What happens when you mess up BADLY?

[chickenlittle]

Hmm, I see. Do you think that instead of recommending pet insurance I should just recommend that people look into it? Anything I could tell them that would help them make the decision?

My standard pet insurance spiel, given only if owners ask about it, is "Well, like any other insurance, it's designed so that the companies make a profit. I've seen a couple of pets that have reaped huge benefits from it, like this one client I had whose Great Dane puppy needed THREE foreign body surgeries in its first year of life. For most people, though, the amount you'll pay in will be more than the plan will ever pay out, because the plans don't cover wellness care and they typically have a lot of exclusions. Check into it and see what's available, but definitely do your homework. Most of the time, you'd probably come out ahead by putting that same amount of money every month into a savings account that you could have access to in case of an emergency or serious illness."

FWIW.

And, as Minnerbelle said, prices for certain breeds are significantly higher and some companies will have a list of exclusions that covers the most common problems for each breed. There's a lot of variation out there and each company is always changing their policies, so people just need to do their research carefully.

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[Jamr0ckin]

I guess I don't agree about the pet insurance. My premiums for my 3 dogs are under $400/year for each dog. I have a $200 deductible per condition and then I get 80% back. In 1 illness each, I have made back the deductible. 2 of my dogs have had surgeries that normally cost $1500- 2000 out of pocket and I paid less than $500 for each of them. If you are going to spend the money anyways, pet insurance will save you lots of money. I have seen dogs be able to get life saving procedures because they only had to pay a small percentage of an enormous bill. Sure, I paid $325 for one of my hounds that hasn't had a claim yet, but the safeguard of knowing if he has a foreign body or an orthopedic issue, it's not going to break my bank to have the best care for him. There are companies out there that aren't great, and then there are some really good ones. I don't recommend VPI because they set price limits on items and then pay a percentage instead of pay back a percentage of the overall bill.

 

[dyachei]

There are also some that pay for wellness visits and vaccines.

 

[DVMDream]

I would actually like to see more pets on pet insurance. Make it more like what is going on in the UK where the majority of animals have pet insurance. I think it would help both vets and pets if we could increase the number of pets on pet insurance. We would possibly be able to do more diagnostics if owners knew that they would get back around 50-100% of what they are spending.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I wish everyone would be on pet insurance. It certainly makes things much easier for me. And it will absolutely be worth it for anyone who will go forward with tx anyway for most things. All it takes is one major surgical issue or immune mediated disease or something in the lifetime for the payout to cover your premium costs. But I truly believe it really depends on the clientele. For some people, they only expect to pay maximum of $400 per year on their dog including sick visits. And they grumble all the time about costs of everything. Sure, it's tempting to just tell these people to get pet insurance, but I don't think it ends up helping overall.

Location also plays a huge role in premium prices as well because the cost of care is higher. In my high cost of living area where 2 view xrays costs $250, the people who can really use the insurance are those who can't afford much diagnostics at all, and they usually can't afford the premium costs. A cat pyo estimate is $3000-4000 in my area. When I have the owner who can't afford anything more than $100 in exam and rabies/fvrcp per year and that is all they will ever do other than come in for outpatient care with minimal diagnostics for illnesses, these people really can't afford the premiums for illness coverage insurance plus wellness, and they absolutely can't afford plans that include wellness.

 

[DVMDream]

I looked up an insurance plan for my 5 year old cat, including wellness, the cost was something like $38/month. Granted that's with a vet student discount of I think 10%. But still adding on 10% to that, really not a bad deal. And that was for the most expensive plan they had.

 

[Starry-chan]

...and some companies will have a list of exclusions that covers the most common problems for each breed.

I went with Petplan because they cover hereditary conditions (hip dysplasia, vWD, PRA, etc. etc. etc.) and they cover a lot of other stuff too, like cancer and broken bones.

@Jamr0ckin Yeah that's basically why I wanted pet insurance. I know that I may or may not make back my premiums but I am okay with that as long as I can have the peace of mind that if something catastrophic happens to my Corgi, there is a good chance my insurance would reimburse me a significant amount of money.

