What is the best fellowship path?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I've had only reasonable / good interactions with peds surgeons... which is why I'm doing a peds fellowship currently (and this holds true both at my fellowship and residency hospitals).
Most peds people are much nicer, in every specialty and every occupation (nurses etc.). People generally don't tolerate arses around kids.

Certain peds surgeons are overprotective, and also have bigger egos than the average pediatric specialist, but it's rarer than in the adult world. Having kids around makes everybody nicer and play together better.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Peds hospitals tend to be more warm and colorful too. I think that has an affect on mood. It changes the atmosphere. Tends to brighten it a little bit. It seems to make people nicer as a result. I originally wanted to be a pediatrician when I started med school. I love kids.
 
I don't disagree, I'm just making the counter-argument to Blade's suggestion that that non-cardiac surgeons are nicer / more polite / more appreciative. They have less to say about our management in the first place, and that's why they meddle less.
You can be a meddler and still make suggestions and request things nicely if you are a nice surgeon.

I am with Blade. Neuro and CT surgeons and some Ortho tend to lean toward the jerk side more than the other guys.
Experienced this in residency and recently in my last practice.
I recently changed practices and no longer work with brain surgeons. Or rather, rarely. What a breath of fresh air. The other surgeons (mostly gen, gyn, eye, some brain) are so pleasant, converse with me, or just don't talk much. So much more welcome than dealing with the egomaniacs in the spine/neuro room. I am so much more relaxed now in the OR and my anxiety is at a minimum. I think I will actually live longer if due to the immense decrease in anxiety. And my marriage will last longer due to me not taking it out on my hubby.

Of course N=1.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Not to be too snarky, but most ortho and gyn surgeons don't volunteer opinions on what we should do because they haven't the foggiest idea what we're doing in the first place.

Cardiac surgeons might be a little bossy about which inotrope to start, but at least they know something about the heart beyond its ability to move Ancef (ortho) or cause bleeding (gyn).


At my med school there is an ortho srgeon who demands "zero post tetanic twitches" to place ex fixes, with 10 min left in a case.
 
What I've encountered are groups with 15-20 docs. All of them do hearts. Some like it it, some don't. Some have taught themselves TEE, some couldn't care less. The 2-4 CT fellowship trained people don't wan't the call burden. So they take the guys/gals in the group that have more of an interest or function at a very high level in the cardiac room and make a dedicated team (8-12 docs). The folks with non formal TEE training in this group do some sort of education to improve their skills and make the surgeons/administration happy.

Some offer a bit more for the fellowship, some don't. The small bit more is nowhere near what you sacrifice during the year of fellowship. For the groups that don't offer premium, it isn't because they already have a bunch of TEE cert people. It's because they have large number of docs that already do complex cardiac cases and feel they are only hiring CT fellows because their hand is being forced.

This.

As to a prior question, yes I am speaking from experience. At least the experience of going through residency at a big academic place where Attending's don't ask "what are your plans for after graduation" they ask "what fellowship are you doing?" as if it's a requirement for being an anesthesiologist in this country. Now clearly I have an entire career in front of me but when I tore up that fellowship application and started looking for jobs, lo and behold, they were not hard to find. Now I've signed a contract in a large metro city with an established group that has a short partnership track (where you are not abused or asked to cover 4-5 rooms all day) and partners make >90% MGMA with what I believe to be a good if not great call schedule, vacation, and benefits package. AND they are very secure with their hospital contracts and the financial future of the group, to the point that they immediately agreed to write a buy-out protection clause into my contract.

Now clearly this is not going to be the experience of 100% of residents out there, but this was also not the only great job I was offered. Location flexibility is key, although even I limited my search to the southeast and very southern Midwest.

Also of note, I started lurking this board several years ago, probably started in one of my last two years of medical school. And I've been reading the same things about terrible job markets and AMC takeovers and fellowship requirements since the very first day (and historical threads from 5-10yrs ago).
The guys on here who warn people about a career in anesthesiology, without a doubt, have more experience than me and are obviously just trying to give Med students and residents their honest and realistic take on things. I just wanted to give the perspective of the other side.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
At my med school there is an ortho srgeon who demands "zero post tetanic twitches" to place ex fixes, with 10 min left in a case.

