What happens when someone does not match in Osteopathic match?

[Deepa100]

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Those who don't match can still participate in the allopathic match, correct? If they don't match in that also, can they participate in Osteopathic scramble? When are the scrambles usually done for osteopathic and allopathic sides?

Thanks!

 

[joeDO2]

Those who don't match can still participate in the allopathic match, correct? If they don't match in that also, can they participate in Osteopathic scramble? When are the scrambles usually done for osteopathic and allopathic sides?

Thanks!

if you are an osteopathic student you get 4 "chances":

1. osteopathic match
2. osteopathic scramble
3. allopathic match
4. allopathic scramble

 

[coffeeeandtea]

Those who don't match can still participate in the allopathic match, correct? If they don't match in that also, can they participate in Osteopathic scramble? When are the scrambles usually done for osteopathic and allopathic sides?

Thanks!

you can participate in the allopathic match as long as you applied to and were interviewed for allopathic positions. since the osteopathic scramble takes place before the allopathic match, if you scrambled in the osteo match and successfully got an osteo spot, you would be withdrawn from the allo match. osteo scramble usually happens the week after the match results are released because they tell everyone at the same time on the same day, versus the allopathic match where they tell you on Monday if you matched at all, and then Thursday/Friday where you matched. traditionally if you didn't match you'd then have 4 days to "scramble" into an open spot. now that they have this new SOAP (Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program), the scramble process will be more of a matching process and less of a cold-calling ****show. more info here: http://www.nrmp.org/soap.pdf

timeline: Osteo match/scramble - mid February, Allopathic match/scramble - mid March

 

[bleeker10]

you can participate in the allopathic match as long as you applied to and were interviewed for allopathic positions. since the osteopathic scramble takes place before the allopathic match, if you scrambled in the osteo match and successfully got an osteo spot, you would be withdrawn from the allo match. osteo scramble usually happens the week after the match results are released because they tell everyone at the same time on the same day, versus the allopathic match where they tell you on Monday if you matched at all, and then Thursday/Friday where you matched. traditionally if you didn't match you'd then have 4 days to "scramble" into an open spot. now that they have this new SOAP (Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program), the scramble process will be more of a matching process and less of a cold-calling ****show. more info here: http://www.nrmp.org/soap.pdf

timeline: Osteo match/scramble - mid February, Allopathic match/scramble - mid March

Do you have to actually interview at places to be able to participate? I thought as long as you were registered with the NRMP for the match, you can participate even if you didn't interview anywhere

 

[scotchtapetest]

Do you have to actually interview at places to be able to participate? I thought as long as you were registered with the NRMP for the match, you can participate even if you didn't interview anywhere

Yes, you could "participate" by simply registering, but unless you interviewed at a program they are not going to rank you and therefore, your "participation" would be somewhat pointless. Remember that for all practical purposes, the NRMP is just a computer algorithm (that brings in a lot of $$$ annually). Both applicants and programs must rank each other for a successful match... It is not a one way street! It's a different situation for the scramble/SOAP as there is no real time to interview but I don't think your question was related to that.

 

[ShyRem]

If you pay NRMP for the privilege of submitting a rank list but go on no interviews you are basically paying for the privilege of scrambling into programs that didn't fill. Risky. And some would say a less than intelligent maneuver.

 

[bleeker10]

Yes, you could "participate" by simply registering, but unless you interviewed at a program they are not going to rank you and therefore, your "participation" would be somewhat pointless. Remember that for all practical purposes, the NRMP is just a computer algorithm (that brings in a lot of $$$ annually). Both applicants and programs must rank each other for a successful match... It is not a one way street! It's a different situation for the scramble/SOAP as there is no real time to interview but I don't think your question was related to that.

I wasn't saying to do this as a primary way to match, just as a way to keep doors open in case you didn't match osteo

 

[scotchtapetest]

I wasn't saying to do this as a primary way to match, just as a way to keep doors open in case you didn't match osteo

Apparently you still don't understand how the interview/match process works...

Osteo match is in mid-February...

ALL interviews (osteo and allo) are over by the end of January (with a very few interviewing until beginning of February)... Either way, invites go out way before end of January and definitely before the Osteo match in mid-February...

Therefore, by the time Osteo match is over in mid-February, if you haven't already interviewed at allopathic programs, there is NO way anyone will interview you at that point and as we have told you, if you don't interview you are not going to match to any program. So, it won't keep any doors open unless you interview well before the Osteo match... Now if you are talking about the scramble/SOAP then that's a different story....

I hope this helped... If not, ask more questions....

 

[bleeker10]

Apparently you still don't understand how the interview/match process works...

Osteo match is in mid-February...