@DVMDream For the record, I'm paying about $32/month for a 5 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi

Location also plays a huge role in premium prices as well because the cost of care is higher. In my high cost of living area where 2 view xrays costs $250, the people who can really use the insurance are those who can't afford much diagnostics at all, and they usually can't afford the premium costs. A cat pyo estimate is $3000-4000 in my area. When I have the owner who can't afford anything more than $100 in exam and rabies/fvrcp per year and that is all they will ever do other than come in for outpatient care with minimal diagnostics for illnesses, these people really can't afford the premiums for illness coverage insurance plus wellness, and they absolutely can't afford plans that include wellness.

Ah, I see. That is a good example of pet insurance being useless. I feel for those people and I am thankful to not be in their situation.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

I liked up an insurance plan for my 5 year old cat, including wellness, the cost was something like $38/month. Granted that's with a vet student discount of I think 10%. But still adding on 10% to that, really not a bad deal. And that was for the most expensive plan they had.

What's the plan you have? Luckily, the service dog organization has a fund to help offset the cost of anything major. They are pretty amazing. But I'd like to research this some more.

 

[DVMDream]

What's the plan you have? Luckily, the service dog organization has a fund to help offset the cost of anything major. They are pretty amazing. But I'd like to research this some more.

I didn't end up getting the plan. I know, bad me. I just looked it up to see what it would cost. I do plan on getting her on insurance once I graduate vet school.

It was through petplan that I got that cost.

 

[Starry-chan]

Oh and my Corgi has only been insured since February, and I've gotten a total of about $500 back from two claims. I've only paid around $288 in premiums so far (I'm billed monthly.) So, whoo! I'm ahead of the game.....for now

 

[hazelmoo]

I went with Petplan because they cover hereditary conditions (hip dysplasia, vWD, PRA, etc. etc. etc.) and they cover a lot of other stuff too, like cancer and broken bones.

@Jamr0ckin Yeah that's basically why I wanted pet insurance. I know that I may or may not make back my premiums but I am okay with that as long as I can have the peace of mind that if something catastrophic happens to my Corgi, there is a good chance my insurance would reimburse me a significant amount of money.

@DVMDream For the record, I'm paying about $32/month for a 5 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi



Ah, I see. That is a good example of pet insurance being useless. I feel for those people and I am thankful to not be in their situation.

I have corgis too!!

I wish I could afford pet insurance, but working at a vet I get a lot of stuff for super cheap (or even free) anyways so I don't really need it. The new-ish vets practice spaying/neutering on all of my adoption cats which helps with costs A LOT (I only pay for drugs - at cost), and I pay cost plus 15% for vaccines, tests, meds, and whatever else. The doctors do exams for me for free, and anything I can do myself I can do for free as long as I pay for materials and I'm not on the clock. It helps immensely!

 

[twelvetigers]

My pet insurance is me being a vet. Is that bad?

 

[DVMDream]

I just looked it up again...

$50 deductible with 100% reimbursement, not including any vet student or veterinary discount is $43.94/month. There are obviously much cheaper options that go down into the $15-18 range per month.
The one I picked has a maximum of $22,000 per year in veterinary costs. The lowest they have is a $10,000/year in veterinary costs.

You can choose your reimbursement to be 80%, 90% or 100%.

You can choose a deductible of $200. $100 or $50.

Clearly the cost goes up as you choose a better plan that covers more, but you can get an 80% reimbursement, with $200 deductible and $10,000/year in vet costs for $17.15/month (well, for a 5 year old, domestic shorthair cat).

There will still be clients out there that can't even afford that which I completely understand, but I do think that we don't inform clients often of all the options available with pet insurance.

 

[hazelmoo]

My pet insurance is me being a vet. Is that bad?

That's how it will be for me when I'm a vet

 

[DVMDream]

My pet insurance is me being a vet. Is that bad?

Nope.

Are you able to treat your own pets for free?

 

[twelvetigers]

Nope.

Are you able to treat your own pets for free?

I have to pay for supplies and meds and stuff, but not services. And then it's at cost. So as long as it's something we do (like not a TPLO) then it's okay.

 

[Starry-chan]

Luckily, the service dog organization has a fund to help offset the cost of anything major. They are pretty amazing. But I'd like to research this some more.

That's great. I guess they figure that if they put so much effort into training these dogs that it behooves them to keep them alive?

