Using PHD/PsyD title in state not licensed in

[Goobernut]

But you can understand how someone who spent 8 years in doctoral and postdoctoral training could get a bit irritated at the suggestion that all that training was for naught because, say, an LPC has "been there, done that."

"I can do everything you do" is the complement of "anything you can do, I can do better," no?

I completely agree. I am not defending those that claim equivalency. Believe me, it frustrates me too, because I think they make mid-levels look bad. I just like to be here to defend against what I think is "over-correct" hahaha. I also understand (but don't agree with) those mid-levels claiming equivalency because they were led by employers to think they are practicing within their scope. Some people don't question authority, and believe if their employer tasks them with it, then it's within their scope. I'm side-eyeing you skeezy non-profit agencies... I think it's important to remember in practice the world sometimes looks different than the situations we debate here. I think that's why I like working alongside the medical world. Roles are very well defined, and phrases like "scope of practice" and "operating at the top of one's license" are fully understood and encouraged to be put in daily practice.

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[OneNeuroDoctor]

As in prior threads, when a professional has multiple mental health licenses, it becomes more complicated. If you have both LCSW and Licensed Psychologist you can work under either license. However, if you are only licensed as LCSW and not a Licensed Psychologist, then you must disclose that you are working under your MSW rather than your PsyD.

 

[Pragma]

As in prior threads when a professional has multiple mental health license, it becomes more complicated. If you have both LCSW and Licensed Psychologist you can work under either license. However, if you are only licensed as LCSW and not a Licensed Psychologist, then you must disclose that you are working under your MSW rather than your PsyD.

Thank you for a great post, OND.

 

[smalltownpsych]

As in prior threads, when a professional has multiple mental health licenses, it becomes more complicated. If you have both LCSW and Licensed Psychologist you can work under either license. However, if you are only licensed as LCSW and not a Licensed Psychologist, then you must disclose that you are working under your MSW rather than your PsyD.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of both the field of social work and the field of psychology and promotes equivalence while denigrating both professions. Someone is either a social worker or a psychologist, they can't be both. They are different, although related and often closely working together professions. I guess I could just get a degree in nursing, social work, psychology, maybe OT and PT to round it off and then call myself a multidisciplinary team. Unfrigginbelievable!

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

This shows a complete lack of understanding of both the field of social work and the field of psychology and promotes equivalence while denigrating both professions. Someone is either a social worker or a psychologist, they can't be both. They are different, although related and often closely working together professions. I guess I could just get a degree in nursing, social work, psychology, maybe OT and PT to round it off and then call myself a multidisciplinary team. Unfrigginbelievable!

Really... There are professionals with dual licensure. My postdoctoral neuropsychology supervisors is both an MSW and a Licensed Psychologist. He only uses his psychologist license now but his LCSW license is also currently active.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Really... There are professionals with dual licensure. My postdoctoral neuropsychology supervisors is both an MSW and a Licensed Psychologist. He only uses his psychologist license now but his LCSW license is also currently active.

We discussed in another thread why someone might do this so that they can effectively provide clinical supervision. I get that. My point was the license doesn't determine the role and profession. In my view you are either a psychologist or a social worker and to imply this equivalency because we often do similar things demeans both professions.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

We discussed in another thread why someone might do this so that they can effectively provide clinical supervision. I get that. My point was the license doesn't determine the role and profession. In my view you are either a psychologist or a social worker and to imply this equivalency because we often do similar things demeans both professions.

Wait... Where did I say they are equivalent? If you hold dual licensure it is your legal right to work under either or all of your licenses. It does become complicated and confusing to the consumer. It is known that a LCSW and a Licensed Psychologist are not equivalent training. I have an office with three LCSW and two LPC and they all do therapy and I do therapy and testing. They Bill 75-100 dollars per hour and I bill 150 dollars per hour.

They rarely talk to me. A PhD student in Rehabilitation Counseling is now working here on weekends and she claims she has taken testing courses and practicum and she is wanting to borrow some of my test. I declined as you have to be licensed by the psychology board to do psychological testing in my State. However, in Missouri an LPC can do all testing except for Projective and she plans on working in Missouri.

