What did you people do to the premed/med people on here?

[MedicJ]

Seriously. Tons of paramedic hate on this forum. Who did it?

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[NiteOwl]

Seriously. Tons of paramedic hate on this forum. Who did it?

I don't come to this forum very often so I don't see the hate. I don't prod either of them. I'm an EMT student and am still sort of pre-med (graduated but still have to take a few prereqs), so I can't say really say anything to either side.

 

[greytmedic]

Are you saying there are a lot of paramedics who hate premeds, or a lot of premeds who hate paramedics?

 

[leviathan]

Seriously. Tons of paramedic hate on this forum. Who did it?

Can you expand on this a bit for us?

 

[jbar]

I would assume most EMTs and medics avoid this board for the following reasons:

1: It's not that active, the EMS forum gets like a post a day.

2: Most of the questions tend to be along the lines of "should I become an EMT to get into med school" or "help me find a class/job in X." Not much discussion of interesting calls, issues etc.

3. There are lots of other sites geared more towards EMS, so they have more readers. This site tends to get pre meds/ med students/PAs etc who also happen to be EMTs/medics.

I would like to suggest that those who haven't should wander over to the Emergency Medicine Residents forum. Lots of good info for those in EMS since they handle the same patients and many of the same issues.

 

[MedicJ]

I guess I was slacking with my discription.
I have been a paramedic for 8 years and am now entering my last year of pre-med. Almost every time I post in the pre-med areas and other areas..... I keep getting negative remarks about paramedics as ambulance drivers, hated by nurses and doctors(not a problem I have ever had..guess I'm just hella cool?) and other similiar responses.
It is almost like some people go into automatic attack mode. I know it is a general misconception that paramedics only haul the dead and have no skills...... but I have delivered babies, intubated, defibrillated and medicated probably hundreds in my 8 short years. Even if the thread subject is not dealing with paramedic skills, as soon as I slightly mention the time I have spent as a paramedic...someone goes in for the attack.
It's probably the typical nurse vs. medic battle...but I was hoping to find medical and pre-med students to be more mature and realistic without the high school bitterness.
I just don't get it. It is hard to fathom that people wishing to enter a profession based upon being true humanatarians would launch such attacks and negativity on fellow healthcare workers.
I have about 128 college credit hours and majored in Chemistry. I DECIDED to be a paramedic and enjoyed every minute of it. I have no regrets. Actually, I have taught ACLS classes to medical students. I am boggled by the need to cast degrading comments to other health care workers.
Its just sad.
I was wondering if any paramedics on here were approaching the medical or pre-med students with the paragawd complex and causing them to harbor ill feelings about our honorable profession. That is basically what I was asking in my post.

 

[greytmedic]

When I was a paramedic I generally walked up to every premed and kicked them in the family jewels for no particular reason or pushed them down and laughed at them. That could have something to do with it.

 

[blackadder]

I am boggled by the need to cast degrading comments to other health care workers.
Its just sad.

I ain't no medic--just a lowly intermediate--but take here's some longwinded advice, from one pre-med biatch to another:

1) I agree, it is sad.

2) Unfortunately, you will almost certainly continue to be exposed to degrading comments throughout your clinical years/residency. Don't take it personally or I imagine it will be hard to make it through.

3) In the case of nurses et al talking smack about medics, this may stem from two sources: a) ignorance about what you do/the training you have and b) the fact that hospital staff receive lots of demanding patients from us and after a while shooting the messenger becomes a coping mechanism. Don't take it as an attack on medics per se...you could train girl scouts in pre-hospital care and I guarantee they would get the same lip service from the people currently giving you grief.

4) The basic idea of being comfortable with who you are and what you are doing is not automatic in life (I don't claim to be there myself)--folks on SDN and in medicine are human, too. Thus, people who are uncomfortable with some aspect of their life will always find a way to crap on others to make themselves feel better...
***note, the following are random examples, I do not aggree/condone any of them***
--On SDN, pre-allos spit game at osteos all the time, intentionally and unintentionally...
--Surgeons can accuse family docs of not having the scores to get into a more competitive residency, and family docs can accuse surgeons of being cold hearted bastards who have no clue about continuous care...
--PAs and NPs duke it out all the time in the epic Battle of Superiority
--Blah Blah Blah...

