USA match list data of Australian graduates.

[gmacpac]

Hi All,

I know that none of australean schools keep account of residency match profiles of North American graduates, so I was wondering if I could get a sense of where people ended up after completing their degrees in Australia.

Does anyone know about former graduates? and where they matched for their residency?

Cheers,

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[gmacpac]

Seriously?
None knows anything about UQ Alumni, and where they matched? Sounds a bit unreal.

Any word will be greatly appreciated.

 

[shan564]

Seriously?
None knows anything about UQ Alumni, and where they matched? Sounds a bit unreal.

Any word will be greatly appreciated.

Well, UQ doesn't keep track of it because, unlike the Caribbean schools, their primary purpose isn't to train N.American doctors. They don't really care about whether or not their students match overseas... they're more concerned with their graduates who stay in Australia. Even with those people, it's not as big of a deal as it is in the US... the schools there are all public, so competition between schools isn't as vehement there as it is here.

Plenty of people have personal experience, but nobody went through the effort of compiling a formal match list. I don't blame them... if I was in their place, I wouldn't do it either.

 

[gmacpac]

Well, UQ doesn't keep track of it because, unlike the Caribbean schools, their primary purpose isn't to train N.American doctors. They don't really care about whether or not their students match overseas... they're more concerned with their graduates who stay in Australia. Even with those people, it's not as big of a deal as it is in the US... the schools there are all public, so competition between schools isn't as vehement there as it is here.

Plenty of people have personal experience, but nobody went through the effort of compiling a formal match list. I don't blame them... if I was in their place, I wouldn't do it either.

Well, I agree on some points, but also disagree on others.

I agree that UQ's main goal is to train Physicians (mainly for AU) but in general they want to train Quality Physicians who can work anywhere.
I also understand why individual students didn't bother documenting where they or their peers went for residency. After all, what do they get out of it? Nothing!!! It should be primarily the institution's responsibility to do such research on its grads.

Secondly, I do think that UQ is concerned about where its graduates go. Keep in mind that at the end of the day it is, in a way, a business. A business which accepts 100 international students every year, and if it wants to continue to attract the same number of students, it better care about where its students end up after graduation.
So far UQ has not kept tabs on exactly where its students have matched, however, if we (prospective customer) persistantly request them to show us data, they will become more vigilante about finding out where exactly its people are matching so as to convince future students that it's students (UQ) are doing okay when it comes to matching in USA.
According to the international rep at UQ, UQ currently has affiliation with Northwestern University in Chicago and with UCSD, and is currently planning on acquiring more official affiliations with other US programs. If UQ truly didn't care about USA matches, and they were really ONLY focused on training Physicians for Australia, they would never try to form official ties with other US institutions.

Lastly, I knew that UQ does not keep tabs on USA's match list, which is why I posted here to see if there are Alumni or friends/students of Alumni that may give us an idea whether UQ students are somewhat successful in obtaining post-graduate residency here in USA.

Given the above statements...............Does anyone have any idea where UQ people are matching?????

 

[redshifteffect]

Well, I agree on some points, but also disagree on others.

I agree that UQ's main goal is to train Physicians (mainly for AU) but in general they want to train Quality Physicians who can work anywhere.
I also understand why individual students didn't bother documenting where they or their peers went for residency. After all, what do they get out of it? Nothing!!! It should be primarily the institution's responsibility to do such research on its grads.

Secondly, I do think that UQ is concerned about where its graduates go. Keep in mind that at the end of the day it is, in a way, a business. A business which accepts 100 international students every year, and if it wants to continue to attract the same number of students, it better care about where its students end up after graduation.
So far UQ has not kept tabs on exactly where its students have matched, however, if we (prospective customer) persistantly request them to show us data, they will become more vigilante about finding out where exactly its people are matching so as to convince future students that it's students (UQ) are doing okay when it comes to matching in USA.
According to the international rep at UQ, UQ currently has affiliation with Northwestern University in Chicago and with UCSD, and is currently planning on acquiring more official affiliations with other US programs. If UQ truly didn't care about USA matches, and they were really ONLY focused on training Physicians for Australia, they would never try to form official ties with other US institutions.

