What is everyone's opinion on alternative medicine and naturopathic medicine?

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DMB41

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I just wonder what everyone else thinks.

I feel that some of it can have a place in conjunction with allopathic medicine. But I have been called a number of things b/c of this!!

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Numerous threads in Topics in Medicine Forum and I am moving this to that forum for better discussion.
 
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something something evidence based medicine something something


So, are you saying there is no evidence supporting it? None?

I would agree that there is more for allopathic but I think that might be financially driven.
 
So, are you saying there is no evidence supporting it? None?

I would agree that there is more for allopathic but I think that might be financially driven.

I'm pretty sure if there were proven, significant alternative therapies out there that Pfizer would have found a way to put it in a pill, trademark it, and charge us all ungodly amounts of money for it by now.
 
So, are you saying there is no evidence supporting it? None?

I would agree that there is more for allopathic but I think that might be financially driven.

I've never seen any evidence that WHEN HELD TO THE SAME STANDARD as everything being done now in medicine, shows that ACM or naturopathic BS is anything more than ... BS. In fact, some of the worst "peer-reviewed journal" articles I've ever seen are from the Naturopathic or Chiropractic communities.

I've seen a chiro on occasion, but thats because while the evidence shows they're just as effective as real medicine for lower back pain (ie, not particularly better or worse), the relief is more immediate. But as far as rigorous science? Hogwash.
 
Just a side note,

All chemicals are natural right? I mean even if you have make it in a lab, the basic chemicals are found in nature.

So, what is this myth about "Natural Medicine".
 
If you practice "Natural Medicine," the benefit is that you get to feel morally superior to us Establishment allopaths.

Plus, you don't have to do anything really hard like getting into med school, since after all, the MCAT is just a tool of The Man and that's why you only got a 17 on it. Fight the power!
 
If you practice "Natural Medicine," the benefit is that you get to feel morally superior to us Establishment allopaths.

Plus, you don't have to do anything really hard like getting into med school, since after all, the MCAT is just a tool of The Man and that's why you only got a 17 on it. Fight the power!

lol
 
So, are you saying there is no evidence supporting it? None?

I would agree that there is more for allopathic but I think that might be financially driven.

The financial argument has been done to death. There just isn't any evidence because it is BS, at least pharms charge lots of money for things that work.... Alternative meds people charge for things that don't work and have no evidence. Some of these alt practictioners have professional associations which could fund the research and advance their cause, but they don't, do you know why? Because the results will prove that their treatments are ineffective
 
Just a side note,

All chemicals are natural right? I mean even if you have make it in a lab, the basic chemicals are found in nature.

So, what is this myth about "Natural Medicine".

Yep. "Natural" is a flawed premisis. The list of natural things that can kill you is endless.

Everyone likes the idea of secret knowledge. The idea that people in the past could do all sorts of natural/magical etc things. The reality is that they couldnt and that their lives sucked more than ours.
 
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If you practice "Natural Medicine," the benefit is that you get to feel morally superior to us Establishment allopaths.

Yes.

The idea of which I find repugnant and another reason I have no respect for these people and cringe when PC folks in real medicine give them the appearance of credulity.

Everything good in life is unnatural. Humans found this planet a dirty diseased ****hole and we made it better. I, for one, am gratefull.
 
Yep. "Natural" is a flawed premisis. The list of natural things that can kill you is endless.

Everyone likes the idea of secret knowledge. The idea that people in the past could do all sorts of natural/magical etc things. The reality is that they couldnt and that their lives sucked more than ours.

That is so true. People always look at the past with nostalgia, when by and large it was a crappy time to live.
 
The F$$k up of naturopathic crap and garbage and what makes it SOOOOO WANTED by people is the way it is marketed.

Go ahead.... walk into publix, Winn Dixie, Walmart... whatever.

Go to the over the counter section...

Right there next to the damn Ibprofin, Aspirin, Tylanol, Pseudophed sits St. John's Wort, Fish Cod Pills, Garlic Pills....

Come on people... open your eyes... this is the problem right there... the crap that works is on the counter next to the crap that doesn't work and no one is doing anything about it.... no one tells publix you can't do that... no one fines walmart you can't do that.... yes it's partially the responsibility of the buyer... the idiot buyers... but damn it the seller is partially responsible as well for FASLE PRODUCTS THAT DON'T WORK.