Look, you gotta just do what you wanna do. If what other people say about your profession bothers you, either ignore it or find a productive way to educate them. As an 8 year medic, you cannot have gotten to where you are today by letting other people's bull**** comments bring you down, and don't let them now.

I'm tired and need sleep, so if anything is misspelled/doesn't make sense above, I just don't care...

 

[nsx]

I doubt that most premeds hate paramedics, but there can be a lot of tension between pre-hospital and hospital personnel. This can sometimes be transferred to premeds observing only one side of the situation.

Based on my own experiences:

1. Ignorance/confusion re: scope of practice--capability and skill set vary widely from person to person, but people tend to generalize based on limited first impressions.

2. Salary differences. This one is huge. Combine with #1--> easy to assume that others are getting paid more to do what you could with your hands tied--> bitterness.

3. Protocol discrepancies and the stereotype that EMS "upcodes" to inc excitement.

4. Subtle differences in presentation style. Sometimes it's okay to say that you've seen cases like this before, but that needs to come after pertinent info, and delicately phrased in a way that does not imply dx. At the transfer of care, hypothesizing about dx can be perceived as an insult to the receiving's intelligence. Not saying I agree with this, but it can be interpreted that way.

"Negative remarks" about differences won't stop once you're a doctor, it will just shift to teasing about your specialty. I'm sure you know by now that having a sense of humor is pretty important in medicine, and sometimes jokes come at your expense. No big deal. If you're competent and capable, why give a crap what other people think?

 

[MedicJ]

Thanks for the speedy replies. I understand the typical RN vs. Paramedic battles. Heck, I have been dealing with them for 8 years. I am sure this is a battle that will never really go away, and it doesn't really bother me. I have encountered many nurses that didn't even know the difference between an EMT-Basic and a Paramedic. Many don't even know what the EMTs do while working. I know it is a completely different world. I have been doing this for a few years and get along well with just about everyone....but I do remember(from when I was new) and still hear about these battles. The battle goes both ways. I hear paramedics complain about making less money than nurses even though they can perform some more advanced skills with a standing order instead of needing a doctor present. I have nurse-friends complaining about paramedics having the freedom to medicate and treat patients without a doctor present(by following standing orders) when the nurses actually have 6 months to a year more education than the medics.
Hospitals are getting more tense in my area because emergency rooms are starting to hire more paramedics(jobs that would usually only go to nurses) because paramedics can give meds, start IVs, intubate and several other skills...and the hospitals save money because they can pay a paramedic less than an RN.
This is all old news and I am VERY aware of these types of problems. I was just confused about this place because I have never had a problem with a doctor while working as a paramedic. I have friends working in the emergency room AS DOCTORS. We all get along just fine. The only time I hear a doctor saying anything bad about a paramedic...it is usually because of a mistake made by the paramedic. I hear the doctors react the same way to the other doctors and nurses. If you screw up, you screw up. I have not overheard or heard about a doctor having a problem with someone because they were a paramedic. Thats the part that caught me off guard. It doesn't really upset me, I am just more adapted to being around doctors behaving as mature professionals. I must have been mistaken when assuming pre-med students(people WANTING to be doctors) would be more mature. I have taught ACLS classes to medical students and they didn't seem to have a problem with paramedics.
Keep in mind, I am just a paramedic. I am mostly around docs in the emergency rooms. Maybe some docs DO hate medics and aren't familiar with what paramedics actually do. Maybe the emergency room doctors like paramedics because they deal with paramedics more than other types of doctors.
Who knows I have been dong this for 8 years in a busy area. I have delivered babies, worked hundreds of code blues and a gazillion other types of patients. I was fully aware of the RN/Paramedic battle but didn't expect it from people trying to become doctors. O-well. We are all human.

 

[greytmedic]

Can you link to a thread that shows this hate towards paramedics? When I used to post on the pre-allo forums a year or two ago I never ran into any animosity towards paramedics. Other than some people saying EMT-B is not anything special on an app, if the person doesn't do anything with it (which is entirely true). So, give us an example of this premed hate, I haven't experienced it on this site.

 

[nsx]

Maybe some docs DO hate medics and aren't familiar with what paramedics actually do.

Or maybe those docs are fed up with medics giving unsolicited advice about pt management. You know that the double edged sword of being so independent is having a reputation for being a rogue. Angering an ER attending to the point where they will remember it usually comes to down to not choosing your words carefully at transfer, e.g. suggesting tx vs. presenting findings.

