough applicants. Which means when a program goes unfilled - the chances of an applicant having been unranked also goes up - possibly negating the assumption. (Unless you are 100% sure they ranked you...)
 
In the case of Sinai I'm pretty sure their half-filling is because of unduly inflated self-image - certain personalities in that program turns lots of interviewees off. They think they're on Cornell etc. level and they definitely are not.
 
Hi, i am interested in Neurology what is the difference between categorical and Advance positions?
Thank You
 
Javad said:
Hi, i am interested in Neurology what is the difference between categorical and Advance positions?
Thank You
Click to expand...

I think that advanced is for people who have completed an internship?
 
sunmatch said:
NEURO CATEGORICAL PROG -------QUOTA --- FILLED----UNFILLED
U Michigan Hosps-Ann Arbor 3 2 1

Barnes-Jewish Hosp-MO 8 6 2

Ohio State Univ Med Ctr-OH 4 2 2

Temple Univ Hosp-PA 4 1 3

Methodist Hospital-Houston-TX 2 1 1

U Texas SW Med Sch-Dallas 6 3 3


NEURO ADV PROG -------QUOTA --- FILLED----UNFILLED

U Florida COM-Jacksonville 4 2 2

U Florida COM-Shands Hosp 4 2 2

U Louisville SOM-KY 2 0 2

Tulane Univ SOM-LA 2 0 2

Boston Univ Med Ctr-MA 5 4 1

New England Med Ctr-MA 6 4 2

Sparrow Hospital-MI 2 0 2

U Michigan Hosps-Ann Arbor 1 0 1

UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Camden 2 0 2

Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY 9 7 2

Mt Sinai Hospital-NY 6 3 3

Duke Univ Med Ctr-NC 4 1 3

Cleveland Clinic Fdn-OH 7 6 1

U Texas Med Branch-Galveston(Austin) 3 1 2
Click to expand...

I guess that these programs that went unfilled basically didn't have a long enough rank list I would guess, i.e. many interviewees didn't not rank the program high enough to ensure that the program would fill on match day, . . . I wonder if this is reflective of the quality of the program itself? i.e. these are the programs that are basically at the bottom of the poll of neurology programs in the eyes of this year's applicants?
 
It is very bad for a program to have unmatched positions at the end, because the perception is exactly that one: No one wants to go there because the program sucks. However, obviously Michigan and Duke are not bad programs, which suggests they just got too cocky. Their egos have definitely been very bruised.
 
Javad said:
Hi, i am interested in Neurology what is the difference between categorical and Advance positions?
Thank You
Click to expand...

Categorical programs include an intern year, while advanced positions expect you to also apply for a prelim year position (and thus start neuro the year following the prelim).
 
i am seriously having difficulty believing all this. Sinai with 3 unfilled positions? Wash U with 2 unfilled? Duke with 3 unfilled? what the hell is going on here?

is it possible that these programs are 'saving' spots in their programs for stellar applicants (IMG's) who make under the table deals with them? I am assuming these programs find residents to fill the positions eventually - but from where? Not to sound xenophobic, but do these unfilled positions go to IMG's?

I am so confused. I don't want to sound stupid but how do I get my 5th choice when so many programs - including a couple listed here who I ranked higher - go unfilled????
 
congrats everyone.

indeed i find this really strange, so many good programs : Michigan, Wash U, Sinai, Cleveland, Duke, all w/spots unfilled. reminds me of the screw-up and re-do Urology match 3-4yrs ago. i may be wrong, but Drinkmilk the only way you didn't match at those places that didn't fill, if you ranked them higher than your 5th choice, would be if they didn't rank you at all. which would also be really odd...
 
I interviewed at Duke (as well as a few others on the list) and my impression of that program was negative because the residents did not seem happy. They didn't say anything bad about the program except of course that their call schedule was tough but I still got the feeling that something was off. A few other people interviewing with me that day had the same impression. If Duke had open positions, clearly they did not rank enough students on their list, probably from a false sense of confidence. I'm sure they won't make the same mistake next year.
BU also seemed very impressed with itself which was a big turn-off.
Tufts is going through some difficult transitions right now, has a far-flung hospital system, and is up against the MGH/Partners program and BU. They've been taking IMGs for a few years I think.
 