I have corgis too!! I wish I could afford pet insurance, but working at a vet I get a lot of stuff for super cheap (or even free) anyways so I don't really need it. The new-ish vets practice spaying/neutering on all of my adoption cats which helps with costs A LOT (I only pay for drugs - at cost), and I pay cost plus 15% for vaccines, tests, meds, and whatever else. The doctors do exams for me for free, and anything I can do myself I can do for free as long as I pay for materials and I'm not on the clock. It helps immensely!

That's awesome that you have Corgis and that working at a vet's office makes it so you can afford lots of care that you maybe couldn't otherwise. And that's cool that you can get spays/neuters done low-cost. My vet does something like that too. I think they only have a minimal charge for anesthesia. Everything else is free.


@twelvetigers I don't think your pets will ever have to worry about not getting care

 

[DVMDream]

I have to pay for supplies and meds and stuff, but not services. And then it's at cost. So as long as it's something we do (like not a TPLO) then it's okay.

That's nice.

 

[Minnerbelle]

My pet insurance is me being a vet. Is that bad?

That's how it is for my cats. My services are free, bloodwork is free, drugs are about as cheap as it gets. Specialist services are fairly well discounted for me. It will absolutely be cheaper for me to not pay for insurance unless I got extremely unlucky. I did look pretty thoroughly for my young cat, and I couldn't find a plan that would be worth it.

If I had a dog, I would get insurance. I can think of multiple things that would make it worth it even with my discounts.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

If I had a dog, I would get insurance. I can think of multiple things that would make it worth it even with my discounts.

I could see another thread coming out of this. Recommendations from vets/vet students of the best plans after being around the industry for a bit.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

I have Petplan as well. I got about $4500 back last year.

 

[dyachei]

yep - I'm my own insurance plan for vet care. That being said, it really depends on which insurance you get.

What sucks is that even though referral services are discounted in my area for vets, it's still really expensive.

 

[DVMDream]

That's how it is for my cats. My services are free, bloodwork is free, drugs are about as cheap as it gets. Specialist services are fairly well discounted for me. It will absolutely be cheaper for me to not pay for insurance unless I got extremely unlucky. I did look pretty thoroughly for my young cat, and I couldn't find a plan that would be worth it.

If I had a dog, I would get insurance. I can think of multiple things that would make it worth it even with my discounts.

This is another reason why I am debating if it is worth getting insurance for my cat. I'd like to see where I end up working and what kinds of discounts I might already be provided to determine if it really is worth it.

Add in a few other bits about how my cat is kitty demon and treating her for any chronic condition might not be successful, not sure the insurance is worth it.

I'd really want the insurance for something like a HBC event, or a random injury or one-time illness.

 

[dyachei]

This is another reason why I am debating if it is worth getting insurance for my cat. I'd like to see where I end up working and what kinds of discounts I might already be provided to determine if it really is worth it.

Add in a few other bits about how my cat is kitty demon and treating her for any chronic condition might not be successful, not sure the insurance is worth it.

I'd really want the insurance for something like a HBC event, or a random injury or one-time illness.

I think when my cats are about 9-10 I will. because kidney disease and hyperthyroidism.

 

[DVMDream]

I think when my cats are about 9-10 I will. because kidney disease and hyperthyroidism.

Yeah, I just wonder with my cat about some of the chronic things. I am not going to be able to poke her with anything. So diabetes treatment would be out of the question. I could probably manage CKD with her until at least the point she would start needing SQ fluids, I wouldn't be able to do that.

I could do treatments for hyperthyroidism. That wouldn't be as big of an issue. I can pill her. It is just poking her that would not happen.

I often worry about her getting sick because there is no way an IV catheter is getting into her without sedation, or her being really damn ill.

I'm currently bad because she is due for vaccines, but yeah, poking her is not a fun task.

 

[hazelmoo]

I think when my cats are about 9-10 I will. because kidney disease and hyperthyroidism.

Both of which my 18 year old cat Apollo had right before he died... Even with all of my discounts, I ended up paying around $300 for fluids, multiple rounds of blood work, hospitalization, etc after all was said and done. And that was with an even bigger discount since no one had to touch him because I practically lived at the clinic for 3 days taking care of him.

 

[hazelmoo]

Yeah, I just wonder with my cat about some of the chronic things. I am not going to be able to poke her with anything. So diabetes treatment would be out of the question. I could probably manage CKD with her until at least the point she would start needing SQ fluids, I wouldn't be able to do that.