If an orthopod asked me for "zero post tetanic twitches" I think the next words outta my mouth would be "Do you even know what that means??"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
This.

As to a prior question, yes I am speaking from experience. At least the experience of going through residency at a big academic place where Attending's don't ask "what are your plans for after graduation" they ask "what fellowship are you doing?" as if it's a requirement for being an anesthesiologist in this country. Now clearly I have an entire career in front of me but when I tore up that fellowship application and started looking for jobs, lo and behold, they were not hard to find. Now I've signed a contract in a large metro city with an established group that has a short partnership track (where you are not abused or asked to cover 4-5 rooms all day) and partners make >90% MGMA with what I believe to be a good if not great call schedule, vacation, and benefits package. AND they are very secure with their hospital contracts and the financial future of the group, to the point that they immediately agreed to write a buy-out protection clause into my contract.

Now clearly this is not going to be the experience of 100% of residents out their, but this was also not the only great job I was offered. Location flexibility is key, although even I limited my search to the southeast and very southern Midwest.

Also of note, I started lurking this board several years ago, probably started in one of my last two years of medical school. And I've been reading the same things about terrible job markets and AMC takeovers and fellowship requirements since the very first day (and historical threads from 5-10yrs ago).
The guys on here who warn people about a career in anesthesiology, without a doubt, have more experience than me and are obviously just trying to give Med students and residents their honest and realistic take on things. I just wanted to give the perspective of the other side.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Yep. There are a lot of people on this board that are young and they think they know the system as it stands.
The anesthesia SDN forum has a ton of academic, hospital, AMC and even PP anesthesiologists who are very sour...
It's never going to be handed to you on a silver plate. Not now, and not 10 years ago.

If you are working for the "man" it's your choice and your own doing-- every specialty has it.

After doing several super obese nasty perirectal abscesses on my last call I can tell you that I am very certain that I am glad that I am NOT a general surgeon even if my CN #1 had not been functioning.

But... people will still bit%h and complain about how bad we have it. Pick wisely during your training young Jedi.

Glad you are feeling the force @NightNight :thumbup:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Yep. There are a lot of people on this board that are young and they think they know the system as it stands.
The anesthesia SDN forum has a ton of academic, hospital, AMC and even PP anesthesiologists who are very sour...
It's never going to be handed to you on a silver plate. Not now, and not 10 years ago.

If you are working for the "man" it's your choice and your own doing-- every specialty has it.

After doing several super obese nasty perirectal abscesses on my last call I can tell you that I am very certain that I am glad that I am NOT a general surgeon even if my CN #1 had not been functioning.

But... people will still bit%h and complain about how bad we have it. Pick wisely during your training young Jedi.

Glad you are feeling the force @NightNight :thumbup:
The people who are sour, are sour from experience, their own and their co-workers'. In certain markets, one needs a ton of luck to find a good group even as an employee (they are all a form of AMCs). As many have pointed out, it's either a matter of strong networking or going to BFE (the kind of job that stays unfilled on gaswork forever, so they are happy with any body - sic!).

I am sure that it's easier to find a decent job in the Western half of the country, just because the ACT penetration is lower, and because the markets are generally better. But that doesn't apply to the East Coast, where I live. And, for families with two earners, it's not so easy to just move thousands of miles away, just because it looks good on paper and at the interview. It takes at least a few months to figure out whether a job was all that you were promised and, even if it's all that and more, the spouse could be miserable there.

I am not a leftist, but the emphasized part in your post is ridiculous. In certain markets, making partner in a good group has about the same chance nowadays as being accepted to Harvard or Yale. There will always be people who do, but let's not generalize. There can't be so many of us with problems "of our own doing". While it's normal that people who make a ton of money as partners won't waste their time here, there are still too many unhappy people.