I wonder if that UofM spot filled -- how to find out?
 
beanalones said:
I interviewed at Duke (as well as a few others on the list) and my impression of that program was negative because the residents did not seem happy. They didn't say anything bad about the program except of course that their call schedule was tough but I still got the feeling that something was off. A few other people interviewing with me that day had the same impression. If Duke had open positions, clearly they did not rank enough students on their list, probably from a false sense of confidence. I'm sure they won't make the same mistake next year.
BU also seemed very impressed with itself which was a big turn-off.
Tufts is going through some difficult transitions right now, has a far-flung hospital system, and is up against the MGH/Partners program and BU. They've been taking IMGs for a few years I think.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised that Duke had open spots, more than one, . . . I wouldn't be surprised that BU didn't fill in the match, there is definitely an attitude there that is not justified even with the increase in competitiveness in neurology these days, Michigan and Barnes-Jewish is shocking. I wonder if this will affect what happens in the match next year
 
i can definitely second the unjustified, competitive attitude at BU. Same thing at Mt. Sinai.
 
drinkmilk said:
I am so confused. I don't want to sound stupid but how do I get my 5th choice when so many programs - including a couple listed here who I ranked higher - go unfilled????
Click to expand...

From what I've read of the match and how it works is that if program A ranks applicant Z and and applicant Z ranks program A then it is impossible for both the program not to fill and the applicant to go unmatched, the only way is if the program didn't rank you? I don't know why these programs would interview candidates and not rank them, especially since some of these programs are upper tier (some are obviously not), maybe there is some "irrational exuberrance" that applicants with higher scores/research or something will interview at their program, I am sure none wanted to have to scamble for residents . . . a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush!
 
drinkmilk said:
i can definitely second the unjustified, competitive attitude at BU. Same thing at Mt. Sinai.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I would expect Mt. Sinai to be a little competitive given that they are generally considered a tier above BU which is a very run-of-the-mill Neurology program. . . maybe they'll tone it down for next's year applicants so they are able to actually fill their spots via the match!:rolleyes:
 
Sinai is actually pretty run of the mill when compared to the resources available at the other NY programs (Cornell, Columbia, NYU). Also the attitude there - from chairman down - far, far, far exceeds the quality of the program. People have been chewed out in borderline unprofessional fashion during morning report on interview days, w/ applicants in attendance - not a great invitation to the program when better places have better attitudes.
 
To be honest, I am still quite shocked that Washu and UT-Southwestern did not fill their slots--particularly the former. I had great interview days at both places.

I was most surprised about Wash U because most applicants I ran into on the trail were also raving about the program. It is an academic powerhouse, lots of elective time and flexibility, down to earth residents, PD, faculty, and well known chairman. Plus housing is really affordable!! In fact, I struggled in deciding where to place it in my top 3(1,2,or 3)--out of 14 programs, and ended up putting it as #3.

Also, I felt UTSW was also a great program, who's strengths were Parkland, Night float system, affordable housing, and nice residents. A lot of residents tend to go into the privates sector after fellowship, with 1-2 going into academics. Overall , I still ranked them pretty high, because they look like an up and coming program. In addition, recall them being tied with JHU as the most voted for #1 on the ROL.....interesting.
 
I think Neurology being in the "regular" match may have caused some of these problems. How many top applicants were also applying to other specialties??

I'm surprised as well about the these two programs. I think it's likely a problem with their match list (i.e being too short and too selective) and that both of these programs are now considered "top 10" or are mentioned by a ton of people during interviews and they themselves may have bought into this and not ranked as many applicants as in previous years. My guess is this wont happen again!!

Woatalk said:
To be honest, I am still quite shocked that Washu and UT-Southwestern did not fill their slots--particularly the former. I had great interview days at both places.

