what does a veterinary pathologist do?

[Rosekiki]

Hello everyone,

I am a pre-vet student in California, and I will be applying next summer.
I currently work in a lab as an undergraduate volunteer. I have daily interaction with our lab animals (mice, rats, dogs), and I am enjoying the environment and the challenges so far. I have been looking into the field of veterinary pathology because I am always interested an curious every time something goes wrong with our lab animals. I know this doesn't sound like I am sure of myself, but I think pathology may be something I am interested in.

So my question is, what does a vet. pathologist do? Any information would help. If you know someone who is a vet. pathologist, or is one yourself, please leave a comment! I would love to learn anything there is about this field.

Thanks in advance!

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[theunraveler]

Basically after your vet degree, you specialise in pathology which requires even more study.

The job involves you looking at tissue samples sent in from vets and try to work out what sort of cellular process is going on. Is there degeneration, metaplasia, hyperplasia or neoplasia going on in the tissue sample that is sent in? You will look at the sample and do whatever test that needs to be done. You will be required to do necropsy which is pretty back breaking work especially when you try to remove the brains.

You'd be chained to a microscope basically but I hear the pay is good and the hours are pretty flexible.

 

[Rosekiki]

Basically after your vet degree, you specialise in pathology which requires even more study.

The job involves you looking at tissue samples sent in from vets and try to work out what sort of cellular process is going on. Is there degeneration, metaplasia, hyperplasia or neoplasia going on in the tissue sample that is sent in? You will look at the sample and do whatever test that needs to be done. You will be required to do necropsy which is pretty back breaking work especially when you try to remove the brains.

You'd be chained to a microscope basically but I hear the pay is good and the hours are pretty flexible.

haha thank you! I do need to consider these things, since I do love seeing actual live animals and do stuff with them. Other than the pay and schedule, anything else positive about it?

 

[theunraveler]

Stable working hours? I dunno....

 

[twelvetigers]

I'm actually interested in pathology, but we do have someone doing a residency in anatomical pathology here on the forum, so I'm sure she'll pitch in after a bit if you're patient.

As for general information, here's what I can tell you. There are two type of pathologists - clinical and anatomical. Anatomical pathologists will be working with tissue, whether it be histopath (biopsy, tissue sample) or necropsy (animal autopsy). Clinical pathologists work mainly with microscopes. They'll be seeing lots of blood, urine, washes, and fluids. There's also the random cool stuff like bone marrow slides, etc...

In order to go into pathology, you must first complete your four year DVM/VMD or equivalent. Then you seek a residency in either clinical or anatomic pathology. These are three year residencies. A lot of pathologists have a M.S. or Ph.D. but there are schools that allow you to do both as once, and really, you may not need to worry about it depending on what you decide to do (or where you'd like to work).

Essentially, I think it sounds awesome, but I'm not sure how 'narrowed' vet schools really want your focus to be as you apply for admissions. So, keep an open mind. I'm interested because of the diversity of cases you would see (lots of cool stuff too!), a love affair with microscopes, a somewhat predictable work environment, and the possibility of teaching.

For anything more specific, I'm sure whtsthfrequency will be around.

 

[Rosekiki]

I'm actually interested in pathology, but we do have someone doing a residency in anatomical pathology here on the forum, so I'm sure she'll pitch in after a bit if you're patient.

As for general information, here's what I can tell you. There are two type of pathologists - clinical and anatomical. Anatomical pathologists will be working with tissue, whether it be histopath (biopsy, tissue sample) or necropsy (animal autopsy). Clinical pathologists work mainly with microscopes. They'll be seeing lots of blood, urine, washes, and fluids. There's also the random cool stuff like bone marrow slides, etc...

In order to go into pathology, you must first complete your four year DVM/VMD or equivalent. Then you seek a residency in either clinical or anatomic pathology. These are three year residencies. A lot of pathologists have a M.S. or Ph.D. but there are schools that allow you to do both as once, and really, you may not need to worry about it depending on what you decide to do (or where you'd like to work).

Essentially, I think it sounds awesome, but I'm not sure how 'narrowed' vet schools really want your focus to be as you apply for admissions. So, keep an open mind. I'm interested because of the diversity of cases you would see (lots of cool stuff too!), a love affair with microscopes, a somewhat predictable work environment, and the possibility of teaching.

For anything more specific, I'm sure whtsthfrequency will be around.

thanks for your reply. Yeah I actually have a pretty open mind about what I want to do, but it's just that I know for sure uc davis likes to see its applicants getting experience from a field of their interest, so I'm really trying to find out just what it is that I like to do. For now, being in a research environment everyday including the weekend makes me want to explore research a little more (I work with the vet on staff actually). She was the one who suggested me to look into pathology.

But yeah, I'm sure if I spend time in a say... shelter or zoo or something, I will end up liking it too haha. I don't know! I hope I find out soon =)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm an anatomic pathology resident Maybe I can help.

The most fascinating thing about the job to me, is that we can diagnose things that other doctors can't see. We're the end of the line, the final diagnosis. We don't always have all the answers, but we have a lot of them. It's so satisfying to be able to help a producers whose animal are mysteriously dying off and the field clinicians are stumped or to bring back a benign diagnosis to a worried owner (and yes, even a malignant one, because although sad it gives them some sort of peace of mind).

The variety of species is also a plus. A lot of clinical vets tend to be most SA, Eq, FA...we get them all. Since I have started residency, I have done cats, dogs, goats, sheep, horses, cows, potbellied pigs, alpacas, llamas, a camel, a huge lion, fish, parrots, a snow leopard, a bearcat, deer, rats....I'm probably forgetting some along the way, but a lot!

