Very important article on benzodiazepine illness

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birchswing

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At this point, I'm beginning to say "benzodiazepine illness" because I don't know what else to call it. Long-term uses of benzodiazepines make people ill. I think among thinking people that is unequivocal. That's not universal among prescribing physicians unfortunately. Usually when I read about benzodiazepines in the news, the term benzodiazepine is used as if it is the name of a single drug. So color me surprised when I came across a fantastic article that pretty much mirrors my experiences with benzodiazepines and doctors:

http://www.bendbulletin.com/home/2119922-151/benzodiazepines-treat-anxiety-cause-long-term-problems

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Talk about wallowing in self pity! The people in that article have something more going on than benzodiazepine withdrawal. There's obviously an excessive inward focus.

I’ve prescribed Ativan on a number of occasions. I try to avoid prescribing it to my elderly clients, but I find it has good therapeutic effect in my younger clients. As for the issue of tolerance, there are obviously trade-offs. You get a 20-year-old kid who’s constantly freaking out, can’t even focus enough to get anything out of the dance, and what are you supposed to do? Having said that, I’ve seen some clients start to poop out on a max dose (I won't go above 6 mg) after about 10 years (only an average), and I tell them that they’ve had a good ride. It has been therapeutic. I have to weigh that with the fact that I've had some neurotics who do a 180 on a benzo and can become fully functional. I have seen the change. I have seen them dance, fully alive. I don’t like to implant the idea though that it may stop working. A healing artist does not take away hope from the diseased. I don’t like that type of negative suggestion. Because everyone is an individual. I can’t predict the functional lifespan of a person on benzodiazepine therapy. I’m not God—I’m just trying to help with the best tools we have. I tell my clients there is no reason to believe that this treatment won't continue working for them over a lifetime. That is what I learned in my training, and these cases showing up to the contrary have not been presented to me in a systematic way.

I compare it to marriage and divorce. You go into it with the best of intentions and no one knows how long it lasts. But you don’t go into it trying to guess that amount of time. And just because a person gets divorced doesn’t mean they didn’t have a good marriage. It just means the marriage “pooped out.” Divorce is a painful process, and as a few of my neurotics insist on reminding me, benzodiazepine withdrawal is a painful process as well. At that point, I often find they are too distracted with somatic complaints (again, excessive inward focus) to really benefit from dance therapy, and I tend to refer them out to someone who can manage the withdrawal with a different modality. If they can ride out that hump, I welcome them back to my practice. So far though we’re in uncharted territory. I have yet to see the long-term prognosis for neurotics treated with benzodiazepine therapy who then discontinue it. It’s up to them. I’ve always said that all we can do is help guide our patients.

I’ve gotten over two divorces myself, and I feel stronger than I ever have in my life. It doesn’t mean I don’t believe in marriage anymore (though personally I don’t think it’s for me at this stage in my life). So to the people in this article, I would ask them to remember the times the benzodiazepines were helping instead of focusing on the “break-up,” so to speak. Maybe it's not for you anymore. Divorced is hard, and I suppose we are learning more about benzodiazepine withdrawal being hard. But we shouldn't stop focusing on the times it did work, and the times ahead.
 
Talk about wallowing in self pity! The people in that article have something more going on than benzodiazepine withdrawal. There's obviously an excessive inward focus.

I’ve prescribed Ativan on a number of occasions. I try to avoid prescribing it to my elderly clients, but I find it has good therapeutic effect in my younger clients. As for the issue of tolerance, there are obviously trade-offs. You get a 20-year-old kid who’s constantly freaking out, can’t even focus enough to get anything out of the dance, and what are you supposed to do? Having said that, I’ve seen some clients start to poop out on a max dose (I won't go above 6 mg) after about 10 years (only an average), and I tell them that they’ve had a good ride. It has been therapeutic. I have to weigh that with the fact that I've had some neurotics who do a 180 on a benzo and can become fully functional. I have seen the change. I have seen them dance, fully alive. I don’t like to implant the idea though that it may stop working. A healing artist does not take away hope from the diseased. I don’t like that type of negative suggestion. Because everyone is an individual. I can’t predict the functional lifespan of a person on benzodiazepine therapy. I’m not God—I’m just trying to help with the best tools we have. I tell my clients there is no reason to believe that this treatment won't continue working for them over a lifetime. That is what I learned in my training, and these cases showing up to the contrary have not been presented to me in a systematic way.

