Vasc. Surgeon filed Federal lawsuit for fraudulent billing due to computer/phone use in OR

[siednarb]

Apparently there is a vascular surgeon out in Utah who filed a federal lawsuit against 5 anesthesiologists for using their phone and laptops in the OR during cases - anyone out there in Utah know anything about this?

From the Federal brief:
"Dr. Debenham disputed a power bill over the phone, Dr. Evans shopped online and read the news, Dr. Larson planned an extensive vacation to Lake Powell, Dr. Miner watched football games with headphones in, and Dr. Nelson selected music for and coordinated disc jockey gigs. "

Links:

https://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/utah/utdce/2:2020cv00372/120354/89/0.pdf?ts=1643452692

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[DesiredMemberName?]

He’s after that False Claims Act whistleblower payday 🤑 🤑 🤑

 

[Anesthesia_Guy]

Jeez I read the title of the thread and nearly had a stroke.

 

[nimbus]

Apparently there is a vascular surgeon out in Utah who filed a federal lawsuit against 5 anesthesiologists for using their phone and laptops in the OR during cases - anyone out there in Utah know anything about this?

From the Federal brief:
"Dr. Debenham disputed a power bill over the phone, Dr. Evans shopped online and read the news, Dr. Larson planned an extensive vacation to Lake Powell, Dr. Miner watched football games with headphones in, and Dr. Nelson selected music for and coordinated disc jockey gigs. "

Links:

https://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/utah/utdce/2:2020cv00372/120354/89/0.pdf?ts=1643452692

Viral Vids and Other Distractions

coronishealth-23365134.hs-sites.com

“Dr Khoury was listening to music.”

“Dr. Khoury was taking calls from the ER/floor/office.”

“Dr. Khoury was talking about last night’s dinner.”

 

[aneftp]

They dismissed the case as expected. That’s all we need to know.

I know laws. This has been settled law (not just anesthesia) way before smartphones, tablets. I do find it a little funny how the vascular surgery first raised his concerns since 2007 (when iPhone was launched). Yes we all (well some of us) had windows phone or palm treo or blackberries. It wasn’t used often for web browsing.

But settled laws allowed healthcare workers to take personal phone calls and not violate any Medicare billing.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Do you think an anesthesiologist will ever induce any of his patients ever again?

 

[DirtDocMD]

“Dr. Anesthesiology, are you capable of walking and chewing gum, at the same time??”.

Yes.

Case dismissed.

 

[Anesthesia_Guy]

Jealousy.

 

[Beeftenderloin]

If a strong group: we won’t work with this POS.

If a weak group: look for every possible excuse to cancel/delay be obstructionists to him.

K is 5.2 and markedly hemolyzed? Sorry, no microphleb for you today.

 

[GassYous]

I may or may not be using my laptop or phone at this very minute

 

[JoelJoel84]

I’m all for using personal devices in the OR when things are stable and cruising.

But I’ve covered a few CRNAs that openly browse the web , shop, book flights etc on the large vent / machine 24” monitor, in full view of everyone. That’s what makes us look bad.

Reprimand them, but you’re being the dick of course , as “I’ve always done this , it’s fine “…

 

[nimbus]

I’m all for using personal devices in the OR when things are stable and cruising.

But I’ve covered a few CRNAs that openly browse the web , shop, book flights etc on the large vent / machine 24” monitor, in full view of everyone. That’s what makes us look bad.

Reprimand them, but you’re being the dick of course , as “I’ve always done this , it’s fine “…

Only UpToDate on the big monitor . But it’s equally distracting.

 

[IMGASMD]

I’m all for using personal devices in the OR when things are stable and cruising.

But I’ve covered a few CRNAs that openly browse the web , shop, book flights etc on the large vent / machine 24” monitor, in full view of everyone. That’s what makes us look bad.

Reprimand them, but you’re being the dick of course , as “I’ve always done this , it’s fine “…

I had a crna literally watch pga tour on his huge iPad. I’ve since then left that job, and that joker is the new chief crna….

 

[aneftp]

I text in the room. I shop on Amazon.
Heck. Me and my plastic surgeon buddy. Had game plan last fall cause we always order newest iPhone and it was 8am pre order time. I put his patient to sleep at 745am . Patient prep and ready by 755am. But pre order was 8am. The iPhone App Store website was glitchy for the first few minutes at 8am. So didn’t get the order in till 810am.

Neither one of us reported ourselves for delaying surgery for 10-15 min minutes trying to preorder new phone.