 

[deleted343839]

I think that's why I like working alongside the medical world. Roles are very well defined, and phrases like "scope of practice" and "operating at the top of one's license" are fully understood and encouraged to be put in daily practice.

I think you overestimate the degree of role clarity and consensus about scope of practice in the medical world, but I get your general point and I agree.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Wait... Where did I say they are equivalent? If you hold dual licensure it is your legal right to work under either or all of your licenses. It does become complicated and confusing to the consumer. It is known that a LCSW and a Licensed Psychologist are not equivalent training. I have an office with three LCSW and two LPC and they all do therapy and I do therapy and testing. They Bill 75-100 dollars per hour and I bill 150 dollars per hour.

They rarely talk to me. A PhD student in Rehabilitation Counseling is now working here on weekends and she claims she has taken testing courses and practicum and she is wanting to borrow some of my test. I declined as you have to be licensed by the psychology board to do psychological testing in my State. However, in Missouri an LPC can do all testing except for Projective and she plans on working in Missouri.

Being a social worker is about a lot more than just doing therapy at least according to the social workers that I know. Being a psychologist is about a lot more than just doing therapy and testing. It is almost like you are describing them as interchangeable and that getting these multiple degrees in different fields and confusing the heck out of everyone is no big deal.

 

[463951]

However, in Missouri an LPC can do all testing except for Projective and she plans on working in Missouri.

Do you have a source?

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Of course.. It is common knowledge what SW and Psychologist do. No where did I say they are interchangeable or equivalent.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Do you have a source?

I've been an LPC in MO since 1988. You could be a Psychologist in MO with a MS degree until the early 90's. Psychologists supervise and hire LPC's as psychometrist in MO. You can look this up on the respective licensing boards websites.

 

[ClinicalABA]

As in prior threads, when a professional has multiple mental health licenses, it becomes more complicated. If you have both LCSW and Licensed Psychologist you can work under either license. However, if you are only licensed as LCSW and not a Licensed Psychologist, then you must disclose that you are working under your MSW rather than your PsyD.

My work is split about 60/40 between my Psychologist Licensure and my BCBA Certification and (as of a few months ago), ABA Licensure. Psychologist stuff is almost exclusively testing, with a smattering of case consultation. While there is not a lot of obvious clinical overlap between services I bill as a BCBA and as a Psychologist, there is some and I occasionally need to clarify what my role is. This happens typically when I am doing BCBA services and may be offering suggestions based on something I was trained in as a psychologist (Note that, when I am providing services and billing as a BCBA, I will not preform direct, non-ABA related duties of a psychologist- I'm talking more about noticing a symptom/behavior and knowing of an additional assessment or intervention that might be warranted, vs actually doing that assessment or treatment). I make it clear that my role is BCBA, but my "training as a psychologist has given me the skills to (whatever)". I find that I really can't just be a BCBA or a Psychologist- I am specifically trained as both, and approach clinical situations as such. A lot of time, I will clarify so that parents/guardians (I work with little kids) don't get confused as to why other BCBAs (past, current, or future) working with their child have not done the same. It can be pretty confusing to people.

I must add, I don't have anyone call me "Doctor LastName"- mainly because it sounds funny and I have a difficult name to pronounce correctly, but also because I just prefer to be called by my first name. If they do, I just say "please call me FirstName". I do, however, always asks parents if they are ok with their child calling me by my first name and respect whatever they say.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My work is split about 60/40 between my Psychologist Licensure and my BCBA Certification and (as of a few months ago), ABA Licensure. Psychologist stuff is almost exclusively testing, with a smattering of case consultation. While there is not a lot of obvious clinical overlap between services I bill as a BCBA and as a Psychologist, there is some and I occasionally need to clarify what my role is. This happens typically when I am doing BCBA services and may be offering suggestions based on something I was trained in as a psychologist (Note that, when I am providing services and billing as a BCBA, I will not preform direct, non-ABA related duties of a psychologist- I'm talking more about noticing a symptom/behavior and knowing of an additional assessment or intervention that might be warranted, vs actually doing that assessment or treatment). I make it clear that my role is BCBA, but my "training as a psychologist has given me the skills to (whatever)". I find that I really can't just be a BCBA or a Psychologist- I am specifically trained as both, and approach clinical situations as such. A lot of time, I will clarify so that parents/guardians (I work with little kids) don't get confused as to why other BCBAs (past, current, or future) working with their child have not done the same. It can be pretty confusing to people.