I could do treatments for hyperthyroidism. That wouldn't be as big of an issue. I can pill her. It is just poking her that would not happen.

I often worry about her getting sick because there is no way an IV catheter is getting into her without sedation, or her being really damn ill.

I'm currently bad because she is due for vaccines, but yeah, poking her is not a fun task.

Is she a calico?

 

[DVMDream]

Is she a calico?

Nope.

She is all gray. Has fur like a Russian blue, but not a Russian blue.

 

[dyachei]

Well, I specifically say hyperthyroidism because I would want to do the iodine. And with renal disease I would want to get the food etc before hand. So if I start paying at ~10 years old, I think it makes sense

 

[DVMDream]

Well, I specifically say hyperthyroidism because I would want to do the iodine. And with renal disease I would want to get the food etc before hand. So if I start paying at ~10 years old, I think it makes sense

Yeah. I would like to do the iodine, just not sure how well that would go over. I think she would be ok, but I could see her doing a "I'm not going to eat" during the days following where she can't come home. And she'd probably try to bite everyone.

Why is my cat such a brat? It'd be much easier if she were nice.

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

I think when my cats are about 9-10 I will. because kidney disease and hyperthyroidism.

Providers don't deny you coverage for age/pre-existing conditions?

 

[dyachei]

Providers don't deny you coverage for age/pre-existing conditions?

no, they dont deny on age (does tend to be a little more expensive). and I would hopefully get in before it became a pre-existing condition.

 

[deleted498041]

I don't think I'd ever put my dogs and cats on pet insurance, but you bet I have all of my horses on it and I've made use of that insurance many times.

Well, I specifically say hyperthyroidism because I would want to do the iodine. And with renal disease I would want to get the food etc before hand. So if I start paying at ~10 years old, I think it makes sense

So, I know the I-131 carries a small risk of inducing hypothyroidism... would insurance plans cover that in the event it happened?

 

[dyachei]

I don't think I'd ever put my dogs and cats on pet insurance, but you bet I have all of my horses on it and I've made use of that insurance many times.

So, I know the I-131 carries a small risk of inducing hypothyroidism... would insurance plans cover that in the event it happened?

they should. If you signed up before proceeding or being diagnosed with thyroid disease

 

[deleted498041]

I don't think I'd ever put my dogs and cats on pet insurance, but you bet I have all of my horses on it and I've made use of that insurance many times.

Whoops. I typed that in the text box without posting it and started researching pet insurance and now I'm actually considering something like Petplan... Currently eating my words.

 

[deleted498041]

they should. If you signed up before proceeding or being diagnosed with thyroid disease

Good to know, thanks!

 

[dyachei]

I hear good things about Embrace. But I don't have insurance.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Well, I specifically say hyperthyroidism because I would want to do the iodine. And with renal disease I would want to get the food etc before hand. So if I start paying at ~10 years old, I think it makes sense

Well, I specifically say hyperthyroidism because I would want to do the iodine. And with renal disease I would want to get the food etc before hand. So if I start paying at ~10 years old, I think it makes sense

My older kitty of unknown age (had a TT4 of 18 at an estimated 5 yo so something is wrong there...) in the 5 yrs I've had her has had maybe $10-12k in services managed by 3 internists, 2 cardiologists, a couple radiologists, 2 dentists and a bunch of residents. I probably paid about $5000 out of pocket. Needless to say insurance is a lost cause for her.

Of that, Iodine with 2 weeks of medical boarding included (I was a mean mom and just kept her there rather than taking her home after 3 days since it worked out well with my externship) AND scintigraphy was like $1500 at like one of the best if not the best private practice specialty center in the country. It was a really really good deal. I honestly wouldn't mind doing that without insurance given the premiums I've been presented for my other healthy young cat.

I have a way of getting certain prescription foods for free (legally without breaking any rules), and bloodwork is free. So I don't mind paying for CKD out of pocket. Heart failure I guess is the only thing where periodic cardio visits will be costly. Even then, my last echo plus pro-NT-BNP only cost me like $150... even though I had expected $500. I keep finding really random discounts that I somehow qualify for. We'll see how long that keeps up.

Hopefully my young male healthy cat doesn't end up needing a PU, linear FB sx, iodine, AND lymphoma tx or something...