*grumble* :mad:
 
I usually stay out of these arguments, but I saw a case yesterday that makes this hard to take. PT with "stage 3" prostate cancer in with alteration in bowel pattern and bright red blood in the stool. I am guessing that this is really T3 or stage C (PT said it is advanced). PT is seeing an MD naturopath since he does not have any insurance. When I asked for the name he showed me his last bill which had the name on it. On this were the following charges:
Milk thistle injection $22
Saw Palmetto injection $25
Naturopathic counselling $115
Some other medication

I wish I was shocked, but I'm really not any more. I did what I could, no charged the visit, got him the lowest price I could on a colonoscopy. I also pointed him at a local cancer center to see if "another opinion" would help. Really doubt this is going to turn out well.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
The F$$k up of naturopathic crap and garbage and what makes it SOOOOO WANTED by people is the way it is marketed.

Go ahead.... walk into publix, Winn Dixie, Walmart... whatever.

Go to the over the counter section...

Right there next to the damn Ibprofin, Aspirin, Tylanol, Pseudophed sits St. John's Wort, Fish Cod Pills, Garlic Pills....

Come on people... open your eyes... this is the problem right there... the crap that works is on the counter next to the crap that doesn't work and no one is doing anything about it.... no one tells publix you can't do that... no one fines walmart you can't do that.... yes it's partially the responsibility of the buyer... the idiot buyers... but damn it the seller is partially responsible as well for FASLE PRODUCTS THAT DON'T WORK.

*grumble* :mad:

My favorite is the ones that are actually toxic. "I took the Liver Cleanse and then turned bright yellow". Really why do you think that happened? "It must have been the two Tylenol I took last month. I heard they are bad for the liver." Me - Let me step outside so I can look that up (I really need to leave before I burst out laughing).

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Just a side note,

All chemicals are natural right? I mean even if you have make it in a lab, the basic chemicals are found in nature.

So, what is this myth about "Natural Medicine".

Don't get me wrong...I'm absolutely NOT a believer in natureopaths - they are one of the worst causes of my headaches!

But...the argument that chemicals are natural is nonsense.....digitalis can be derived from foxglove, lady's glove, fairy cap - all natural plants...but the potency & dosage is unpredictable & variable - I think this was your point - right???

However...that was last century (or the one before that!). We've gone far beyond that in drug design. We have digoxin which provides a set amount of digitalis per tablet & we can predict the kinetics within a few doses of each individual patient. We now have drugs which are not possible in the "natural" sense - enoxaparin, etanercept, solifenacin & many, many others.

Altho these chemicals were made in a lab...they were never found in nature. That is why natureopaths are restricted to what they can prescribe, at least in CA.....

And...for the other opinion....many pharmacists don't advocate the use of these natural herbs &/or supplements. We've seen far too many interactions with prescription medications for us to justify their use, so if asked, I will always tell patients to stay away from them.
 
Altho these chemicals were made in a lab...they were never found in nature. That is why natureopaths are restricted to what they can prescribe, at least in CA.....

They are even more limited most places...cant prescribe at all.
 
Hah this is like the debate on the effectiveness of chi in martial arts. People who think they can do chi fireballs like dragonball Z characters (oh yes there are many of them out there...) are all wackos and should be locked up and never allowed human contact. But those who use chi or the theory of it to just relax and be more fluid is ok as long as they know they aren't getting superpowers.

So I guess it just depends on how much you buy into it and how much practicality you associate with it and how you actually use it that makes the difference between a nutjob and someone who's covering all the bases.
 
Placebo effect?
 
I usually stay out of these arguments, but I saw a case yesterday that makes this hard to take. PT with "stage 3" prostate cancer in with alteration in bowel pattern and bright red blood in the stool. I am guessing that this is really T3 or stage C (PT said it is advanced). PT is seeing an MD naturopath since he does not have any insurance. When I asked for the name he showed me his last bill which had the name on it. On this were the following charges:
Milk thistle injection $22
Saw Palmetto injection $25
Naturopathic counselling $115
Some other medication

I wish I was shocked, but I'm really not any more. I did what I could, no charged the visit, got him the lowest price I could on a colonoscopy. I also pointed him at a local cancer center to see if "another opinion" would help. Really doubt this is going to turn out well.

David Carpenter, PA-C

This is a tough situtation. You may have pointed out to him that his office visit with an MD would cost him about the same.

He will die if he does not get real. This may have been one of those times when a provider needs to sit the patient down and have "come to jesus" talk.

Tough love kind of thing. He can save a few hundred dollars but he won't be alive to enjoy his savings, right.

