What in da HAIIILLLL has happaned to AMSA??

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dksamp

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Hello folks,
Derek Sampson here. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I am SHOCKED and APPALED at what AMSA (the American Medical Student Association) has evolved into. I remember back in the day when AMSA used to be about supporting medical students and medical student issues. Nowadays, they have evolved into this borderline-communistic LEFT-WING political organization that is SOO far removed from REALITY, I hardly recognize it anymore. Some of AMSA's positions:

1. They suport socialized medicine (ala Canada), but don't have the sense to articulate how you are going to PAY for it

2. They had the NERVE, the GALL, the BALLS, and the AUDACITY OF IT ALL to NOT support Tort reform, and they have in essence taken the side of the trial lawyers...Here's an excerpt from their website:

http://www.amsa.org//hp/medmal.cfml
here's an piece of it....
"c. [AMSA] OPPOSES simplified approaches to malpractice reform such as only caps on "non-economic damages" and the restriction of punitive damages as a sole solution to malpractice reform; (2003)"

They almost had to bring in the crash cart for me when I saw that.

Now as a physician in private practice who has to pay a $14,000.00+ malpractice PREMIUM (which will likely go UP next hear), Their positions are incopngruent with the REALITY in which we live in here in the USA. Now, I fully understand the wide-eyed idealism that often accompanies being a medical student, but that idealism starts to unravel when you enter residency and DEFINITELY ENDS when U face the REAL WORLD of private practice.

I am in NO WAY saying that we have a perfect system, we DAMN-SURE DON'T. And it has TONS of flaws, but their approach IMHO, is so full of pie-in-the-sky BULL$hit, and lacks BASIC common sense and a LACK of basic understanding of how the real world works, and how real world ECONOMICS work.

Is anyone else in here feelin' me on this issue?? Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion. PEACE!!

-Derek Sampson, MD
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AMSA has also been instrumental in instituting the 80 hour work week for students and residents, and are lobbying hard for federal legislation to support it.

If that's not supporting medical students, I don't know what is.

AMSA broke away from the AMA in the 1960s. It's ideals as an organization haven't changed that much since then. It is still an extremely strong student organization with a very large member base.

For those who find its politics too left wing, there is the student section of the AMA, which is much more conservative.
 
Who would one get in contact with in order to revoke their AMSA membership?

Last year they came out with a statement saying that they were against the war, as if they spoke for every one of their members.
 
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Yup. AMSA is probably one of the most left-wing organizations out there. Even though med students on a whole are probably more liberal then the average person, I think that the AMSA administration and hard-core AMSA members fall more along the spectrum of the extreme left. They really don't focus as much as they should do on medical students issues either, they are too caught up with politics. That being said, I still joined them first year because they gave me a free book with membership and their journal, The New Physician, oftentimes has some nice articles to read.
 
Originally posted by ckent
Yup. AMSA is probably one of the most left-wing organizations out there. Even though med students on a whole are probably more liberal then the average person, I think that the AMSA administration and hard-core AMSA members fall more along the spectrum of the extreme left. They really don't focus as much as they should do on medical students issues either, they are too caught up with politics. That being said, I still joined them first year because they gave me a free book with membership and their journal, The New Physician, oftentimes has some nice articles to read.
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This sounds like McCarthy revived.

Extreme-left? Come on. Out here (the Netherlands), we have parties that openly adore Stalin, Lenin and Marx.
THAT is extreme-left. By the way, since I don't want to scare you of, those parties aren't in parliament and never will be, nor do they have any major influences (they're limited to a few thousand members in a 16-million people country).

But calling AMSA 'extreme-left' goes a bit far.
 
Your gripe about AMSA's stance on tort reform is misguided. Just read your excerpt again. AMSA argues that tort reform is not the SOLE answer to the medical malpractice crisis. This is dead on accurate. Without insurance reform/regulation, tort reform will only be a band-aid solution that offers little help.
 
I joined AMSA at the beginning of M1 because I didn't know much about them, it was cheap, and I wanted their free newsletter. But as the year has progressed and I have seen what they are actually all about (political agendas), I am seriously considering revoking my membership just so that my name won't be associated with that group.