I was most surprised about Wash U because most applicants I ran into on the trail were also raving about the program. It is an academic powerhouse, lots of elective time and flexibility, down to earth residents, PD, faculty, and well known chairman. Plus housing is really affordable!! In fact, I struggled in deciding where to place it in my top 3(1,2,or 3)--out of 14 programs, and ended up putting it as #3.

Also, I felt UTSW was also a great program, who's strengths were Parkland, Night float system, affordable housing, and nice residents. A lot of residents tend to go into the privates sector after fellowship, with 1-2 going into academics. Overall , I still ranked them pretty high, because they look like an up and coming program. In addition, recall them being tied with JHU as the most voted for #1 on the ROL.....interesting.
Click to expand...
 
islander said:
Sinai is actually pretty run of the mill when compared to the resources available at the other NY programs (Cornell, Columbia, NYU). Also the attitude there - from chairman down - far, far, far exceeds the quality of the program. People have been chewed out in borderline unprofessional fashion during morning report on interview days, w/ applicants in attendance - not a great invitation to the program when better places have better attitudes.
Click to expand...

Totally agree, the better places actually do have better attitudes, thanks for the word up about Sinai, of course I would rank Cornell and Columbia well above Sinai in terms of resources, a nasty chairman makes everybody think that they should/could act that way towards subordinates and it trickles down to the residents.
 
dopamine4me said:
I think Neurology being in the "regular" match may have caused some of these problems. How many top applicants were also applying to other specialties??

I'm surprised as well about the these two programs. I think it's likely a problem with their match list (i.e being too short and too selective) and that both of these programs are now considered "top 10" or are mentioned by a ton of people during interviews and they themselves may have bought into this and not ranked as many applicants as in previous years. My guess is this wont happen again!!
Click to expand...

Anybody know if Neurology got more applicants when it switched over to the regular match? I bet there were some folks who applied to related fields like medicine, PM&R, anesthesiology even for pain management who used neurology as a backup.
 
I rather go to one of these programs instead of the program I got into. How can you change out of the program you matched to?
 
nuttibar said:
I rather go to one of these programs instead of the program I got into. How can you change out of the program you matched to?
Click to expand...

There are whole issues with breaking your match agreement, i.e. it will be held against you as a match violation so if you leave and try to match next year then programs will be less inclined to take you, . . . there are probably ways to switch residency once you started though I would think, maybe aprogramdirector can answer this, . . . be careful and remember that the match is a serious contract/agreement . . . all neurology residency spots are filled anyway since the Scramble if you are trying to move laterally in neurology
 
Where do we get info on unfilled spots?
 
those spots are most likely filled by now via the scramble. And even if they weren't, you've entered into a binding contract to go to the program where you matched. Trying to switch because you might be able to find a spot you like better is unprofessional.
 
It's interesting that many people found the programs' self-image troubling or self-inflated. Another problem that is apparent is the declining quality of applicants overall - there has been a steep decline of applicants to medical schools since 1997, and the average quality of the medical school graduates nowadays is not as stellar as years ago when the current mid-career faculty members were completing their neurology training. As a result, many of the top and second tier programs think that they will get at least someone in the 10s to 20s range of their match list, when all the programs are fighting for the few strong applicants and the next group of above average residents. Neurology as a specialty is also losing many qualified applicants to Radiology an Anesthesiology, two specialties that work on the CNS and make more $ and have a better lifestyle. Old neurologists refuse to acknowledge this trend/problem, and their programs now are faced with unfilled match spots. AAN really should work on how to make Neurology a more appealing specialty to its current members and graduating medical students...
 
tofurious... not sure where you come up with this, but you are way wrong on just about all of it... not interested in explaning myself but would be very curiou what field you are in and where you are in your schooling...
 
tofurious said:
It's interesting that many people found the programs' self-image troubling or self-inflated. Another problem that is apparent is the declining quality of applicants overall - there has been a steep decline of applicants to medical schools since 1997, and the average quality of the medical school graduates nowadays is not as stellar as years ago when the current mid-career faculty members were completing their neurology training. As a result, many of the top and second tier programs think that they will get at least someone in the 10s to 20s range of their match list, when all the programs are fighting for the few strong applicants and the next group of above average residents. Neurology as a specialty is also losing many qualified applicants to Radiology an Anesthesiology, two specialties that work on the CNS and make more $ and have a better lifestyle. Old neurologists refuse to acknowledge this trend/problem, and their programs now are faced with unfilled match spots. AAN really should work on how to make Neurology a more appealing specialty to its current members and graduating medical students...
Click to expand...