Also, you should have charged him for the visit. I know this sounds mean, but you did a service. Remember, the guy paid almost 200 dollars for false hope.
 
I usually stay out of these arguments, but I saw a case yesterday that makes this hard to take. PT with "stage 3" prostate cancer in with alteration in bowel pattern and bright red blood in the stool. I am guessing that this is really T3 or stage C (PT said it is advanced). PT is seeing an MD naturopath since he does not have any insurance. When I asked for the name he showed me his last bill which had the name on it. On this were the following charges:
Milk thistle injection $22
Saw Palmetto injection $25
Naturopathic counselling $115
Some other medication

I wish I was shocked, but I'm really not any more. I did what I could, no charged the visit, got him the lowest price I could on a colonoscopy. I also pointed him at a local cancer center to see if "another opinion" would help. Really doubt this is going to turn out well.

David Carpenter, PA-C



It is amazing how much naturopaths actually charge. This is one of my two main gripes with them - they sell the supplements they prescribe, usually at a 300% mark-up. Since I went to acupuncture school at Bastyr University [ND factory], I always thought it was funny to hear a ND student bad-mouth biomedicine for being "unethical" while they saw nothing wrong with selling their supplements with a substantial mark-up.

Your patient's situation also touches on my second beef: not enough clinical training. Only a complete lunatic would think that they could act as a PCP after seeing 400 patients in school with no residency. Even if one is to ignore the "science" behind what they do, it is impossible to ignore their lack of experience.

But in some states the can practice without a referral...after seeing 400 patients. Unfortunately, some of them fail to see the problem and even equate their training as being "equivalent" to a MD's...such as this guy:

http://www.healthegoods.com/2006/01/quackery-are-nds-quacks-am-i-quack.html

"However, I must state that graduates from accredited naturopathic medical schools are equivalent to medical doctors. We study the same sciences, order the same labs, follow the same physical evaluation, use the same instruments, and prescribe pharmaceutical drugs if necessary.

I look forward to the day when naturopathic medicine will be nationally accepted by all. In Washington state, we are very strong and working with MD's in battling cancer, HIV/AIDS, diabetes, minor surgery, sports medicine and numerous other medical conditions."

I especially like the comment posted at the bottom.
 
Since this industry is not regulated, I'm going to start my own naturopathic practice. I will let my MD license lapse so they can't sue me.

I will pimp milk duds and juju bears with a coffee chaser for everything.

LOL. It is going to be fun. I love milk duds and juju bears.:eek:
 
I am just amazed that no one sues them.. I mean really.. if someone has been injecting goat milk in my ass for 20 years charging 20 dollars per injection and in the end nothing.. I would at some point wake up and say hey... this a$$ is ripping me off for money.


This is the fault of the medical organizations.. large ones like AMA. Yes I said it... AMA should invest in beating down the false competition.

But hey, we can't even setup a good medical healthcare in the US... how are we going to beat down slippery falsehoods.
 
Placebo effect?

There's got to be a better name for it than that. When a patient who 'has no insurance' drops a couple of hundred at a 'naturopath' for various squirrel juice potions we should call it something more accurate.

Personally I suggest "*******ology"
 
There's got to be a better name for it than that. When a patient who 'has no insurance' drops a couple of hundred at a 'naturopath' for various squirrel juice potions we should call it something more accurate.

Personally I suggest "*******ology"

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I swear... I think they really oughta have the placebo effect taught in every single ungraduate degree at entrance. The damn concept expands and applies to so many things, not just medicine. *When i draw using a steel 2007 Ultra brush I do a better job than this horse-hair brush.... err ... no, did you check if it is just a placebo effect?*
 
There's got to be a better name for it than that. When a patient who 'has no insurance' drops a couple of hundred at a 'naturopath' for various squirrel juice potions we should call it something more accurate.

Personally I suggest "*******ology"

Extending my martial arts analogy, we got the same thing with our "alternative fighting" proponents - people go and drop thousands of dollars in martial arts cults for various chi building and fireball wielding and mind reading stupidness, for which we also refer to as "*******ology" amongst a host of many, many other expletives and derisive terminology.
 
This is the fault of the medical organizations.. large ones like AMA. Yes I said it... AMA should invest in beating down the false competition.

We did. The chiros sued us. They won. Now they are protected by an injunction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Association


However, I dont disagree with you. The fundamental problem is that the peddlers of snake oil like to switch the burden of proof around. They ask for evidence that a treatment dosent work instead of giving positive evidence that it does. Due to the shear number of possible treatments that exist and the work involved in proving no benefit, this just isnt a sensible means to fight disease.