However, we don't only work with dead animals (as my mother says, hah!) The other half of what we do is biopsy (for live animals). And depending on your personality, you can be as involved as you want to be with the case. I do know of pathologists, especially those with an interest in oncology, become very involved with case management (ie not just sit behind a microscope). Me, I'm more of an introvert so I don't mind being the "man behind the curtain". However, TBH, *generally* your interaction with clients is minimal (awesome for me, because I cannot put up with people's ***t, but I know we all differ). However, I do miss food animal medicine a bit - but you know, you can't have it all. I'll scratch that itch by having a hobby farm once I settle down get me some Brangus.

My normal day is filled with various types of rounds (derm, neuro, histo) and then either biopsy or necropsy depending on the week. The hours are also very condusive to my lifestyle - I am not an 60-80 hour a week type of person - I have my animals to look after (and likely a family in the future), I'm very active in hiking, biking, etc. My life is not consumed wholly by my work, so I can stay sane.

Although - path is a huge, HUGE learning curve. They say you need to know everything about everything in vet school - this is x10 in path, because you need to know all that plus the specific molecular and genetic processes, histologic characteristics, behavior is a multitude of different species (betcha didn't know there was an elephant herpesvirus did ya?) etc. The amount of information is seriously endless.

Pathology is also very complimentary to research, which is likely why it was suggested to you. There are a LOT of research pathologists, especially in the arena of drug development. Personality wise, we are all pretty quirky (I mean come on, to do what we do you have to be! ) but very nice. I honestly have never met a pathologist, anatomic or clinical, that I didn't like. We're the big nerds of the vetmed world.

If you have any more specific questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[twelvetigers]

Aww, whtsthfrequency, I <3 you!

I'm so excited, I really hope I get the opportunity to become a colleague of yours someday.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Well you're not that far if you ever wanna come down and do spend some time we'd love to have ya! Actually/ironically three of our residents are from Oklahoma haha and they went to school together although in different years.


PS: Necropsy is only backbreaking when you get 3 large-ish dogs, 2 big horses, 1 steer, a cat, and a rat all in one afternoon when your rotator cuff is bothering you I lovingly refer to it as my afternoon workout. But hey, we finished it all in 4 hours! Rawr!

 

[Rosekiki]

oh my goodness thank you so much for the detailed answer. what you do sounds interesting! It really gets me excited. Where did you specialize? And how big was the class?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm currently specializing at Texas A&M (still a resident, just started this summer). My class size in veterinary school was about 90, or did you mean the number of other residents? TAMU actually has quite a few - three first years, two second years, and three third years.

Usually the number of residents in a program varies from 4 to 8 with an average of 1 to 2 residents being accepted every year. Unfortunately due to budget issues, those numbers are looking more like 0-1 this cycle for many schools. Competition is pretty fierce because although there are not huge numbers of people applying for path residencies, there are not a lot of positions - usually each vet school will have one or two, and many there are a few scattered at pharma or lab institutions, but that's it. As opposed to the huge multitude of surgery, IM, etc residencies are many schools, large private practices, referral centers, etc.

The one frustrating thing is trying to drag morphologic diagnoses out of second years in lab. OMG. I hate silence when I ask a question!!!! Haha, sorry, I just spent 4 hours teaching lab this afternoon and it was like pulling teeth in the last session. However, I do find that I am enjoying teaching very much. Its another big part of the residency - when we are on the floor we are directing and mentoring about 5 to 6 fourth year students (who are on a clinical services or necropsy or path rotation depending on the school) at any one time, and we also teach the second year pathology lab course. A little intimidating as a first year resident, especially when they ask a question I am myself unsure of, but I do like it. A little draining though....like I said, I am an introvert.

 

[Rosekiki]

thanks for your reply. yea I was asking about the specialization class size. so you can specialize at any vet school? or just a selected few?

to be honest, I'm scared by the competition! I feel like I can never be as excellent as those crazy elite people (like you!). but I think I just have to push onward, and take the opportunities when the doors open

I just found out last night that my campus has not 1, but 3 pathology research labs led by veterinarians!! how is it that I didn't know before! I'm interested in one of them, it does diagnosis the public, and research on neuromuscular diseases in cats and dogs. http://vetneuromuscular.ucsd.edu/index.html

but I'm currently already part of another lab.... I was actually thinking about working on a master's degree in my current lab. If you were me, would you leave the lab you are already established in, and pursue the one that does things more closely related to your interest?

thank you! lots of thanks!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Pretty much every vet school has a pathology residency, and there are a few in outside areas/schools (Johns Hopkins, Wake Forest, etc). Not every program will have open spots at any one time though.

http://www.acvp.org/residents/TrainingCenter.cfm

That should give you an idea as to programs.

Crazy elite people looooollll....I don't consider myself one at all. I didn't get straight As and work my nose to the grindstone, I just loved path, and am good at it, pursued lots of path-related opportunities and performed well, and did ok in school (not spectacularly). That's the nice thing about path residencies, they tend to not be *quite* as grades focused, and more "has this person proved they really want to do path/what extra opportunities have they pursued/ how did they do there" etc. E.g. the fact that I did a summer pathology externship at Wake Forest with their primates balanced out the fact that maybe I did not do so hot in Opthamology or something.

Pathology is a clinical residency, like radiology, anesthesia, IM...so you generally don't do research unless you want to or the program requires it. Although, many programs now have PhDs integrated with the residencies, making them more like 5 or 6 total year instead of the usual 3, because pathology does lend itself well to research.

Personally, I am finding I like diagnostics much more than research so far, so I may stick with being a boarded pathologist in 3 years and not spend more time doing a PhD, as much as I like research. I'm very "schooled out" and don't think the payoff is enough given my changing interests.

