We didn't hire a guy where I work today

[novawildcat]

who was qualified for the job because he failed his health screening test for insurance when the doctor found that he had cancer. As a result, the insurance company we have refuses to insure him because he has a "pre-existing" condition. It is company policy that all workers must be insured under the company's health insurance plan, thus we were not able to hire the guy. Imagine being hit with the double whammy of getting rejected a job offer and also finding out that you have cancer at the same time. It is a catch 22-the guy needs a job to get health insurance, but no health insurance will cover him because of his "pre-existing condition" thus he will be unable to get a job at many places. Only in America can insurance companies get away with this kind of stuff.

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[Lshapley]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Dienekes]

who was qualified for the job because he failed his health screening test for insurance when the doctor found that he had cancer. As a result, the insurance company we have refuses to insure him because he has a "pre-existing" condition. It is company policy that all workers must be insured under the company's health insurance plan, thus we were not able to hire the guy. Imagine being hit with the double whammy of getting rejected a job offer and also finding out that you have cancer at the same time. It is a catch 22-the guy needs a job to get health insurance, but no health insurance will cover him because of his "pre-existing condition" thus he will be unable to get a job at many places. Only in America can insurance companies get away with this kind of stuff.

That sucks. Oh well, back to lunch.

 

[rpm]

Happens quite often with healthcare costs these days.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Bu...but socialized medicine will kill us all!

And..um..and Ron Paul...um...money....privatized....corrupt government...

/sarcasm

 

[Drogba]

And people still argue universal healthcare is the biggest CHALLENGE medical professionals will have to face in the future...

 

[Dienekes]

And people still argue universal healthcare is the biggest CHALLENGE medical professionals will have to face in the future...

Yes, but I see no justifiable reason to screw myself out of a good career.....that is why socialized medicine is a problem, not a solution.

 

[postbacker]

who was qualified for the job because he failed his health screening test for insurance when the doctor found that he had cancer. As a result, the insurance company we have refuses to insure him because he has a "pre-existing" condition. It is company policy that all workers must be insured under the company's health insurance plan, thus we were not able to hire the guy. Imagine being hit with the double whammy of getting rejected a job offer and also finding out that you have cancer at the same time. It is a catch 22-the guy needs a job to get health insurance, but no health insurance will cover him because of his "pre-existing condition" thus he will be unable to get a job at many places. Only in America can insurance companies get away with this kind of stuff.

Per your bolded statement - does this guy have a current job with medical insurance, or is he unemployed? If he has insurance through another job and qualifies for COBRA coverage, he can eventually get covered by your company with no pre-existing conditions...if he was unemployed with no insurance, he made a very poor choice - he took a huge risk, and it has turned against him...tough for him, but that is the way it goes...

Everyone needs contiuous insurance coverage...the "gaps" in coverage are where people fall through the cracks...and most of the time, no matter how screwed up the system is, the ultimate fault is with the uninsured individual...

 

[Dienekes]

no matter how screwed up the system is, the ultimate fault is with the uninsured individual...

To quote Stan Smith from American Dad: "Thank you! That would have sounded horrible coming out of my mouth."

 

[postbacker]

To quote Stan Smith from American Dad: "Thank you! That would have sounded horrible coming out of my mouth."

Hey, it is a harsh assessment, but I believe in individual responsibility and self reliance...to be without continuous health insurance coverage is foolish...

 

[patrickd223]

There are some jobs, particularly gov. jobs that will insure you despite of pre-existing conditions. My dad had to do this after he had a heart attack.

 

[rpm]

Everyone needs contiuous insurance coverage...the "gaps" in coverage are where people fall through the cracks...and most of the time, no matter how screwed up the system is, the ultimate fault is with the uninsured individual...

That's a very bad assumption to make that everyone who can't get health insurance on their own should be at fault and shows how little you understand about the state of healthcare in our country.

 

[Lshapley]

What happens when this hypothetical person is in their fifties? It becomes harder for them to get a job because someone younger will do the same work more cheaply and they are too young for medicare? Personally I believe that joining work with healhcare was a mistake from the beginning. It just isn't easy for everyone to go get a job, especially one with benefits.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

I think it's funny that people are saying things like "Well, he could have jsut gotten Cobra.." (highly expensive, especially for someone out of work), or "Well, it's his fault he wasn't insured", or my personal favorite "Socialised medicine would ruin my career" (despite the fact that cancer is ruining this guy's, and many other's, LIVES).