It's no surprise that academic jobs are more difficult to get than 5 years ago. That's the canary in the mine. We are overproducing anesthesiologists and CRNAs, and it's only going to get worse. At least in most other specialties they can't replace the doctor with a nurse, yet. Even if I made twice the money I make, I still wouldn't advise anybody to go into anesthesiology now. This specialty is dying. Give it 5-10 years and we will make less than hospitalists, on average, when adjusted for the amount of work (heck, we may even do the same kind of work).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Interestingly, medical student applications are really up - we are close to a record number of applications and ERAS is barely open for a month. Probably a 20-30% increase from last year when all is done, and this is true for other academic programs in the SE as well.
 
Interestingly, medical student applications are really up - we are close to a record number of applications and ERAS is barely open for a month. Probably a 20-30% increase from last year when all is done, and this is true for other academic programs in the SE as well.

Canary in the coal mine for how the economy and "high-end" job market is doing currently.

Medicine is perceived as a beacon of stability amidst a lot of economic uncertainty right now. Not sure if it should be viewed that way though :shrug:
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The "market" only needs about 25 percent of Residents to do a fellowship. Even if 50 percent decide on a fellowship that is plenty for the actual needs out there.

The real advantage to a fellowship is flexibility: location, type of practice, academics, etc all favor the fellowship trained person. In addition, it is easier to move around from job to job (3-4 jobs over a lifetime) with a fellowship.

Just as you can win the lotto or gain entry to Harvard the odds aren't in your favor. Instead, focus on what's realistic and develop a sound plan for the future.

For some (50-60 percent) that means a fellowship while for the rest it means a generalist position in private practice. These days though more and more generalists jobs are AMCs or hospital employed positions.
 
There are always two sides to the story.

The people who are sour, are sour from experience, their own and their co-workers'.

The same can be true for those who are enjoying their current jobs. They are happy from experience.

As many have pointed out, it's either a matter of strong networking or going to BFE (the kind of job that stays unfilled on gaswork forever, so they are happy with any body - sic!).

You are absolutely right. Now more than ever, one needs to network and search out theses jobs. It's not circa late 90's early 2000's any more. Anesthesia will likely never enjoy that luxury again. It requires work that sometimes spans the course of many years until there is a job opening. On my last interview trail, it took me no less than 4 years of interaction with a quality group until someone actually retired and the door opened to me.

I am sure that it's easier to find a decent job in the Western half of the country, just because the ACT penetration is lower, and because the markets are generally better. But that doesn't apply to the East Coast, where I live.


You are right again. The East coast is probably the last place I would go searching for a job. Not only are the AMCs and the ACT model pervasive, it is also littered with low incomes coupled with a high price of living. If you know that going into it, then that is your decision to stay there.

And, for families with two earners, it's not so easy to just move thousands of miles away, just because it looks good on paper and at the interview. It takes at least a few months to figure out whether a job was all that you were promised and, even if it's all that and more, the spouse could be miserable there.


Yes. I would agree that it's not easy. Even with two of you picking up and moving. Yet, that is exactly what I did. Both of us quit our jobs and moved 1500 miles across the country. I guess you never know until you try. If you are stuck in a place you don't like, then you owe it to yourself to look for something better.

I am not a leftist, but the emphasized part in your post is ridiculous.


In the end it is you who is striking pen to paper and willing to accept whatever terms you have agreed to.


In certain markets, making partner in a good group has about the same chance nowadays as being accepted to Harvard or Yale. There will always be people who do, but let's not generalize. There can't be so many of us with problems "of our own doing". While its normal that people who make a ton of money as partners won't waste their time here, there are still too many unhappy people.


Then move to a different market. You can't "generalize" east coast groups to the rest of the country. Here is my experience:


First job: Partner from day one.

Second Job: Partner from day one with limited voting rights until one year. Then, fully vested partner.