In terms of labs for your master's degree...the best way to figure it out is to talk to the people who work in the lab. Are they happy, etc. Also, is the lab producing papers, or do they have a big frilly project but have been stagnant. My boyfriend is currently doing his masters, and one of the best things about his program is how many papers they have been turning out...so he knows he won't be stuck after 2 years.

It looks like this particular lab is more of a diagnostic lab, not a research lab? But I am sure they have projects on the side...

 

[NittanyKitty]

Glad to hear from you, WhtsThFrequency! I'm undecided right now, but path is definitely an interest - loved my undergrad class and I like what I've seen so far in vet school.

A few quick questions for you - did you complete an internship before your residency? What's been the general feeling regarding internships before entering path (Yay? Nay? If you're so inclined?)? Are you working on your PhD as well and/or do you have plans to?

And my personal life story - I'm in Raleigh, the boy is in Pittsburgh. He is forced to leave his company in two years to get his MBA at one of only a few "accepted" programs, so we're hoping he comes down here to Duke or UNC. We'll graduate together then he has two more years of work in Pittsburgh before they pay for his program. Knowing this (and I know it's a LONG way off and things can always change), in your opinion would it be detrimental to my opportunity in path to do private practice or internship + private practice for those two years before applying for residencies? We'll have done at least 3.5 years of LDR at that point, and another two if we can swing it another way makes me a sad panda...

Sorry about the nitty gritty details, but thanks so much for your help!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Nope, I did not practice or do an internship. Sure, an internship may help, but it's not anything make or break in the application. A large number of my resident-mates practiced for a year or two beforehand, but that was more personal choice than feeling they had to.

No, I'm likely not going to do a PhD. I initially was going to, but when you get to my age and have had so much training....you want to get out into the real world and have a job. I was all for doing on at first during school, being a research nerd...but at the years went on I realized that my bigger priorities are starting a real life, family, etc - I'm tired of school and getting paid crap to slave away. Plus, I am really, REALLY loving diagnostics, more so than research. A lot of path programs have a required PhD attached, so I avoided those - the one I am in now has it as an optional thing. The majority of our residents do one, but you also have the option not to and it is no biggie - I like the freedom. Also, most of them are married and have double incomes, so they can justify the time and pay - I don't think I can. Many times you actually take a pay cut from resident salary to PhD graduate student once the research kicks into gear full-time, and other programs do not let you take boards until after you finish the PhD - stupid because you will have forgotten everything by then!

An internship or private practice would definitely not be detrimental to you, but remember that you aren't going to learn much pathology in, say, a rotating medicine internship. It either won't hurt or may help depending on the residency - some do like to see you have 'gotten out there' but it is certainly not a requirement. If it makes your life easier, definitely do it. Can't hurt. And try to spend a few weeks at various path programs while you do it, if you can...or just a couple days here and there. For example, we have a practitioner in Austin who comes to hang out with us on Tuesdays who will be applying.

 

[sumstorm]

Hey, WhtsThFrequency, had a question for you. We had gen path this semester, and I find it far more appealing than I ever anticipated (enjoy the variety and the puzzle and the discovery and tend to be an info generalist across species), but I have a concern about the field. Over time I have developed an intolerance to formaldehyde (induced migraines, irritates my lungs) so I assumed that path is off the table for me. Can you tell me if that is true? (I realize this may be a 'duh, no brainer' question but I figured you might have additional info.)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Oh man formaldehyde/formalin can be nasty for sure! I am very sensitive to it as well..one full-on whiff and my eyes start to water and I start coughing.

I've never had a problem with smelling it overtly in residency though, because we always do all our preserved tissue trimming under a half-hood or at least some place with mechanical airflow to keep the gases away. And if we have a lab rat for necropsy, they are usually submitted cut open in a jar of formalin, so we have to do the whole necropsy with a formalin soaked rat - and I still have never had any issues breathing it in because of the precautions that we take with airflow/hoods.

That being said, I would maybe ask a resident if you can go trim with them sometime, see if anything bothers you, since I can't gauge your degree of sensitivity.

 

[twelvetigers]

Clinical pathologists don't mess with formaldehyde, either.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yeah, they are just grease monkeys....

 

[sumstorm]

Yeah, clin path isn't something I could do all the time. I have signed up for our necropsy shifts, but so far haven't had a call in (weekend shifts, if they have a necropsy come up, can call in students to assist.) With the class, we definitly aren't using hoods; just on soapstone counters and the fumes are not fun. I'll ask some of the residents if I can tag along....they get to teach some of our classes and a couple of them are really enthusiastic. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Kat0303]

Thought I'd chime in too. I'm a 3rd year vet student and have been pretty much dead set on doing an anatomic pathology residency since school started. I'm to the point where I'm trying to figure out where I want to be after graduation and whether I want to do a PhD or not. Ive done path research in vet school and really love the research side, so I most likely will. I've started to get a big interest in lab animal pathology, and am doing my 4th year externships at Vanderbilt and Johns Hopkins, which I'm suuuuper excited about. I don't really know a lot about the lab animal side of pathology, so it'll be interesting to see. Path is pretty cool so if you have an interest in it, explore it further!

Whatsthefrequency- Were you able to go to the ACVP conference this year?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

No unfortunately....too expensive. They can afford to send the elder residents but us lowly first years gotta stay and work the floor Good luck at JH....to be honest what I have heard about their path programs is pretty negative - so take a very critical look at it while you are there and make sure you see as much as you can. Brilliant people - but awful work environment...you're pretty much thrown in the deep end with no (or reluctant) help from the pathologists. One of my colleagues who worked there for the summer said as a student she was basically ignored - so make sure they pay attention to you and help you learn! Have you though about doing something at NIH also?