Hey, here's a thought. We can 1) stop bitching about paying taxes, as we already pay one of the lowest rates in the world; 2) Pay less than we would through private insurers every month, and thus cover everyone for basic health needs (not lipo or other non-reconstructive cosmetics); 3) Realise that doctors in socialised systems aren't exactly struggling.

 

[postbacker]

What happens when this hypothetical person is in their fifties? It becomes harder for them to get a job because someone younger will do the same work more cheaply and they are too young for medicare? Personally I believe that joining work with healhcare was a mistake from the beginning. It just isn't easy for everyone to go get a job, especially one with benefits.

This is one of the biggest flaws of employment based insurance, I agree...I just don't have any faith in the federal government operating the health insurance industry...

I would support government oversight to prevent insurance companies from "cherry picking" applicants and creating small pools...I believe that everyone deserves to be insured - not talking about "free" insurance - but if you are able and willing to pay, then I would be for requiring insurance companies to provide coverage to all comers...whether that is through someone's workplace or private insurance...

 

[Magnolia85]

That's a very bad assumption to make that everyone who can't get health insurance on their own should be at fault and shows how little you understand about the state of healthcare in our country.

Right on. If you think that the current system provides the infrastructure for everyone to be served, I suggest you educate yourself....

 

[postbacker]

I think it's funny that people are saying things like "Well, he could have jsut gotten Cobra.." (highly expensive, especially for someone out of work), or "Well, it's his fault he wasn't insured", or my personal favorite "Socialised medicine would ruin my career" (despite the fact that cancer is ruining this guy's, and many other's, LIVES).

Hey, here's a thought. We can 1) stop bitching about paying taxes, as we already pay one of the lowest rates in the world; 2) Pay less than we would through private insurers every month, and thus cover everyone for basic health needs (not lipo or other non-reconstructive cosmetics); 3) Realise that doctors in socialised systems aren't exactly struggling.

This is not a discussion about the merits of socialized medicine - we are discussing how people get their insurance.

COBRA is not a person's only option - there are private plans...people need to be insured continuously...it is an individual's responsibility, not the government, to provide that continuous insurance...

 

[postbacker]

Right on. If you think that the current system provides the infrastructure for everyone to be served, I suggest you educate yourself....

The poor and disabled have medicaid and SCHIP for their kids...over 65 everyone gets Medicare...everyone in between either gets it through their employment or obtain it privately...sure, some people fall through the cracks, but many people choose to not be insured, and it is a poor choice...

 

[mikkey]

Do you realize that Americans may be paying amongst the lowest taxes in the world, but that your health care cost you twice as much as everybody elses? There is so much money waste due to private, for profit insurance that socialized medicine is actually starting to look good compared to this delirious system...Having lived in Canada and the US as well as having a double Canadian-French citizenship, I see avantages and disavantages to both socialized and private systems, but economically the American health system promotes reliance on huge companies, which offer health benefits and hence little individual enterprises have nearly disappeared. France seems to have the best system at the moment: universal health care, with bonus payments for things like a more renown surgeon or a private room. That way, doctors get the money they want, and patients get the care they need and technological advances remain high.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

This is not a discussion about the merits of socialized medicine - we are discussing how people get their insurance.

COBRA is not a person's only option - there are private plans...people need to be insured continuously...it is an individual's responsibility, not the government, to provide that continuous insurance...

The private plans are the PROBLEM! We are the only western nation that still allows private companies to monopolize the market and rape consumers who are locked into high rate plans or selective coverage plans.

GG

 

[45408]

Do you realize that Americans may be paying amongst the lowest taxes in the world, but that your health care cost you twice as much as everybody elses? There is so much money waste due to private, for profit insurance that socialized medicine is actually starting to look good compared to this delirious system...

I assure you, the money is wasted in plenty of other places. It should be a huge red flag to you that the US gov't is already spending more per capita on health care than countries like the UK. It would NOT become cheaper if they began paying for even more people and procedures.

 

[Lshapley]

This is one of the biggest flaws of employment based insurance, I agree...I just don't have any faith in the federal government operating the health insurance industry...

I would support government oversight to prevent insurance companies from "cherry picking" applicants and creating small pools...I believe that everyone deserves to be insured - not talking about "free" insurance - but if you are able and willing to pay, then I would be for requiring insurance companies to provide coverage to all comers...whether that is through someone's workplace or private insurance...