Let me expand a little on your point:

  • Last round of job hunting was done over many years and through networking- yes I worked on it. Sure it took time but in the end (2 years ago), I had options in great locations with what I consider great partnerships. All in 400-600k range with 8-12 weeks. Of the 5 interviews I went on, only one was advertised on gasworks. All offered me jobs.
  • Now, I just helped place a friend on mine land in a great practice. Right off the bat he has 10-14 weeks of vaca.
  • Furthermore, our group has hired 10 new FTEs due to expansion. Let's just say they are all doing well.
  • I personally know a handfull of SDNs who frequently and not so frequently post here. Without exception, they all have great gigs.
So to say that landing one of these jobs is like winning the lottery isn't exactly true. It's not easy, but with the right attitude and flexibility it's certainly not that difficult to land even in todays terms- with or without a fellowship.

It's no surprise that academic jobs are more difficult to get than 5 years ago. We are overproducing anesthesiologists and CRNAs, and it's only going to get worse. At least in most other specialties they can't replace the doctor with a nurse, yet. Even if I made twice the money I make, I still wouldn't advise anybody to go into anesthesiology now. This specialty is dying. Give it 5-10 years and we will make less than hospitalists, on average, when adjusted for the amount of work (heck, we may even do the same kind of work).

I would say that you are absolutely right in that things are getting tougher and tougher due to our specialty having to morph based on new CMS rules, overproduction of CRNAs, AANA, and M&As. To say that the specialty is "dead" is definitely generalizing. Except for the AMCs, these issues have been in anesthesia since the dawn of time and there have always been a vociforous doom and gloom faction. Again, it's not 2001 anymore, but I can guarantee you that great jobs are still out there. You will however, have to look a lot harder than you used to have to back then. You will likely need to be flexible with regards to practice location and timing.
If you decided not to do either of those, then you are stuck- this makes it different from years past.

While I understand the sour tone within this forum, just remember that ALL specialties are under siege- not just us. Gawd... look at FP, IM, EM, Cards, Rads, etc.
Can a nurse replace a Gen Surgeon? No. Would I want to be a GS? NO!

Even now, I would never do an IM residency over Anesthesia. But that's just me, I fully enjoy the job.
I like the OR and what we do there. So even if I didn't land a stellar job, I would still be happy doing the everyday work. We are highly specialized physicians that do a lot of cool stuff. Having the pressure of seeing 40 patients a day on the floor or at the office is just not for me.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
Good job. You sound just like him. :thumbup:

Maybe I can take Alec Baldwin's job on SNL now

The problem is your experience is certainly not generalizable to the current market environment in anesthesia. I get what you are saying in terms of networking, patience, hard work, etc. It makes sense and is good advice. However, to tell residents to write off working in the most populated area of the country is not logical or feasible. The practice environment on the east coast (for all specialties) is bad. However, since this is the most populated area of the country, this is where the majority of jobs are. To say that working for "the man" is our own choice and our own doing is wrong. You can maybe blame the previous generation for letting their guard down, but not us. Not every resident can pick up and move to Nevada or Montana. We would have 3 anesthesiologists for every patient (I'm just making that number up) in those states.

My point is that the vast majority of jobs available to residents now are these employed jobs...AMC, academics, or PP employment. The jobs that you are talking about are few and far between. Sure, they exist, but nowhere near the amount of the employed jobs. It's not constructive to say it is our own choice and our own doing that we work for "the man" now. A better way would be to figure out solutions to working for "the man."
 
Maybe I can take Alec Baldwin's job on SNL now

The problem is your experience is certainly not generalizable to the current market environment in anesthesia. I get what you are saying in terms of networking, patience, hard work, etc. It makes sense and is good advice. However, to tell residents to write off working in the most populated area of the country is not logical or feasible. The practice environment on the east coast (for all specialties) is bad. However, since this is the most populated area of the country, this is where the majority of jobs are. To say that working for "the man" is our own choice and our own doing is wrong. You can maybe blame the previous generation for letting their guard down, but not us. Not every resident can pick up and move to Nevada or Montana. We would have 3 anesthesiologists for every patient (I'm just making that number up) in those states.