I must add, I don't have anyone call me "Doctor LastName"- mainly because it sounds funny and I have a difficult name to pronounce correctly, but also because I just prefer to be called by my first name. If they do, I just say "please call me FirstName". I do, however, always asks parents if they are ok with their child calling me by my first name and respect whatever they say.

Very clear awareness and plan for handling separate yet related roles. Good modeling of how a psychologist thinks about and works toward a resolution of these types of issues. I am also involved in other roles where there is some overlap because of my own involvement in community support and I also work very hard at maintaining clarity as to which hat I'm wearing and why.

 

[ikibah]

This conversation has been recycled around this forum for years over and over again. For anybody new to the boards here is a run down, I suggest you read this and save yourself the hours of scrounging through the thousands of posts that go back and forth...and back again. In the SDN world you will find people who believe.
A. Phd is the best, masters level clinicians stink.
B. There is no difference between PhD's and masters level clinicians - they are equal.
C. The professions do differ greatly however they also overlap greatly - while there are social workers/masters level clinicians that have responsibilities that differ largley from that which psychologists do and while there are psychologists whose responsobilites differe greatly from that which social workers/masters level clinicians do - many of them do the exact same thing, hence the overlap. Which one is better is not even a conversation

My opinion on the "using the dr. title" is as follows (it has changed and can change again but this is how I feel now) I feel like using a psyd if you're not a psychologist is sketchy - is it the end of the world and ethically disgusting? I don't know. Is it sketchy? I think so. The reason I say this is because a PsyD was made to train practicing psychologists, to market this degree would maybe imply you're a psychologist. However I don't see an issue with an lcpc/mft/lcsw using a PhD in social work or marriage and family therapy as those degrees aren't for licensure, rather they are academic - they don't necessarily imply psychologist. I don't think there's anything wrong with letting your clients know you have continued education into a similar (or same) field in which you practice.

Outside of SDN this conversation is null - nobody gives a rat's ass about either.

 

[Pragma]

I don't think many posters here would agree with A. B is a problem we do see on these boards. C has more nuances to it but I think most of us would agree that if you represent yourself accurately and remain within your licensed scope of practice, there isn't a problem.

Some people don't know what they don't know, and that can be a problem for the general public. It isn't an ego thing. We all want competent and ethicsl providers out there delivering evidence-based treatments. We don't want charlatans doing harm.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Outside of SDN this conversation is null - nobody gives a rat's ass about either.

While I agree with your opinions on use of titles/credentials, the quoted statement is not accurate. While most of the general public doesn't care or isn't effected, and there may not be much "discussion" of an SDN nature on the topic elsewhere, legislatures and licensing boards certainly do care- regulations on board positions on the topic have been promulgated and enforced in most jurisdictions. While it's not a major topic of debate outside these "halls," it's not "null" either. Practitioners should be aware of how they represent themselves, mainly because the behavior is regulated and the regulations are enforced (regardless of our opinions on the matter!).

 

[clinpsyc87]

I don't think many posters here would agree with A.

Really? It's hard to argue with a previous poster who pointed out the hypocrisy that if someone primarily wants to be a clinician everyone here tells him to go LPC route, and then they do nothing but disparage LPCs in the same thread

 

[smalltownpsych]

Really? It's hard to argue with a previous poster who pointed out the hypocrisy that if someone primarily wants to be a clinician everyone here tells him to go LPC route, and then they do nothing but disparage LPCs in the same thread

Where are these disparaging comments?

 

[Pragma]

Double post

 

[Pragma]

Really? It's hard to argue with a previous poster who pointed out the hypocrisy that if someone primarily wants to be a clinician everyone here tells him to go LPC route, and then they do nothing but disparage LPCs in the same thread

Maybe one or two posters believe that MA level practitioners "stink" as point A was worded, but to suggest that this is common on SDN is some silly hyperbole.

 

[clinpsyc87]

Maybe one or two posters believe that MA level practitioners "stink" as point A was worded, but to suggest that this is common on SDN is some silly hyperbole.

