VA Salary and Benefits Part-Time

[Ollie123]

Dug through their documentation a bit, but figured I'd check here too. Has anyone in academic medicine arranged a part-time appt through the VA (i.e. 80% research, 20% VA clinical?).

The documents I've found are a little ambiguous about how this would work, so I can't tell if it would just follow the usual salary structure based on my % effort (i.e. GS 13 divided by 5) or if there is more wiggle room in these scenarios. Also seems very unclear how the benefits work for such an appt. Trying to do some long-term planning and debating the merits of hospital, VA or private practice for my clinical portion.

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[AcronymAllergy]

Dug through their documentation a bit, but figured I'd check here too. Has anyone in academic medicine arranged a part-time appt through the VA (i.e. 80% research, 20% VA clinical?).

The documents I've found are a little ambiguous about how this would work, so I can't tell if it would just follow the usual salary structure based on my % effort (i.e. GS 13 divided by 5) or if there is more wiggle room in these scenarios. Also seems very unclear how the benefits work for such an appt. Trying to do some long-term planning and debating the merits of hospital, VA or private practice for my clinical portion.

I know of at least one person who's done this (i.e., approximately 1 day/week VA clinical with the rest of the time being AMC, which may or may not have included occasional clinical cases), although I unfortunately have no idea as to any of the specifics you've mentioned.

But hey, at least now you know it's possible...

 

[WisNeuro]

As AA mentioned, I've seen in done, but it's rare, and it appears to be happening even more rarely. All of the people I've known with it have been in the system for a while. I don't know any early career people at anything less than .5 time in the VA.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

While on fellowship I saw this done in another dept, and it looked like a pretty sweet setup. I believe the faculty had 1-2 clinic days (out-pt, neuropsych) per wk w. the VA and then the remainder was research and other academic duties as part of the AMC. There was ongoing joint research, so I'm not sure who paid what…but it looked like a very nice setup. In regard to wiggle room I think it'd really depend on what kind of workload you can negotiate w. each piece. Given no-show rates in the VA system, I'd want to know the metrics being used to measure my work were in my favor or at least neutral. On the AMC side I'd want to make sure carving out the VA time didn't negatively impact my pursuit of promotion (as come review time the Promotion & Tenure Committee will only really care about what you did for the university/AMC).

I think it is definitely possible, but you'd serve yourself best by looking long and hard at the productivity requirements, % of time given for administrative duties (multiple positions means more meetings), and if the $/time is worth having two sets of politics/reviews/bosses/etc.

 

[Ollie123]

Thanks folks. I'm certain its possible and is actually very common here among medical providers, but less common among psychologists for whatever reason. Even though my ideal would actually be to drop it - I've been strongly encouraged to maintain some minimal level of clinical practice for purposes of tenure, so am just exploring what makes the most financial and practical sense for doing so. I think the premise is basically that it is easier to cover salary with extra clinical duties as grants ebb and flow if you are already clinically active, as opposed to having to scramble to find things at the last minute.

I'm fairly risk averse so the VA seemed a good possibility. PP is just too unstable for my tastes and our hospital admins are notoriously fickle about cutting positions. Added bonus in that it might open new avenues for funding, given I'd like to get some research going there anyways. The university benefits are pretty friggin amazing (10% salary contribution up to the 403b annual max entirely independent of what you contribute?) so I want to make sure whatever I'd give up there isn't for nothing. These sorts of things always have me questioning my decision to pursue an AMC career. Hard money gigs are so much simpler and a guaranteed 70-80k/year for life with no need to worry about any of this sounds pretty awesome sometimes...

 

[Pragma]

If the VA pays anything I would bet it is proportional to your grade and step based on % of effort.

 

[Pragma]

These sorts of things always have me questioning my decision to pursue an AMC career. Hard money gigs are so much simpler and a guaranteed 70-80k/year for life with no need to worry about any of this sounds pretty awesome sometimes...

I think the ceiling is a bit higher than that in a lot of places (hard money teaching or clinical), maybe 90-120 mid to late career.

 

[deleted343839]

These sorts of things always have me questioning my decision to pursue an AMC career. Hard money gigs are so much simpler and a guaranteed 70-80k/year for life with no need to worry about any of this sounds pretty awesome sometimes...