My point is that the vast majority of jobs available to residents now are these employed jobs...AMC, academics, or PP employment. The jobs that you are talking about are few and far between. Sure, they exist, but nowhere near the amount of the employed jobs. It's not constructive to say it is our own choice and our own doing that we work for "the man" now. A better way would be to figure out solutions to working for "the man."

A bit rough around the edges, I'll give you that. And I will also agree that a large portion of the jobs are located on the East coast. I guess from my experience, I looked at Florida back in 2006 because I liked that state. As soon as I figured out what FL was like for anesthesiologists, I just never looked there again. People will always take a pay cut based on the fact that it's the East coast- NY, NC, SC, FL, NH, MA etc... are great states and will always have people lining up to take the lower paying jobs.
My point in this thread is that residents can look elsewhere. You are not necessarily stuck in one geographical area.
Taking a gamble on the unknown might bring you something worth while. It's just wrong to say that it's all doom and gloom.
Just my side of this story. I hope that future residents and existing anesthesiologists understand that what has been happening in places like NYC, Chicago, Miami isn't necessarily the full picture. People retire or get sick or groups expand. There are opportunities out there. Heck, there are several people on here that have some brilliant employeed positions- so it's not just PP.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
A bit rough around the edges, I'll give you that. And I will also agree that a large portion of the jobs are located on the East coast. I guess from my experience, I looked at Florida back in 2006 because I liked that state. As soon as I figured out what FL was like for anesthesiologists, I just never looked there again. People will always take a pay cut based on the fact that it's the East coast- NY, NC, SC, FL, NH, MA etc... are great states and will always have people lining up to take the lower paying jobs.
My point in this thread is that residents can look elsewhere. You are not necessarily stuck in one geographical area.
Taking a gamble on the unknown might bring you something worth while. It's just wrong to say that it's all doom and gloom.
Just my side of this story. I hope that future residents and existing anesthesiologists understand that what has been happening in places like NYC, Chicago, Miami isn't necessarily the full picture. People retire or get sick or groups expand. There are opportunities out there. Heck, there are several people on here that have some brilliant employeed positions- so it's not just PP.

And back to the original question, fellowship gives you that flexibility and ability to take a gamble that you speak of.
 
I have three offers currently, in medium-large cities (500k-1mil) in the SE/Midwest. No fellowship.

Each has their drawbacks with structure, pay is probably average, 8 weeks vacation, and only one is a partnership track. But it was pretty easy to find all these. Now I just need to figure out where I want to live. o_O
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I have three offers currently, in medium-large cities (500k-1mil) in the SE/Midwest. No fellowship.

Each has their drawbacks with structure, pay is probably average, 8 weeks vacation, and only one is a partnership track. But it was pretty easy to find all these. Now I just need to figure out where I want to live. o_O

That's a nice position to be in.

Fellowships are great. Do them because you like the subspecialty... not because of the job prospects.

Every person who does a fellowship shuts the door on practices that don't do that particular fellowship.

Tons of practices that don't do peds.
Tons of practices that don't do hearts.

But there are tons of practices that do a lot of ortho, spine and OB.

Just food for thought.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Heck lots of people in the world and throughout history have moved for better job opportunities or better opportunities for their families despite extreme hardships. Just talk to IMGs.

Now that things aren't as rosy in the US some Americans might consider moving outside the US for better job prospects. Great thing about a US medical degree and training is they're highly portable internationally.

Yet it seems most people here are not even considering moving internationally but just moving within the US. That's not too bad, right? I don't know and it's not my place to say one way or the other. But just trying to offer another perspective as an IMG.
 
American medical degrees are highly portable internationally? That's news to me. Most of this kind of stuff is based on reciprocity, and I can tell you that the U.S. doesn't care much about foreign degrees.
 
Great thing about a US medical degree and training is they're highly portable internationally.

It might be easier to go from US --> elsewhere than from elsewhere --> US but it doesn't look easy to me. Even Canada won't take US anesthesiologists unless they've done a fellowship year to get 5 total years of GME.
 