ALL interviews (osteo and allo) are over by the end of January (with a very few interviewing until beginning of February)... Either way, invites go out way before end of January and definitely before the Osteo match in mid-February...

Therefore, by the time Osteo match is over in mid-February, if you haven't already interviewed at allopathic programs, there is NO way anyone will interview you at that point and as we have told you, if you don't interview you are not going to match to any program. So, it won't keep any doors open unless you interview well before the Osteo match... Now if you are talking about the scramble/SOAP then that's a different story....

I hope this helped... If not, ask more questions....

Apparently you aren't understanding what I was talking about. I was referring to the scramble/SOAP process, not the actual match. I'm actually well versed in the match process. I was just pointing out an error in the initial post which said you can't participate in the match process if you didn't get any interviews. So even though no programs will rank you, you are still participating in the match albeit SOAP. I wouldn't advocate anyone actually do this though.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Apparently you aren't understanding what I was talking about. I was referring to the scramble/SOAP process, not the actual match. I'm actually well versed in the match process. I was just pointing out an error in the initial post which said you can't participate in the match process if you didn't get any interviews. So even though no programs will rank you, you are still participating in the match albeit SOAP. I wouldn't advocate anyone actually do this though.

As long as you understand, we are cool 👍... There is nothing wrong with a third year not fully understanding how every little thing works when it comes to the Match (I surely didn't last year)... That's why people who have been (almost) through it come on SDN, to help out; no need to be so defensive.... and you are welcome....

BTW, just so you are clear in you future conversations/posts, the match is the match and SOAP is SOAP... The terms are NOT interchangeable.... the only common thing between them is that they are administered/ran by the same organization around the same time of the year.... There is no such a thing as "the match albeit SOAP"....

 

[NewBlood]

As long as you understand, we are cool 👍... There is nothing wrong with a third year not fully understanding how every little thing works when it comes to the Match (I surely didn't last year)... That's why people who have been (almost) through it come on SDN, to help out; no need to be so defensive.... and you are welcome....

BTW, just so you are clear in you future conversations/posts, the match is the match and SOAP is SOAP... The terms are NOT interchangeable.... the only common thing between them is that they are administered/ran by the same organization around the same time of the year.... There is no such a thing as "the match albeit SOAP"....

Wow, really? What motivates someone to be so condescending on an anonymous internet forum? It's like your ego got bruised in a fight you made up in your head. It was clear to me what bleeker was talking about all along.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Wow, really? What motivates someone to be so condescending on an anonymous internet forum? It's like your ego got bruised in a fight you made up in your head. It was clear to me what bleeker was talking about all along.

What part of my post was condescending? And why would my ego get bruised? Because I was right? It was obviously not clear to everyone because I wasn't the only one responding....

Anyways....I'm glad it is/was clear....

 

[bleeker10]

As long as you understand, we are cool 👍... There is nothing wrong with a third year not fully understanding how every little thing works when it comes to the Match (I surely didn't last year)... That's why people who have been (almost) through it come on SDN, to help out; no need to be so defensive.... and you are welcome....

BTW, just so you are clear in you future conversations/posts, the match is the match and SOAP is SOAP... The terms are NOT interchangeable.... the only common thing between them is that they are administered/ran by the same organization around the same time of the year.... There is no such a thing as "the match albeit SOAP"....

I was just pointing out some things that were technically incorrect, just as you were. I think the OP's original question was answered.

 

[Superman DO]

Using my Jesus power resurrection skills. . . .

One question, and maybe somebody might know the answer. . .hypothetically, what if a DO student does not match in the MD match (nor scramble), and never applied to any DO programs. Would that DO student be able to then try to fill one of the many unmatched DO residency spots, say in like family medicine? Or, would he or she be screwed and have to wait until the next application cycle?

 

[FutureInternist]

Using my Jesus power resurrection skills. . . .

One question, and maybe somebody might know the answer. . .hypothetically, what if a DO student does not match in the MD match (nor scramble), and never applied to any DO programs. Would that DO student be able to then try to fill one of the many unmatched DO residency spots, say in like family medicine? Or, would he or she be screwed and have to wait until the next application cycle?

That's risky since the Osteo match & scramble is a month or so before the allo
So if you miss out on the Allo match, there likely will be a very limited number of Osteo spots & even then likely not the ones you want to go to

 

[cliquesh]

Yea, you can go to an AOA post grad training program without entering the aoa match. It happened to a few of my classmates last year. At that point, however, the only spots open will be traditional rotating internships and maybe a few horrible residencies.

620 DOs failed to match in the AOA match last year, and PRE-scramble there were 633 AOA residency spots and 370 TRI spots open.