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for a clinical job at an AMC. Good money, good benefits, none of the anxieties that come with a soft money environment. The ideal is working in a setting where you could buy out clinical time if you did get some external funding, though you have to work for a chair who is open to that. I agree with Pragma that your salary expectations could easily exceed 80K. That seems a bit stingy for an AMC, at least in a major city.

As for the part-time VA option, I've seen this done but it's not typical. You might look to faculty at VA research centers of excellence (or whatever they're called nowadays) to see how their positions are structured, since there is usually an appointment with an academic affiliate. I've known people who do a day or half-day in the clinic while focusing primarily on research, though often their appointments are still 100% VA and the affiliate appointment is more of a formality.

 

[WisNeuro]

As for the part-time VA option, I've seen this done but it's not typical. You might look to faculty at VA research centers of excellence (or whatever they're called nowadays) to see how their positions are structured, since there is usually an appointment with an academic affiliate. I've known people who do a day or half-day in the clinic while focusing primarily on research, though often their appointments are still 100% VA and the affiliate appointment is more of a formality.

You've got some CoE's for things, like brain injury and whatnot. Also look into the MIRECC, the clinical research arm in the same area as the CoEs

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for a clinical job at an AMC. Good money, good benefits, none of the anxieties that come with a soft money environment. The ideal is working in a setting where you could buy out clinical time if you did get some external funding, though you have to work for a chair who is open to that. I agree with Pragma that your salary expectations could easily exceed 80K. That seems a bit stingy for an AMC, at least in a major city.

Advertised clinical jobs can be tricky at AMCs because they may or may not offer a tenure track option for clinicians and they most likely won't have protected research time, though buying out time is often an option. This was the route I chose, and now I get 5% here, 10% there for various consultations I do for ongoing projects. I have the option to buy out more time if I secure a large grant, though I missed on the major grant I submitted during the last cycle. Solid score, but low % funded…wah wah. If you have a prior history of securing grants/funding, then you might be able to negotiate a start-up package with a research-focused job, and then you can supplement your overhead cost w. clinical work down the road, though this wouldn't be starting year one because you should be focused on securing a grant to cover your costs ASAP. Once you get the first round of funding under your belt, then doing 10%-15% clinical can provide a buffer so you aren't a huge red mark on the dept's books if you land in between funding cycles. We have one faculty member who offers a small clinic (10%) that is in line with her research, which also allows her to keep up on her therapy and intervention skills.

As for the part-time VA option, I've seen this done but it's not typical. You might look to faculty at VA research centers of excellence (or whatever they're called nowadays)...

Great suggestion. MIRECC/CoE programs are definitely worth a consideration.

 

[Ollie123]

I think the ceiling is a bit higher than that in a lot of places (hard money teaching or clinical), maybe 90-120 mid to late career.

Yeah sorry - I was referencing starting salary for a 9 month university-side teaching appointment. That fits with the numbers I've seen most recently (for research universities anyways(, but if they are higher now that is worth noting. I don't know there is anything in the world that could get me to take a 100% clinical job in the hopes of buying out my salary down the line. I'd be miserable until I did and I'm not sure I've ever seen someone in my field successfully transition from 100% clinical to 100% research/PI on multiple R01's/etc. (what I'm shooting for right now). Might be different if my research was more applied, but its tough to leap from 9-5 therapy to MRI physics and computational modeling. They seem a great option for those pursuing research as a side interest, but not good for someone who wants it as their primary activity. I'd take a lower salary university-side with a 2-2 or lower teaching load than a higher salary AMC clinical job in a heartbeat.

Anyone know if there are documents out there that clearly delineate benefits based on hours worked for VA jobs? That is really my main question here. Not on the job market right now, just figuring out how to carve up my time in the current position and where I want to start getting a foot in the door.

 

[Pragma]

Yeah sorry - I was referencing starting salary for a 9 month university-side teaching appointment. That fits with the numbers I've seen most recently (for research universities anyways(, but if they are higher now that is worth noting. I don't know there is anything in the world that could get me to take a 100% clinical job in the hopes of buying out my salary down the line. I'd be miserable until I did and I'm not sure I've ever seen someone in my field successfully transition from 100% clinical to 100% research/PI on multiple R01's/etc. (what I'm shooting for right now). Might be different if my research was more applied, but its tough to leap from 9-5 therapy to MRI physics and computational modeling. They seem a great option for those pursuing research as a side interest, but not good for someone who wants it as their primary activity. I'd take a lower salary university-side with a 2-2 or lower teaching load than a higher salary AMC clinical job in a heartbeat.