I compare it to marriage and divorce. You go into it with the best of intentions and no one knows how long it lasts. But you don’t go into it trying to guess that amount of time. And just because a person gets divorced doesn’t mean they didn’t have a good marriage. It just means the marriage “pooped out.” Divorce is a painful process, and as a few of my neurotics insist on reminding me, benzodiazepine withdrawal is a painful process as well. At that point, I often find they are too distracted with somatic complaints (again, excessive inward focus) to really benefit from dance therapy, and I tend to refer them out to someone who can manage the withdrawal with a different modality. If they can ride out that hump, I welcome them back to my practice. So far though we’re in uncharted territory. I have yet to see the long-term prognosis for neurotics treated with benzodiazepine therapy who then discontinue it. It’s up to them. I’ve always said that all we can do is help guide our patients.

I’ve gotten over two divorces myself, and I feel stronger than I ever have in my life. It doesn’t mean I don’t believe in marriage anymore (though personally I don’t think it’s for me at this stage in my life). So to the people in this article, I would ask them to remember the times the benzodiazepines were helping instead of focusing on the “break-up,” so to speak. Maybe it's not for you anymore. Divorced is hard, and I suppose we are learning more about benzodiazepine withdrawal being hard. But we shouldn't stop focusing on the times it did work, and the times ahead.

My standard disclaimer that I’m not a doctor (I’m not) is sort of irrelevant in this case because I don’t think I am at any risk of lowering the level of understanding people may have from reading your post. I apologize if that sounds harsh, but I think this is too important to leave uncorrected.

Benzodiazepines don’t “poop out.” Benzodiazepine receptor sites change in response to being exposed to benzodiazepines. If anything poops out, it’s those receptor sites as a result of chronic exposure to benzodiazepines. I’m not sure where to begin with the rest of anything else you wrote. I don’t want to risk overstepping any boundaries as I am not a doctor, and I have been asked in the past to be careful in my posts.

I would like to comment on the effect I think you’re having on your patients, but I won’t. I will say that I think some information you have on benzodiazepines is wrong.
 
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I took zopliclone for about 6 months, in 2010, if you have questions for me, I am here.
 
I took zopliclone for about 6 months, in 2010, if you have questions for me, I am here.
zopliclone isn't a benzodiazepine but I read the it has similar effects...I just read that oops! But still if you are curious about its effects on me...
 
"Neurotics?" Who talks this way?!

I would also politely suggest that using short acting benzos (for 10 years?!) for panic or generalized anxiety disorder or "neurosis" and pretending like you dont have options besides "dance" is incompetent psychiatry. Again. I'm not sure how many of your colleagues telling you that your practices are incompetent it will take for you to actually question yourself? 10? 100? 1000? How many will it take?

Get some training in psychotherapy or refer to a therapist, dude! Psychology is your friend. Learn it. Use it.
 
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Yawn….. Let’s not be guilty of taking novopsych seriously.
 
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Yawn….. Let’s not be guilty of taking novopsych seriously.

Maybe not, but its awefully long posts just to be jokster. Regardless, i do think it important that the board not allow for the spewing/advocation of practices that clearly make psychiatry look completely dumb or out of date.
 
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Maybe not, but its awefully long posts just to be jokster. Regardless, i do think it important that the board not allow for the spewing/advocation of practices that are clearly make psychiatry look completely dumb or out of date.

we as psychiatrists do far more damaging things than dance therapy to make us look dumb.
 
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we as psychiatrists do far more damaging things than dance therapy to make us look dumb.

Yes, but when I see someone claiming to be a psychiatrist who has no idea how to treat "neurotic" patients with anything other than dancing or short acting benzos, then I obviously have to wonder about the person's professional training and competence. And we cant, ethically, allow such practices to be presented/propulatgated as proper psychiatric care in a public forum.
 