If we imagine using all of the possible treatment permutations for a given disease, we start with a huge library of treatments. If we then eliminated treatments as they are progressively shown to be useless by studies, it would take not only a huge (infinite?) length of time to arrive at an effective treatment but would expose patients to far more worthless treatments than efficaceous ones. Thats why we dont approach the problem that way in science.

Comparable to the monkey thing...if you had a million typing monkeys, they would eventually write the complete works of shakespear, but it would take a damn long time.

I'll reluctantly accept it if you show me the correctly derived evidence. But I'll really believe you when you show me the mechanism.
 
Do naturopaths and other snake-oil salesmen have to see patients who can't pay? Roughly half of the patients I saw last night were "self-pay" which means, for the purposes of Emergency Medicine, "no pay." Are there homeopathic Emergency Departments where the indigent can get an emergency goat milk colonic or a stat otter sperm rub?

Typical. The purveyors of CAM want all of the "perks" and the respect without putting in the work or having the responsibility.
 
Don't get me wrong...I'm absolutely NOT a believer in natureopaths - they are one of the worst causes of my headaches!

But...the argument that chemicals are natural is nonsense.....digitalis can be derived from foxglove, lady's glove, fairy cap - all natural plants...but the potency & dosage is unpredictable & variable - I think this was your point - right???

However...that was last century (or the one before that!). We've gone far beyond that in drug design. We have digoxin which provides a set amount of digitalis per tablet & we can predict the kinetics within a few doses of each individual patient. We now have drugs which are not possible in the "natural" sense - enoxaparin, etanercept, solifenacin & many, many others.

Altho these chemicals were made in a lab...they were never found in nature. That is why natureopaths are restricted to what they can prescribe, at least in CA.....

And...for the other opinion....many pharmacists don't advocate the use of these natural herbs &/or supplements. We've seen far too many interactions with prescription medications for us to justify their use, so if asked, I will always tell patients to stay away from them.


No, my point was that earth is nature, we live on the earth and all chemicals are found in nature OR are derived from other chemicals found in nature, so it's all natural at its core.

People that like to use the word natural imply that somehow because it was not changed by mans hand or they picked it out of the ground it has better qualities.

I think there are many herbs and insect venoms that have not been studied that could save lives. But to use the work natural is really not correct.

In the 1800s those so called natural were just medicine. Thats all the doctors had back then.
 
No, my point was that earth is nature, we live on the earth and all chemicals are found in nature OR are derived from other chemicals found in nature, so it's all natural at its core.

People that like to use the word natural imply that somehow because it was not changed by mans hand or they picked it out of the ground it has better qualities.

I think there are many herbs and insect venoms that have not been studied that could save lives. But to use the work natural is really not correct.

In the 1800s those so called natural were just medicine. Thats all the doctors had back then.
Rattlesnake venom is natural. I'm sure somewhere somebody is advocating it for cholesterol purposes.

Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's safe.
 
not even mess-nbc thinks much of squirrel juice therapy:


Ignoring the failures of alternative medicine
The U.S. spends millions testing popular supplements. It's a futile effort.
COMMENTARY
By Robert Bazell
Chief science and health correspondent
NBC News

Updated: 8:54 a.m. ET Oct. 25, 2006

Call it swimming against the tide of alternative medicine. It is a futile effort costing taxpayers tens of millions of dollars a year.

Last week’s study showing that the widely touted and sold supplement DHEA does nothing to slow the effects of aging was only the latest major piece of research with powerfully negative results from the National Institutes of Health Center for Complimentary and Alternative Medicine. Previous placebo-controlled trials proved the uselessness of St. John’s Wort for depression and saw palmetto for enlarged prostates, shark cartilage for cancer, echinacea for the common cold and glucosamine plus chondroitin sulphate for arthritis.

But it doesn’t matter much — few seem to care.

The NIH launched its office of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) in 1991 in response to the public’s huge interest in finding ways around mainstream medicine. At first, those heading the effort brought dubious credentials. Much of the research ranged from mediocre (meaningless animal studies) to laughable (passing magnets over sore knees).

But, in 1999, with the name changed to the National Center for CAM, Dr. Stephen E. Straus took over. Straus, who spent much of his career at the National Institute on Allergy and Infectious Diseases, enjoys a reputation as an accomplished scientist. In his time as director, the Center for CAM has spent much of its $122 million annual budget on clinical trials putting most popular alternative treatments to the same rigorous tests as those required of pharmaceuticals and medical devices before approval by the Food and Drug Administration.