But even if YOU are flawless, it only takes one heated incident with another cowboy to cause wariness. Why take this personally?

 

[MedicJ]

Or maybe those docs are fed up with medics giving unsolicited advice about pt management. You know that the double edged sword of being so independent is having a reputation for being a rogue. Angering an ER attending to the point where they will remember it usually comes to down to not choosing your words carefully at transfer, e.g. suggesting tx vs. presenting findings.

But even if YOU are flawless, it only takes one heated incident with another cowboy to cause wariness. Why take this personally?

First, I DO NOT see myself as flawless. I have made mistakes with patient care. I don't expect anyone to be perfect and I don't think the doctors expect it, either. I take responsibility for my actions. I gladly accept feedback about my actions. People can't grow if they think they already know everything.
I don't anger attending ER doctors...but I have have witnessed this with other paramedics. I have also witnessed ER doctors get angry with nurses and other doctors. It all boils down to proffesional responsibility. Unfortunately, there are many "rogues" working as paramedics....but we aren't all the same.
I don't take it personally. I don't experience any problems when dealing with doctors. Actually, the doctors usually really like me. This is probably because I don't think I know everything(like some paramedics)and I communicate with the doctors about the treatment they want me to provide. If I have a difficult patient, I ask for input about the decisions I made..just in case I need to learn something for future sittuations. It really isn't hard to get along with an Er doctor..as long as you realize they are the doctor. As previously stated(by me), some paramedics get the para-gawd or martyr syndrome. It is unfortunate because there are many good paramedics dealing with battles caused by a few(ok,maybe more than just a few) bad apples.

 

[MedicJ]

Can you link to a thread that shows this hate towards paramedics? When I used to post on the pre-allo forums a year or two ago I never ran into any animosity towards paramedics. Other than some people saying EMT-B is not anything special on an app, if the person doesn't do anything with it (which is entirely true). So, give us an example of this premed hate, I haven't experienced it on this site.

There isn't just one thread...it's just the general attitude seems bitter.
Here is one of the several responses.

Originally Posted by Tired
What's with the recent influx of "I'm an EMT, so really I'm just like a doctor except my office has wheels"?

I get that EMTs and nurses don't get along. But that doesn't mean that you automatically get to identify with the physicians. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

And just so you know, the ER docs make fun of you as much, or more, than the ER nurses. They just make the nurses talk to you so they don't have to.

 

[docB]

There isn't just one thread...it's just the general attitude seems bitter.
Here is one of the several responses.

Originally Posted by Tired
What's with the recent influx of "I'm an EMT, so really I'm just like a doctor except my office has wheels"?

I get that EMTs and nurses don't get along. But that doesn't mean that you automatically get to identify with the physicians. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

And just so you know, the ER docs make fun of you as much, or more, than the ER nurses. They just make the nurses talk to you so they don't have to.

There is indeed a lot of bitterness among docs, residents and med students. That tends to spill over on whoever is handy. EMS gets their share of attitude for two main reasons: You are bringing up more work when we're already overloaded (the "kill the messenger" syndrome) and anytime you do anything differently than we would have we get (unreasonably) annoyed. Hopefully as docs mature they gain some perspective about this and the actual bitterness inflicted on EMTs subsides. The most snarkiness I dish out is when a crew is bringing in something they're really excited about and I'm backed up. I have been known to toss out "I'll get there as soon as I've seen these 9 other exciting patients I have in the rack."

 

[nsx]

There is indeed a lot of bitterness among docs, residents and med students. That tends to spill over on whoever is handy.

This is what I was trying to emphasize in my first post.

There isn't just one thread...it's just the general attitude seems bitter.

That's not what I got from it; I think Tired is really funny. Maybe this is a sense of humor thing

I don't anger attending ER doctors...but I have have witnessed this with other paramedics... It is unfortunate because there are many good paramedics dealing with battles caused by a few(ok,maybe more than just a few) bad apples.

You completely missed my point. If you are as proficient as you claim, any negativity that lands in your general vicinity is the result of others' behavior. So again, who cares?

I don't take it personally. I don't experience any problems when dealing with doctors.

Yes, you do, or you wouldn't be making a thread about it...