Lastly, I knew that UQ does not keep tabs on USA's match list, which is why I posted here to see if there are Alumni or friends/students of Alumni that may give us an idea whether UQ students are somewhat successful in obtaining post-graduate residency here in USA.

Given the above statements...............Does anyone have any idea where UQ people are matching?????

However if they don't get American students they can still cater to Malaysian and Singaporean students, along with other students from Asia. Most of these countries accept their graduates back without too much hassle so UQ wouldn't necessarily care.

Most International students (other then Canadians/Americans) usually prefer to stay in Australia or match back to their own countries, so I guess what you really mean is if UQ would like to continue attracting North American students they should publish a match list to the US.

Now this is subjective but from a business perspective, they are probably better off not catering to North American students, because in general we are probably more work for the amount we bring in then other international students. We also naturally have a lot more concerns about matching back then other students would.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

According to the international rep at UQ, UQ currently has affiliation with Northwestern University in Chicago and with UCSD, and is currently planning on acquiring more official affiliations with other US programs. If UQ truly didn't care about USA matches, and they were really ONLY focused on training Physicians for Australia, they would never try to form official ties with other US institutions.

Lastly, I knew that UQ does not keep tabs on USA's match list, which is why I posted here to see if there are Alumni or friends/students of Alumni that may give us an idea whether UQ students are somewhat successful in obtaining post-graduate residency here in USA.

Given the above statements...............Does anyone have any idea where UQ people are matching?????

They also are developing ties with schools in Europe.. so what. Many places have international ties for furthering clinical and preclinical research and education.

This is not the same thing as a Caribbean medical school who "creates ties" with certain hospitals so they can get their graduates back into the states.

The (primary) mission of UQ as a public University medical school paid for and run by the state government is to train graduates to practice in Queensland, and the rest of Australia, and lastly overseas.

Australian graduates are required to complete an internship before they are allowed to to apply for specialty training.. unlike in the US where they Match while in their final year of med school. UQ probably could give you stats on which internships their students are getting.. but they don't have a follow-up database where they get their graduates to come back and fill in data on what specialty they got into a couple of years after they graduated. (they could... but its not really a priority)

The fact that the Caribbean schools feel they HAVE to keep match lists and publish their lists on their websites actually tells me that they are trying to compensate for something. They have to prove that they are good enough to get graduates into certain programs. (just a thought)

Also, Another thing to consider is that Family medicine (General practice) is also actually competitive in Australia and many graduates actually want to do this training.. not everyone wants to become a specialist in Australia because General practice in Australia pays a lot more than US Family Practice and they have a better lifestyle with more benefits. Some GPs in Queensland are making over 500k USD/year and work office hours and have weekends free. (something to think about)

Look.. I understand where you're coming from.. but trust me.. all Australian medical schools are good programs. They are on average very well regarded in the US by most US residency program directors. Just do a friggen Google search for "Queensland and Residency and MD" or "Sydney and Residency and MD", etc. ..something like that and see what you come up with. You will find many many graduates who are currently in or who have completed very competitive residency programs in the United States and elsewhere.

The only thing I could suggest is that maybe you could try to contact someone in the Medical Alumni Association.
Sydney MAA
Queensland MAA

Also, I don't know about the other Australian Universities.. but Sydney has a North American Alumni Association (not specifically medical though)
SUGUNA

 

[gmacpac]

Strong Point!

I am not a big fan of Carribean programs either, and was never really trying to compare Carribean vs. UQ, because in reality there is no comparision. Carribean programs do not come close to UQ's integrity as an institution. But I do see your point in deriving the above analogy.