Except for acupuncture, already proven effective in China, almost all the research has come to the same conclusion: the stuff doesn’t work.

The powerful industry that sells these products ignores the results and often finds allies who believe in them because of an anecdote or advertisement.

After the chondroitin results appeared, Jane Brody, the longtime health columnist for the New York Times who has always prided herself in offering advice based on scientific research, wrote that she would continue taking chondroitin for her knee pain because “it transformed my 11-year-old spaniel from an arthritic wreck into a companion with puppylike agility, giving him nearly six more active years."

CAM means many things — often just the search for care beyond the 12-minute visit to a harried physician. Some treatments under the alternative medicine heading, like massage, clearly do no harm and could make anyone feel better. CAM can offer a vehicle for a sick person simply to spend time with someone attentive to their symptoms.

As long as it doesn't kill anyone
So-called “dietary supplements,” such as DHEA, saw palmetto and chondroitin, present the biggest problem.

Marketers often sell them under the guise of a mom-and-pop alternative to big pharma. Yet the $29 billion-a-year dietary supplement industry wields such power that it got Congress to pass a law in 1994 that basically frees it to peddle almost anything that doesn’t kill people with claims of medical benefit that need not be proven.

No doubt some of the thousands of products sold as dietary supplements work well, but the industry that sells them has neither motivation nor desire to know which ones work and which don’t.

Neither do many of those who advocate their use, such as the guru of alternative medicine Dr. Andrew Weil.

On his Web site someone recently inquired if a supplement called NT was useful for fatigue. “I'm not convinced by the scant literature on the subject that there's anything to recommend taking NT Factor for fatigue,” Dr. Weil replied, in a surprisingly forthright response.

But, then he added that the fatigue sufferer might want to try “Siberian ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus), coenzyme Q10, the Ayurvedic herb ashwaganda or cordyceps, a traditional Chinese medicinal mushroom that may help fight fatigue and boost energy levels.”

I can find no evidence that any of these relieve fatigue any better than NT.

It gets better.

Dr. Weill concluded his answer by advising that a better-studied treatment might be something called Juvenon. At the bottom of the Web page appeared an ad from the manufacturer of Juvenon with the quote “I take Juvenon every day — Dr. Andrew Weil.”

Such crass commercialism would put most big drug companies to shame.

Dr. Weill has claimed he approaches medicine with a new way of thinking. But, in the end, no matter what the hype, either something is effective or it isn’t. If no one really cares, maybe we should stop spending millions to find the answer.
© 2006 MSNBC Interactive

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15387493/
 
not even mess-nbc thinks much of squirrel juice therapy:




URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15387493/

Great find.


One of my favorite stories is how cordyceps got such a great reputation. During the 94' (?) olympics, the Chinese vastly improved. When asked how they improved so much, one of the top trainers said it was d/t cordyceps.


Plus several swimmers got busted with large amounts of growth hormone [edit - it is unlikely that it was just one of the athlete's drugs since the cost would be ridiculously high in China during the early 90s], and one of the top trainers at the national level just got busted for providing growth hormone to high school athletes.

In reality, most of the research on cordyceps in China has been on cancer:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

(Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Xue Bao is one of the top Chinese journals)
 
Rattlesnake venom is natural. I'm sure somewhere somebody is advocating it for cholesterol purposes.

Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's safe.

That was my whole point.

The past post was in reponse to someone asking me what I was refering to about "natural". Or the meaning of it.
 
I am just amazed that no one sues them.. I mean really.. if someone has been injecting goat milk in my ass for 20 years charging 20 dollars per injection and in the end nothing.. I would at some point wake up and say hey... this a$$ is ripping me off for money.


This is the fault of the medical organizations.. large ones like AMA. Yes I said it... AMA should invest in beating down the false competition.

But hey, we can't even setup a good medical healthcare in the US... how are we going to beat down slippery falsehoods.

Actually they do every once in a while. This yoyo got sued and got to spend some time in prison as someones boyfriend.

http://www.naturowatch.org/legal/oconnell.shtml

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Actually they do every once in a while. This yoyo got sued and got to spend some time in prison as someones boyfriend.

http://www.naturowatch.org/legal/oconnell.shtml

David Carpenter, PA-C

Wow! I read this & wonder how he did what he did (& why this child's parents allowed it - did the medical system fail this family?)