C'mon, postbacker, let's go out and fix it! We'd probably make a good team, judging from a few past threads where we worked together answering questions. What do you say?

 

[UCLA KoreanDude]

did you know that some med schools don't accept you if you some pre-existing conditions that might cost them some money. Think about that too

 

[postbacker]

C'mon, postbacker, let's go out and fix it! We'd probably make a good team, judging from a few past threads where we worked together answering questions. What do you say?

I definitely like the way you think!

I am a little older than most of the pre-meds on these boards, and I am dismayed how many of them have "drunk the liberal Kool Aid" on this stuff...we are turning the US into a "nanny state" where everything is "free" and people don't have to take any responsibility for themselves...sounds great, but ain't nothing free about it...

I do think that insurance companies need to be forced to insure everybody, and that there should be more oversight of these companies...I don't have any problem with subsidized insurance for the poor...but I have a big problem with "free" insurance or anything for anybody...

The joke about the "free" insurance plans (medicaid and SCHIP) is that the people who are eligible for these programs don't even bother to sign up for them...the government literally beats the bushes looking for these folks...so many of the "uninsured" Americans we hear about in the news media are uninsured by choice...or maybe it is ignorance...

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

I definitely like the way you think!

I am a little older than most of the pre-meds on these boards, and I am dismayed how many of them have "drunk the liberal Kool Aid" on this stuff...we are turning the US into a "nanny state" where everything is "free" and people don't have to take any responsibility for themselves...sounds great, but ain't nothing free about it...

I do think that insurance companies need to be forced to insure everybody, and that there should be more oversight of these companies...I don't have any problem with subsidized insurance for the poor...but I have a big problem with "free" insurance or anything for anybody...

The joke about the "free" insurance plans (medicaid and SCHIP) is that the people who are eligible for these programs don't even bother to sign up for them...the government literally beats the bushes looking for these folks...so many of the "uninsured" Americans we hear about in the news media are uninsured by choice...or maybe it is ignorance...

Who said anything about free? Every person I've ever heard talk about socialised health has always mentioned raising taxes in the same breath. How is it a nanny state if the people are telling the government "Here, we will give you more money if you will give us complete access to adequate health care and eliminate the need for a profit-centric health system" ?

 

[CultureDoc]

Imagine being hit with the double whammy of getting rejected a job offer and also finding out that you have cancer at the same time. quote]

That is the worst part of this whole mess. I can't imagine finding out you have cancer through a routine health screening for a new job. You would go from being on top of the world because you were just offered a job to being in the absolute depths of despair because (a) you have cancer (b) you can't have the job (c) you have no insurance. Ouch. I don't care if it is your fault that you have no insurance . . . I still sympathize. A lot. We all try to dodge bullets in some way or another, and it sucks to hear of someone who's caught one.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

...if he was unemployed with no insurance, he made a very poor choice - he took a huge risk, and it has turned against him...tough for him, but that is the way it goes...

Everyone needs contiuous insurance coverage...the "gaps" in coverage are where people fall through the cracks...and most of the time, no matter how screwed up the system is, the ultimate fault is with the uninsured individual...

Yeah, because no one has even LOST THERI JOB FROM CUTBACKS!! [sarcasm, if it was obvious enough]. But gee, that must be his fault too. What an idiot, CHOOSING get fired from a job. What kind of ***** would do that just so he wouldn't have health insurance.

Next time, think.

 

[Phoenix.]

I do think that insurance companies need to be forced to insure everybody, and that there should be more oversight of these companies...

I'm SO with you on this one. I've been feeling like Insurance Companies = Big Brother. Someone needs to get them under control. Way too much power has been passed into their hands, and it has corrupted absolutely.

 

[Lshapley]

I come from the ranks of people who tend to receive these programs, and this is what I have learned. There is a group of people who have learned to game the system and take advantage wherever possible. These people are mostly mired in generational poverty and have learned these skills, and they are skills for sure. Then there are the people who fall on hard times and need these services. They tend not to know about them and get screwed as a result. Anyway, that is my two cents.