American medical degrees are highly portable internationally? That's news to me. Most of this kind of stuff is based on reciprocity, and I can tell you that the U.S. doesn't care much about foreign degrees.
It might be easier to go from US --> elsewhere than from elsewhere --> US but it doesn't look easy to me. Even Canada won't take US anesthesiologists unless they've done a fellowship year to get 5 total years of GME.
1) Just to be clear, I didn't say anything about whether or not the US cares much about foreign degrees. In fact I take it for granted the US doesn't care.

2) I assume most developing countries would accept a US degree and training. That's probably the majority of the world right there. For example, I once heard a US doctor say they'd be happy to move to someplace like Thailand or maybe it was another part of Southeast Asia. Don't know how representative this is, job prospects might be questionable, but that doesn't matter, because as I said above I'm only applying this to "some Americans [who] might consider moving outside the US".

3) I agree it's definitely tougher to move from the US to developed nations. But not necessarily impossible. For example, my understanding for Australia and New Zealand (I know I'm oversimplifying) is you'd have to get a work visa, pass the AMC exams and get approval from your specialty's college. If this is accomplished, then it's possible. You wouldn't necessarily have to start all over from scratch as an intern like in the US. That's already a big difference in comparison to moving from another nation, even as an attending, to the US.

4) My main point wasn't about moving outside the US though. It was about moving within the US.
 
Here is my advice to residents from my little experience. If you have the time and resources, get a good fellowship under your belt.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
That's a nice position to be in.

Fellowships are great. Do them because you like the subspecialty... not because of the job prospects.

Every person who does a fellowship shuts the door on practices that don't do that particular fellowship.

Tons of practices that don't do peds.
Tons of practices that don't do hearts.

But there are tons of practices that do a lot of ortho, spine and OB.

Just food for thought.

That's not true. For example, FFP did a Critical Care Fellowship but he could easily join a "General Practice" if he chose to do so. I've seen Cardiac guys stop doing hearts for the right gig.

So, the fellowship doesn't "shut the door" if you are willing to stop doing that subspecialty. For the right price most are more than willing to be flexible
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
That's not true. For example, FFP did a Critical Care Fellowship but he could easily join a "General Practice" if he chose to do so. I've seen Cardiac guys stop doing hearts for the right gig.

So, the fellowship doesn't "shut the door" if you are willing to stop doing that subspecialty. For the right price most are more than willing to be flexible

I think you missed my point.

For example, when pgg finishes his cardiac fellowship, he isn't going to interview for a spot in a group that does not do cardiac- doing otherwise makes no sense whatsoever. By doing a cardiac fellowship he is shutting the door on those "general" groups that may or may not be lucrative from a location, vacation or financial point of view. Do the fellowship if that is your interest. It does not necessarily improve your chances of landing a good position in a particular market- That's my point.

I don't know of anyone that did a fellowship and then never practiced that fellowship- that is a very bad decision without other circumstances.

Sure, 10 years down the line if he wants to exit the subspecialty he can apply for a general position. That obviously goes without saying.
 
The one you enjoy the most and want to practice for the rest of your life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I think you missed my point.

For example, when pgg finishes his cardiac fellowship, he isn't going to interview for a spot in a group that does not do cardiac- doing otherwise makes no sense whatsoever. By doing a cardiac fellowship he is shutting the door on those "general" groups that may or may not be lucrative from a location, vacation or financial point of view. Do the fellowship if that is your interest. It does not necessarily improve your chances of landing a good position in a particular market- That's my point.

I don't know of anyone that did a fellowship and then never practiced that fellowship- that is a very bad decision without other circumstances.

Sure, 10 years down the line if he wants to exit the subspecialty he can apply for a general position. That obviously goes without saying.


We have a few people in my practice who have done peds and icu fellowships at good places who never practice their sub specialty.
 
We have a few people in my practice who have done peds and icu fellowships at good places who never practice their sub specialty.

Wow. Interesting. Either:

1) didn't know what they were getting into and ended up not liking the subspecialty.
2) have other life circumstances.
3) had an offer they couldn't refuse.