Last year, 650 DOs failed to match in the Acgme match, and of those 650, 90 SOAPed into an Acgme program. The remainder, I'd imagine, found an AOA spot.

 

[Superman DO]

Here is to hoping my hypothetical situation doesn't play out! Thanks for the answers and stats.

 

[hallowmann]

Yea, you can go to an AOA post grad training program without entering the aoa match. It happened to a few of my classmates last year. At that point, however, the only spots open will be traditional rotating internships and maybe a few horrible residencies.

620 DOs failed to match in the AOA match last year, and PRE-scramble there were 633 AOA residency spots and 370 TRI spots open.

Last year, 650 DOs failed to match in the Acgme match, and of those 650, 90 SOAPed into an Acgme program. The remainder, I'd imagine, found an AOA spot.

So basically 383 of the 590 that failed to match ACGME or AOA (post-scramble and SOAP) potentially managed to find an AOA TRI (and 13 residencies), whereas the remaining 207 probably failed to find anything. Is that right?

That seems unfortunate for those 207. I know that applying a year later significantly reduces your chances of matching, so what do you guys think is the main reason these people didn't match? Is it strictly just low board scores (if so how low)? or did people just not apply to attainable programs?

 

[Rickettsia]

What if a DO wants to scramble into a DO program that's a different specialty from their original goal? Would they be able to do so without having letters of recommendation from the specialty they're scrambling into? For example, if a DO student is planning on derm all along and then doesn't match derm, could they scramble into DO FM without having prepared an application for that specialty?

 

[NYEMMED]

What if a DO wants to scramble into a DO program that's a different specialty from their original goal? Would they be able to do so without having letters of recommendation from the specialty they're scrambling into? For example, if a DO student is planning on derm all along and then doesn't match derm, could they scramble into DO FM without having prepared an application for that specialty?

They can provided there isnt a better candidate for that spot... Programs want to fill their spots, they will take almost anyone if they are very short of interns

 

[cliquesh]

So basically 383 of the 590 that failed to match ACGME or AOA (post-scramble and SOAP) potentially managed to find an AOA TRI (and 13 residencies), whereas the remaining 207 probably failed to find anything. Is that right?

That seems unfortunate for those 207. I know that applying a year later significantly reduces your chances of matching, so what do you guys think is the main reason these people didn't match? Is it strictly just low board scores (if so how low)? or did people just not apply to attainable programs?

It's less than 207. It's probably more like 20 to 100. Some of the DOs that failed matching in the AOA match also failed to match in the acgme match, so you counted them twice. Moreover, some residency/internships are offered outside of the match, so there are actually more post graduate training positions than what is listed by the nrmp and aoa. These programs are not desireable, however. They are typically FMG slave workshops.

About 20% of any given DO class will have to scramble/soap, but nearly everyone will find a post graduate training position. Everyone in my class found a post graduate position. The people I know that had trouble finding a training program failed boards multiple times; not once, but several times.

Most people I know that had to scramble either had subpar board scores for their speciality or they only ranked a few programs even though they interviewed at more programs.

Matching is mostly about board scores. If you have scores that are about average for your speciality you'll be fine.

What if a DO wants to scramble into a DO program that's a different specialty from their original goal? Would they be able to do so without having letters of recommendation from the specialty they're scrambling into? For example, if a DO student is planning on derm all along and then doesn't match derm, could they scramble into DO FM without having prepared an application for that specialty?

Yes to all of your questions.

 

[SurgeDO]

It's less than 207. It's probably more like 20 to 100. Some of the DOs that failed matching in the AOA match also failed to match in the acgme match, so you counted them twice. Moreover, some residency/internships are offered outside of the match, so there are actually more post graduate training positions than what is listed by the nrmp and aoa. These programs are not desireable, however. They are typically FMG slave workshops.

About 20% of any given DO class will have to scramble/soap, but nearly everyone will find a post graduate training position. Everyone in my class found a post graduate position. The people I know that had trouble finding a training program failed boards multiple times; not once, but several times.

Most people I know that had to scramble either had subpar board scores for their speciality or they only ranked a few programs even though they interviewed at more programs.

Matching is mostly about board scores. If you have scores that are about average for your speciality you'll be fine.



Yes to all of your questions.

i am hesitant in believing this. would you mind providing a source or some reasoning as to why you think this?

my school has been consistently placing >90% of its graduates into their first choice residency program.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Yeah, 20% unmatched sounds a bit rich to me....

 

[cliquesh]

https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013sklstats.html for the AOA match 2178 matched and a total of 2799 participated for an overall AOA match rate of 78%.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2013.pdf page 15 says the Acgme match rate for DOs in 75.4%.

 

[koan]

For the AOA data, does "previous" refer to those who failed to match in 2012 or those who matched/SOAP for TY and reapplied for advanced programs?