Nonetheless, do you not think it is unfair to ask for a match list after paying close to 250K in tuition? I am raising this issue over again because I think if the more of us ask, then the more the UQ's staff are going to think about making one. Keep in mind some of us do want to come back to the U.S (despite its cold weather, and rainy summers, and currently an unpredictable economy)
Just because it was never done before, it doesn't mean it couldn't/shouldn't be started...........just a thought.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Nonetheless, do you not think it is unfair to ask for a match list after paying close to 250K in tuition? I am raising this issue over again because I think if the more of us ask, then the more the UQ's staff are going to think about making one. Keep in mind some of us do want to come back to the U.S (despite its cold weather, and rainy summers, and currently an unpredictable economy)

No argument there.. No problem with asking them to start one. I was just saying you shouldn't expect it. thats all. Maybe you guys can start one going.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

These schools have no reason to put up North American match lists, these are not havens for US and Canadian rejects like the Caribbean schools. The Caribbean schools are all for profit institutions that are aimed at North American students who want US licensure. I actually looked at Caribbean schools and have visited those islands, anyone who would want to pick an island school over an Australian school is either out of their mind or is hiding under their mom's apron. I even seen some of the better island schools and they have some serious issues with regards to facilities, teaching, you name it.
Australia is actually more livable than the best parts of North America, I have been all around this planet, trust me there are people who swim in shark infested waters to live in Oz.

Before asking about the match list, ask about how many people they accept actually graduate?? Attrition in the Grad Entry programs is as low as North American schools.

The majority of people who have gotten into these schools usually have a 30+ MCAT, which is way above the typical MCAT for the island schools, and its roughly the same as the MCAT needed to be competitive for US MD schools.

When you get here, get a place all to yourself and get ready to study your rear end off.

The USMLE is the bottom line with regards to matching in the US. The score you need will vary depending upon the program. There are some big changes planned for the exam, the Step 1 portion is going to be eliminated and there will be a focus on clinical skills and knowledge, which will probably be a big plus since the clinical portion of medical education is known to be stronger than what you find in the States.

I recently applied to internship positions and I could not believe how easy it was to do it. Once you are done with the internship then you can go onto postgrad training. I completed some US electives and observing US medical residents compared to those in Oz, it was like night and day, residency training in Oz is far more humane.

 

[gmacpac]

You mean Australian schools have a low attrition rate? or Carribean programs?

Again, I am not comparing Carib w. AU.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Attrition in the Caribbean is high, Australian schools have low rates of attrition, and its generally low among international students. I knew one or two students who left during the beginning of my first year because they missed mommy or whatever. The worst thing I heard of was one student failing a rotation and repeating it but thats not a big deal. The schools here are a lot more selective than those in the Caribbean. Even UQ's first year class is actually small compared to many of the island schools, SGU has nearly a 1000 in their first year class alone.

One of my friends who went to Ross told me nearly half of his class was outright kicked out on their rear ends.

One thing to note about Australia is that they use a lot more subtle terminology, self directed learning is known as studying in the US. They give you "recommended" reading instead of required material. Some people I know at US schools told me it works just like this there, with "recommended" reading instead of required reading, but you really should complete anything recommended because chances are it will show up in your assessments(Australian term for exams). Make sure you show up to class and do all the required work and not run off to the beach and screw around, show up to all your rotations on time, don't piss off your facilitator and treat him or her with complete respect, this applies to everyone of the hospital staff.

 

[gmacpac]

Attrition in the Caribbean is high, Australian schools have low rates of attrition, and its generally low among international students. I knew one or two students who left during the beginning of my first year because they missed mommy or whatever. The worst thing I heard of was one student failing a rotation and repeating it but thats not a big deal. The schools here are a lot more selective than those in the Caribbean. Even UQ's first year class is actually small compared to many of the island schools, SGU has nearly a 1000 in their first year class alone.

One of my friends who went to Ross told me nearly half of his class was outright kicked out on their rear ends.

One thing to note about Australia is that they use a lot more subtle terminology, self directed learning is known as studying in the US. They give you "recommended" reading instead of required material. Some people I know at US schools told me it works just like this there, with "recommended" reading instead of required reading, but you really should complete anything recommended because chances are it will show up in your assessments(Australian term for exams). Make sure you show up to class and do all the required work and not run off to the beach and screw around, show up to all your rotations on time, don't piss off your facilitator and treat him or her with complete respect, this applies to everyone of the hospital staff.