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Yes, but when I see someone claiming to be a psychiatrist who has no idea how to treat "neurotic" patients with anything other than dancing or short acting benzodiazapens, then I obviously have to wonder about the person's professional training and competence. And we cant, ethically, allow such practices to be presented/propulatgated as proper psychiatric care in a public forum.

This person is blatantly trolling (ie. completely making stuff up with the sole purpose of getting people riled up), most forums would not tolerate this sort of thing and they would have gotten banned awhile ago.
 
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This person is blatantly trolling (ie. completely making stuff up with the sole purpose of getting people riled up), most forums would not tolerate this sort of thing and they would have gotten banned awhile ago.

Yes, kinda my point. Jokster or not, if they are misrepesenting psychiatry, then they need to go.
 
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Yes, but when I see someone claiming to be a psychiatrist who has no idea how to treat "neurotic" patients with anything other than dancing or short acting benzos, then I obviously have to wonder about the person's professional training and competence. And we cant, ethically, allow such practices to be presented/propulatgated as proper psychiatric care in a public forum.

well to be honest maybe he never had decent therapy training, which is not uncommon against psychs today. And of the psychs that are actually competent in therapy, many won't/don't do it for financial reasons.
 
I've had some neurotics who do a 180 on a benzo and can become fully functional. I have seen the change. I have seen them dance, fully alive.

Ah yes, I too remember those wild and free times of dancing on benzos. There was the 'Stagger Stagger Thump (Oh No I've Smacked Headfirst Into A Wall)' the 'Floor Scramble (For F**k's Sake Somebody Help Me Up)' and one of my all time favourites the 'Oh ****, My Cigarette Just Set Someone's Jacket On Fire'. :whistle:
 
"Neurotics?" Who talks this way?!

I would also politely suggest that using short acting benzos (for 10 years?!) for panic or generalized anxiety disorder or "neurosis" and pretending like you dont have options besides "dance" is incompetent psychiatry. Again. I'm not sure how many of your colleagues telling you that your practices are incompetent it will take for you to actually question yourself? 10? 100? 1000? How many will it take?

Get some training in psychotherapy or refer to a therapist, dude! Psychology is your friend. Learn it. Use it.

If I understand your profile and posts correctly, you're a Roman Catholic psychologist.

I'm a secular psychiatrist. I offer dance therapy, talk therapy, and med management. I have very vibrant patients whom I see returning back to life every day. It's why I do what I do. I love that I can offer several modalities of treatment. I am well respected by my colleagues in the local community.

I notice that any time I make a post, you go out of your way to attack rather than discuss the content of a thread. I offered my opinion on benzodiazepines. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think I might be a bit more "real" than other practitioners, but I think that what I do is always in the benefit of the patient. If a patient is a neurotic, they're a neurotic. I am realistic that sometimes you need a sedative to take a neurotic down to the point they can engage in other modalities of treatment. Apparently there are some emerging issues with sedatives, and as a practitioner with humility, I refer patients out who believe they are no longer receiving benefit from sedatives and want to withdraw. I don't deal with a lot of somatic complaints—it doesn't help the patient. I'll admit I have little to offer them. The type of service you offer to some degree dictates the patients you attract. I attract a very vibrant clientele, and if they get to the point that they can't keep up, there are other modalities of therapy. But I think my high expectations keep my clients seeking the very best from themselves.

I'm sorry if you think I should be more touchy feely, but I am educated in psychological principles. I use them to my and my patients' benefit.
 
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If I understand your profile and posts correctly, you're a Roman Catholic psychologist.

I'm a secular psychiatrist. I offer dance therapy, talk therapy, and med management. I have very vibrant patients whom I see returning back to life every day. It's why I do what I do. I love that I can offer several modalities of treatment. I am well respected by my colleagues in the local community.