 

[MadMack]

Some of it stems from hospital staff not understanding what a Paramedic is and some it stems from Paramedics not knowing what they are. Varying requirements for, and quality, of the Paramedic education varies so radically that what it means to be a Paramedic in Palm Beach County Florida is very different from what it means to be a Paramedic in Boston or New York. Until 1998 when the Paramedic curriculum was consolidated things varied pretty radically, there were some programs that offered Paramedic certification within 2-3 weeks of intensive training. Now its almost impossible to find a credible Paramedic program whose course runs for less than 1 year; some programs offer a Paramedic program that runs for two years and covers a lot of material that would've previously never been a part of Paramedic education.

We're fighting for recognition as healthcare professionals but given the presence of companies like AMR its not going to be easy.

 

[greytmedic]

I might have figured it out. I looked at the post you quoted and realized where it might have started. The whole thing in your post about being one of only a couple paramedics in a city of 500,000 people, yada yada yada, came off with an underlying cockiness to it. Then it reminded me of some other things I read in this very thread, see below.

but I have delivered babies, intubated, defibrillated and medicated probably hundreds in my 8 short years.

Actually, I have taught ACLS classes to medical students.

I have friends working in the emergency room AS DOCTORS. We all get along just fine.

I have taught ACLS classes to medical students and they didn't seem to have a problem with paramedics.

I have been dong this for 8 years in a busy area. I have delivered babies, worked hundreds of code blues and a gazillion other types of patients.

Actually, the doctors usually really like me.

In this very same thread you mention how you have taught ACLS to med students twice, mentioned the number of babies and code blues you've run twice, and talked about your friends the doctors twice. Now you are probably not doing this on purpose but the underlying tone of the posts can kind of come of as cocky, especially on an internet forum. And everyone usually already has the cocky paramedic stereotype which is just bolstered by the anonymous postings of how you have experienced and done so much as a paramedic. And also, I would need more evidence than a post by Tired, that is pretty much how all of Tired's posts come off.

 

[MedicJ]

I might have figured it out. I looked at the post you quoted and realized where it might have started. The whole thing in your post about being one of only a couple paramedics in a city of 500,000 people, yada yada yada, came off with an underlying cockiness to it. Then it reminded me of some other things I read in this very thread, see below.







In this very same thread you mention how you have taught ACLS to med students twice, mentioned the number of babies and code blues you've run twice, and talked about your friends the doctors twice. Now you are probably not doing this on purpose but the underlying tone of the posts can kind of come of as cocky, especially on an internet forum. And everyone usually already has the cocky paramedic stereotype which is just bolstered by the anonymous postings of how you have experienced and done so much as a paramedic. And also, I would need more evidence than a post by Tired, that is pretty much how all of Tired's posts come off.

My posting about my experiences were to back up the point I was making. If I sounded "cocky" I apologize.
When I am complaining about the lack of staffing for the ambulances in a city this size....I am only meaning exactly what I said. Nothing more or less. I am simply sharing my frustrations ..just like many other people on the forum.
I talk about having doctor-friends(and a few in my family) to support that all paramedics are NOT hated by doctors. This is the same point I was trying to make about teaching ACLS. I have never had a med-student walk out of a class because they hated paramedics. I am sorry if my examples are rubbing you the wrong way but it would be a very weak argument if I offered no supporting evidence to back up the points I am trying to make. Actually, we can all play well together if everyone does their job and acts their age.

 

[MedicJ]

Some of it stems from hospital staff not understanding what a Paramedic is and some it stems from Paramedics not knowing what they are. Varying requirements for, and quality, of the Paramedic education varies so radically that what it means to be a Paramedic in Palm Beach County Florida is very different from what it means to be a Paramedic in Boston or New York. Until 1998 when the Paramedic curriculum was consolidated things varied pretty radically, there were some programs that offered Paramedic certification within 2-3 weeks of intensive training. Now its almost impossible to find a credible Paramedic program whose course runs for less than 1 year; some programs offer a Paramedic program that runs for two years and covers a lot of material that would've previously never been a part of Paramedic education.

We're fighting for recognition as healthcare professionals but given the presence of companies like AMR its not going to be easy.

Agreed

 

[TarHeelEMT]

I've never really encountered any problems with doctors as a prehospital provider. It's the nurses that I've occasionally had run-ins with. Sometimes it feels like there's a running pissing contest between the paramedics and some of the nurses around here.

 

[leviathan]

I find the hospitals vary. Smaller rural/community hospitals seem to be quite friendly to us, but the larger regional hospitals always have grouchy and rude nurses. The doctors at any hospital are usually good to us.