From my perspective - how did this individual purchase IV solutions, supplies, equipment? As a pharmacist, I have to provide documentation if I purchase them for sale to others. Why didn't this guy have to provide the same documentation?

Natureopaths in CA can only prescribe thyroid supplements (under an MD/DO license....not sure why this is judged to be so safe...but who knows???).

I'll have to say, I've never seen an NP or PA work nor prescribe independent of an MD/DO supervisor.....but I can't speak for the whole state. I just know the ones I fill for always have a supervising MD/DO I can communicate with.

I only know of one natureopath & he doesn't prescribe any medications other than his own "herbal" stuff (he is not associated with an MD/DO) - the same stuff you can buy in Chinatown or any other alternative health place.
 
Wow! I read this & wonder how he did what he did (& why this child's parents allowed it - did the medical system fail this family?)

From my perspective - how did this individual purchase IV solutions, supplies, equipment? As a pharmacist, I have to provide documentation if I purchase them for sale to others. Why didn't this guy have to provide the same documentation?

Natureopaths in CA can only prescribe thyroid supplements (under an MD/DO license....not sure why this is judged to be so safe...but who knows???).

I'll have to say, I've never seen an NP or PA work nor prescribe independent of an MD/DO supervisor.....but I can't speak for the whole state. I just know the ones I fill for always have a supervising MD/DO I can communicate with.

I only know of one natureopath & he doesn't prescribe any medications other than his own "herbal" stuff (he is not associated with an MD/DO) - the same stuff you can buy in Chinatown or any other alternative health place.


They can and do what they want because medicine is not federally regulated for fear of monopoly by....take a guess... AMA. I think it's a garbage concept to not federally regulate practicing "physicians" when you are federally paying them from medicare/medicaid.

Whatever..... the only people harmed by this is are people who refuse to believe in medicine as a science... whom you can try and try and try and still wont convince them that statistics show that that damn otter oil is no good.... but they wont listen (hehe remind me sometimes of some old surgeon practices who refuse to let go of some old proven useless techniques *ducks the flaming bricks thrown at him by surgeons and the wanna bes*).

Bottom line... you can't educate people who refuse to learn. Best you can do is educate people who come to you for a solution.
 
Actually they do every once in a while. This yoyo got sued and got to spend some time in prison as someones boyfriend.

http://www.naturowatch.org/legal/oconnell.shtml

David Carpenter, PA-C

In all fairness, he did a correspondence course and is not representative of those NDs that went to a four-year program. Most ND schools actually are trying to shut the correspondence certificate programs down for reasons like this. In fact, when I was at Bastyr, this case caused a huge uproar.



As I mentioned, I do have concerns about the four-year programs.
 
I am a big fan of accupuncture for use as an adjunct tx in chronic pain. there are studies that support it's use and effectiveness there.
as far as the poster who had problems with garlic pills, fish oil, etc
there are studies to show that both of these help balance cholesterol levels, especially high triglycerides with low hdl's. not all "natural " supplements are bogus but yes, I agree there are some that go way overboard with this.
 
In all fairness, he did a correspondence course and is not representative of those NDs that went to a four-year program. Most ND schools actually are trying to shut the correspondence certificate programs down for reasons like this. In fact, when I was at Bastyr, this case caused a huge uproar.



As I mentioned, I do have concerns about the four-year programs.

If 90% of what you are taught is BS, then why would you spend so much time learning it.

You go to medical school to learn thing that work, right?

Lets look at china, the overall healthcare of the popullation is not very good.

I admit there are SOME herbs that help. There may be others. But there has to be hard cold research before we start pumping people full of these things.

ND sell mystique to people. "We have these ancient herbs that have been forgotten and now we have brought them back to save the world". NOT.

The reason they can do this, is because we as doctors have failed them and/or because people are always looking for hope. In this case it is false hope.
 
If 90% of what you are taught is BS, then why would you spend so much time learning it.

You go to medical school to learn thing that work, right?

Lets look at china, the overall healthcare of the popullation is not very good.

I admit there are SOME herbs that help. There may be others. But there has to be hard cold research before we start pumping people full of these things.

ND sell mystique to people. "We have these ancient herbs that have been forgotten and now we have brought them back to save the world". NOT.

The reason they can do this, is because we as doctors have failed them and/or because people are always looking for hope. In this case it is false hope.

