What do aspiring and current M.Ds think of D.Os now?

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RogueUnicorn said:
To be fair there are MD programs like that too
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MD schools that derive the clerkship grade 100% entirely from the shelf score, no matter even if the subjective evals are straight "Passes"?
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DermViser said:
Yes, I know MD rotations have an end-of-rotation exam, I'm well aware of that. It's the NBME subject exam (shelf). What I am saying is that the person said tha tapparently at KCUMB the grade is 100% derived from the exam score. MD rotations have the shelf exam but it doesn't 100% decide the clerkship grade.
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Ok
 
WillburCobb said:
P5ORDUK.gif
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I wish you guys could see how hard I'm laughing about this post
 
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DoctorSynthesis said:
Ok
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So a Residency PD will rightfully look more with a critical eye, when they see a KCUMB student and see his clerkship grade is "Honors" and his grade fully derived from the shelf exam score. And you said KCUMB is one of the good D.O. schools, so you can imagine the bad schools.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
If I bullied a fat person till they committed suicide I didnt attack them because they are actually fat?
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i think it's more equivalent to your doctor telling you to lose weight for your health and you deciding that this was bullying.

seriously guys, suicide and rape? really? these are the best jokes and analogies we can come up with?
 
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RogueUnicorn said:
fixed that for you
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lol SkipJunior 2 units stat to the OR NOW and don't forget to irradiate them. ohh yeah I will need them in a cooler too so get started on getting that ice bag lol
 
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RogueUnicorn said:
i think it's more equivalent to your doctor telling you to lose weight for your health and you deciding that this was bullying.

seriously guys, suicide and rape? really? these are the best jokes and analogies we can come up with?
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I'm sure Jim Crow, slavery, Nazi analogies are soon to come if we wait long enough.
 
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DermViser said:
Correction: You interpreted it to be equivalent.
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Saying a schools education is sucky and saying

"I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education"

Is the same thing. You are literally saying I was wrong for defending DO education quality therefore you must be believe DO schools have poor education quality.
 
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DoctorSynthesis said:
Saying a schools education is sucky and saying

"I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education"

Is the same thing. You are literally saying I was wrong for defending DO education quality therefore you must be believe DO schools have poor education quality.
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Again, I never said the DO degree is "sucky". You're reverting back. You are wrong for defending D.O. schools with the implication that it has absolutely no affect when it comes to the eventual residency match.
 
RogueUnicorn said:
i think it's more equivalent to your doctor telling you to lose weight for your health and you deciding that this was bullying.

seriously guys, suicide and rape? really? these are the best jokes and analogies we can come up with?
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You said you can't attack someone if what you are saying is true. Obviously you can. If someone has pimples and I make fun of them for it I'm attacking them even if they have pimples.

On your scenario the doctor is looking to help the patient you aren't looking to help skip(in that specfic post)
 
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DermViser said:
Again, I never said the DO degree is "sucky". You're reverting back. You are wrong for defending D.O. schools with the implication that it has absolutely no affect when it comes to the eventual residency match.
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I never said it has no affect. Find where I said it has no affect. You got all day. Or you can find my many posts where I admit there is a difference. DOs emphasive primary care and do have a tougher time matching some residencies. However it only takes one and a lot of times we get it grab it and run with it.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
You said you can't attack someone if what you are saying is true. Obviously you can. If someone has pimples and I make fun of them for it I'm attacking them even if they have pimples.

On your scenario the doctor is looking to help the patient you aren't looking to help skip(in that specfic post)
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except I didn't make fun of him, i pointed out he is a non physician blood bank manager. which he is. none of those words are derogatory except, of course, in context - the absurdity where he is taunting an actual physician, a dermatologist for god's sake, who are like the apex predator of academic success
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
I never said it has no affect. Find where I said it has no affect. You got all day. Or you can find my many posts where I admit there is a difference. DOs emphasive primary care and do have a tougher time matching some residencies. However it only takes one and a lot of times we get it grab it and run with it.
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And why do you think that is?

You don't think public LCME accredited MD schools emphasize primary care?
 
DermViser said:
And why do you think that is?

