WAMC: Non-Traditional Older Applicant With Highs and Lows.

[design2med]

Hey there everyone, this is my first post on SDN, so I'll try my best to paint a clear picture. As a non-trad, there's a lot to summarize here. In short, I'm 29, have a master's, and decided to switch careers from industrial design (recently worked on medical device design/development) to pursue medicine. 2023 will be my second application attempt, and I predict that a round 3 will be necessary.

I'll give a little summary of where I'm at now, and then what I plan to do next. If anyone could share their school list suggestions, it would mean a lot. Thanks for your time. @Goro and @Faha your feedback would be much appreciated.

Where I'm At Now:

1. GPA: cGPA: 3.2 and sGPA: 3.1
2. MCAT: 500, 502
3. Residence: North Carolina. Dual citizen (US and Italian)
4. Ethnicity: White, but with eastern European and middle eastern parents, for what it's worth. Trilingual
5. Schools: Bachelors at San Francisco State University (3.0 gpa), Master's at North Carolina State University (3.7 gpa), Post-Bacc at Meredith College (3.2 gpa- upward trend)
6. Clinical experience: Volunteer ~1k, Non-volunteer ~5k (Working for the past 4 years for a healthcare tech co. Did a lot of patient research, collaborated with physicians and nurses, etc.)
7. Research experience: 5 paper co-author publications. Nature Medicine x2, PNAS, Digital Biomarkers, Karger
8. Shadowing: ~50 hours in heart and vascular, cardiothoracic surgery, neonatology
9. Non-clinical volunteering: ~500hrs. Mostly with veterans and high school students.
10. Extracurricular activities: Senior level position in a health tech company for 2 years, plus another several years of work experience in other industrial design positions.
11. Honors/awards: Graduate school scholarship for healthcare design innovation. Several group/team/company awards for research and medical device design. A couple patents and other innovation/development stuff. Several research presentations/posters, etc.
12. Anything else: Went to undergrad on Pell grants and govt needs based subsidies. Financially responsible for family. Caretaker for my mom battling autoimmune disease. I only mention this to highlight that I've spent a good amount of time interacting with doctors, nurses, insurance companies, etc outside of work and volunteering. Went to military school and JROTC, very interested in the DoD's MD program at USUHS.

What's Next:

It seems to me that a 510+ MCAT will be the biggest bang for my buck. I can't really afford another formal program of any sort. If I can reach this 510+ MCAT score, what would your school list for me look like?


Academic Deficiency Notes:

When I say non-traditional, I really mean it. No one in my family is in medicine, and up until recently none of my friends were either. I discovered medicine through my career as an industrial designer, which eventually led me to healthcare/medical device design.

Up until my postbac I had never even taken a chemistry class, and somehow I managed to squeak through undergrad with one intro to biology class. Fast-forward several years, and I thought I could work full time while doing a post-bac. Man was I wrong. I quickly learned how far behind I was compared to just about everyone in my cohort. I ended up quitting my job temporarily, and was able to end on a high note with A's in the upper division courses like Orgo 2 and Biochem, but it wasn't enough to salvage the damage.

I took the MCAT twice back to back prior to completing all of my pre-reqs, but I'm confident I can get above 510 next time.

Where I'd like to go to school:

North Carolina MD school, USUHS (Departement of Defense MD school), somewhere in the Tri-State area (NY/NJ)

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[design2med]

@gyngyn Forgot to @ you, would really appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Goro]

Hey there everyone, this is my first post on SDN, so I'll try my best to paint a clear picture. As a non-trad, there's a lot to summarize here. In short, I'm 29, have a master's, and decided to switch careers from industrial design (recently worked on medical device design/development) to pursue medicine. I am on my second attempt now, and predict that a round 3 will be necessary. I'll give a little summary of where I'm at now, and then what I plan to do next. If anyone could share their school list suggestions, it would mean a lot. Thanks for your time. @Goro and @Faha your feedback would be much appreciated.