Okay, no, most of them wouldn't use the word stink. But is there bias, condescension, etc? Of course. In the majority. Maybe not in the strictest literal sense, but among the peanut gallery regulars who attack the wording of the original point.

 

[Pragma]

Okay, no, most of them wouldn't use the word stink. But is there bias, condescension, etc? Of course. In the majority. Maybe not in the strictest literal sense, but among the peanut gallery regulars who attack the wording of the original point.
View attachment 195538

So your use of a vague anecdote to attack my nuanced, non-black-and-white point doesn't fit your little cartoon? Settle down.

I think it depends on how someone perceives condescension. I do think that PhDs are better trained in general, but I have no problem referring to master's level providers. I guess I don't see what the problem is here. Some posters might take being considered anything less than equivalent as "condescending" and that isn't really going to go anywhere. This thread has some thoughtful responses in it and here you are playing "gotcha" - I'd rather stop wasting my time.

 

[erg923]

Okay, no, most of them wouldn't use the word stink. But is there bias, condescension, etc? Of course. In the majority. Maybe not in the strictest literal sense, but among the peanut gallery regulars who attack the wording of the original point.
View attachment 195538

Of course there is bias! Everyone is biased to their own training or else they wouldn't have bothered with that particular effort! Admitting you have biases is part of facing reality. I think this is better than denial, dont you?

 

[clinpsyc87]

Of course there is bias! Everyone is biased to their own training or else they wouldn't have bothered with the effort! Admitting you have biases is part of facing reality. I think this is better than denial, dont you?

Tell that to pragma, although she probably won't tell you to calm down since she agrees with you. Not that that would ever come off as condescending

 

[erg923]

Tell that to pragma, although she probably won't tell you to calm down since she agrees with you. Not that that would ever come off as condescending

Calm down, son.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Still waiting to see quotes from the posts indicating that LPCs are no good.

 

[clinpsyc87]

Still waiting to see quotes from the posts indicating that LPCs are no good.

Ask all the people that regularly charge this forum with that. I can't fathom how I would benefit from throwing my pearls before swine

 

[cara susanna]

Wow, the last three or more pages of this thread are literally the same argument over and over.

 

[Goobernut]

There are multiple reasons I hang around this board. Partially it's because I genuinely enjoy the personalities the board. Another reason is to hopefully be a good representative of mid-level practitioners. If I can't do that , I can, at least, counter some of the misinformation that is often posted on this board about mid-levels. I don't take the misinformation personally, because really, how would a PhD know all the different curricula for the bajillion midlevel programs? (Even though they choose to comment on it over and over again lol... ) Several other mid-level posters have similar feelings and we have brought it up (within our own private group) off and on over the years.


But I will confess that I have gotten frustrated at some of the disparaging comments I've read directed at mid-levels. To be honest though, there is praise as well. Sometimes even in the same post! I think people aren't aware of how a mid-level or undergrad might interpret their statements. In general, I've started asking for clarification if something comes off really craptastic in tone, but suspect that the intended meaning is a bit different. I've been pleasantly surprised at some of the respectful answers I've received. In our own small mid-level group, we confessed that at first we were intimidated and didn't want to respond when posters took pot-shots at mid-levels. Mostly because we were afraid that instead of a dialogue, our posts would be dismissed in a myriad of ways. Many of us were intimidated by a feeling that our writing was poor, or maybe just not good enough? Several of us continue to post anyway as an exercise in writing and feeling uncomfortable. Or even as a way to practice haha. There are very few posters on this forum who will give you the benefit of the doubt or even ask for clarification before they tell you how wrong you are. The forum is what it is *shrugs* As a long time internet resident, I feel like it's pretty much like any other internet forum. It is not exempt because it's populated by mental health providers.

I *could* give you a long list of craptastic insults directly hurled at mid-levels, but why? I feel like it is a pointless exercise with no real solution (and I would have wasted all that time!!!). Some of the comments are from "regulars", but in the same post and/or same thread they discuss how a competent mid-level is meaningful to mental health or how there are several they feel confident in referring patients to. In the end, I think I've decided it's the internet and an individual's intent is not always clear. But I DO wish there was a way to explain how some of the posts sound to mid-levels or undergraduate students. I have not previously tried to explain it, because I'm pretty certain that I will be blamed for "misunderstanding the intent" or it "being my problem and/or attitude" that causes the misunderstanding.