Anyway, I was a dancer back in the day and here is an interesting story. It actually gives a little insight into why there has been such an alternative health boom here as well as giving a very sad story about someone not getting proper healthcare. Check it out.

http://danceinsider.com/f2007/f1018_1.html

 

[postbacker]

Yeah, because no one has even LOST THERI JOB FROM CUTBACKS!! [sarcasm, if it was obvious enough]. But gee, that must be his fault too. What an idiot, CHOOSING get fired from a job. What kind of ***** would do that just so he wouldn't have health insurance.

Next time, think.

So quantify the number of people who have lost their insurance through getting fired, etc., and suggest a way to help them with some sort of gap coverage (and COBRA would help these people in many cases) without junking the entire system for everybody else...the problem with this debate is that of the 300+ million people in the US, the vast majority have insurance (and polls show that most of them are satisified with their current health insurance, coverages, and plans)...we have the "tail wagging the dog" when we propose to throw out the system that is working for the majority of people to take care of the minority, most of whom are making poor choices, notwithstanding your example of people who unexpectedly lose their job and insurance...

Another group of people who could use some help - folks who work at more than one job (part time jobs) but do not qualify for benefits from any job...this is mainly the working poor...maybe the qualifying income levels for medicaid should be increased to include these folks (don't know the numbers myself)...

The point being that we should address the needs of the specific groups of people who need help, not throw out the entire system which is exactly where Hillary and Co. will take this country...

 

[ielman]

Im with vnezony...im the farthest thing from a liberal but as an aspiring physician if you don't care for the general good of all then you are just fooling yourself into going into medicine...you should be working with the HMO'S and their shameful and inefficient bureaucracy

 

[postbacker]

Who said anything about free? Every person I've ever heard talk about socialised health has always mentioned raising taxes in the same breath. How is it a nanny state if the people are telling the government "Here, we will give you more money if you will give us complete access to adequate health care and eliminate the need for a profit-centric health system" ?

Don't be naive - these government insurance programs are most definitely "free" or nearly so to people who do not pay anything into the system much less pay their "fair share" of the cost of the services they receive.

And for the people arguing that we do not pay enough taxes in this country, get better informed...simply looking at the marginal fed rates on income taxes is only part of the picture...most states have income taxes, as do some localities...plus we all pay sales taxes, gasoline taxes, excise taxes, property taxes...and when you put your money at risk in an investment, the government takes a "cut" in the form of capital gains taxes on the gains...and when you die, your estate gets taxed...I don't have the exact figure, but the actual tax rate for all the taxes we pay on every dollar that passes through our hands is closer to or in excess of 50 percent...

 

[mfpullen]

Don't be naive - these government insurance programs are most definitely "free" or nearly so to people who do not pay anything into the system much less pay their "fair share" of the cost of the services they receive.

The number of people not paying and still using the system <<<< people paying and using the system. Considering the cost of drugs and supplies would be subisdised, and also considering government health is not a profit venture, I fail to see what your point is here.

And for the people arguing that we do not pay enough taxes in this country, get better informed...simply looking at the marginal fed rates on income taxes is only part of the picture...most states have income taxes, as do some localities...plus we all pay sales taxes, gasoline taxes, excise taxes, property taxes...and when you put your money at risk in an investment, the government takes a "cut" in the form of capital gains taxes on the gains...and when you die, your estate gets taxed...I don't have the exact figure, but the actual tax rate for all the taxes we pay on every dollar that passes through our hands is closer to or in excess of 50 percent...

Hey, guess what. We pay those taxes in the UK, too, and yet you guys STILL pay much less than us, and god, if only you knew what they pay in Sweden (best healthcare in Europe, btw, in my opinion. seen it firsthand).

The fact of the matter is, you guys pay somewhere between 50% and 75% of what UK and other parts of Western Europe pay. You also pay much more per capita on health care to private companies, and yet several million of your citizens are without basic medical care. Seems a bit daft to me, to spend so much on healthcare you aren't even receiving...

 

[postbacker]

The number of people not paying and still using the system <<<< people paying and using the system. Considering the cost of drugs and supplies would be subisdised, and also considering government health is not a profit venture, I fail to see what your point is here.



Hey, guess what. We pay those taxes in the UK, too, and yet you guys STILL pay much less than us, and god, if only you knew what they pay in Sweden (best healthcare in Europe, btw, in my opinion. seen it firsthand).

The fact of the matter is, you guys pay somewhere between 50% and 75% of what UK and other parts of Western Europe pay. You also pay much more per capita on health care to private companies, and yet several million of your citizens are without basic medical care. Seems a bit daft to me, to spend so much on healthcare you aren't even receiving...