I notice that any time I make a post, you go out of your way to attack rather than discuss the content of a thread. I offered my opinion on benzodiazepines. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think I might be a bit more "real" than other practitioners, but I think that what I do is always in the benefit of the patient. If a patient is a neurotic, they're a neurotic. I am realistic that sometimes you need a sedative to take a neurotic down to the point they can engage in other modalities of treatment. Apparently there are some emerging issues with sedatives, and as a practitioner with humility, I refer patients out who believe they are no longer receiving benefit from sedatives and want to withdraw. I don't deal with a lot of somatic complaints—it doesn't help the patient. I'll admit I have little to offer them. The type of service you offer to some degree dictates the patients you attract. I attract a very vibrant clientele, and if they get to the point that they can't keep up, there are other modalities of therapy. But I think my high expectations keep my clients seeking the very best from themselves.

I'm sorry if you think I should be more touchy feely, but I am educated in psychological principles. I use them to my and my patients' benefit.

Whether I am Catholic or Buddhist or Pagan has no bearing on this issue. Poor practice is poor practice. Period. If you dont want to be accused of shoddy practice, I suggest you cease writing posts that suggest that.
 
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I think we do need to be careful in our desires to raise awareness of misuse and poor prescribing practices, that invariably do lead to problems occurring, that we don't end up demonising benzodiazepines entirely because they do still have their place and benefits. Also I often find articles such as this do a poor job of discerning between what is addiction and what is dependence, because the two are not the same.

I've referred to Xanax before as 'poison', but if I take a moment to think about it it wasn't the Xanax itself that was 'poison' to me, it was the prescribing practices surrounding it (in my case) that ended up turning it poisonous for me. In my own case Xanax actually started off as something that was extremely beneficial and that I personally feel I did need at the time. Without laying out all the gory details, I was in a right mess psychologically when I was first prescribed Xanax legitimately (as opposed to my previous shameful ventures of benzo party abuse and Doctor shopping). I needed something that could get me out of that state quickly, and with a minimum of fuss, and Xanax provided that. The plan was that I was only to be on it for a maximum of 6 weeks, basically enough time for me not to be in a crisis state, and then I was to be weaned off it. If that had been what actually ended up happening, there wouldn't have been a problem, not one that I can foresee at least. But as I've spoken about on here before that isn't what happened, I ended up going from one bad prescriber to the next, and before I knew it I was up **** creek without the proverbial paddle.

And in terms of dependence versus addiction - I have been on a low dose of Valium (10mgs daily) for around the past 18 months, I take it mainly to reduce the incidence of painful muscle spasms and allow myself some improved freedom of movement, and yes I did consider all angles very, very carefully (weighing the risk versus benefits ration to the nth degree), before accepting this as a treatment option. Am I dependent on Valium? Absolutely, if I tried to just stop taking it I would experience physical withdrawal, that goes without saying if one has been on it for over a year. But am I also addicted to Valium? The answer to that would be a resounding, "No". I don't engage in drug seeking behaviour, I don't feel any sort of psychological drive to obtain a 'high' irrespective of potential consequences, and so on, and so forth. I take a medication as prescribed, for the reason it was prescribed for. Regardless of whether that medication happens to cause physical dependence, it does not make me a 'addict'.
 
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I do think the long-term effects of BZDs (and all addictive substances) are poorly exposed. The evidence is pretty robust at this point that long-term use of BZDs in high enough amounts WILL cause brain damage and there is a question of how reversible it is. Cognitive delay, memory issues, increase in depression. All pretty strong effects of chronic tx wih BZDs.

Ceke, I do hope you're seeing a musculoskeletal specialist (a PMR doc would be ideal) about the muscle spasms. There may be some workable options out there for you.
 
I do think the long-term effects of BZDs (and all addictive substances) are poorly exposed. The evidence is pretty robust at this point that long-term use of BZDs in high enough amounts WILL cause brain damage and there is a question of how reversible it is. Cognitive delay, memory issues, increase in depression. All pretty strong effects of chronic tx wih BZDs.

Ceke, I do hope you're seeing a musculoskeletal specialist (a PMR doc would be ideal) about the muscle spasms. There may be some workable options out there for you.

Thank you very much. It's nice to hear someone just say that it's poorly exposed. There are still all these myths surrounding people who have taken benzos for a long time: what effects they would have and why a person would do it.