 

[Iso4ane]

Just wanted to say figured that Vac was supposed to be Vasc, but for a long time I was trying to figure out what PEDs stood for besides performance enhancing drugs.

 

[woopedazz]

"Hey Siri, how do I tell Dr Khoury that the vascular residents have better outcomes?"

"Hey Siri, how soon is too soon for a MTP?"

Etc.

If the vitals are stable and the room is cohesive and communicating fine --> I don't mind someone using a phone. I do.

 

[coffeebythelake]

https://health.usnews.com/doctors/michael-khoury-188183

Good luck doing your vascular cases on awake patients from now on.. douche!

 

[coffeebythelake]

He’s after that False Claims Act whistleblower payday 🤑 🤑 🤑

He took a gamble, made a claim in bad faith, and lost. Now all he has done is naming and vilify his coworkers. This dbag is going down. He's probably going to claim later that he is being retaliated against. Fun fact: people don't want to work with someone that talks **** about them.

 

[Dr. Rude]

He took a gamble, made a claim in bad faith, and lost. Now all he has done is naming and vilify his coworkers. This dbag is going down. He's probably going to claim later that he is being retaliated against. Fun fact: people don't want to work with someone that talks **** about them.

According to the judge’s ruling above, the case was only partially dismissed. It looks like it may still be ongoing.

 

[siednarb]

Jeez I read the title of the thread and nearly had a stroke.

Sorry for the bad grammar - I created this thread on my iPhone with gloved hands placing an a-line in an ECMO patient 😜
so my typing was not very accurate
And yes meant to type Vasc not Vac

and yes case was only partially dismissed - there is a trial date scheduled for 2024

 

[abolt18]

"Because the anesthesiologist was distracted, the patient lost blood and fluid, needed vasopressor medication to maintain blood pressure, and endured greater kidney injury."

That's rich... I also love how he often had to "remind them" to monitor their patients. Does he literally expect them to STARE at the monitor? If they have a non-invasive BP, auditory pulse-ox, and reasonable alarm parameters on the vent, you only need to look at your monitor for a few seconds, every few minutes... Not that you all don't already know this.

But in reality, I have seen some sketchy/stupid stuff from docs, crnas, and residents. Having a headphone in one ear, watching sports and YouTube. Taking personal calls and talking loudly on the phone with headphones to change flights (literally WHILE inducing and intubating a patient). And the list can continue. Some people's level of acceptable is... Embarrassing.

 

[coffeebythelake]

"Because the anesthesiologist was distracted, the patient lost blood and fluid, needed vasopressor medication to maintain blood pressure, and endured greater kidney injury."

That's rich... I also love how he often had to "remind them" to monitor their patients. Does he literally expect them to STARE at the monitor? If they have a non-invasive BP, auditory pulse-ox, and reasonable alarm parameters on the vent, you only need to look at your monitor for a few seconds, every few minutes... Not that you all don't already know this.

Honestly, this sounds like the usual "blame anesthesia" b.s. that some surgeons love to do. Usual weak surgeons. The patient bled and lost blood because of inadequate surgical hemostasis.

But in reality, I have seen some sketchy/stupid stuff from docs, crnas, and residents. Having a headphone in one ear, watching sports and YouTube. Taking personal calls and talking loudly on the phone with headphones to change flights (literally WHILE inducing and intubating a patient). And the list can continue. Some people's level of acceptable is... Embarrassing.

I see no problem with using smartphone if the patient is being adequately monitored. No one expects to be staring at the monitors or patient 100% of the time. Not in any field out there. Pilots don't stare at their instruments 100% of the time.

But I agree that perceptions matter as well.. which is a separate issue. Can't look like a clown when u expect to be taken seriously. Watch those YouTube videos with thr screen turned away from the surgeon

 

[TheLoneWolf]

I guess he will run all his cases under local or a conscious sedation nurse. No one with a spine would work with this guy for elective cases.

 

[DocMcCoy]

I guess he will run all his cases under local or a conscious sedation nurse. No one with a spine would work with this guy for elective cases.

He probably “prefers” cRNas

 

[ucladoc2b]

He probably “prefers” cRNas

He managed to unite anesthesiologists, CRNAs, and hospital admin in their disdain for him. Quite an accomplishment.

 

[nimbus]

He managed to unite anesthesiologists, CRNAs, and hospital admin in their disdain for him. Quite an accomplishment.