Why do you care about this US debate?...sounds like you are happy with your high tax system, so good for you! And can I assume that your health care system is perfect, too? No waiting for procedures?

Just the other day we read in the US news media that people in England are resorting to pulling their own teeth because of the severe shortage of dentists - that sounds like a swell system to me...maybe we should ask the US government to double our taxes and provide everyone with enough string to yank out their own teeth?

 

[ChimpanzeeMinky]

This is not a discussion about the merits of socialized medicine - we are discussing how people get their insurance.

COBRA is not a person's only option - there are private plans...people need to be insured continuously...it is an individual's responsibility, not the government, to provide that continuous insurance...

I know this post is a bit old in the thread right now, but seeing as how nobody addressed the apparent naivete here, I decided to.

Apparently you've never been in a situation before where you were unable to secure employment for an extended period of time and had to consider purchasing insurance yourself. If you had, you'd realize that private insurance, unsubsidized by an employer, is cost prohibitive even to single, healthy people that are not highly compensated, let alone those who are unemployed and need coverage for a family.

It's fine to say it's an individual's responsibility. But just know that that statement is no different from saying that it is ok for some individuals to have no insurance.

 

[rpm]

Why do you care about this US debate?...sounds like you are happy with your high tax system, so good for you! And can I assume that your health care system is perfect, too? No waiting for procedures?

Just the other day we read in the US news media that people in England are resorting to pulling their own teeth because of the severe shortage of dentists - that sounds like a swell system to me...maybe we should ask the US government to double our taxes and provide everyone with enough string to yank out their own teeth?

One doesn't have to be from the US to notice and comment about how much of a failure it is.

And let's see; between the option of waiting a couple of months to get a surgery or not getting the surgery at all b/c you can't get health insurance, what would one choose?

 

[mfpullen]

Why do you care about this US debate?...sounds like you are happy with your high tax system, so good for you! And can I assume that your health care system is perfect, too? No waiting for procedures?

Who says I'm a native Briton? People can't have family there and visit often/live there for a time? Awesome ad hominem attacks, though.

ust the other day we read in the US news media that people in England are resorting to pulling their own teeth because of the severe shortage of dentists - that sounds like a swell system to me...maybe we should ask the US government to double our taxes and provide everyone with enough string to yank out their own teeth?

It would be awesome if you would take the time to actually read articles rather than take the "ticker" form BSNBC and Faux News feed you. Here are some chioce quotes:

"Overall, six percent of patients had resorted to self-treatment"

"More typically, a lack of publicly-funded dentists means that growing numbers go private"

"It appears many are being forced to go private because they don't want to lose their current trusted and respected dentist or because they just can't find a local NHS dentist."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071015/wl_uk_afp/britainhealthdentists

So, the problem is that there is a lack of funding, not a lack of dentists. Parliament is currently debating legislation to increase the dental portion of NHS. Your whole straw-man argument that public funding = lack of doctors is ridiculous. Lack of funding for the program does indeed reduce the numbers of doctors hired. The system itself, however, does not deter individuals from going into medicine/dentistry.

Good game, though.

 

[mfpullen]

And let's see; between the option of waiting a couple of months to get a surgery or not getting the surgery at all b/c you can't get health insurance, what would one choose?

 

[postbacker]

Who says I'm a native Briton? People can't have family there and visit often/live there for a time? Awesome ad hominem attacks, though.



It would be awesome if you would take the time to actually read articles rather than take the "ticker" form BSNBC and Faux News feed you. Here are some chioce quotes:

"Overall, six percent of patients had resorted to self-treatment"

"More typically, a lack of publicly-funded dentists means that growing numbers go private"

"It appears many are being forced to go private because they don't want to lose their current trusted and respected dentist or because they just can't find a local NHS dentist."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071015/wl_uk_afp/britainhealthdentists

So, the problem is that there is a lack of funding, not a lack of dentists. Parliament is currently debating legislation to increase the dental portion of NHS. Your whole straw-man argument that public funding = lack of doctors is ridiculous. Lack of funding for the program does indeed reduce the numbers of doctors hired. The system itself, however, does not deter individuals from going into medicine/dentistry.

Good game, though.

Dude, you said "WE pay those taxes in the UK" so EXCUUUUUSE ME for making such an outrageous assumption....jeesh...