You don't think public LCME accredited MD schools emphasize primary care?
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Because PDs (wrongly) view MD students as superior. However its not as bad as you make it seem. Goro already explained this to me.
 
RogueUnicorn said:
except I didn't make fun of him, i pointed out he is a non physician blood bank manager. which he is. none of those words are derogatory except, of course, in context - the absurdity where he is taunting an actual physician, a dermatologist for god's sake, who are like the apex predator of academic success
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My only issue with them, nothing personal, is that for premed students who are actually trying to get truthful information regarding whether to go to their DO acceptance or MD acceptance, that they will see what DoctorSynthesis and SkipJunior posts and make matriculation decisions based off of that. Hence why you see people going to a DO school based on location, with the thought: "Well DO = MD!" not realizing the real-life implications it has when it comes to matching later.
 
RogueUnicorn said:
except I didn't make fun of him, i pointed out he is a non physician blood bank manager. which he is. none of those words are derogatory except, of course, in context - the absurdity where he is taunting an actual physician, a dermatologist for god's sake, who are like the apex predator of academic success
Click to expand...

You know the context in which you said it was an attack.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
Because PDs (wrongly) view MD students as superior. However its not as bad as you make it seem. Goro already explained this to me.
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So Residency Program Directors, many of whom have been in the position for years if not at least a decade when it comes to recruiting applicants, are wrong, but you are right? You truly do have a lot of hubris.
 
DermViser said:
My only issue with them, nothing personal, is that for premed students who are actually trying to get truthful information regarding whether to go to their DO acceptance or MD acceptance, that they will see what DoctorSynthesis and SkipJunior posts and make matriculation decisions based off of that. Hence why you see people going to a DO school based on location, with the thought: "Well DO = MD!" not realizing the real-life implications it has when it comes to matching later.
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If you had to move your family across the country to go MD then considering local DO isnt a bad idea. @madjack did it.

I don't suggest though in general to go DO over US MD unless its what you truly want and you should inform yourself (as I have)find where I said that people should go DO over MD. I said that people do not that they should. I also gave reasons why people do that.

I want to encourage people against the carribean.
 
DermViser said:
So Residency Program Directors, many of whom have been in the position for years if not at least a decade when it comes to recruiting applicants, are wrong, but you are right? You truly do have a lot of hubris.
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They end up accepting DO applicants so obviously they aren't too concerned.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
If you had to move your family across the country to go MD then considering local DO isnt a bad idea. @madjack did it.

I don't suggest though in general to go DO over US MD unless its what you truly want and you should inform yourself (as I have)find where I said that people should go DO over MD. I said that people do not that they should. I also gave reasons why people do that.

I want to encourage people against the carribean.
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Wrong @Mad Jack
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
They end up accepting DO applicants so obviously they aren't too concerned.
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No some of them end up MATCHING DO applicants. There's a huge difference as they don't have a choice in the matter.
 
As someone pointed out in another thread, there are some PDs who don't consider DOs...at least in Dermatology. I'm not defending that, but it's the truth of how things work currently.

I'm not at all trying to add fuel to the fire, but it has to be considered that people have different definitions of what a great doctor is. To some, a great doctor is someone who is good with patients, rocks diagnoses, gets the job done, gets people better.

My personal opinion of the best doctor is someone who can rock diagnoses, is good with patients, gets people better, and does meaningful research and academic work to advance the field of medicine.

There are DOs and DO programs that do research and I'm sure it is encouraged in a lot of places. But it's hard to disagree with the fact that way fewer DO schools are pulling in the NIH funding that allo schools are.

If someone's definition of a great doctor equates with a great clinician, then I think the chance of a DO and an MD being pretty much equal isn't far fetched at all.

However under MY opinion (and I stress my because it is my opinion, I don't care if other people share that opinion, nor should others care if I don't share theirs), allo track people in general encounter opportunities that give them the chance to integrate research into their careers, especially at top training centers that are pulling down the research cash. This translates into what I (not only is that I capital for grammatical purposes, but also for emphasis again) think makes a doctor the best they can be. That doesn't mean those people automatically utilize what is offered to them to the fullest. and...sure, DOs get into top programs and do these same great things. But in general, it's just more likely to happen for an allo grad in the current state of things to be given those opportunities with which to work.

