UTSW put on blast

[Splenda88]

again, you are intentionally being insulting for no reason other than it you feel like you’re scoring points on an attending.

You are correct that it is obvious that a power dynamic exists, and that it is possible for exploitation to occur in such a setting. It is not obvious to me, or a number of other users in this thread that exploitation was occurring in this specific case. But the grandstanding and potshots certainly arent helping to convince anyone.

I don't think it's potshots; I think what the poster was merely saying is that when you are removed from a situation, you are less likely to have empathy.

For me it's simple. You don't ask anyone to volunteer when there is a huge power dynamic at play. It's just doesn't seem fair.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I don't think it's potshots; I think what the poster was merely saying is that when you are removed from a situation, you are less likely to have empathy.

For me it's simple. You don't ask anyone to volunteer when there is a huge power dynamic at play. It's just doesn't seem fair.

… I mean, really saying that anyone who disagrees with him is an “attending stroking his chin” isn’t insulting? I get what you’re saying, but it’s an argument that is completely impossible to rationally debate, because then literally anything I say is going to get shot down because I’m not a current med student. And my point is that I’m not THAT removed from the situation, so perhaps the fact that I have been in his shoes recently AND have seen things on the other side should give some weight to what I’m saying rather than being dismissed out of hand.

And your second point isn’t feasible. In the last week we got asked to volunteer by our clinical director to be on a backup schedule because inevitably were going to have attendings miss time due to covid or daycare being closed or what have you this year. You’d better believe there is a power dynamic there, but the answer can’t simply be for the division chief and clinical director to be on backup 24/7 for the duration of the pandemic. And mind you, I declined to volunteer because I am one of those young attendings with kids and am already stretched to my limit, and nothing bad happened to me—so this whole idea that any request to volunteer in a power differential is exploitative is just not true. It is POSSIBLE for that to be the case, but you have to evaluate each case on what is actually happening, not just whether or not there is a power differential.

 

[Lawpy]

Wait what's the update?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Wait what's the update?

Lol I don’t think there is one beyond apparently the program sign up page coming down. One of my posts got quoted and I took offense, and now I think more or less the discussion has morphed into a general discussion about power differentials. I don’t think anyone is going to change their mind on the actual program at this point.

 

[Splenda88]

… I mean, really saying that anyone who disagrees with him is an “attending stroking his chin” isn’t insulting? I get what you’re saying, but it’s an argument that is completely impossible to rationally debate, because then literally anything I say is going to get shot down because I’m not a current med student. And my point is that I’m not THAT removed from the situation, so perhaps the fact that I have been in his shoes recently AND have seen things on the other side should give some weight to what I’m saying rather than being dismissed out of hand.

And your second point isn’t feasible. In the last week we got asked to volunteer by our clinical director to be on a backup schedule because inevitably were going to have attendings miss time due to covid or daycare being closed or what have you this year. You’d better believe there is a power dynamic there, but the answer can’t simply be for the division chief and clinical director to be on backup 24/7 for the duration of the pandemic. And mind you, I declined to volunteer because I am one of those young attendings with kids and am already stretched to my limit, and nothing bad happened to me—so this whole idea that any request to volunteer in a power differential is exploitative is just not true. It is POSSIBLE for that to be the case, but you have to evaluate each case on what is actually happening, not just whether or not there is a power differential.

Were you gonna get paid for your time?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Were you gonna get paid for your time?

Lol of course not. We're salaried.

 

[Splenda88]

Lol of course not. We're salaried.

That is strange.

Maybe they would have given you an extra day off. It just does not make sense.

 

[GoSpursGo]

That is strange.

Maybe they would have given you an extra day off. It just does not make sense.

It’s a major academic center and I’m primarily research oriented. So, I can give myself time off if I really want to, but it eventually comes back to bite me in the butt no matter what

 

[operaman]

So I generally agree with your points, and I think I probably agree with what you’re trying to say, but I do think that for legitimately oppressed groups have special insight that needs to be listened and attended to. The problem that I see is that all too frequently, the term “oppression” is thrown around any time there is any power differential. Clearly in the setting of a power differential the opportunity for abuse exists, but we need to be careful that we not reflexively call any person in a subordinate position oppressed. When we start calling literally every subordinate group oppressed, then the term loses all meaning, and it becomes easier to ignore when groups are facing true abuse and oppression.

Amen to that. I chose the word carefully because the poster I was responding to seemed to be going down the nonsensical pathway where we are all supposed to “listen” until we just agree with what he’s saying because clearly his feelings are the correct ones. He was adapting that logic to the “exploited” adult professional students so it seemed apropos to use the lexicon of the tired argument he was regurgitating.

I do still disagree with the way we “should” treat oppressed groups. Listen to them? Absolutely. Attend to them? Maybe, but only if their ideas and suggestions are sensible and well thought out. Terrible ideas that come from oppressed people remain terrible ideas.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Amen to that. I chose the word carefully because the poster I was responding to seemed to be going down the nonsensical pathway where we are all supposed to “listen” until we just agree with what he’s saying because clearly his feelings are the correct ones. He was adapting that logic to the “exploited” adult professional students so it seemed apropos to use the lexicon of the tired argument he was regurgitating.