Oh, and umm, there is a lack of dentists, CAUSED by the lack of funding...and poor reimbursements for dentists...

 

[Arjunsi]

Your whole straw-man argument that public funding = lack of doctors is ridiculous. dentistry.

You should have paid more attention to your formal fallacy definitions in philosophy class. His argument might not have been based on all the facts, but it certainly wasn't a straw man.

 

[mfpullen]

Oh, and umm, there is a lack of dentists, CAUSED by the lack of funding...and poor reimbursements for dentists...

Which is exactly what I just told you. It's a matter of Parliament kicking in a few million more pounds and cutting back spending on, oh I don't know, foreign wars? Hell, I bet the USA could fund socialised health care for the entire 300 million+ population just by pulling out of a certain sovereign nation currently trying to reclaim it's independence...

 

[mfpullen]

You should have paid more attention to your formal fallacy definitions in philosophy class. His argument wasn't based on all the facts, but it certainly wasn't a straw man.

Touche' I stand corrected. It clearly didn't mean what I thought it meant, hehe. Happens to the best of us =)

 

[Arjunsi]

Touche' I stand corrected. It clearly didn't mean what I thought it meant, hehe. Happens to the best of us =)

Good man. You make up for it by having the better argument though, IMO.

 

[Abilene85]

Could someone correct me if I am wrong?

It is my understanding that a major reason the US spends so much on healthcare is that the fairly large uninsured population tends not to seek medical attention until the last minute. So instead of spending a few hundred on preventative measures, the final bill is tens of thousands of dollars spent on a week long hospital stay and surgery.

 

[postbacker]

Could someone correct me if I am wrong?

It is my understanding that a major reason the US spends so much on healthcare is that the fairly large uninsured population tends not to seek medical attention until the last minute. So instead of spending a few hundred on preventative measures, the final bill is tens of thousands of dollars spent on a week long hospital stay and surgery.

We have a huge problem with people in the US not taking good care of themselves - eating themselves into obesity, developing diabetes, heart disease, etc - and when they have a problem, they show up at the emergency room because they don't have a regular doctor...many of these uninsured poor are fully eligible for medicaid, but they don't even accept enough responsibility for themselves to go down and sign up for the program...somehow preventive medicine needs to get emphasized better in the US, and that is a 2 way street meaning that individuals need to take more responsibility for their own health...

 

[mfpullen]

Could someone correct me if I am wrong?

It is my understanding that a major reason the US spends so much on healthcare is that the fairly large uninsured population tends not to seek medical attention until the last minute. So instead of spending a few hundred on preventative measures, the final bill is tens of thousands of dollars spent on a week long hospital stay and surgery.

That would be incorrect. We spend such a large amount on health care as a result of poorly or unsubsidised prescriptions costs for Medicaid/Medicare recipients and insurance companies double or triple billing government insurance. Pharma companies routinely set aside a certain portion of their profit to settle lawsuits brought against them by the US government, allowing them to pay fines and still make a large profit.*

Info courtesy of Dr. Marcia Angell, former editor of the NEJM.

 

[Abilene85]

meaning that individuals need to take more responsibility for their own health...

We don't do that here. We're always totally innocent. McDonald's made me do it.

 

[rpm]

many of these uninsured poor are fully eligible for medicaid

Really? Want to link to the study that points that out or are you just spewing out random thoughts again?

individuals need to take more responsibility for their own health...

About the only thing we agree on.

 

[F12]

Do you realize that Americans may be paying amongst the lowest taxes in the world, but that your health care cost you twice as much as everybody elses? There is so much money waste due to private, for profit insurance that socialized medicine is actually starting to look good compared to this delirious system...Having lived in Canada and the US as well as having a double Canadian-French citizenship, I see avantages and disavantages to both socialized and private systems, but economically the American health system promotes reliance on huge companies, which offer health benefits and hence little individual enterprises have nearly disappeared. France seems to have the best system at the moment: universal health care, with bonus payments for things like a more renown surgeon or a private room. That way, doctors get the money they want, and patients get the care they need and technological advances remain high.

The US has one of the lowest tax rates in the world? For-profit insurance is more wasteful than non-profit, e.g. socialized insurance?

What the hell are you smoking?

 

[mfpullen]

What the hell are you smoking?

Maybe he's smoking the numerous studies and articles that absolutely prove his point...