 

[Kat0303]

No unfortunately....too expensive. They can afford to send the elder residents but us lowly first years gotta stay and work the floor Good luck at JH....to be honest what I have heard about their path programs is pretty negative - so take a very critical look at it while you are there and make sure you see as much as you can. Brilliant people - but awful work environment...you're pretty much thrown in the deep end with no (or reluctant) help from the pathologists. One of my colleagues who worked there for the summer said as a student she was basically ignored - so make sure they pay attention to you and help you learn! Have you though about doing something at NIH also?

That's too bad you didn't get to go! I imagine you're pretty busy too. Thanks for the heads up about JH. I haven't heard much about the program, so it's nice to hear first hand from someone who's heard about it. I was torn between doing one there and doing on at NIH...have you heard about the program at NIH? It seems like a pretty great place to be, so I'm sad I don't have enough externship weeks to go there too!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The NIH program is just set up very well in that you have flexibility on where you go to "school" - plus you are paid a heck of a lot more than normal residents (grumble grumble). The PhD is pretty much required so you'd have to be sure you want to do one...Honestly, a lot of programs are like that now. I think its terrible....we should not be forced to spend an additional 4 years or so getting a PhD if we don't want to. However, I know several pathologists who did the NIH route and *raved* about it - I have not heard a single bad thing about it.

My mentor was trying so hard to get me to do it, ha ha! He loved it. But I was still waffling on the PhD aspect so I thought it would be better to try for programs that did not have it as an absolute requirement, in case my mind changed.

 

[kibootsy]

Hi. I'm applying to vet schools this year and I am interested in studying pathology. I was wondering if I should mention that during interviews. I ask because I have no work experience in pathology. My background is small animal emergency / ICU. I was told by a prevet counselor that I should always backup my interest with experience. Thanks!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Definitely mention it. I would think that schools like to see people who are interested in things outside their "comfort zone". Of course, since you don't have actual experience, be prepared to explain what aspects of pathology you find interesting, and how you plan to take advantage of classes/labs/other experiences to pursue it and see if you like it.

If you express interest as well as a plan of how you are going to go about exploring that interest, they take you seriously and think hey, this person is pretty open/well-rounded, etc as opposed to someone just rattling off random stuff they are 'interested' in for 'brownie points', y'know?

 

[kibootsy]

Thank you for your advise. I now feel confident to mention my interest in pathology and I can start thinking about how to present myself & my plan during interviews. This forum is so helpful. And you are awesome for taking time to write and help!

 

[Kat0303]

The NIH program is just set up very well in that you have flexibility on where you go to "school" - plus you are paid a heck of a lot more than normal residents (grumble grumble). The PhD is pretty much required so you'd have to be sure you want to do one...Honestly, a lot of programs are like that now. I think its terrible....we should not be forced to spend an additional 4 years or so getting a PhD if we don't want to. However, I know several pathologists who did the NIH route and *raved* about it - I have not heard a single bad thing about it.

My mentor was trying so hard to get me to do it, ha ha! He loved it. But I was still waffling on the PhD aspect so I thought it would be better to try for programs that did not have it as an absolute requirement, in case my mind changed.

Hey again, I wanted to ask you a few questions about path stuff so I'm bumping this thread up

I decided not to do the JH externship (for a number of reasons), so I'm doing some research on different path programs to see where I want to go instead. I want to go somewhere that I could potentially apply for a residency, so I'm trying to be very careful, and have a few questions if you don't mind helping me out with whatever you may be able to answer!

North Carolina has an interesting path residency program (from what I've read on the website)...It says they have 3 different program paths for anatomic path residents, with one having this description:
"NCSU / Partnership positions provide for 3-years of residency training at NCSU similar to our NCSU training positions but with a focus on specific pathology career goals developed with partner institutions. Career opportunities are varied and include diagnostic, industry and government and academic. Antech Diagnostics Inc. sponsors diagnostic career focused positions. Emphasis is on preparation for certification by the American College of Veterinary Pathologists."
This caught my attention, and like the idea of the program being tailored to your interest, but I didn't know exactly what that meant...have you heard anything about this?


I also am in the boat (as I mentioned in this thread awhile back) of not being sure about whether I want to do a phd or not. I like research, but I'd rather not go into a program that I would be required to do one in case I end up not wanting to. You mentioned you only looked at programs that didn't require one when you were applying...do you have any insight on programs you liked/disliked when you were looking into those programs that don't require a PhD? And some of the websites say "strongly recommended" to pursue a PhD....that makes me nervous because I wonder if you end up getting pressured to do the PhD in those programs even though it seems like it's optional, or if you have less of a chance of being picked for the residency if you say you are unsure if you will be pursuing a phd (some schools say outright that they will consider those pursuing a phd over ones not wanting one)

I also really like diagnostics, and feel like I might be happy in that career (like at a lab or something). I have a lot lot lot of interest in histopath..more so than necropsy, but I do like necropsy too. I wish there was a residency program that was more heavy on histopath than others, but it seems like most are pretty similar in dividing out time spent in necropsy and biopsy. Do you find that to be true with what you know about different programs?

Sorry about the long message and the many questions! I'm just trying to be as choosy about my externship as I can, since I would like to do it at a place that I would apply for a residency. Thanks for your help!!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Oooo so many good questions! Come to TAMU for an externship, I'll put you up for the summer!!! I will reply more later....right now I am bogged down in leukemia I definitely feel you on the whole PhD thing...hopefully I will not write more than a 500 word rant (heehee).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

North Carolina has an interesting path residency program (from what I've read on the website)...It says they have 3 different program paths for anatomic path residents, with one having this description:
"NCSU / Partnership positions provide for 3-years of residency training at NCSU similar to our NCSU training positions but with a focus on specific pathology career goals developed with partner institutions. Career opportunities are varied and include diagnostic, industry and government and academic. Antech Diagnostics Inc. sponsors diagnostic career focused positions. Emphasis is on preparation for certification by the American College of Veterinary Pathologists."
This caught my attention, and like the idea of the program being tailored to your interest, but I didn't know exactly what that meant...have you heard anything about this?