 

[cliquesh]

For the AOA data, does "previous" refer to those who failed to match in 2012 or those who matched/SOAP for TY and reapplied for advanced programs?

2012 graduates.

 

[hallowmann]

2012 graduates.

So say someone does fine in their boards, but they need to do a TRI because of their state requiring it and not recognizing all accepted Res42 applicants :shakes fist at PA/POMA:, will that person have any harder a time matching say ACGME the next year than an applicant who's applying during their fourth year?

 

[cliquesh]

So say someone does fine in their boards, but they need to do a TRI because of their state requiring it and not recognizing all accepted Res42 applicants :shakes fist at PA/POMA:, will that person have any harder a time matching say ACGME the next year than an applicant who's applying during their fourth year?

yes, they will have a harder time. Hopefully, because the merger failed, the state requirements will end.

 

[MedGrl@2022]

So I just found this... http://www.coloradodo.org/About Us_files/FAQs About the AOA-ACGME.pdf

Is this true... "Currently, there are 11,025 AOA training positions and more than 4,000 DO graduates each year. Osteopathic programs alone could not support the demand to train more DOs and help fill the upcoming physician shortage."

Essentially, all DO students should be fine without the ACGME right?

 

[cliquesh]

So I just found this... http://www.coloradodo.org/About Us_files/FAQs About the AOA-ACGME.pdf

Is this true... "Currently, there are 11,025 AOA training positions and more than 4,000 DO graduates each year. Osteopathic programs alone could not support the demand to train more DOs and help fill the upcoming physician shortage."

Essentially, all DO students should be fine without the ACGME right?

I think you got your answer in the other thread, but there were 4913 DO graduates this year, 2287 AOA residency spots and 613 AOA internship positions, for a total of 2900 AOA positions offered this year. So, no, DOs would be in trouble without the Acgme.

Take a look at this to get an idea of what the AOA has to offer https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013prgstats.html

There will probably be 6000 DOs/year when you graduate.

 

[FutureDO2016]

So what AOA programs do not use ERAS to match students and have their own application/interview system?

 

[as90]

Given the large # of people who do MD residencies....

As DO's, are we better off getting a spot, considering the fact that so many AOA programs pop up after match time and go unfilled (like FM programs in undesirable areas) etc.

 

[hallowmann]

So what AOA programs do not use ERAS to match students and have their own application/interview system?

I would check out that eras list of residency programs (Google it). Programs listed as "NP" (Not Participating) may not be using eras, but who knows how up to date that is. At least you could use it as a place to start and then contact the programs for a definitive answer.

 

[NurWollen]

I would check out that eras list of residency programs (Google it). Programs listed as "NP" (Not Participating) may not be using eras, but who knows how up to date that is. At least you could use it as a place to start and then contact the programs for a definitive answer.

I wonder though if a lot of the programs listed as 'NP' are participating and just haven't gotten their act together yet.

 

[hallowmann]

I wonder though if a lot of the programs listed as 'NP' are participating and just haven't gotten their act together yet.

Honestly that's a possibility, so the only way to be sure is to contact them directly. At least you can usually be confident that if they're listed as P they're probably participating in the match.

Also, on a separate note, I've heard from 4th yrs that many programs are expecting a combined match of sorts as soon as next year (they basically told students this was their last year in the NMS match), but who knows what that means.

 

[NurWollen]

Honestly that's a possibility, so the only way to be sure is to contact them directly. At least you can usually be confident that if they're listed as P they're probably participating in the match.

Also, on a separate note, I've heard from 4th yrs that many programs are expecting a combined match of sorts as soon as next year (they basically told students this was their last year in the NMS match), but who knows what that means.

I wonder if all the programs listed as 'NP' on ERAS are listed as such because they're not sure if they're going to get ACGME accreditation or not. What's the soonest they're eligible? I imagine some will be ready right out of the gates. Current dual programs, for example. In theory they could just drop the NMS match whenever, right?

 

[hallowmann]

I wonder if all the programs listed as 'NP' on ERAS are listed as such because they're not sure if they're going to get ACGME accreditation or not. What's the soonest they're eligible? I imagine some will be ready right out of the gates. Current dual programs, for example. In theory they could just drop the NMS match whenever, right?

I think the earliest it could happen given the applications and getting the sponsor registered would be July/August (applications started already).

Supposedly there was a a contract of some kind signed with NMS before the merger was agreed to, and that has to expire before the AOA can make a deal with the NRMP for any of its programs that aren't ACGME accredited yet. Dual programs can drop out of the NMS match whenever they want, but usually it's in their interest to stay in it, because they tend to get more DO applicants as a result.