By the way, I don't like the 80 hour/wk policy. Everyone with half a brain that enters med school knows that they will have to work long hours and make personal sacrifices. I can see myself in a surgical residency in a few years, and missing out on important events because I have exceeded my time limit. How is it possible that we will acquire the same skills that our predicessors have by working less hours? To make a long story short, I think that it is a p*ssy law that will end up hurting us more than helping us in the long run.

As for the AMSA, they are a bunch of uber-left wing crazies that are not out to improve the lives of medical students or practicing physicians. That's my 3 cents hope I didn't piss anybody off.
 
I happen to agree that AMSA has gone too far to the left. I wonder if they are backing John Edwards and his efforts to destroy any hopes of Tort Reform that we may have.
 
The 80 work week thing is HUGE!!! How are we going to learn as much as our predecessors working less hours? The answer is quite simple...working SMARTER!!! How much do you learn dog tired? The answer is truly very little.

As for AMSA, almost the entire medical profession is somewhat to the left of the overall society so to expect an organization made up of medical students to be any different doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 
Originally posted by descartes


By the way, I don't like the 80 hour/wk policy. Everyone with half a brain that enters med school knows that they will have to work long hours and make personal sacrifices. I can see myself in a surgical residency in a few years, and missing out on important events because I have exceeded my time limit. How is it possible that we will acquire the same skills that our predicessors have by working less hours? To make a long story short, I think that it is a p*ssy law that will end up hurting us more than helping us in the long run.
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Why don't you post this on the general residency forum board and see how many people who are actually residents right now have a beef with only having to work 80 hours a week. You have bought into the myth that residency is about killing yourself with work and if you aren't exhausted to the point of being incoherent half the time that you must not be working hard enough. It is dangerous to have people on the job who are not well rested. No other profession comes so close to hazing as the medical profession does with its new graduates.

I'd be interested to see how you feel in a few years about 100+ hours of work a week.
 
Originally posted by Sheon
As for AMSA, almost the entire medical profession is somewhat to the left of the overall society so to expect an organization made up of medical students to be any different doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Left?? Which medical profession have you been looking at?
 
By the way, I just wanted to point out that the Canadian health system is not Socialized medicine.

Also, the AMSA quote should be carefully read. AMSA opposes caps on non-economic damages as the SOLE solution to malpractice reform. That makes a lot of sense. AMSA does not oppose tort reform, they oppose tort reform as the one and only solution. Malpractice reform has to go beyond just tort reform. It has to include less medical errors and the systems to support that effort, more control on who gets a license to practice (better background checks), less lawsuits (patient education and a better patient-doctor relationship), and a better system that will filter out frivolous lawsuits from the ones that have merit.
 
I hear that at the AMSA convention this fall they will be worshipping chairman Mao.
 
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Originally posted by Sheon
As for AMSA, almost the entire medical profession is somewhat to the left of the overall society so to expect an organization made up of medical students to be any different doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Which country is this.....the medical profession is LEFT?!?!?!??? Boy, I guess I missed that boat considering Im a son of a physician and hes been a conservative for as long as I can remember....and his partners, and other physicians I know. In fact Dr. Dean (I find it funny he got beat so badly) is probably one of the first Liberal physicians Ive heard of.
Isnt the Republican party, as described by liberals, as the party of the rich? Well, what tax bracket do most doctors fit in?
stomper
 
I think the liberal/conservative issue in medicine somewhat parallels the academic/private practice medicine. Academia, medicine or anywhere else, will always be more liberal.
 
Originally posted by Shinken
By the way, I just wanted to point out that the Canadian health system is not Socialized medicine.
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I could be wrong, but after living in Canada for 4 years, the health care system sure looked a hell of a lot like socialized medicine to me. Sure, it is not entirely federally supported and many people supplement it with some private policies, but every citizen and resident has health insurance provided by the government...both provincial and federal. Furthermore, it is a much nicer place to live because of it:)
 
Oh and not to start a war...but as for the initial comment about how we are to pay for every citizen to have health insurance...surely a country that can spend 87billion dollars rebuilding another country (not to mention all the money it took to bomb it to the ground) can come up with some solution.