 

[Shooter]

So your use of a vague anecdote to attack my nuanced, non-black-and-white point doesn't fit your little cartoon? Settle down.

I think it depends on how someone perceives condescension. I do think that PhDs are better trained in general, but I have no problem referring to master's level providers. I guess I don't see what the problem is here. Some posters might take being considered anything less than equivalent as "condescending" and that isn't really going to go anywhere. This thread has some thoughtful responses in it and here you are playing "gotcha" - I'd rather stop wasting my time.

Cool pic-attachment

 

[ikibah]

for those who this may be of interest. I had the pleasure of speaking with somebody who is part of my state's board of psychology and I remembered that this topic has come up a number of few times on this board. Also, remembered how this post expooded. Either way I asked her what the board felt about people with master level licensure using psyd phd etc. and dr. even though they aren't licensed with that degree and she didn;t even skip a beat. She was like "What's the issue - are they calling themselves psychologists or just listing s degree they earned? She couldn't see why it was an issue.

Just an experience I thought I'd share.

 

[CheetahGirl]

The day I defend my doctoral dissertation (and from then on), I will call myself 'doctor' (along with forcing my siblings to do the same..ha!) because I would have fulfilled all the requirements to do so. I will only call myself a 'licensed clinical psychologist' after I complete all my post-doc hours and pass the EPPP because then I would have fulfilled all my state requirements to do so. As I see it, the largest transgression with this issue is mis-representation.

Bringing in an analogy...I will not call the physician assistant who checks my vitals, gives me a signed prescription, a 'doctor.' A PA is not an MD or a DO. Likewise, a masters level clinician is not a psychologist. Period (unless you are in NYC, whereas there is some ridiculous loophole that allows master's level folks in the school system to call themselves 'school psychologists' and they often do...and I encourage fellow parents to clarify the degree with the person). It all has to do with level of training. And masters level does not equal doctorate level. It's not being elitist...it's a fact. I have two masters degrees and I clearly see the distinction between the two degrees, level of training, culpability and responsibility once you begin to practice. Plus starting a therapeutic relationship with misrepresentation is never a good way to start any new relationship.

 

[ikibah]

The day I defend my doctoral dissertation (and from then on), I will call myself 'doctor' (along with forcing my siblings to do the same..ha!) because I would have fulfilled all the requirements to do so. I will only call myself a 'licensed clinical psychologist' after I complete all my post-doc hours and pass the EPPP because then I would have fulfilled all my state requirements to do so. As I see it, the largest transgression with this issue is mis-representation.

Bringing in an analogy...I will not call the physician assistant who checks my vitals, gives me a signed prescription, a 'doctor.' A PA is not an MD or a DO. Likewise, a masters level clinician is not a psychologist. Period (unless you are in NYC, whereas there is some ridiculous loophole that allows master's level folks in the school system to call themselves 'school psychologists' and they often do...and I encourage fellow parents to clarify the degree with the person). It all has to do with level of training. And masters level does not equal doctorate level. It's not being elitist...it's a fact. I have two masters degrees and I clearly see the distinction between the two degrees, level of training, culpability and responsibility once you begin to practice. Plus starting a therapeutic relationship with misrepresentation is never a good way to start any new relationship.

Oh forsure! I don't think the question was ever if somebody could call themselves a psychologist! We're talking about social worker, mfts lcpc's etc who have an academic doctorate...or a psyd w.o a licence and if they could use the title dr. and put their phd psyd etc. after their name after they defend their dissertation.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Oh forsure! I don't think the question was ever if somebody could call themselves a psychologist! We're talking about social worker, mfts lcpc's etc who have an academic doctorate...or a psyd w.o a licence and if they could use the title dr. and put their phd psyd etc. after their name after they defend their dissertation.

Oh! Back to your original post. Well, I guess she's saying they could use their title as doctor...b/c they earned the degree as they are awaiting licensure. But if they have not defended, they cannot. And if they are not licensed, they may not state they are...that would be a serious legal violation. That's why I listed my avatar as ABD...its not formal, but means "all but dissertation"...which is coming soon to a theater near you, hopefully before Star Wars Episode VII is released!