Where I'm At Now:

1. GPA: cGPA: 3.2 and sGPA: 3.1
2. MCAT: 500, 502
3. Residence: North Carolina. Dual citizen (US and Italian)
4. Ethnicity: White, but with eastern European and middle eastern parents, for what it's worth. Trilingual
5. Schools: Bachelors at San Francisco State University (3.0 gpa), Master's at North Carolina State University (3.7 gpa), Post-Bacc at Meredith College (3.2 gpa- upward trend)
6. Clinical experience: Volunteer ~1k, Non-volunteer ~5k (Working for the past 4 years for a healthcare tech co. Did a lot of patient research, collaborated with physicians and nurses, etc.)
7. Research experience: 5 paper co-author publications. Nature Medicine x2, PNAS, Digital Biomarkers, Karger
8. Shadowing: ~50 hours in heart and vascular, cardiothoracic surgery, neonatology
9. Non-clinical volunteering: ~500hrs. Mostly with veterans and high school students.
10. Extracurricular activities: Senior level position in a health tech company for 2 years, plus another several years of work experience in other industrial design positions.
11. Honors/awards: Graduate school scholarship for healthcare design innovation. Several group/team/company awards for research and medical device design. A couple patents and other innovation/development stuff. Several research presentations/posters, etc.
12. Anything else: Went to undergrad on Pell grants and govt needs based subsidies. Financially responsible for family. Caretaker for my mom battling autoimmune disease. I only mention this to highlight that I've spent a good amount of time interacting with doctors, nurses, insurance companies, etc outside of work and volunteering. Went to military school and JROTC, very interested in the DoD's MD program at USUHS.

What's Next:

It seems to me that a 510+ MCAT will be the biggest bang for my buck. I can't really afford another formal program of any sort. If I can reach this 510+ MCAT score, what would your school list for me look like?


Academic Deficiency Notes:

When I say non-traditional, I really mean it. No one in my family is in medicine, and up until recently none of my friends were either. I discovered medicine through my career as an industrial designer, which eventually led me to healthcare/medical device design.

Up until my postbac I had never even taken a chemistry class, and somehow I managed to squeak through undergrad with one intro to biology class. Fast-forward several years, and I thought I could work full time while doing a post-bac. Man was I wrong. I quickly learned how far behind I was compared to just about everyone in my cohort. I ended up quitting my job temporarily, and was able to end on a high note with A's in the upper division courses like Orgo 2 and Biochem, but it wasn't enough to salvage the damage.

I took the MCAT twice back to back prior to completing all of my pre-reqs, but I'm confident I can get above 510 next time.

Where I'd like to go to school:

North Carolina MD school, USUHS (Departement of Defense MD school), somewhere in the Tri-State area (NY/NJ)

A 3.2 in your post-bac is not a good sign. MD is likely out of the question

What was your MS in? A SMP, or a research MS?
As of right now, your chances will be best with DO schools

 

[Faha]

With your GPAs and MCAT scores of 500 and 502, MD schools are not realistic (even with a MCAT of 510 MD is unlikely). The GPA-MCAT grid for DO schools shows you have a less than 50% chance for a DO acceptance. Apply broadly to DO schools next June and include all these:
CUSOM
VCOM (all 4 schools)
WVSOM
UP-KYCOM
LUCOM
PCOM (all schools)
ACOM
WCU-COM
UIWSOM
LECOM (all schools)
LMU-DCOM
NYIT (Arkansas and Montana schools)
RVU (Montana school)
ARCOM
BCOM
KHSC-COM
Noorda-COM
ICOM
New schools in Orlando and at Dusquene

 

[design2med]

A 3.2 in your post-bac is not a good sign. MD is likely out of the question

What was your MS in? A SMP, or a research MS?
As of right now, your chances will be best with DO schools

Thank you for your time and help. I completely agree, the Post-bac GPA is my biggest regret and concern.

My masters was in Industrial Design. 3 year program, including thesis.

Theoretically speaking, how do you think my MD odds change if I get 515 or greater on my MCAT? I guess what I'm getting at is, do you think I could make up for that post-bac with a MCAT score?