I for one will happily support any organization that is a least trying to look for that solution and trying to convince a lot of selfish americans that this would be a good and decent thing to do. It is certainly more than we can say for our president!
 
so you are telling that you didn't join amsa just for the free netter, and discount on car insurance?
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
I could be wrong, but after living in Canada for 4 years, the health care system sure looked a hell of a lot like socialized medicine to me. Sure, it is not entirely federally supported and many people supplement it with some private policies, but every citizen and resident has health insurance provided by the government...both provincial and federal. Furthermore, it is a much nicer place to live because of it:)
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There's a big difference between "socialized" medicine, and health care for every citizen. You said it yourself: "not entirely federally supported and many people supplement it with some private policies" ... not socialized medicine. Spain, where my parents live, has socialized medicine. All hospitals are owned and managed by the government, and physicians are in effect government employees. That's socialized medicine (and yes, it still works very well. Doctors don't get rich, but patients are always taken care of...what a radical concept.)
 
In Canada, health care costs are split between the federal and provincial governments. The hospitals were also government run...I believe...not 100% on that one.

Obviously there are more or less "socialized" modes of the government providing health insurance for its citizens. I don't think what you call it is important. What is important is that governments make a committment to provide health care for their citizens. So, whether Canada's system is socialized and perfect or not, it should serve as an example to the US (as well as every other country doing the same thing) at least in its intent.

And no...I did not join for the free netter's...it was all about the discount on car insurance and the credit card!!! Oh baby...go to town!
 
Out of curiosity, are you planning on returning to canada to practice, or are you going to stay in the us?
stomper
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
So, whether Canada's system is socialized and perfect or not, it should serve as an example to the US (as well as every other country doing the same thing) at least in its intent.
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I couldn't agree more.
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
So, whether Canada's system is socialized and perfect or not, it should serve as an example to the US (as well as every other country doing the same thing) at least in its intent.
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As I understand it, Canada, or at least some of its provinces, funds this universal health care with awfully high sales taxes. I vaguely recall paying something like 20% during my time in Ontario.

As any economist will tell you, sales taxes disproportionately burden the poor, since they spend nearly all their income on goods and services within their nation, while the rich can afford to invest and spend abroad. So it would seem that Canada funds its health care through a system that discourages upward mobility and economic activity. I'm not sure I like either the example or the intent of that.

Of course, I'm open to correction, and if anyone knows of sales tax rebates for the poor or lower middle class in Canada, that would be interesting information to know.
 
Sales tax in Quebec is 15% (including both the federal GST and provincial tax). As far as I know there's no discount for those with lower income - but if you have to choose your burdens I think I'd prefer the tax to paying for heathcare. Also, I believe many supermarket items are excluded from the heavy taxation.

If AMSA is "extreme far left" I'd hate to think what Canada is. :) btw, the students in my class that I've spoken to about politics haven't supported Bush...but I'm in a liberal area to begin with.
 
I think it's naive to compare all these small wealthy countries with 1/10 of our social problems to the United States and ask: "if Canada and Scandinavia can offer good universal health care, why can't we??" LOL, b/c they're nothing like us.

The only way we could provide socialized health care would be to CUT QUALITY as Spain and most socialized health care systems have done. I hope you don't need a hip replacement in England b/c you'll have to lay around in bed for months and likely die of bed sores before it happens (yes, this actually happens quite commonly there). In France there's a black market for surgeons if you want to get your operation sometime in the next year. BTW, most people who can afford private health insurance in Spain have it b/c from what I've heard there is a world of difference b/w private and government hospitals there.

Furthermore, our borders are pretty much open. If we start offering universal health care, everybody and their cousin from other countries will come over here the second they get sick. The only result of a universal health care policy will be a crappy health care system, and everybody who can afford to will just buy into a second private one.
 