 

[dyachei]

Yeah, but if I start at 10 years old, the likelihood of me paying more in insurance than med costs decreases substantially.

My last mess of a cat had heartworm disease, hyperthyroidism, and a carcinoma at the end. We didn't do iodine because of her age and I regret that (although it wasn't my decision).

An echo here would be decently priced and I can run a pro-BNP at cost.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Yeah, but if I start at 10 years old, the likelihood of me paying more in insurance than med costs decreases substantially.

My last mess of a cat had heartworm disease, hyperthyroidism, and a carcinoma at the end. We didn't do iodine because of her age and I regret that (although it wasn't my decision).

An echo here would be decently priced and I can run a pro-BNP at cost.

Oh I wasn't discouraging you at all, it very well may make sense for you. My point was more that for my precious favorite cat in the world for whom insurance made a lot of sense, that boat totally sailed a long time ago. There is no way she is over 15 years of age, so the waiting till 10 yo even if I knew her true age would have worked for her. Hopefully that works out for you.

For the high cost of insurance costs in my area, I can't justify it for my less loved young kitty who I love but am not pathologically attached to. I would be able to provide fairly normal standard of care and be fine with it not going over the top with him.

 

[cowgirla]

I've thought about insurance on my pets a few times, but honestly I can't justify the premiums. I don't pay for food, bloodwork, rads/us, in house surgery, meds, etc, so would only need if something requiring a specialist (MRI, echo, chemo/radiation, etc) comes up.

So instead I keep money in a savings account ear marked for the pups. It may not be enough to cover everything right off the bat but hopefully it will make enough of a dent if needed

 

[Starry-chan]

Are there any stipulations that keep pet insurance from reimbursing you when you are both your pet's owner and the vet that performed the treatment?

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

My older kitty of unknown age (had a TT4 of 18 at an estimated 5 yo so something is wrong there...) in the 5 yrs I've had her has had maybe $10-12k in services managed by 3 internists, 2 cardiologists, a couple radiologists, 2 dentists and a bunch of residents. I probably paid about $5000 out of pocket. Needless to say insurance is a lost cause for her.

Wow, that sentence was a total mind **** the first time I read it.

 

[twelvetigers]

Had her has had

Had her has had

 

[wheelin2vetmed]

Had her has had

Had her has had

Had her has had

Hadder has had

Hadder ass hat

Oops.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Had her has had

Had her has had

You missed one.

I have had her has had

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

You can even mess up even after death.

I had a neuro case case on a weekend once - rabies was a differential but very, verrrry low index of suspicion in my opinion. I took and submitted a wrong/incomplete part of the brain to the state lab. It was my first weekend on as an attending in a different state (different labs sometimes want slightly different sections but that is not an excuse), and I don't know what was going through my head. Rabies cases were like second nature to me based on where I trained, but for whatever reason I blanked and dropped the ball.

Everyone in contact with that animal had to have post-exposure vaccination series simple because it was a a "not negative" (i.e. what they tested was negative but since they didn't receive a complete samples, they couldn't rule it out 100%.) I felt like a complete idiot.

 

[twelvetigers]

You missed one.

I have had her has had

The first one was a contraction!

 

[Starry-chan]

You can even mess up even after death.

I had a neuro case case on a weekend once - rabies was a differential but very, verrrry low index of suspicion in my opinion. I took and submitted a wrong/incomplete part of the brain to the state lab. It was my first weekend on as an attending pathologist in a different state (different labs sometimes want slightly different sections but that is not an excuse), and I don't know what was going through my head. Rabies cases were like second nature to me based on where I trained, but for whatever reason I blanked and dropped the ball.

Everyone in contact with that animal had to have post-exposure vaccination series simple because it was a a "not negative" (i.e. what they tested was negative but since they didn't receive a complete samples, they couldn't rule it out 100%.) I felt like a complete idiot.

What happens when somebody in the veterinary profession has been exposed to a rabid, or possibly rabid animal. Do they still have to get the post exposure vaccinations or does the vaccinations they get before starting their work cover them.

 

[dyachei]

What happens when somebody in the veterinary profession has been exposed to a rabid, or possibly rabid animal. Do they still have to get the post exposure vaccinations or does the vaccinations they get before starting their work cover them.

you still have to get post exposure vaccines, just less of them