To be honest I would rather have a ND defend their profession since I am neither qualified to do so...nor do I really care to. I do know their first two years is supposed to mirror medical school with respect to the basic sciences:

http://www.bastyr.edu/academic/naturopath/curriculum.asp


Next thought. China is a wacky place. After I finished my master's in acupuncture, I went over there to do a 5 week internship in a hospital. I observed many facinating and horrible things. One of the important things I came away with is that it would overly simplistic to compare a few different variables between their medical system and ours and then use that to explain the differences in outcomes. They have some interesting ways of treating conditions "on the cheap" that work quite well. On the other hand, they did things that made all of us Mei Guo Ren cringe ["wait, you want me to put this 5 cm needle in at this point on the back at a perpendicular angle...really?"].

The other major suprise for me was the amount of biomedical research that was being done, especially in the field of Chinese herbal medicine. At the university I was at, every single doctorate student was required to do research. My translator was researching the effects of several popular herbs (used in the US OTC for menopause Sx) on hormone dependent cancers.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the research will never be translated into English. All I can do is hop on pubmed and look for translated abstracts, which really is a step above useless because I can't analyze the actual study. Maybe the NCCAM should use some of its money to hire translators from China...could probably bring a team over and pay them to work for a year for 20K.


edit - I forgot to mention that Chinese herbal medicine and the herbal medicine taught to the NDs are two different styles and are quite different.
 
To be honest I would rather have a ND defend their profession since I am neither qualified to do so...nor do I really care to. I do know their first two years is supposed to mirror medical school with respect to the basic sciences:

http://www.bastyr.edu/academic/naturopath/curriculum.asp


Next thought. China is a wacky place. After I finished my master's in acupuncture, I went over there to do a 5 week internship in a hospital. I observed many facinating and horrible things. One of the important things I came away with is that it would overly simplistic to compare a few different variables between their medical system and ours and then use that to explain the differences in outcomes. They have some interesting ways of treating conditions "on the cheap" that work quite well. On the other hand, they did things that made all of us Mei Guo Ren cringe ["wait, you want me to put this 5 cm needle in at this point on the back at a perpendicular angle...really?"].

The other major suprise for me was the amount of biomedical research that was being done, especially in the field of Chinese herbal medicine. At the university I was at, every single doctorate student was required to do research. My translator was researching the effects of several popular herbs (used in the US OTC for menopause Sx) on hormone dependent cancers.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the research will never be translated into English. All I can do is hop on pubmed and look for translated abstracts, which really is a step above useless because I can't analyze the actual study. Maybe the NCCAM should use some of its money to hire translators from China...could probably bring a team over and pay them to work for a year for 20K.


edit - I forgot to mention that Chinese herbal medicine and the herbal medicine taught to the NDs are two different styles and are quite different.

My point was very simple, they are not qualified to touch patients. Very little proof of results.

Chiropractors say their first two years of school is like medical school as well, but I would not want them treating an MI.

Thats great that they can read about diseases in books, that still does not make them qualified to treat patients. I will use your words, They are wacky.

They have no business in medicine at this point and time.

When some of those research studies come to light, then we can talk.
 
I am a big fan of accupuncture for use as an adjunct tx in chronic pain. there are studies that support it's use and effectiveness there.
as far as the poster who had problems with garlic pills, fish oil, etc
there are studies to show that both of these help balance cholesterol levels, especially high triglycerides with low hdl's. not all "natural " supplements are bogus but yes, I agree there are some that go way overboard with this.

I've had good luck with accupuncture with nausea. The real problem with naturopathy is that they can promise the moon and there is no real controls. The same principle in the Laedrile clinics. If you offer desperate people a way out, they will take it.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
The real problem with naturopathy is that they can promise the moon and there is no real controls. The same principle in the Laedrile clinics. If you offer desperate people a way out, they will take it.

People don't even have to be that desperate. They just like it when someone tells them what they want to hear. The supplement industry does the same thing.

Doctors frequently have to tell patients things they don't want to hear. It's our obligation. "To successfully lose weight, you'll have to change your lifestyle." "You have diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol, which significantly increase your risk of having a heart attack." "Stopping smoking is the single best thing you could do to improve your health."

Lifestyle changes are hard. Prescription drugs are expensive (even generics.) Is it any wonder that so many people would rather hear, "Of course I can help you! Just take these supplements." A little conspiracy theory and anti-establishment rhetoric helps the medicine go down.

Snake oil...the more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
My take is that there is so much we do for patients that could be placebo effect. Large studies on conventional medicines routinely show a narrow gap between placebo and control effects.

My feeling is, if it works, do it, if it doesn't, stop it.