As I understand it: A social worker, mfts, lcpc with a doctorate can call him/herself "doctor" but (of course) NOT psychologist...because their degree was not in psychology. For example, Dr. David Dia, (http://www.drdaviddia.com/Career_Profile.html) has every right to call himself a doctor...I've read some of his stuff (and hate to admit, seen him on TV), but he is a professor of social work and practices psychotherapy and behavior therapy (he's probably better at what he does than some licensed psychologists out there).

And any PsyD, PhD who has not defended his/her doctoral degree (and fulfilled those lovely requirements, like internship) in their school, clinical, counseling psychology degree, may not call him/herself doctor until they do so. I don't see why a PsyD without a license would be any different than a PhD without a license. I'm a supporter of PsyD degrees (*from a reputable program*). I've had colleagues, supervisors, friends with PsyDs and make little distinction between the training of the two...as long as the programs of both are reputable. But this is because some of us have high standards for our profession...and I haven't met the professional school types that couldn't hold their own and back up their knowledge with empirical data...but I know those types are out there, just as there are those fly-by night case-study-dissertation PhDs (urgh! and I mean urgh! to those degrees...having collected all my participants by my lonesome over the past several years).

(Edit: Yes! I will defend before Star Wars Episode VII comes out on 12/18!! What a personal victory that I will no longer speak of so I don't jinx myself. Catch me a little Wookie & Luke Skywalker on the big screen in celebration. ) #StarsWarsFanSince1977

 

[ikibah]

As I understand it: A social worker, mfts, lcpc with a doctorate can call him/herself "doctor" but (of course) NOT psychologist...because their degree was not in psychology. For example, Dr. David Dia, (http://www.drdaviddia.com/Career_Profile.html) has every right to call himself a doctor...I've read some of his stuff (and hate to admit, seen him on TV), but he is a professor of social work and practices psychotherapy and behavior therapy (he's probably better at what he does than some licensed psychologists out there).

And any PsyD, PhD who has not defended his/her doctoral degree (and fulfilled those lovely requirements, like internship) in their school, clinical, counseling psychology degree, may not call him/herself doctorate until they do so. I don't see why a PsyD without a license would be any different than a PhD without a license. I'm a supporter of PsyD degrees (*from a reputable program*). I've had colleagues, supervisors, friends with PsyDs and make little distinction between the training of the two...as long as the programs of both are reputable. But this is because some of us high standards for our profession...and I haven't met the professional school types that couldn't hold their own and back up their knowledge with empirical data...but I know those types are out there, just as there are those fly-by night case-study-dissertation PhDs (urgh! and I mean urgh! to those degrees...having collected all my participants by my lonesome over the past several years!).

.

Agreed!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Unfortunately when I see a MA level provider with a doctorate it is usually a negative. There are social work doctorates for academic reasons and I would completely respect said person if I ever met one, but out here in the real world the LPC and LCSW "doctors" that I come across have been online and from questionable institutions/diploma mills.

 

[ClinicalABA]

for those who this may be of interest. I had the pleasure of speaking with somebody who is part of my state's board of psychology and I remembered that this topic has come up a number of few times on this board. Also, remembered how this post expooded. Either way I asked her what the board felt about people with master level licensure using psyd phd etc. and dr. even though they aren't licensed with that degree and she didn;t even skip a beat. She was like "What's the issue - are they calling themselves psychologists or just listing s degree they earned? She couldn't see why it was an issue.

Just an experience I thought I'd share.

This is a good example of what people should be doing- if you have a question about something, contact your local board. Regulations and board decisions vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. If you are delivering mental health services under a license that typical requires a masters degree, yet presenting yourself to the public as "doctor" or "Ph.D./Psy.D./Ed.D./etc.," there may be limitations within your jurisdiction on what you call yourself. These limitations may not be intuitive or subjectively "fair," but they may exist nonetheless. There may also be serious sanctions if you do things incorrectly. If you are considering delivering mental health services under a license that typical requires a masters degree, yet presenting yourself to the public as "doctor" or "Ph.D./Psy.D./Ed.D./etc.," contact the board that typically registers practitioner with the highest degree you want to "uses" in representing yourself. This will usually be the Board of Registration of Psychologists. Tell them exactly what you plan on doing, and they will let you know if it's a problem.