While I don't know if I agree with all of this, it is true that Neurology used to be a very competitive specialty, I think because you need a huge knowledge base in Neurology and it is very academic i.e. deals with CNS issues not commonly taught in medical school, after medical school a student should feel they could tackle a family practice residency issues i.e. common screenings etc . . . whereas neurology had this aura around it. Neurologists used to be regarded as master history takers and excellent observationists . . .

Nowadays, I think that Internal Medicine is becoming more complex with evidence based medicine and new therapies, even Family Practice is very challenging with the breadth of knowledge required, so people who feel a need to challenge themselves intellectually find enough academic stimulation in these fields. After doing a neurology rotation, a lot of students feel it is basically a head CT/head MRI for a lot of patients, which I think has taken some guess work out of "localize the lesion" and more specialized fields like Neuro-radiology and neurosurgery are becoming much more sophisticated with stereotactic surgery. So neurology has changed significantly in terms of prestige in medicine. Add that with today's medical students becoming more familiar with the work of anesthesiologists, neuroradiologists, neurosurgeons, psychiatrists, PM&R and there is really is a lot of overlap between neurologists and other doctors in terms of the types of patients you see.
 
I agree with Ministral on this one. While it's true that there WAS a decline in the number of Med School apps during the time of the Tech Boom (presumably, this was partially the cause as well), the quality of accepted applicants continued to rise with regards to GPA and MCAT scores. Currently, I think there are even MORE applicants to Med Schools than in the mid 1990s and the standards for getting in are MUCH higher than 10-15 years ago.
Neurology is not super competitive, but it has been picking up. It's considered one of the most highly demanded specialties. Where I live, Neurology is in much greater demand than Cards, Derm and Rads. Of course, this won't be true anywhere, but it's clear that this is a great time to be a Neurologist. I'd rake Neuro over Anesthesia (the demand for which seems to be dipping) any day.
 
I'm so sick of people talking out of their asses on this forum. The amount of misinformation being perpetuated is woeful - everything from completely baseless rankings of 'prestige' and 'competitiveness' of neurology residency programs to imagined decline in 'quality' of medical students to decreased demand for neurologists in the future. My favorite example is the "Best Top 5" residencies list. If people have an opinion, it's wonderful to share, but to present opinion as fact is at best misleading. I for one have learned to take everything here with a grain of salt.
 
^^ well, well well...I think it is time for you to drink a warm glass of milk.
 
I think most people using these forums take the information given by others with a grain of salt (or a hundred!). Given the anonymous nature of the forums, there's going to be a lot of nonsense spewed all over the place. Most readers should be able to filter through it. That said, there is useful information to be found here. I'd rather have to sift through some garbage to obtain useful information than not have access to useful information at all.
 
This is not fact but observation: I think Neurology programs in the US are still able to attract strong candidates. I met great people I would love to work with during my interviews. Of course the money involved pushes people into derm or rads. But I have to agree that it's a great time to be a neurologist, and I wont be surprised at all if the demand goes up. Well, that's what I'm hoping for bec I'm biased to Neuro!
That's one thing I love about going to Neurology. I think, it attracts not so much strong candidates but die-hard candidates. That is, people want to be where they are. And that speaks a lot about morale in the field I guess.

As for the obsessive-compulsive tier-ranking of programs, I certainly don't agree with it, but it is also my observation that neurologists have a fascination for organization...which may explain such behavior :laugh:
 
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