Yup - we have something kind of like this too. One of my resident-mates is technically sponsored by an outside cardiopathology lab, so she does residency but works there too. We will have an incoming resident next summer who is sponsored by the state diagnostic lab, so she will spent more rotations over there, too. I think due to funding issues, some programs are trying to find funding from outside sources for residents, who then take more specific training courses. My one caveat is that while "specializing within your specialty", you would still need to complete the same requirements as all the other residents - which is a LOT of work when you technically have "two employers". Very rewarding, but very busy. My cardiopath colleague is learning this firsthand.

I also am in the boat (as I mentioned in this thread awhile back) of not being sure about whether I want to do a phd or not. I like research, but I'd rather not go into a program that I would be required to do one in case I end up not wanting to. You mentioned you only looked at programs that didn't require one when you were applying...do you have any insight on programs you liked/disliked when you were looking into those programs that don't require a PhD? And some of the websites say "strongly recommended" to pursue a PhD....that makes me nervous because I wonder if you end up getting pressured to do the PhD in those programs even though it seems like it's optional, or if you have less of a chance of being picked for the residency if you say you are unsure if you will be pursuing a phd (some schools say outright that they will consider those pursuing a phd over ones not wanting one)

When they say strongly encourage, they mean it in most cases. Yes, if someone wants to do a PhD and you say outright that you are not sure, then they will consider the other person more heavily. Unfortunate fact. Some programs definitely do pressure you.

The proper response is that at this time, if they were to ask you, is that you see "no impediment" to it "right now", and "are interested" in a PhD. Not that you will do one 100%. Don't paint yourself into a corner you cannot get out of unless you are very sure you want to do one, but never openly admit to being unsure. I know it sounds bad but....eh.

This is something to definitely speak directly with the residents about, and ask them specifically if they feel pressured. Sometimes "strongly recommended" means they will beat you with the proverbial stick to get it - occasionally, it is a lot more lax and they understand that people's desires change.

If you have questions about specific programs, you can PM me, just do I don't go blathering on a public forum - I already blathered on more than I should have about one particular one I know about a few, including ones my fellow residents have told me about. Also - definitely ask about the boards situation with regards to PhD. I know programs that do not allow you to take boards until you finish your PhD - which means 3-4 years of doing no diagnostics. Poor setup, IMO.

I also really like diagnostics, and feel like I might be happy in that career (like at a lab or something). I have a lot lot lot of interest in histopath..more so than necropsy, but I do like necropsy too. I wish there was a residency program that was more heavy on histopath than others, but it seems like most are pretty similar in dividing out time spent in necropsy and biopsy. Do you find that to be true with what you know about different programs?

Necropsy by itself is not the biggest part of it anyway - the vast majority of programs are very histology based. Sure you do necropsy, but you do histo on all your cases (or a lot of them) plus biopsy duty, etc.

In order to get as much histology experience as possible, rounds and seminar are absolutely essential. Make sure the program has structure for their residents to learn. Some programs skimp by on maybe one seminar a week with a couple slides - no way.

We get blasted with histology here Here is an example rounds schedule here (and I will say that, with the national first-time pass average of ACVP boards being ~30%, and it being 90-100% here, this just shows you how much our extensive structure helps).

Monday:
8:00am Derm path slide rounds or journal club
Tuesday:
11:00am State diagnostic lab slide rounds (every other week - we are given 15 slides ahead of time, must fully describe, and then go around the room on the multiheaded scope and present to the group)
Wednesday:
off
Thursday:
11:00 am AFIP rounds (we all gather together and are randomly called on to describe a slide we have never seen before at the multiheaded scope, in front of everyone, in only 15 minutes - VERY good boards practice!!)
Friday:
10:00am Gross quiz - we are presented with 20 images, 30 sec per image, and must come up with a morphologic diagnosis, cause, pathogenesis, whatever the pathologists wants. Then we go around the room and say what we think it is.
11:00am Histopathology seminar: We get 3 -4 slides every week, and again are randomly called up to present. Our writeups are also graded.
1pm Gross rounds : showing everyone what we did in necropsy that week.

So you see, we do a TON of histopath!!! And this is in addition to all the histopath you do on your necropsy cases and biopsy. I know a lot of other programs are just as nicely structured, but some kind of leave you to fend for yourself. I can only speak a little about a few other program on that account, so again your best bet might be contacting actual residents.

I still say one of the biggest things in residency is liking your colleagues. I don't like Texas, but I am truly so happy to be with such a friendly group of people. Even in our rounds (which can often be embarrassing if you dont know what you are looking at! lol) we always encourage each other, help, etc.

 

[TJenks89]

Hi WhtsThFrequency!

I know you are being bombarded with questions, but I have been wondering what the typical Vet School GPA is for residents accepted into the pathology program?

 

[libster06]

Personality wise, we are all pretty quirky (I mean come on, to do what we do you have to be! ) but very nice. I honestly have never met a pathologist, anatomic or clinical, that I didn't like. We're the big nerds of the vetmed world.

It's true... we had a pathologist for our group leader in one of our classes and she was REALLY helpful and wanted us to get the most learning out of the experience as we could. My experience with her was much better than my experience with a lab animal vet :/

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hi WhtsThFrequency!

I know you are being bombarded with questions, but I have been wondering what the typical Vet School GPA is for residents accepted into the pathology program?

It is SO variable....

Path tends to look more at your specific pathology experience and your ability to get along with others. Proving your specific aptitude and dedication to the field is just as important, if not more so, than grades. It also varies by program. Some will laugh you out if you don't have over a 3.6. Some are much more willing to look at your other qualifications.