Anyone know if there are documents out there that clearly delineate benefits based on hours worked for VA jobs? That is really my main question here. Not on the job market right now, just figuring out how to carve up my time in the current position and where I want to start getting a foot in the door.

Re: A university teaching appointment, you'd probably start around 55-85 and the ceiling would be low to mid 100s later in your career (based on what I've seen). Goes up higher if you decide to go the administrative side. Obviously there is some variability.

Re part time federal benefits: https://answers.nssc.nasa.gov/app/a...-available-for-part-time-permanent-employees?

Not a VA site but in line with what I have seen and it should generally be uniform across agencies.

 

[LM02]

This doesn't completely answer your questions, but it is a good overview (written for physicians, but pretty consistent with what I've seen for psychologists, as well)

https://www.thoracic.org/members/as...-va-affairs-advice-for-career-development.pdf

In my experience, for those who are 100% VA employed, but who want to split their time, there seem to be challenges around spanning different VA services. So if you have an appointment within a specific clinical service, it can be difficult to fill some of your time on the research service (and vice versa, if you are on the Research Service, it can be difficult to then take on time within a clinical service). It seems to me that there has to be some way around this,but I have heard my colleagues gripe about that.

Another option is to be 100% at the affiliated AMC and then take on additional effort (not full-time) at the VA. If you are able to maintain 100% at the AMC, the rest is gravy. But if you dip down, you will have your portion at the VA to fill in whatever gap you may have. Alternatively, you could be 100% clinical at the VA and then have some dedicated percent effort at the university level (over and above your VA salary). I believe either of these arrangements can be achieved with an MOU between institutions, but again, this seems to be a bit vague.

 

[Pragma]

Saw this table Ollie that might be useful for salary comparison. AAUP has good stuff too. This is just a sidebar to the VA convo


http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/15-cupa-hr/table-2.pdf

 

[WisNeuro]

VA system isn't really setup with academic types in mind. They tend to be a bit rigid on things like "tour of duty." And the red tape is. . . impressive.

That's uh....one way to put it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

And the red tape is. . . impressive.

So...just truckin' along per usual.

 

[cara susanna]

This somewhat depends on the local environment with the academic affiliate.

Lots of people where I am shift back in form in terms of FTE between the university and VA. The university, if you are tenure track, considers you full time in terms of benefits regardless of ratio. If you hold a VA grant, say a Merit Review (their equivalent to an R01), then you must be 5/8 VA. There are some oddities with colleges of medicine such that the hours you have available for work (VA = 40, always) may be asymmetrical (e.g., COM at a university might equal 55, or whatever). Thus you can have some weird FTE divisions. For us, VA grants count toward tenure. Thus, a merit plus an r01 = tenure, ir two r01s or 2 merits. On my CDA 2 (VA equivalent to a K), I did do a day of clinic every other week at the VA. I stopped doing that some time through my grant to focus on grant submissions. I do maintain a minimal level of clinic activity on the university side still. Though, I mostly view it as an irritation. It is interesting in the moment and a headache administratively.

I see the positives as access to a different clinical population (veterans . . . I have TBI grants in play, for example. . . that works well in VA population), and access to VA grant mechanisms. For example, the CDA-2 pays more than the equivalent NIH K mechanism. Funding lines are roughly equivalent these days.

There are negatives:

VA system isn't really setup with academic types in mind. They tend to be a bit rigid on things like "tour of duty." And the red tape is. . . impressive.

Regarding salary, it is purely based on when you got licensed. Get the psychology dept in the VA to board you. It will be GS 13 plus steps for years since license that you will get credit for.

Too many masters. Lots of people pulling on you.

I am severely over extended. But, this isn't a VA issue, this is a me issue. "I've got an idea. . . ." Everyone nods: "That's a great idea." Administrators "$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Do it." Rinse, repeat.


Other things to consider:
Getting Merit level grants at VA qualifies you to apply to be a research career scientist. This is the VA's version of tenure, in a sense. With this, you can get beyond Gs-13 to GS 14 and above. That's a nice bump.

The TSP system is solid.

With that said. I'm soft money. My K will run out soon, so I figure I will soon be "retired."

What happens when you "retire"? I'm considering a VA/academic medicine research career and the instability of grant funding concerns me. It'd be helpful to know what people do when grants run out.