If a patient is really adamant about it, as long as they are taking safe amounts of relatively well-known herbs or supplements (many of which are now in your Palm in Epocrates Pro), I don't see the problem. Bring on the placebo if that's what does it, if not, they will get tired of paying out the nose for stuff that doesn't work. I know, they aren't FDA regulated, but use some discretion and common sense and I think most people will not be harmed by using them for a period of time.
 
If a patient is really adamant about it, as long as they are taking safe amounts of relatively well-known herbs or supplements (many of which are now in your Palm in Epocrates Pro), I don't see the problem. Bring on the placebo if that's what does it, if not, they will get tired of paying out the nose for stuff that doesn't work.

The real frustration, IMO, is when you get folks who insist on taking their vitamin E and B-complex instead of their beta blocker, aspirin, statin, etc. after they have their MI with bypass or stenting. You can lead a horse to water, etc.
 
People don't even have to be that desperate. They just like it when someone tells them what they want to hear. The supplement industry does the same thing.

Doctors frequently have to tell patients things they don't want to hear. It's our obligation. "To successfully lose weight, you'll have to change your lifestyle." "You have diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol, which significantly increase your risk of having a heart attack." "Stopping smoking is the single best thing you could do to improve your health."

Lifestyle changes are hard. Prescription drugs are expensive (even generics.) Is it any wonder that so many people would rather hear, "Of course I can help you! Just take these supplements." A little conspiracy theory and anti-establishment rhetoric helps the medicine go down.

Snake oil...the more things change, the more they stay the same.


I agree with what you are saying, especially that the lifestyle changes are a hard sell. But to be honest, this area tends to be the focus of most ND's, and supplements are used as an adjunct to healthy lifestyle and nutritional changes.

But the NDs that are the most successful tend to be the ones that sell the most supplements at a 300% mark-up. At Bastyr, there were two camps: the "green MDs" (which sold supplements to fit the patient's allopathic diagnosis) and the "real NDs" (that focused on diet and lifestyle changes and saw supplements as an extention of the "failed" allopathic model). The ones that I know that focus on lifestyle and nutrition usually work a 2nd job to make ends meet. But since they have spare time at their practice, they have the time to go over all the nutrition and lifestyle information with the patient, which makes the patient feel like they have a better relationship with the naturopath. Thus they tell their friends that the naturopath took the time to explain all the nuances of their new nutrition and lifestyle program, and the naturopath gets the credit for helping the patient change at the expense of allopathic medicine.

I really wish the NDs that felt this way could do a few weeks in the ICU to see what allopathic medicine can do. Of course most would walk away suggesting more focus should be on prevention, which might be the niche that they fit into.
 
I agree with what you are saying, especially that the lifestyle changes are a hard sell. But to be honest, this area tends to be the focus of most ND's, and supplements are used as an adjunct to healthy lifestyle and nutritional changes.

But the NDs that are the most successful tend to be the ones that sell the most supplements at a 300% mark-up. At Bastyr, there were two camps: the "green MDs" (which sold supplements to fit the patient's allopathic diagnosis) and the "real NDs" (that focused on diet and lifestyle changes and saw supplements as an extention of the "failed" allopathic model). The ones that I know that focus on lifestyle and nutrition usually work a 2nd job to make ends meet. But since they have spare time at their practice, they have the time to go over all the nutrition and lifestyle information with the patient, which makes the patient feel like they have a better relationship with the naturopath. Thus they tell their friends that the naturopath took the time to explain all the nuances of their new nutrition and lifestyle program, and the naturopath gets the credit for helping the patient change at the expense of allopathic medicine.

I really wish the NDs that felt this way could do a few weeks in the ICU to see what allopathic medicine can do. Of course most would walk away suggesting more focus should be on prevention, which might be the niche that they fit into.


You made several points that should make all allopathic doctors think.

1. Taking more time to listen. If we had the time.
2. Focus more on prevention. If they follow our instructions. Its hard for anyone to follow those exercise instructions.
3. Many patients feel left out or ignored when they go to an allopathic physician, so they seek other help. In other words, they feel they need their hands held when they go to a doctor. so if that does not take place they go somewhere else that they can feel safe. Even if it does not work.

For many patients diet and exercise and other preventive methods can delay or stop many diseases. But, there are many more out there that no matter what they do, they will get HTN, or High cholesterol or diabetes.

You said that the allopathic doctors have "failed" the patient.

In many ways we have. But we have been set up to fail from the start. At least in the current medical system. I can't spend the next 40 minutes to talk to a patient. I only have 10.
 
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