Oh man do not even get me started on the lack of quality of healthcare in Spain. Shinken my parents also live in Spain, oh wait, my mom only now. My father passed away because get this, there are no oncologists on call at one of the major hospitals in Madrid (Ramon y Cajal) during the weekends. So yup, he was admitted to some floor and NOT ONE physician came to see him during the weekend, he was pumped with tons of morphine for his pain (liver cancer that metastiziced to his bones) and duh he ended up with pneumonia and died. The nurses there not ONCE listened to his lungs/heart nothing. All he did was get the morphine in pills and lay in bed from Friday-Monday when he passed away. I have lived in Spain almost all my adult life and my mother had private insurance for me because all Spaniards know that if you end up really sick or are old, you will more than likely get subpar care. Everyone that can afford private have it through Sanitas or some other provider. The difference in care is night andd day. Also, get this, when my father was diagnosed with liver cancer they did not OFFER any treatment why? because he was 65 years old. I truly wish that everyone that thinks they know what socialized medicine is, go look around. Go do an internship in Spain or England and see for yourself. You have to wait so long that often times patients die waiting no kidding. The hospital Ramon y Cajal was appaling, I have never seen anything so freaking awful in my life. Doctors yelling at patients and family members that hey you are getting free healthcare so stop whining! I actually heard this. Patients all over the hallways because no rooms, I saw people smoking in the hospital, I saw the worst care I have ever seen...go see for yourself but do not go to just one place go look around and then come back and tell me that this would be a good option for the US. Hell if Spain cannot do it with their tiny country imagine us trying to do it and maintain quality care....
 
I think he philosophical crux, as far as intent goes, is the question of whether everyone should have an equivalent standard of healthcare. Spain, Canada, "every industrialized nation but the US," as we're so often lectured by AMA/AMSA/etc., has chosen the former--everyone gets more or less the same treatment unless they're very wealthy.

Personally, that seems sort of intrusive to me. What if I don't WANT comprehensive health care in return for paying 15-20% tax on everything I buy, parting with half or more of my income on tax day, and enduring a low standard of living (the EU's GDP is only 70% of the US's)? Shouldn't it be my prerogative to get by with a lesser standard of care if organized health care really isn't that important to me?

And really, it's not as if there are countless millions wandering the US with no access at all to health care. Hospitals are obligated to treat those who come in to a limited extent, and even the uninsured will get better care in an American ER than most anywhere else. Free clinics abound--they may require a little more waiting, and you may see a med student or resident instead of an experienced veteran, but the standard of care will still be adequate, and without the massive taxes.

AMA/AMSA is right insofar as the Europeans have some things right...they spend far less on healthcare and get about the same results. The question is: Is this due to government healthcare? I'd say it's more due to the fact that without massive lawsuits, doctors don't have to practice overly defensive medicine. We spend countless amounts on MRI's, PSA screenings, etc. that are legally but not medically prudent. Tort reform doesn't just lower malpractice--it lowers health care costs *across the board*. If I were a member of either organization (and am not, precisely because of a history of ill-informed positions like this), I'd be awfully careful not to put the cart before the horse.
 
I agree that they've also become more "political" in the last several years. I do applaud their role in the 80-hour work week, though. They do seem to do a lot of demonstrating at DC...
 
All you guys against universal health care are pointing out problems in other countries ie: Canada, Spain as evidence that this should not be emplemented in the US. That line of thinking seems very simplistic to me. Just because something is not perfect, or has not been perfectly emplemented someplace else, is not a reason that it should not be attempted in our country for the greater good of all our citizens. An imperfect system that provided care to all our citizens would be far better than the completely unequal system we have right now where only the people who can afford it have access to good health care.

For those of you that think that most people have access to some form of health care, go to a hospital in a lower income area of town some night and see the massive waiting lines for people just trying to get basic care because they don't have enough money to see a normal FP to get their antibiotics. See how the nurses and doctors treat them and then come and tell me about the great care they are recieving. How about the people who have to decide between medicine they desperatly need and food or paying their rent? Yes, they are certainly getting the care they need. The numbers of these people are not small either. It is a large percentage of our population.
I don't know the best way to create a medical system where everybody can get care. However, I am confident that our country...which is wealthier than any other country in the world including Canada and Spain...can come up with something that would work. All that would need to change would be people's priorities...maybe a little less on our defence budget...just an idea of where to start. Or maybe you pay a little higher income tax so somebody else can see a doctor. You wouldn't necessarily have to have increased sales tax. There are many places to find the money. (FYI: health care in Canada is not funded entirely through sales tax...taxes in general are just higher in Canada...but talk to anyone on the street...while they might want lower taxes not one person I ever spoke to would exchange their health care system for lower taxes...they believe in a common responsibility to provide the basic neccessities of their citizens...even if it means a little sacrifice on their part)
Yes, the US is different. Not as completley different as one previous poster said but different in one profound way. Americans are bloody selfish! This is why we don't have a health care system. Nobody wants to have to put out any more money or have their standard of living go down one iota so that somebody else's could go up just a bit. Call it the american way. Call it whatever you want. I just think it is sad and it is something I will try to change.