Outside of the educational benefits, having not practiced their fellowship seems like a waste of time. Odd.
 
We have a few people in my practice who have done peds and icu fellowships at good places who never practice their sub specialty.

Did they ever practice their subspecialties in the past?

Just curious, are you guys a multi subspecialty group?
 
Wow. Interesting. Either:

1) didn't know what they were getting into and ended up not liking the subspecialty.
2) have other life circumstances.
3) had an offer they couldn't refuse.

Outside of the educational benefits, having not practiced their fellowship seems like a waste of time. Odd.

Did they ever practice their subspecialties in the past?

Just curious, are you guys a multi subspecialty group?

We a large fair group in a desireable area so we get applicants from a nationwide pool. Yes we are multi-subspecialty. We staff a freestanding children's hospital and our practice doesn't include adult critical care. Our pediatric section is very selective and practices exclusively at the children's hospital. Some of the pediatric fellow applicants are offered a general position but not one at the pediatric hospital and they still join. The critical care fellows typically did their fellowship at the local anesthesia program and want to stay in town. We have had a few experienced doctors who practiced critical care in their former practice but wanted to move to the area and gave up critical care in order to do so.

Overall their fellowships did not help or hinder their applications. It's more the quality of the applicant that matters than whether or not they did a fellowship.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@sevoflurane is right.

Fellowships don't really matter in PP, unless directly applicable to the group's needs. Not only that, but something like a CCM fellowship can hinder an anesthesiologist, because it takes him out of the OR, which most groups don't appreciate (despite all the advantages that come with a good intensivist). Do not do CCM, unless combined with cardiac. This could apply also for pain, in groups which don't need pain. Also, if one is specialized in something the group doesn't really offer (on top of being paid much less than the partners), they will be always concerned that one won't stay long-term with the group (and which manager wants to work hard at finding suckers every year?). Also, if one wants to keep PP in one's future, one should probably avoid academia, because one won't be able to practice the whole extent of general anesthesiology and will lose skills. Again, PP groups in some markets are so spoiled with candidate choices they don't want to invest any time or effort in them; they just want them to hit the ground running.

The only fellowship that still consistently scores points in PP is cardiac. For anything else, think twice, or look at the specific market you are interested in, down to the specific employer. It's ridiculous, I know, but true. And this market won't get any better, not until people will just stop going into anesthesiology residency for many years. Yeah, like that will ever happen again... Anesthesiology residents will soon be the new law school graduates.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Anesthesiology residents will soon be the new law school graduates.
It's funny that you mention that, as I've been pondering the similarities between legal and medical practice models - especially amongst us "service" specialties like anesthesiology. IMO lawyers have been much, much better at preserving their own self interests and maintaining true practitioner owned partnerships. We could learn a lot from them on maintaining control over our speciality.

But they've recently been debating whether law firms should allow non-lawyer owners (akin to AMCs). Also, mega-firms like Shearman and Sterling have been demoting partners into lesser tiers (non profit sharing, non voting, etc).

It seems that we'll all be lackeys to investment bankers soon enough?



Winter is coming.
 
Can any other residents comment on how many of their colleagues are pursuing fellowships? My CA-3 class 5 of 8 are headed on for subspecialty training.
 
Larger class here, something like 12-13 out of 20 pursuing fellowships. Our program historically splits right down the middle 50/50 over the past 5 or so years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It's funny that you mention that, as I've been pondering the similarities between legal and medical practice models - especially amongst us "service" specialties like anesthesiology. IMO lawyers have been much, much better at preserving their own self interests and maintaining true practitioner owned partnerships. We could learn a lot from them on maintaining control over our speciality.
You know why? Because there are many more lawyers in Congress than physicians. ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
We have 12/20 doing fellowships
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Currently in the fellowship match for Hospice and Palliative Medicine -I'm currently an attending in private practice . If anyone is interested , I'd be glad to expand upon the particulars....
 