In the derm world, since that is with which I'm most familiar, research...past, present, and future, is pretty highly prized. Although DO's do research, I'm guessing some PDs may not see it as equal. That may be some of the reason why some PDs don't give DOs as much consideration (or any consideration by some, unfortunately).

Again, I have my opinion of what makes the best doctor. I think being a doctor is better than being a financial advisor. I think Fall is better than Spring. I think blue is better than red. Whatever. My opinions on these matters really shouldn't matter too much to others...in my opinion.
 
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there's a difference between educating pre-meds and viciously putting down DO and DermViser was doing the latter.

Both dermviser and rogue unicorn and some others are generalizing or atleast implying that all DO schools are inferior to all MD schools. That's patently false.

MSUCOM is top 10 in the country for primary care. Schools like MSUCOM, TCOM, Touro-CA, AZCOM etc. far outrank the HBCUs, Puerto Rican MD schools etc. when it comes to research output, admissions standards etc. Nova Southeastern-COM, a DO school has a higher rank than Meharry and Howard according to US News and World Report and same is true for MSUCOM and TCOM....beats the HBCUs out of the ball park.

Therefore it's wrong and malicious to paint all DO schools as sub-par and that a DO degree is inherently inferior to a MD degree. I would choose MSUCOM over several of the low-tier MD schools.
 
Dral said:
As someone pointed out in another thread, there are some PDs who don't consider DOs...at least in Dermatology. I'm not defending that, but it's the truth of how things work currently.

I'm not at all trying to add fuel to the fire, but it has to be considered that people have different definitions of what a great doctor is. To some, a great doctor is someone who is good with patients, rocks diagnoses, gets the job done, get people better.

My personal opinion of the best doctor is someone who can rock diagnoses, is good with patients, gets people better, and does meaningful research and academic work to advance the field of medicine.

There are DOs and DO programs that do research and I'm sure it is encouraged in a lot of places. But it's hard to disagree with the fact that way fewer DO schools are pulling in the NIH funding that allo schools are.

If someone's definition of a great doctor equates with a great clinician, then I think the chance of a DO and an MD both being about equal isn't far fetched at all.

However under MY opinion (and I stress my because it is my opinion, I don't care if other people share that opinion, nor should others care if I don't share theirs), allo track people in general encounter opportunities that give them the chance to integrate research into their careers, especially at top training centers that are pulling down the research cash. This translates into what I (not only is that I capital for grammatical purposes, but also for emphasis again) think makes a doctor the best they can be. That doesn't mean those people automatically utilize what is offered to them to the fullest. and...sure, DOs get into top programs and do these same great things. But in general, it's just more likely to happen for an allo grad in the current state of things to be given those opportunities with which to work.

In the derm world, since that is with which I'm most familiar, research...past, present, and future, are pretty highly prized. Although DO's do research, I'm guessing some PDs may not see it as equal. That may be some of the reason why some PDs don't give DOs as much consideration (or any consideration by some, unfortunately).

Again, I have my opinion what makes the best doctor. I think being a doctor is better than being a financial advisor. I think Fall is better than Spring. I think blue is better than red. Whatever. My opinions on these matters really shouldn't matter too much to others...in my opinion.
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It would be nice if NIH gave more research grants to DOs. My DO school is building a center for research actually FYI.

I like your post but in MY opinion you don't need to do research to be a great doctor.
 
SkipJunior said:
there's a difference between educating pre-meds and viciously putting down DO and DermViser was doing the latter.

Both dermviser and rogue unicorn and some others are generalizing or atleast implying that all DO schools are inferior to all MD schools. That's patently false.

MSUCOM is top 10 in the country for primary care. Schools like MSUCOM, TCOM, Touro-CA, AZCOM etc. far outrank the HBCUs, Puerto Rican MD schools etc. when it comes to research output, admissions standards etc. Nova Southeastern-COM, a DO school has a higher rank than Meharry and Howard according to US News and World Report and same is true for MSUCOM and TCOM....beats the HBCUs out of the ball park.

Therefore it's wrong and malicious to paint all DO schools as sub-par and that a DO degree is inherently inferior to a MD degree. I would choose MSUCOM over several of the low-tier MD schools.
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find one goddamn place where i did this
 
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Derm said nothing of the sort, so chill.