For the record: I am not Canadian, I just went to university there. I don't know if I plan on returning there to practice, but I may if our country continues down the path it is on. It is difficult to live with such extreme ignorance sometimes.
Also for the record: America is so far from having open borders it is not even funny! Travel with a friend from a different country sometime. Talk to an international person trying to get a job here. I should know...my boyfriend is second in his class at the top university in Canada and US companies won't even look at his resume because he is Colombian!
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
Americans are bloody selfish! This is why we don't have a health care system. Nobody wants to have to put out any more money or have their standard of living go down one iota so that somebody else's could go up just a bit. Call it the american way. Call it whatever you want. I just think it is sad and it is something I will try to change.
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Hey, Im all for change....the first thing I personally would like to see is Americans take responsibility for their own actions. This would include the epidemics of obesity, diabetes, HTN, CAD, to name a few. But no one does. Its McDonalds fault I am fat.
I have been told by numerous obese people that it must be great to look like I do and be able to eat as much food as I do. Hmmm, when was the last time they were up at 430 running 3.5 mi, or after rotations hitting the gym for an hour 6 days a week? No, I take credit for the hard work I do, and it shows in my body.
Until society starts taking responsibiity for itself, I am not willing to pay for others so that they can continue living the lifestyle they have chosen. You are right, go to any hospital. You will see the choices that people make. Those are their choices....the 22 yo male with dliated cardiomyopathy from drug abuse, who happened to 'forget' that he needed to take his lasix, who was on my service last week. Great. The taxpayers spend some good money on him for 3 days of CHF. How much did that cost? What about his selfishness?
Am I selfish. I dont think so. We have created a welfare state. And I do not want to put any more money into that. I work hard....others get rewarded, and your calling me selfish?
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
Just because something is not perfect, or has not been perfectly emplemented someplace else, is not a reason that it should not be attempted in our country for the greater good of all our citizens.

...

For those of you that think that most people have access to some form of health care, go to a hospital in a lower income area of town some night and see the massive waiting lines for people just trying to get basic care because they don't have enough money to see a normal FP to get their antibiotics.

...

I am confident that our country...which is wealthier than any other country in the world including Canada and Spain...can come up with something that would work.
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A few points.

As I understand what you've said, you agree that even the very poor have access to some form of heatlh care. While I'll be the first to agree that it can be better, it IS adequate, and is really eerily similar to what you'll see in Europe. You can't say that people have no access to health care because they don't have access to care you consider good. We can debate quality and quantity, but it's no good conflating the two. Moreover, the government spends a fair amount of money trying to get doctors to practice in underserved areas, with only limited success. The simple fact is that you can't pay most doctors enough to work in underserved areas. Before turning to the government for a solution, perhaps the medical community, if it's so interested in compassion, can exhaust all the resources at its disposal. I wonder how many of the AMA/AMSA universal health care advocates are 30-hour-a-week radiologists or part-time dermatologists.

As for your idea that we can do right what other countries have failed at, or that we're so rich it should be easy, I think you might maybe be confusing cause and result. Low taxes spur spending and investment; spending and investment raises the quality of life for society in general. Our "poor" have a standard of living exceeding many European middle classes. Our GDP's about half again as high as Spain's, and our unemployment is half of what Spain's is. Inflation is half, and growth is about double.

While some might argue we should use some of that advantage to fund universal health care, I think it makes more sense to argue that one reason we HAVE such an advantage is that we don't have too many cripplingly large government programs that make it relatively more attractive not to work and to live off the government dole.

And one final note--everyone knows that a big portion of heatlh care costs come from drugs, and everyone's familiar with the way that socialized nations negotiate lower drug prices. Instead of asking why America can't do the same, consider that America is essentially subsidizing the drug costs for the rest of the world (a quick economic explanation for this is here: http://slate.msn.com/id/88522). If our prices were equivalent, not too many new drugs would get made. The general trend of socialized medicine is fairly lousy and indifferent care for everyone, because no one has a stake in making the system work.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make health care better or more universal, but it's a bit short-sighted to say that we're so rich we should have no problem doing it. Causes and effects are intricately linked, and there's an excellent chance that a European-style health system would marginally improve the quality of life of a few people while making us all generally more miserable. I do find it sort of amusing when people emigrate to the US and then wax nostalgiac about how much better Europe's social programs are. The middle ground between the two, as everyone knows, is nothing more than a big hole in the ocean.
 