If you have a 4.0 but didn't go the extra mile to do externships, extra rotations, etc in path, you're bumped down the list. However, if you have a lower GPA (like mine) but busted ass to take elective classes, summer opportunities, etc, then you may be looked at more highly.

I got into an extremely prestigious program with about 30-40 people applying per spot (not bragging, just to show you an example) with a sub 3.0 GPA, but I took every path class I could and made As, worked part time all thru school in path labs, took every summer and break to do something research or path related, etc. I did have some grade explaining to do, but they considered all my other experiences and successes equally.

Of course, grades DO matter somewhat, but more so in your pathology classes. They don't care if you got a C in Behavior, or Optho, or Practice management. They DO care if you got a C in Histology or Physiology. You don't need a 4.0.

*********By the way, excuse the slightly unprofessional avatar. I am playing a game in the Lounge with peeps**********

 

[libster06]

If you have a 4.0 but didn't go the extra mile to do externships, extra rotations, etc in path, you're bumped down the list. However, if you have a lower GPA (like mine) but busted ass to take elective classes, summer opportunities, etc, then you may be looked at more highly.

I got into an extremely prestigious program with about 30-40 people applying per spot (not bragging, just to show you an example) with a sub 3.0 GPA, but I took every path class I could and made As, worked part time all thru school in path labs, took every summer and break to do something research or path related, etc. I did have some grade explaining to do, but they considered all my other experiences and successes equally.

Of course, grades DO matter somewhat, but more so in your pathology classes. They don't care if you got a C in Behavior, or Optho, or Practice management. They DO care if you got a C in Histology or Physiology. You don't need a 4.0.

That's nice to hear from someone who didn't have all A's. Do you feel like it is that way with most areas of specialization? If you don't have any idea, you can be honest too, I just wondered if you knew of others who had mediocre-lower GPAs and got into specialization programs. I just ask because I am still chasing a Dermatology dream, and I am working hard to make better grades, but sometimes think perhaps I may not be cut out for that.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That's nice to hear from someone who didn't have all A's. Do you feel like it is that way with most areas of specialization? If you don't have any idea, you can be honest too, I just wondered if you knew of others who had mediocre-lower GPAs and got into specialization programs. I just ask because I am still chasing a Dermatology dream, and I am working hard to make better grades, but sometimes think perhaps I may not be cut out for that.

The extremely popular residencies such as surgery and optho definitely put a higher emphasis. It may be due to number of people per spot, but I don't know. Derm is like that, from what I hear - but more programs are coming out, I believe. Overall though (from my experience) for the vast majority of specialties, experience and recommendations (forgot about that LORs are critical. The first thing my boss told me during my interview was that I has great LORs) are slightly more important than grades in many cases.

You could always do path and subspecialize in derm path! We have one of the top veterinary dermatopathologists in the US here, she's awesome (Texas A&M). Hell, you're not that far at LSU, come play with us for a few weeks next summer!

 

[RadRadTerp]

Hi WhtsThFrequency,

I'm a first-year vet student and after reading your comments in this thread, I realized that I might be more interested in a future pathology than I initially thought. I've been doing better academically than I thought I would be and want to experience the challenge of something difficult after vet school because I always do best when I have adversity to face. My question for you is what types of summer experiences did you have while getting your DVM?

I'm hoping to score a summer position at a zoo this year and I will probably be working at a clinic to save money for next semester's extra expenses, but I have already begun thinking about 2012. One of the things I have thought about doing next year is a 2-week go with RAVS to get field surgery experience (mostly spays/neuters) to get a lot more hands-on learning with tissues and flesh. However, my school does have a clin path student helper job and regular path rounds on certain days during the semester. I figure I could probably get a lot of experience in observing the rounds, but I may not have time to get more involved in the path lab due to family/pet obligations. Would you say that adequate summer experiences and a solid recommendation from your school's head pathologist could make up for not working in a lab during the semester?

BTW, thank you for all the great info you've provided thus far.

 

[libster06]

The extremely popular residencies such as surgery and optho definitely put a higher emphasis. It may be due to number of people per spot, but I don't know. Derm is like that, from what I hear - but more programs are coming out, I believe. Overall though (from my experience) for the vast majority of specialties, experience and recommendations (forgot about that LORs are critical. The first thing my boss told me during my interview was that I has great LORs) are slightly more important than grades in many cases.

You could always do path and subspecialize in derm path! We have one of the top veterinary dermatopathologists in the US here, she's awesome (Texas A&M). Hell, you're not that far at LSU, come play with us for a few weeks next summer!

Believe me I'm wanting to transfer there ASAP... I had to turn down my offer from A&M for vet school because of some pre-req related things and that's why I ended up here, but I know it's a great place for anyone wanting to specialize. The derm doctor I worked for in the summer had a wife doing a clin path residency there and he told me all about the program.... you say you didn't have a great GPA but from what I hear it's a lot of brilliant minds over there! I'm definitely open for options along my vet school path, as I don't think I've found my niche yet, so I will surely check into that.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Ooooo RadRadTerp you're a Hokie! My alma mater! I can totally hook ya up with some local names if you want.

Gotta run out and do things now, but I was so excited to see Blacksburg VA in your location line and had to comment (I actually just got back from visiting my bf, who is there finishing his Animal Science Master's, last week - nice weather!)

And go for the clin path thing - I did that exact position for a year and a half, and I know the girls that do it now It's very cool.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The derm doctor I worked for in the summer had a wife doing a clin path residency there and he told me all about the program....