It's difficult to hear about the brain damage but not as difficult as it used to be (hopefully that blunting of being upset over brain damage isn't itself a result of brain damage). I've been on benzodiazepines longer than I've not (started at 14, I'm almost 32 now, they've been taken exactly as prescribed the entire time—I have severe OCD, and that applies to medication dosing, as well). Given that, it's hard to know what life off benzos would be like. I do know there are obvious issues. On the benzodiazepines, my OCD worsened tremendously as I lost more sense of time and memory and it made me feel like I had to record things more in an OCD way. And I started off with very strong OCD. It was my most present problem when I was prescribed Ativan. So, the OCD started focusing on my ability/inability to remember things and losing track of moments, ie, why didn't I remember that? And on the longer track, I don't have a great memory of much of my life post-benzo. On the other hand, my higher level thinking seems to be quite intact. Developmentally I think I am somewhat like an alcoholic who gets stuck in the time they started alcohol. Fortunately I was fairly mature at age 14. But I have lived as a disabled person at home with my parents, and I don't have a great sense of individualization. And I have had forms of anxiety post-benzo that I never did pre-benzo. So there are obvious problems caused by the benzos. For one thing, my anxiety never got better. And I got less and less functional. More and more autonomic problems. Ativan probably worked at most about 6 months in high school, but looking back on it, I don't think it really was ever helping more than hurting after that.

I've finally found a psychiatrist who knows enough to help me get off, and for the first time I trust a psychiatrist. I never thought I would say that. It's quite wonderful. She really, really gets it. I think it's because she has so many benzo patients that she's had a lot of hands-on learning. She takes the Ashton approach but then tweaks it to what works. I got to a point where I made enough changes and had success in other areas of my life that I was willing to try this. I had been to terrified to for so many years. And that's a huge problem. Both the fear of changing and not having someone who could really help you change.

For me, I know I would have gotten off sooner if I had had more knowledgable doctors on benzodiazepines who were more reassuring. I had done my research and read the horror stories of withdrawal. I wanted to go the Ashton route. The doctors I saw did not encourage me to withdraw but said if I wanted to I would just have to chip my pills. Some suggested doing a cold-turkey phenobarbital-assisted withdrawal, which is almost universally panned as a really bad idea. I knew that; they didn't.

Active encouragement and knowledge-based support would have saved me from waiting so long to to this. The psychiatrists I saw before 1) didn't care 2) didn't associate my plethora of symptoms with tolerance withdrawal and 3) didn't have the knowledge to help me.

I still feel tenuous about it, as it's early days. And I truly am not angry anymore. I almost feel liberated--hopefully not getting ahead of myself--knock on wood. But I can actually see myself doing this.

Anyhow, sorry for going on so long. But maybe it will help someone. Never underestimate the value of encouragement when it comes to this.
 
Ceke, I do hope you're seeing a musculoskeletal specialist (a PMR doc would be ideal) about the muscle spasms. There may be some workable options out there for you.

At the moment I'm not - I must admit I am being a little slack with that, and admittedly taking Valium is an easy option for me. It's not one I'm planning on doing long term though (by that I mean I'm not planning to be on Valium for the muscle spasms for like the next 10 or 20 years, or anything like that), and I am gradually trying to increase my exercise level for more core strength and flexibility in the hope that might allay some of the symptoms without the need for a benzo.
 
At the moment I'm not - I must admit I am being a little slack with that, and admittedly taking Valium is an easy option for me. It's not one I'm planning on doing long term though (by that I mean I'm not planning to be on Valium for the muscle spasms for like the next 10 or 20 years, or anything like that), and I am gradually trying to increase my exercise level for more core strength and flexibility in the hope that might allay some of the symptoms without the need for a benzo.

This is an area where we're both patients actually (spinal cord injury). Weightlifting, weighted stretches, and the inversion table have helped me tremendously. I can only do a few select yoga poses as my spine is too unstable, but that's been great as well.
 
Are people here really suggesting censorship on a public forum? That's not the answer.
 
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