All this comes down to social choices. USA has decided to have this type of system because of many reasons.

I live in Canada and I'm proud of the system we have. I'm sure that our system is as efficient as any other system, including US health care system. We have made different choices for the society, that's all.
 
Originally posted by MichiMO
All you guys against universal health care are pointing out problems in other countries ie: Canada, Spain as evidence that this should not be emplemented in the US. That line of thinking seems very simplistic to me. Just because something is not perfect, or has not been perfectly emplemented someplace else, is not a reason that it should not be attempted in our country for the greater good of all our citizens. An imperfect system that provided care to all our citizens would be far better than the completely unequal system we have right now where only the people who can afford it have access to good health care.

For those of you that think that most people have access to some form of health care, go to a hospital in a lower income area of town some night and see the massive waiting lines for people just trying to get basic care because they don't have enough money to see a normal FP to get their antibiotics. See how the nurses and doctors treat them and then come and tell me about the great care they are recieving. How about the people who have to decide between medicine they desperatly need and food or paying their rent? Yes, they are certainly getting the care they need. The numbers of these people are not small either. It is a large percentage of our population.
I don't know the best way to create a medical system where everybody can get care. However, I am confident that our country...which is wealthier than any other country in the world including Canada and Spain...can come up with something that would work. All that would need to change would be people's priorities...maybe a little less on our defence budget...just an idea of where to start. Or maybe you pay a little higher income tax so somebody else can see a doctor. You wouldn't necessarily have to have increased sales tax. There are many places to find the money. (FYI: health care in Canada is not funded entirely through sales tax...taxes in general are just higher in Canada...but talk to anyone on the street...while they might want lower taxes not one person I ever spoke to would exchange their health care system for lower taxes...they believe in a common responsibility to provide the basic neccessities of their citizens...even if it means a little sacrifice on their part)
Yes, the US is different. Not as completley different as one previous poster said but different in one profound way. Americans are bloody selfish! This is why we don't have a health care system. Nobody wants to have to put out any more money or have their standard of living go down one iota so that somebody else's could go up just a bit. Call it the american way. Call it whatever you want. I just think it is sad and it is something I will try to change.

For the record: I am not Canadian, I just went to university there. I don't know if I plan on returning there to practice, but I may if our country continues down the path it is on. It is difficult to live with such extreme ignorance sometimes.
Also for the record: America is so far from having open borders it is not even funny! Travel with a friend from a different country sometime. Talk to an international person trying to get a job here. I should know...my boyfriend is second in his class at the top university in Canada and US companies won't even look at his resume because he is Colombian!
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First of all, we're not the richest country per capita, which is the important number when thinking about socializing things. Second, I don't think you understand just how expensive socializing medicine would be. That 87 billion we spent on the military would literally be drops in the bucket compared to a completely socialized US healthcare system's budget. We'd have to drastically increase many taxes to pay for it and it would probably end up being just as poorly run as most large government organizations. Furthermore, lukealfredwhite had a great point that the reason we are as rich as we are, is partly b/c we've avoided socializing things!
 
Originally posted by efex101
Oh man do not even get me started on the lack of quality of healthcare in Spain. Shinken my parents also live in Spain, oh wait, my mom only now. My father passed away because get this, there are no oncologists on call at one of the major hospitals in Madrid (Ramon y Cajal) during the weekends. So yup, he was admitted to some floor and NOT ONE physician came to see him during the weekend, he was pumped with tons of morphine for his pain (liver cancer that metastiziced to his bones) and duh he ended up with pneumonia and died. The nurses there not ONCE listened to his lungs/heart nothing. All he did was get the morphine in pills and lay in bed from Friday-Monday when he passed away.
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This is EXACTLY why health care is so outrageously expensive in the US and why the system is crumbling. I'm very sorry your dad passed away, but how much do you think an oncologist on call in a US hospital could do for an elderly man with liver cancer that has spread to the bones? Don't you think your dad was better off dying in peace and without pain? In the US, millions and millions of dollars would have been spent trying to keep him alive, he would be in pain and hooked up to machines, and when you wanted to let him die in peace and dignity nobody would want to turn off the life support. Please realize I'm not belittling the death of your dad or your feelings of anger about it, I'm trying to see the situation from a purely medical and economic perspective.