 

[design2med]

With your GPAs and MCAT scores of 500 and 502, MD schools are not realistic (even with a MCAT of 510 MD is unlikely). The GPA-MCAT grid for DO schools shows you have a less than 50% chance for a DO acceptance. Apply broadly to DO schools next June and include all these:
CUSOM
VCOM (all 4 schools)
WVSOM
UP-KYCOM
LUCOM
PCOM (all schools)
ACOM
WCU-COM
UIWSOM
LECOM (all schools)
LMU-DCOM
NYIT (Arkansas and Montana schools)
RVU (Montana school)
ARCOM
BCOM
KHSC-COM
Noorda-COM
ICOM
New schools in Orlando and at Dusquene

Thanks so much for responding. How much do you think my odds improve for MD if I get above 515 on the MCAT? I'm trying to gauge whether there's any way to redeem those GPA's. I realize the chances are slim, if any at all.

 

[Faha]

Thanks so much for responding. How much do you think my odds improve for MD if I get above 515 on the MCAT? I'm trying to gauge whether there's any way to redeem those GPA's. I realize the chances are slim, if any at all.

You need to be realistic on the chances of increasing your MCAT score to 510 or higher. There has been a lot of data collected over the years on MCAT retakes and they show you have only a 4% chance of scoring higher than 510 with your initial scores of 500 and 502.

 

[design2med]

You need to be realistic on the chances of increasing your MCAT score to 510 or higher. There has been a lot of data collected over the years on MCAT retakes and they show you have only a 4% chance of scoring higher than 510 with your initial scores of 500 and 502.

Thank you, Faha. I genuinely appreciate the emphasis on being realistic. With that said, I know I can do this. If I did, do you think I would have a shot at getting an MD interview?

 

[Faha]

Thank you, Faha. I genuinely appreciate the emphasis on being realistic. With that said, I know I can do this. If I did, do you think I would have a shot at getting an MD interview?

With MCAT of 515, the GPA-MCAT grid shows you have a 1/3 chance for a MD acceptance.

 

[design2med]

With MCAT of 515, the GPA-MCAT grid shows you have a 1/3 chance for a MD acceptance.

Thanks for your help, it means a lot. Just took a look at these grids you mentioned as well, very helpful.

 

[candbgirl]

Another issue is your very low for MD GPAs. You might not even clear the auto reject settings. You have to decide if you want to be a doctor or only a MD.
Ii think I’m misunderstanding something. Have you applied before? If so could you share your list of schools and if you had any interviews.

 

[Goro]

Thank you for your time and help. I completely agree, the Post-bac GPA is my biggest regret and concern.

My masters was in Industrial Design. 3 year program, including thesis.

Theoretically speaking, how do you think my MD odds change if I get 515 or greater on my MCAT? I guess what I'm getting at is, do you think I could make up for that post-bac with a MCAT score?

A high MCAT score does NOT remediate low GPAs. It just highlights the discrepancies.

Avoid engaging in magic thinking too.

 

[Goro]

Thanks for your help, it means a lot. Just took a look at these grids you mentioned as well, very helpful.

Those grids are deceiving. They don't tell you who is a URM, or a resident of a state that heavily favors their own residents, like MS, NM, SD, ND etc OR, most importantly, those who took an SMP or post bac and did well in those..

Look, you do not have a track record of one who can handle a medical school curriculum. The post-bac GPA is the tell. No medical school is doing you any favors by admitting you when you're at risk for doing poorly.

 

[design2med]

Another issue is your very low for MD GPAs. You might not even clear the auto reject settings. You have to decide if you want to be a doctor or only a MD.
Ii think I’m misunderstanding something. Have you applied before? If so could you share your list of schools and if you had any interviews.

Thank you for your feedback @candbgirl I totally agree. I feel as though the low GPA is my biggest issue and the biggest cloud over my head. I'm confident I can get a competitive MCAT, but the sheer number of credits required to bring up my GPA seems unrealistic. I'm not sure about the auto-reject settings, I've gotten secondaries from almost every MD school I've applied for. Then again, I'm not sure if that means much.