His quote, that you misinterpreted, was "The actual issue is what is behind the piece of paper and student loan dollars, and how residency program directors (which people on SDN will care about since many people are considering certain specialties before applying for medical school) evaluate different residency candidates. Even in the MD world, different medical schools are seen differently by PDs (esp. ones who have been doing it for a long time) as they know which med schools put out stellar candidates, which ones put out average to mediocre candidates."

Which means the perception of reality is sometimes more important than reality for PDs, who will, as he points out not merely object to hiring DOs, but MDs as well.

The rest of you, play nice. Like it not, you're going to be colleagues some day.

DoctorSynthesis said:
Agreed. You are such a good person. Warning everyone about the subpar quality of DO schools. You know I'm so silly. I went and asked DO doctors about the quality of DO schools education. I instead should have asked you person who has never attended a DO school. Every DO school is obviously terrible and every MD school is obviously amazing.

Serious part of the post
If anyone wants to actually know the quality of education and rotations that a do school provides ask someone who actually know what they are talking about not this guy who hasn't attended a DO school.

For example ask

@Goro
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Goro said:
Derm said nothing of the sort, so chill.

His quote, that you misinterpreted, was "The actual issue is what is behind the piece of paper and student loan dollars, and how residency program directors (which people on SDN will care about since many people are considering certain specialties before applying for medical school) evaluate different residency candidates. Even in the MD world, different medical schools are seen differently by PDs (esp. ones who have been doing it for a long time) as they know which med schools put out stellar candidates, which ones put out average to mediocre candidates."

Which means the perception of reality is sometimes more important than reality for PDs, who will, as he points out not merely object to hiring DOs, but MDs as well.

The rest of you, play nice. Like it not, you're going to be colleagues some day.
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GORO!!!

Nice to see you.

I can't respect you more but Im not referring to that post. I'm referring to this one.

"
I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education in terms of quality of MS-3 clerkships, in terms of the match as far as which candidate is more favored (for good reason, IMHO), etc. which other people have taken the time to carefully and slowly explain to you. It's one thing to not like those realities, but you go one step further and choose not to acknowledge them. That's perfectly fine, but what's sad is that someone reading what you say might actually believe it and make matriculation decisions based on that.
"


I don't think you saw that. However this is not what I was asking you about! I understand with this mess how things might have gotten lost on you.

I'm asking you about the quality of your schools education and rotation compared to local MD schools. Thanks goro!!!!
 
southernIM said:
It's not like the NIH is looking at grant applications and going "LOL DO...NOPE!!"

If DOs want more grant money...write more competitive grant applications.
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I don't think its that simple.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
It would be nice if NIH gave more research grants to DOs. My DO school is building a center for research actually FYI.

I like your post but in MY opinion you don't need to do research to be a great doctor.
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And I bet there are many who share your opinion as well. :)

I have a BA, BS, PhD, MPH, and MD...so I'm kinda into the whole academics thing. :p
 
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Dral said:
And I bet there are many who share your opinion as well. :)

I have a BA, BS, PhD, MPH, and MD...so I'm kinda into the whole academics thing. :p
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Understandable why you feel that way!
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
I don't think you saw that. However this is not what I was asking you about! I understand with this mess how things might have gotten lost on you.
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I seriously can not believe you said this to @Goro. It doesn't matter what we say - Goro is not lost.

He (she?) knows exactly what I was getting at. My other quote is detailing the concerns that PDs have which they actually voice and have voiced.
 
DermViser said:
I seriously can not believe you said this to @Goro. It doesn't matter what we say - Goro is not lost.

He (she?) knows exactly what I was getting at. My other quote is detailing the concerns that PDs have which they actually voice and have voiced.
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You can't believe that I told goro that with a glut of posts he might not have found the one I was referencing?

That's not goros fault.

I think goro knows who I am and im pretty sure he knows how much respect I have for him.
 
southernIM said:
Do you know how grants get funded? (Because I do)
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But did you go thru a D.O. school and ask them how they apply for NIH grants? If not, then how could you know? /sarc
 
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