Where was this, in TX? If its the same person, the wife is one of my resident-mates and friends . No names need be given, but if she just started this summer, she's mah 1st year resident buddy I can't think of too many other wives of TX vet dermatologists doing CP residencies at TAMU

 

[libster06]

Where was this, in TX? If its the same person, the wife is one of my resident-mates and friends . No names need be given, but if she just started this summer, she's mah 1st year resident buddy I can't think of too many other wives of TX vet dermatologists doing CP residencies at TAMU

Hehe sounds like the same person... they just moved this past summer I don't know *her* but I worked with/for her husband at a derm specialist in Houston, briefly, before I had to leave to go to vet school. Small world!

 

[Kat0303]

Yup - we have something kind of like this too. One of my resident-mates is technically sponsored by an outside cardiopathology lab, so she does residency but works there too. We will have an incoming resident next summer who is sponsored by the state diagnostic lab, so she will spent more rotations over there, too. I think due to funding issues, some programs are trying to find funding from outside sources for residents, who then take more specific training courses. My one caveat is that while "specializing within your specialty", you would still need to complete the same requirements as all the other residents - which is a LOT of work when you technically have "two employers". Very rewarding, but very busy. My cardiopath colleague is learning this firsthand.



When they say strongly encourage, they mean it in most cases. Yes, if someone wants to do a PhD and you say outright that you are not sure, then they will consider the other person more heavily. Unfortunate fact. Some programs definitely do pressure you.

The proper response is that at this time, if they were to ask you, is that you see "no impediment" to it "right now", and "are interested" in a PhD. Not that you will do one 100%. Don't paint yourself into a corner you cannot get out of unless you are very sure you want to do one, but never openly admit to being unsure. I know it sounds bad but....eh.

This is something to definitely speak directly with the residents about, and ask them specifically if they feel pressured. Sometimes "strongly recommended" means they will beat you with the proverbial stick to get it - occasionally, it is a lot more lax and they understand that people's desires change.

If you have questions about specific programs, you can PM me, just do I don't go blathering on a public forum - I already blathered on more than I should have about one particular one I know about a few, including ones my fellow residents have told me about. Also - definitely ask about the boards situation with regards to PhD. I know programs that do not allow you to take boards until you finish your PhD - which means 3-4 years of doing no diagnostics. Poor setup, IMO.



Necropsy by itself is not the biggest part of it anyway - the vast majority of programs are very histology based. Sure you do necropsy, but you do histo on all your cases (or a lot of them) plus biopsy duty, etc.

In order to get as much histology experience as possible, rounds and seminar are absolutely essential. Make sure the program has structure for their residents to learn. Some programs skimp by on maybe one seminar a week with a couple slides - no way.

We get blasted with histology here Here is an example rounds schedule here (and I will say that, with the national first-time pass average of ACVP boards being ~30%, and it being 90-100% here, this just shows you how much our extensive structure helps).

Monday:
8:00am Derm path slide rounds or journal club
Tuesday:
11:00am State diagnostic lab slide rounds (every other week - we are given 15 slides ahead of time, must fully describe, and then go around the room on the multiheaded scope and present to the group)
Wednesday:
off
Thursday:
11:00 am AFIP rounds (we all gather together and are randomly called on to describe a slide we have never seen before at the multiheaded scope, in front of everyone, in only 15 minutes - VERY good boards practice!!)
Friday:
10:00am Gross quiz - we are presented with 20 images, 30 sec per image, and must come up with a morphologic diagnosis, cause, pathogenesis, whatever the pathologists wants. Then we go around the room and say what we think it is.
11:00am Histopathology seminar: We get 3 -4 slides every week, and again are randomly called up to present. Our writeups are also graded.
1pm Gross rounds : showing everyone what we did in necropsy that week.

So you see, we do a TON of histopath!!! And this is in addition to all the histopath you do on your necropsy cases and biopsy. I know a lot of other programs are just as nicely structured, but some kind of leave you to fend for yourself. I can only speak a little about a few other program on that account, so again your best bet might be contacting actual residents.

I still say one of the biggest things in residency is liking your colleagues. I don't like Texas, but I am truly so happy to be with such a friendly group of people. Even in our rounds (which can often be embarrassing if you dont know what you are looking at! lol) we always encourage each other, help, etc.

I haven't gotten a chance to say thanks SO much for your detailed response. It really helps to hear this stuff first hand rather than reading it off websites.

I'm going through all the different residency places now to try to figure out who requires PhDs, how far they are from home, what their case load is like, etc. So, it's exciting and nerve-racking at the same time for it to be so close to time to really be thinking about where to apply. Like I said I really want to do my externship at a place that I would potentially apply for residency, and right now I'm thinking about NCSU, Auburn, and UGA...and TX seems like a great place as well!. If you have any particular info on Auburn or UGA I'd be happy to hear it! Otherwise, thanks again for all your other help!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hi WhtsThFrequency,

I'm a first-year vet student and after reading your comments in this thread, I realized that I might be more interested in a future pathology than I initially thought. I've been doing better academically than I thought I would be and want to experience the challenge of something difficult after vet school because I always do best when I have adversity to face. My question for you is what types of summer experiences did you have while getting your DVM?

I'm hoping to score a summer position at a zoo this year and I will probably be working at a clinic to save money for next semester's extra expenses, but I have already begun thinking about 2012. One of the things I have thought about doing next year is a 2-week go with RAVS to get field surgery experience (mostly spays/neuters) to get a lot more hands-on learning with tissues and flesh. However, my school does have a clin path student helper job and regular path rounds on certain days during the semester. I figure I could probably get a lot of experience in observing the rounds, but I may not have time to get more involved in the path lab due to family/pet obligations. Would you say that adequate summer experiences and a solid recommendation from your school's head pathologist could make up for not working in a lab during the semester?

BTW, thank you for all the great info you've provided thus far.

My summer experiences were pretty varied. I also had a lot of research experience left over from summers during college, including a third author pub.