I ask you, which medical system is more humane and makes more economic sense? People have to accept the fact that life ends and that's inevitable. Doctors cannot perform miracles.
 
Originally posted by dave262
Wow, I couldnt agree more. I hope most conservative medical students realize that amsa is more than just a free netter, its an organization that under the auspices of caring has turned itself into a worthless left wing political lobby. I sure do like stealing the food at the meetings though.

Viva la resistance!
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You guys need to read up on AMSA's history. You should have done your homework before accepting that free Netter if you are so opposed to the ideals of the organization. Since the 1960s, AMSA's #1 goal (and the reason it split from the AMA) has been equality in healthcare.

As for stealing food, if your conscience is okay with that, go for it. I just hope your sense of ethics doesn't deteriorate any further than that by the time you are making ethical decisions about people's lives and health.
 
Originally posted by sophiejane
You guys need to read up on AMSA's history. You should have done your homework before accepting that free Netter if you are so opposed to the ideals of the organization. Since the 1960s, AMSA's #1 goal (and the reason it split from the AMA) has been equality in healthcare.

As for stealing food, if your conscience is okay with that, go for it. I just hope your sense of ethics doesn't deteriorate any further than that by the time you are making ethical decisions about people's lives and health.
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I'm not going to steal food from my patients Geez. I was trying to add a little humor sophie. Please take your oversensitivity back to the osteopath forums. +pity+
 
Originally posted by dave262
I'm not going to steal food from my patients Geez. I was trying to add a little humor sophie. Please take your oversensitivity back to the osteopath forums. +pity+
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If only ne'er-do-wells like you didn't steal food from AMSA, we'd have enough money for a universal and fair healthcare system.

Though sophie doesn't show much sensitivity to the plight of those so poor they must steal food. It's clear we have quite a few Inspector Javerts in the organization we need to weed out before we can have true Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity for all.

France salutes you, Dave!
 
Originally posted by lukealfredwhite
If only ne'er-do-wells like you didn't steal food from AMSA, we'd have enough money for a universal and fair healthcare system.

Though sophie doesn't show much sensitivity to the plight of those so poor they must steal food. It's clear we have quite a few Inspector Javerts in the organization we need to weed out before we can have true Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity for all.

France salutes you, Dave!
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Heh. silly me. Finally someone else with a sense of humor. Now, back to studying so that someday we can actually make a difference.

Resolved for this forum that whoever studies the hardest, be it capitalists or communists will lead medicine once our generation is too frail to suture and gets shuttled into administrative positions.

May the best capitalist win.
 
Originally posted by lukealfredwhite
If only ne'er-do-wells like you didn't steal food from AMSA, we'd have enough money for a universal and fair healthcare system.

France salutes you, Dave!
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HAAAA!!

Even crotchety oldsters like me think THAT's funny!

Now it's back with my oversensitve self to the ostepathic forum with all my free-wheeling, left-wing, long hair-having universal healthcare loving comrades...:)
 
Shinken wrote:

This is EXACTLY why health care is so outrageously expensive in the US and why the system is crumbling. I'm very sorry your dad passed away, but how much do you think an oncologist on call in a US hospital could do for an elderly man with liver cancer that has spread to the bones? Don't you think your dad was better off dying in peace and without pain? In the US, millions and millions of dollars would have been spent trying to keep him alive, he would be in pain and hooked up to machines, and when you wanted to let him die in peace and dignity nobody would want to turn off the life support. Please realize I'm not belittling the death of your dad or your feelings of anger about it, I'm trying to see the situation from a purely medical and economic perspective.

I ask you, which medical system is more humane and makes more economic sense? People have to accept the fact that life ends and that's inevitable. Doctors cannot perform miracles.