He was probably going to retire on his whistleblower winnings. Maybe that was his retirement plan?? 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Airway]

He was probably going to retire on his whistleblower winnings. Maybe that was his retirement plan?? 🤷🏻‍♂️

It's not a bad idea.

 

[coffeebythelake]

He was probably going to retire on his whistleblower winnings. Maybe that was his retirement plan?? 🤷🏻‍♂️

That assumes he will win. I think very unlikely.

 

[Anesthesia_Guy]

He probably “prefers” cRNas

Excellent use of what I hope were intentional lowercase/uppercase letters.

 

[Dr. Rude]

That assumes he will win. I think very unlikely.

You forget that our legal system freed OJ and has sent over 100 innocent people to death row.

Also

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Yes they are all different. But there is considerable risk in a trial.

 

[caligas]

Everyone talking tough about not working with this guy, but he would 100% slap a restraint of trade lawsuit on anyone that did so.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Everyone talking tough about not working with this guy, but he would 100% slap a restraint of trade lawsuit on anyone that did so.

not sure that's how it works my dude. just everyone independently recognizing how this guy is a dbag and don't want to work with him.
u think any of the named anesthesiologists in this lawsuit would ever want to share a room with that guy?
if i was involved i'd tell Dr Khoury to go f@$! himself

 

[Dr. Rude]

Everyone talking tough about not working with this guy, but he would 100% slap a restraint of trade lawsuit on anyone that did so.

Not clear to me. Is he still operating at the same institution that he sued and is staffed by the same anesthesiologists that have an open case with him?

 

[sevo00]

Lmao

 

[Maz777]

Everyone talking tough about not working with this guy, but he would 100% slap a restraint of trade lawsuit on anyone that did so.

He is free to hire/employ his own CRNA to do all of his cases. I would absolutely refuse to staff his cases. Just cite that it is a patient safety issue when a surgeon is watching my every move/vital sign and not paying attention to actually operating.

 

[DazedWanderer]

Apparently there is a vascular surgeon out in Utah who filed a federal lawsuit against 5 anesthesiologists for using their phone and laptops in the OR during cases - anyone out there in Utah know anything about this?

From the Federal brief:
"Dr. Debenham disputed a power bill over the phone, Dr. Evans shopped online and read the news, Dr. Larson planned an extensive vacation to Lake Powell, Dr. Miner watched football games with headphones in, and Dr. Nelson selected music for and coordinated disc jockey gigs. "

Links:

https://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/utah/utdce/2:2020cv00372/120354/89/0.pdf?ts=1643452692

Viral Vids and Other Distractions

coronishealth-23365134.hs-sites.com

I'd straight up refuse to provide anesthesia for this guy. Sounds like an incredibly hostile and standoff-ish work environment he has created. Bottom line is he is likely resentful the anesthesiologist gets to sit and relax while he is standing and scrubbed in for hours. Should have picked a different specialty schmuck.

 

[DazedWanderer]

“Dr. Anesthesiology, are you capable of walking and chewing gum, at the same time??”.

Yes.

Case dismissed.

You mean the airline pilot can eat food or have personal conversations with his co-pilot while simultaneously flying a jumbo jet? That is outrageous! He shouldn't be doing anything but staring at the instrument clusters for 7 hours straight and if he blinks there needs to be an incident report!

 

[coffeebythelake]

He is free to hire/employ his own CRNA to do all of his cases. I would absolutely refuse to staff his cases. Just cite that it is a patient safety issue when a surgeon is watching my every move/vital sign and not paying attention to actually operating.

U think any cRNA would want to work with someone like him??? Good luck

 

[Beeftenderloin]

He is free to hire/employ his own CRNA to do all of his cases. I would absolutely refuse to staff his cases. Just cite that it is a patient safety issue when a surgeon is watching my every move/vital sign and not paying attention to actually operating.

Surgeon will argue he is capable of operating while safely looking up away from the field from time to time without compromising patient care. Just make sure you record him when he says it.

 

[ranvier]

If only the profession tasked with vigilance in the OR had already examined this issue…

Effects of Intraoperative Reading on Vigilance and Workload during Anesthesia Care in an Academic Medical Center

Background. During routine cases, anesthesia providers may divert their attention away from direct patient care to read clinical (e.g., medical records) and/or nonclinical materials. The authors sought to ascertain the incidence of intraoperative reading and measure its effects on clinicians'...

pubs.asahq.org

 

[caligas]

not sure that's how it works my dude. just everyone independently recognizing how this guy is a dbag and don't want to work with him.
u think any of the named anesthesiologists in this lawsuit would ever want to share a room with that guy?
if i was involved i'd tell Dr Khoury to go f@$! himself

I’m not disagreeing with anything you say. Just know if he’s boycotted his first move is a restraint of trade lawsuit against the on staff anesthesiologists.