I hear your point about what I assume is DO vs MD... I applied for both this cycle.

Here's a rundown:

• 2022 Application Cycle: Submitted primary end of August.
  • Applied to 20 MD schools, 0 interviews

• 2023 Application Cycle: MD and DO. Submitted primary, end of July.
  • Applied to 10 MD Schools
    1. USUHS
    2. UNC Chapel Hill
    3. East Carolina University
    4. Wake Forrest University
    5. Albany Medical College
    6. West Virginia University
    7. New York Medical College
    8. Texas Christian University
    9. Louisiana State University
    10. Penn State
  • Applied to 12 DO Schools
    1. Michigan State
    2. VCOM
    3. LMU DCOM
    4. Montana COM
    5. Touro
    6. ATSU
    7. OSU
    8. Rowan
    9. PCOM
    10. KYCOM
    11. NYIT
    12. ACOM

The 4 schools marked in red are the ones I've been rejected from.

Thank you for your help.

 

[candbgirl]

Thank you so much for responding. What you said about it being almost impossible to move your GPAs at this time is very true. That’s why people who do grade repair/enhancement programs have to do very well. You are trying to prove to ADCOMS that you are a different student now and quite capable of meeting the rigors of med school.
Earlier in the thread @Goro said “A 3.2 in your post-bac is not a good sign. MD is likely out of the question”. The reason for this is that you did a post bac and didn’t do any better than you did in undergrad. You have exactly the same GPA. You haven’t proved to anyone you have changed. DO schools are more forgiving and might view your post bacc as “ at least he’s consistent”. But then again maybe not since three DO schools have out right rejected you at this point. The whole med school application is so incredibly hard and seems like a crap shoot most days.
That’s why people have told you to be realistic in the process.
Good luck as this cycle plays out.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

How supportive has your prehealth advisor at your postbac program been?

 

[design2med]

A high MCAT score does NOT remediate low GPAs. It just highlights the discrepancies.

Avoid engaging in magic thinking too.

Thank you for all of your feedback and help.

One persons idea of magic is another persons attainable goal. To each their own.

 

[design2med]

Those grids are deceiving. They don't tell you who is a URM, or a resident of a state that heavily favors their own residents, like MS, NM, SD, ND etc OR, most importantly, those who took an SMP or post bac and did well in those..

Look, you do not have a track record of one who can handle a medical school curriculum. The post-bac GPA is the tell. No medical school is doing you any favors by admitting you when you're at risk for doing poorly.

I completely agree. I understand why I haven’t gotten in yet. My goal is to push forward, and show that I am capable of handling the curriculum. Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[Faha]

I completely agree. I understand why I haven’t gotten in yet. My goal is to push forward, and show that I am capable of handling the curriculum. Thanks again for the feedback.

Add the other DO schools that I suggested. October is not late to apply to more schools.

 

[design2med]

Thank you so much for responding. What you said about it being almost impossible to move your GPAs at this time is very true. That’s why people who do grade repair/enhancement programs have to do very well. You are trying to prove to ADCOMS that you are a different student now and quite capable of meeting the rigors of med school.
Earlier in the thread @Goro said “A 3.2 in your post-bac is not a good sign. MD is likely out of the question”. The reason for this is that you did a post bac and didn’t do any better than you did in undergrad. You have exactly the same GPA. You haven’t proved to anyone you have changed. DO schools are more forgiving and might view your post bacc as “ at least he’s consistent”. But then again maybe not since three DO schools have out right rejected you at this point. The whole med school application is so incredibly hard and seems like a crap shoot most days.
That’s why people have told you to be realistic in the process.
Good luck as this cycle plays out.

This all makes total sense, thank you for the breakdown and good luck wishes. I appreciate all the feedback, it helps pull back the curtain a bit on the daunting application process, and helps people put the right foot forward. Take care!

 

[design2med]

Add the other DO schools that I suggested. October is not late to apply to more schools.

Thank you, I’m on it. Will have those submitted in the next couple of days.