Efex replies:

OMG Shinken I cannot believe you posted that garbage! I truly hope you never ever take care of my family. Who is to say how long my father had to live *IF* he was given the OPTION of chemo/radio whatever? the point is he was never asked period. And what the do you mean elderly? you make it sound like he was ancient! he was only 65 dude/dudette. See here is the problem if we have people with your ideas taking care of the elderly or the very sick you will come up with "well, what kind of life will the pour soul have, ah let him die in peace" that is just pure nonsense. My family knew that my father was dying duh, but we had all planned to spend Xmas with him in Spain well guess what? he did not even make it until November because of pneumonia that he contracted at the hospital. Sure the oncologists would not have made cancer dissapear we are not stupid you know, but they would have given him a much better dose of morphine (which was freaking huge from some dumb arse doctor in the ER ah and there are not attendings hardly any at freaking Spanish hospitals) and possibly some antibiotics to avoid him getting everything roaming around that thirld world country hospital. I cannot believe you wrote what you wrote, wait and see if your parents one day become really sick and some doc in Spain makes the same choice for your parents w/o asking what treatment they want, and one or both of your folks pass away! because by the way they are "elderly" and who is to say at what age that becomes a fact when the government is in charge 50, 55, 60? or do you make that choice on the spot as a mature 22 year old resident? remember folks in most European countries they go straight from HS to medical school w/o college per se. Also remember what happened in Paris this past summer and all those folks died because OMG the docs were on vacation! literally hundreds of folks died sheesh. Do not get sick in Europe...
 
I joined AMSA for the free Netter plain and simple. Although, I am thinking of going to the AMSA convention in KC this year cause I hear it's a blast to go to (and it's only a few hours driving away)even if you have to listen to their commie propaganda.

Jetson
 
80 hours a week is good and all on paper...but unfortuantely, residency programs are working around this, by way of extending the number of years in their program...or atleast thinging about extending residency. I know that Ortho is a program that'll probably be extending residency in future years, just because you don't get to see or do enough in only 80 hours. Just my opinion, but i'd rather work 100 hours a week than have an extra year or two of residency, getting paid next to nothing.
 
Just another "Socialized Medicine Anecdote:"

My mother lives in Greece which has socialized medicine and absolutley free health care for all. Not to mention 25 percent unemployment, staggering budget deficits as a proportion of GDP, insanely high taxes which has driven a good portion of the countries economic activity "underground" and their own brand new illegal immigration problem courtesy of Albania.

When my father became sick with the cancer which killed him, if my mother had taken him to a public hospital she would have had to hire a private nurse to take care of him as, like Spain, nurses and doctors are kind of thin on the ground. Also, oncologists and other specialists are as rare as "pagoto" (ice cream) in hell in the public hospitals.

Fortunantly, my father was a retired American naval officer so my mother brought him to the states (to Dartmouth Mary Hitchcock hospital) where he received treatment which gave him some extra time on this world to spend with his first grandson.
 
In one of socialized medicine countries where I lived for 20 years:

Operation costs: $80
co-op payment: $0
Pharm Cost: $5

Isn't it nice? Look further:
secret payment to the surgeon (make sure he is coming): $500
secret payments to the other participating surgeons: $300
secret payments to nurses: $100
costs to buy the most current drugs: $100

The results: the rich gets the treament. The poor dies while waiting.
 
Originally posted by JPMD03
All this comes down to social choices. USA has decided to have this type of system because of many reasons.

I live in Canada and I'm proud of the system we have. I'm sure that our system is as efficient as any other system, including US health care system. We have made different choices for the society, that's all.
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Yeah, and from a doctor's perspective the canadian healthcare system sucks. One survey showed that if allowed, over 50% of Canadian docs would like to practice in the USA instead.
 
Originally posted by goobernaculum
I hear that at the AMSA convention this fall they will be worshipping chairman Mao.
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That's a damn, dirty lie!

They're only going to "venerate" him and ask him to intercede for them with Karl Marx.

There is a huge difference between lighting a few candles, kissing his picture, and openly weeping at his untimely demise and "worshipping."
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
Yeah, and from a doctor's perspective the canadian healthcare system sucks. One survey showed that if allowed, over 50% of Canadian docs would like to practice in the USA instead.
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I think thats because those 50% of Canadian docs would love to be paid $200k a year in a more market driven system.

I think the Canadians in terms of PROVIDING care to everyone has it right, and I think thats the future of the US as well.
 
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