I do still disagree with the way we “should” treat oppressed groups. Listen to them? Absolutely. Attend to them? Maybe, but only if their ideas and suggestions are sensible and well thought out. Terrible ideas that come from oppressed people remain terrible ideas.

Yeah I don’t want to get into the nuances of that. I think we are aligned on this specific case

 

[Med Ed]

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[nimbus]

In most states this is illegal unless an individual has a certification like EMT or CNA. For those with that level of clinical exposure before going to med school, that's certainly a valid option. But for most med students this is not the case and hospital liability insurance or even state law will not allow med students to do things like take ECGs or draw blood (pretty much anyone can do vitals with minimal training though, which is why UTSW said volunteers could do that).

Huh? NYU med students have been doing EKGs, LPs, inserting IVs, NGs and foleys, and drawing blood at Bellevue for at least 80 years. We called it scut. When I was there, we spun hematocrits in a centrifuge, made and examined blood smears, and ran ABGs in a dedicated house staff lab. In fourth year anesthesia and ICU rotations we were intubating and inserting central lines and alines.

 

[deleted50541]

Huh? NYU med students have been doing EKGs, LPs, inserting IVs, NGs and foleys, and drawing blood at Bellevue for at least 80 years. We called it scut. When I was there, we spun hematocrits in a centrifuge, made and examined blood smears, and ran ABGs in a dedicated house staff lab. In fourth year anesthesia and ICU rotations we were intubating and inserting central lines and alines.

I was doing the same thing as a med student in NY over 10 years. But I definitely saw an evolution away from allowing med students to do these kinds of tasks. Heck, even nurses weren't doing things I thought were routine such as blood draws, IVs, and EKGs. Every task started being delegated to "techs".

I don't know enough about the specific conditions at UTSW to comment, but I've seen similar issues at my own institution with regards to a staffing crisis that is unprecedented. As an example, the university hospital was discussing having our CT fellows staff the medical ICUs without pay. There's so many problems with that happening to even elaborate on, but thankfully it didn't happen after a lot of push back by the program and our fellows.

As someone already posted, pay bumps and retention bonuses would go a long way towards helping retain staff. Over the last year, so many people I've worked with have left for travel opportunities or taken positions at other hospitals for better pay. The administration is starting to realize that this isn't sustainable and paying exorbitant fees for travelers is not a long-term solution. It's not even a good short-term one. Some of our staff are getting pay raises now to keep them, but they've had to fight for it and I don't know if it's enough to stop the hemorrhage.

 

[Lawpy]

As someone already posted, pay bumps and retention bonuses would go a long way towards helping retain staff. Over the last year, so many people I've worked with have left for travel opportunities or taken positions at other hospitals for better pay. The administration is starting to realize that this isn't sustainable and paying exorbitant fees for travelers is not a long-term solution. It's not even a good short-term one. Some of our staff are getting pay raises now to keep them, but they've had to fight for it and I don't know if it's enough to stop the hemorrhage.

I feel like paying higher retention bonuses and pay rises is common sense and administration just chose not to do it because they’re greedy and want to cut costs (while of course paying the CEO, executives and hospital lawyers millions of dollars annually). The pandemic showed me the gross incompetence and selfishness of hospital leadership, hence my agreement with the attendings over in the other thread that complaining about physician salaries is idiotic

At the same time, it absolutely makes me less inclined to help out major hospital systems unless they completely overhaul their wage practices and start paying workers a lot more and not idiotically rely primarily on travel workers

 

[Med Ed]

I feel like paying higher retention bonuses and pay rises is common sense and administration just chose not to do it because they’re greedy and want to cut costs (while of course paying the CEO, executives and hospital lawyers millions of dollars annually). The pandemic showed me the gross incompetence and selfishness of hospital leadership, hence my agreement with the attendings over in the other thread that complaining about physician salaries is idiotic

At the same time, it absolutely makes me less inclined to help out major hospital systems unless they completely overhaul their wage practices and start paying workers a lot more and not idiotically rely primarily on travel workers

Get that MHA or MBA and then get on into the C-suite.

 

[iqe2010]

What do you mean by diploma program? There are over 2,600 nursing degree programs in the US and almost 1,000 BSN programs.

Nursing used to be essentially 100% “on the job” training prior to the 1970s. After that, nursing shifted to a traditional BS degree with the “core curriculum” being required before actual nursing instruction.

That’s what that poster meant by diploma programs.

 

[NY_Med]

Huh? NYU med students have been doing EKGs, LPs, inserting IVs, NGs and foleys, and drawing blood at Bellevue for at least 80 years. We called it scut. When I was there, we spun hematocrits in a centrifuge, made and examined blood smears, and ran ABGs in a dedicated house staff lab. In fourth year anesthesia and ICU rotations we were intubating and inserting central lines and alines.

I was doing EKG's, Foleys, and drawing blood during my gap year where I had literally no qualifications at a major academic hospital.