I worked as an animal care tech for the teaching a research animals during school (on weekends) and for one summer. Horses, pigs, goats, rodents, dogs, everything. Basic feeding and cleaning but I got to get involved in some research projects - path looooves research.

Next summer I did an externship at the Wake Forest pathology program with their primates. I can give you contacts for that if you would like. Also check out www.acvp.org - they have a nice listing of programs that advertise summer externships. http://www.acvp.org/educators/Externship.cfm

Next summer I did an NIH-funded research project (you'll hear about it at VMRCVM - definitely try to do it). And throughout second and third year I also did the clin-path job.

In addition, I took multiple advanced pathology courses and got a few good path rotations at various places for my elective blocks. I especially recommend Purdue - I had a great time there.

I don't think working during school is absolutely necessary. I assume you are P/C track? If so, you'd have more time to do it than, say, an Eq tracker, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Yes, I do think summer and break experiences plus excelletn LORs would be ok with no during-the-semester experience, because they know some people can swing working PT and some cannot.

And something I realize I may have glossed over - my acceptance into this program with my GPA is the exception, not the rule. Path DOES tend to be more forgiving, but you'd better have a helluva lot of experiences and good LORs to balance it if you have/had my GPA. Because although it is not the most important thing, it IS still an issue.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I haven't gotten a chance to say thanks SO much for your detailed response. It really helps to hear this stuff first hand rather than reading it off websites.

I'm going through all the different residency places now to try to figure out who requires PhDs, how far they are from home, what their case load is like, etc. So, it's exciting and nerve-racking at the same time for it to be so close to time to really be thinking about where to apply. Like I said I really want to do my externship at a place that I would potentially apply for residency, and right now I'm thinking about NCSU, Auburn, and UGA...and TX seems like a great place as well!. If you have any particular info on Auburn or UGA I'd be happy to hear it! Otherwise, thanks again for all your other help!

Haha np. I am trying to recruit people to the dark side

I don't know much about Auburn, but I have heard good things about Georgia.

You're at TN? One of the other new anatomic residents (my office mate who is sitting behind me as we speak lol) went to TN. They have a great program from what I hear.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

you say you didn't have a great GPA but from what I hear it's a lot of brilliant minds over there!

There definitely are some amazing people here. Roy Pool, Joanne Mansell, John Edwards... It's rather intimidating sometimes! But we all get along very well.

 

[twelvetigers]

Stop getting folks all excited about pathology! I don't need the competition.

 

[Kat0303]

Haha np. I am trying to recruit people to the dark side

I don't know much about Auburn, but I have heard good things about Georgia.

You're at TN? One of the other new anatomic residents (my office mate who is sitting behind me as we speak lol) went to TN. They have a great program from what I hear.

Hmm..I can't think of who your office-mate might be..wonder if I know them? Yea, I'm at TN and really like it here..I definitely think they have a great program too. I'll most likely be applying here too when the time comes.

 

[RadRadTerp]

My summer experiences were pretty varied. I also had a lot of research experience left over from summers during college, including a third author pub...

Thanks for the info. I'm actually a mixed-animal tracker. I've mostly worked with small animals, but I have a lot of interest in zoo/wildlife/shelter and conservation. I did have a lot of research experience prior to vet school working at the NIH and in college, so I think the papers I contributed to and that were published did help with my admission to the DVM program.

Yesterday, I ended up taking breaks from studying Physio to look at residency programs that were more clinical/less research and I saw a few that were specifically focused on Zoo/Wildlife Clinical Pathology. Of course, being that there are not many of those programs, I can imagine how hard it is to get in.

As far as preparing, I'm going to talk to the pathologists here and see what I can do to boost my path experiences. Right now, it seems that my GPA so far is going to be one of my strengths (hopefully stays that way!), but path laboratory experience is lacking. I hope that working at the NIAID for my post-bac work and virology work while an undergrad still matter in the end.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Stop getting folks all excited about pathology! I don't need the competition.

Whatever, you are going clin-path, you grease monkey!

I'm pushing the anatomic path side!

Although I have uber respect for CP peeps, such I learned when I was a student tech there. Cytology is damn interesting.

 

[TJenks89]

Hey guys! Is it ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to get a PhD if you are going path? Could you just do a residency and do well in the field? The thought of going for a PhD after a DVM and a residency is pretty daunting.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It depends on what you want to do.

For academic positions at a teaching hospital, it's pretty much necessary (because evidently, they think you can't teach without a PhD...******s).

For industry, it is hit or miss. Depends on if they want you to be a glass pusher, or very involved in the research side, or how high up in the food chain they are looking. If you can get research experience in other ways, such as getting GLP certified, or helping with pubs, they may consider that enough. That's what I plan to do - or get a thesis instead of a non thesis MS (practically every program has in integrated MS in the residency).

For diagnostic labs, not very necessary. They care more about your skill as a diagnostician, not research. This is where I would eventually like to be. Sucks though because especially with the economy now, you basically have to wait for someone to die or retire for a spot.

I would say that not having a PhD cuts employment opportunities in half, in general. But it depends on what you want to do. I do know people in academia that are boarded with no PhD, or PhD and never fully boarded. It can be variable depending on the institution. Some industry labs could not care less.

Check out the ACVP website and browse career opportunities, like I said, it's a mix.

And you wouldn't technically be doing the PhD after residency. Most programs start integrating it in during the last half of second year and your third year, so it really takes 6-7 years for a combined residency/PhD (a PhD on its own averages 5-7, s its equivalent).

The pathology job market is definitely not roses right now - hence why a lot of people are doing the PhD track in order to stay in school and ride it out, or have more clout to come out with. Me....I just don't know if I can commit to living here for 6-7 years. 3, sure....but I'm a bit out of place here (I need mountains) even though the program here is AMAZING.