I know I have asked this question before.......do they cover enough of basic sciences in the first 2 years to be able to give USMLE step 1? In other words....how are biochem and other basic sciences taught?

 

[JoeNamaMD]

You will probably have to do a little extra reading on your own with regards to Biochem. I took the Step 1 at the end of my third year, it made a big difference to complete a year of clinicals before taking the Step 1. Using material like Kaplan, USMLE World, Goljan Pathology will help a lot.

 

[gmacpac]

how about other basic sciences? pathology? embryology? do they all require extra reading besides the course content?

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I think you should be fine, I really do not know your study habits and how well you do on standardized tests. If you are completely sure that you do want to practice in North America and are not interested in working in Australia I would recommend you go to an Osteopathic medical school because it will make life a lot easier. I hear all this nonsense that DOs are lower than MDs, but in the US for all purposes they are essentially equal.
If you are planning to live in Australia, I don't see any issues at all but if you are set on the US, you should stay with US schools.

 

[Zuckman]

Well, it may become difficult to stay in Oz because of the lack of internship spots right? I'm hoping there are enough in Queensland for the 2012 class.

Zuck

 

[gmacpac]

I agree DO = MD. No difference in practicing rights, except internationally.

Good advice Joenamma.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Well if you are planning to work only in North America MD or DO will not really matter. In reality there a bunch of countries where DOs have full practice rights. Australia just happens to be one of them. Even the Canadians now allow DOs full practice rights in most provinces. The UK, Germany, China, a number of the other countries allow DO practice rights.

If your mind is totally made up that you do not want to leave good old North America by all means, go the DO route.

I think Australia has a lot of potential, especially since in terms of economic growth, the Asia Pacific region is going to leave the rest of the planet including the US in the dust. But thats just my humble opinion.

 

[gmacpac]

Well if you are planning to work only in North America MD or DO will not really matter. In reality there a bunch of countries where DOs have full practice rights. Australia just happens to be one of them. Even the Canadians now allow DOs full practice rights in most provinces. The UK, Germany, China, a number of the other countries allow DO practice rights.

If your mind is totally made up that you do not want to leave good old North America by all means, go the DO route.

I think Australia has a lot of potential, especially since in terms of economic growth, the Asia Pacific region is going to leave the rest of the planet including the US in the dust. But thats just my humble opinion.

I am very much open to living in Australia, however, considering that my entire family is situated in Northeastern USA I am also likely to come back for family reasons. Which is why I want to keep my options open.

Thanks for your advice.
Cheers.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

The biggest reason why they do not keep US match statistics is because few people take the USMLE, at UQ I think only about 15 people took it. I do not know of anyone who failed the exam.

I have heard some rumors from faculty that Australian medical schools are trying to get the kind of accreditation that would make them equal to US and Canadian schools in bureaucratic terms, in other words in the future it maybe possible that Australian graduates will no longer be considered IMGs in the US and Canada, but this is not a guarantee and it is not the case right now. It could be a possibility sometime down the road.

Canadian graduates are right now the only non-US graduates who are considered equals to US MDs in terms of being in the first round of the US match. And with regards to the Canadian system, generally only US MDs are equal to Canadian MDs in the Carms match.

Right now if a student completes the MBBS and then undergoes registar training in Australia and completes it, they would be able to practice in Canada. I think its tricky though to get into Carms directly, but I think Canada is such a pain in the neck with regards to IMGs its not just not worth it go back and its better just to go to the US for training and work if one wants to live in North America.

A few years ago, it was possible to work in the UK with an Aussie MBBS, now Australian graduates have to take the PLAB which is required for non UK doctors to practice there.

One thing I know about lifestyle in Oz is that people here get a lot more vacation than they do in North America, you get at least five paid weeks off a year, a lot of people who have worked for a while take even more, which gives you the time to travel back home. I know doctors in the States who have went for years without taking a vacation. Hours are less and working conditions are much better in than North America too. I just went on some clinicals at a very big name research hospital in the States and frankly a lot of people I met were curious about wanting to work in Oz.