 

[caligas]

He is free to hire/employ his own CRNA to do all of his cases. I would absolutely refuse to staff his cases. Just cite that it is a patient safety issue when a surgeon is watching my every move/vital sign and not paying attention to actually operating.

I agree but you’ll probably have to say all that in court. This guy is obviously litigious.

It’s a real sticky situation for a group to refuse to work with a surgeon.

 

[DazedWanderer]

I’m not disagreeing with anything you say. Just know if he’s boycotted his first move is a restraint of trade lawsuit against the on staff anesthesiologists.

So if refusing to work with someone on their elective cases is grounds for a lawsuit then I'm sure half the surgeons out there are currently being litigated for the one or two anesthesiologists they refuse to work with for not rushing extubations or for canceling a few of their cases right? Yeah, or not. If someone is a malignant and litigious dingus there is absolutely no legal compulsion to offer them your elective services. The hospital could fire you or your group for not working with him if they wanted, sure. But believing he'd have any real grounds to sue you simply for refusing to put up with his bullshlt is laughable.

 

[caligas]

So if refusing to work with someone on their elective cases is grounds for a lawsuit then I'm sure half the surgeons out there are currently being litigated for the one or two anesthesiologists they refuse to work with for not rushing extubations or for canceling a few of their cases right? Yeah, or not. If someone is a malignant and litigious dingus there is absolutely no legal compulsion to offer them your elective services. The hospital could fire you or your group for not working with him if they wanted, sure. But believing he'd have any real grounds to sue you simply for refusing to put up with his bullshlt is laughable.

Not what I’m saying. Obviously there are certain docs that don’t work with others, no biggie.

But yes a group may actually be legally compelled.

If an entire anesthesia group refused to work with a specific surgeon ESPECIALLY if the surgeon is in good standing from clinical standpoint and is known to be litigious (as this surgeon is), he can and and WOULD file suit against the anesthesia group for restraint of trade. I have seen something similar with a surgeon two times in a 20 year career.

Sadly, what our emotions tell us should be right (and don’t get me wrong this guy is an epic douche and deserves to be run out of medicine) is not what plays out under contract, business and employment laws.

 

[Anesthesia_Guy]

Not clear to me. Is he still operating at the same institution that he sued and is staffed by the same anesthesiologists that have an open case with him?

Yep. Many ways to cancel a case. K+ 3.1? Cancelled. K+ 5.2? Cancelled. Pt chewing gum? Cancelled. Pt thought about food on the way in? Cancelled. You get the drift.

 

[kidthor]

Not what I’m saying. Obviously there are certain docs that don’t work with others, no biggie.

But yes a group may actually be legally compelled.

If an entire anesthesia group refused to work with a specific surgeon ESPECIALLY if the surgeon is in good standing from clinical standpoint and is known to be litigious (as this surgeon is), he can and and WOULD file suit against the anesthesia group for restraint of trade. I have seen something similar with a surgeon two times in a 20 year career.

Sadly, what our emotions tell us should be right (and don’t get me wrong this guy is an epic douche and deserves to be run out of medicine) is not what plays out under contract, business and employment laws.

That’s totally wrong. It’s not an antitrust violation to refuse to work with someone unless you’re trying to monopolize a market. That’s not the case here. You can absolutely blackball a surgeon you don’t want to work with.

 

[caligas]

That’s totally wrong. It’s not an antitrust violation to refuse to work with someone unless you’re trying to monopolize a market. That’s not the case here. You can absolutely blackball a surgeon you don’t want to work with.

what does antitrust have to do with this?

 

[Maz777]

You cannot be forced against your will to work with an unsafe surgeon. Legally, there is no way to justify that.

 

[caligas]

You cannot be forced against your will to work with an unsafe surgeon. Legally, there is no way to justify that.

Agree!!

But you CAN be sued by a surgeon if your entire group boycotts him especially if he has a clean clinical record.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Agree!!

But you CAN be sued by a surgeon if your entire group boycotts him especially if he has a clean clinical record.

Not successfully.

Considering he also sued a health system, he would have some difficulty with credentialing.