Can anyone comment on the need for Fellowship in the So Cal market? I've seen mixed things online and word of mouth. On gas work, cardiac might be the only one that seems a little more advertised for.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Last edited:
Can anyone comment on the news for Fellowship in the So Cal market? I've seen mixed things online and word of mouth. On gas work, cardiac might be the only one that seems a little more advertised for.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Cardiac is a safe bet anywhere for the near future. If anything, it makes one a better generalist, too. But I remember how it used to be back when pain was the lottery ticket, so expect the roller-coaster.
 
Currently in the fellowship match for Hospice and Palliative Medicine -I'm currently an attending in private practice . If anyone is interested , I'd be glad to expand upon the particulars....
You are probably in pain (no pun intended). My advice to you is to look very carefully at the HPM program before you give up a year. I know people who regretted that year, once they discovered that 1. their program wasn't as good as they had hoped, 2. their post-fellowship job choices sucked even more than with pain.

If you are not in pain, I hope you have a very good and palpable reason for going the HPM route.
 
Can anyone comment on the news for Fellowship in the So Cal market? I've seen mixed things online and word of mouth. On gas work, cardiac might be the only one that seems a little more advertised for.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Way to many variables to make a blanket statement. There are just too many small-medium groups around which are each gonna have their own unique needs. Private practice CC is pretty much non-existent here. I'm not personally aware of any groups which do combined pain/OR. The pain guys are pretty much just pain. Peds and Cardiac are good bets generally speaking as most local hospitals want to see that piece of paper before they let you work on hearts or little kids.

The only exception to the above is San Diego where one mega-group controls the market. It might be easier to get a handle on what their needs look like for the near term future.
 
Should a generalist fair just fine breaking into the market? I am considering Regional at the moment.

I'm originally from California area and doing training in the eastern seaboard. My institution has some ties but they are obviously better if you trained in the state. We get great regional training at my program but was curious if I NEED a Fellowship to land a nice gig. High student debt is a huge issue.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Last edited:
Should a generalist fair just fine breaking into the market? I am considering Regional at the moment.

I'm originally from California area and doing training in the Northeast. My institution has some ties but they are obviously better if you trained in the state. We get great regional training at my program but was curious if I NEED a Fellowship to land a nice gig. High student debt is a huge issue.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
If you had great regional training in residency, nobody in PP will care that you got the extra training to become super-great at it. There is no board certification. It will be a wasted year. You already know more than you'll probably need.

If you want a fellowship, go do something that either teaches you something you don't know (and the market needs), or gives you a certification that opens doors your skills alone wouldn't.

Call the groups in the area you want to end up after training, and find out what they need.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Agree with FFP. Fellowship not needed. The only way regional would help would be if you did it at one of the West Coast programs and were able to make some connections to plug you into a good job. The actual certificate ain't worth it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Should a generalist fair just fine breaking into the market?

Overall absolutely - my class isn't having any trouble finding jobs, but with a couple caveats. If you are worried about a specific location or area (and it sounds like you are) - word of mouth is much more important than obtaining any extra training to appear more marketable. This assumes location is more important to you than extra training, of course. This is why many of us suggest training in the vicinity of where you want to end up because contacts can be really quite helpful, many jobs are not obtained on gasworks or via recruiters but by introductions and even cold calls.

The other caveat has to do with program. Going through this process right now I can tell you that PPs absolutely make a snap judgement when they see what program you are at, but honestly as long as you are at a solid university-based program I can't see it being much of an issue. It has been a bit of an issue for some of my friends in more community-based programs, but still not impossible to overcome.

If you have a real interest in a subspecialty as well as desiring to work in a nice, popular area then fellowship is probably your way to go.
 
This is why many of us suggest training in the vicinity of where you want to end up because contacts can be really quite helpful, many jobs are not obtained on gasworks or via recruiters but by introductions and even cold calls.

Cold calls don't work. It is a myth that seems to be propagated a lot around here. Introductions and connections certainly work, but I wouldn't put much effort into cold calls. An exception I can think of would be a particular practice in your hometown that you know for a fact you want to end up at or you are very unique and will stand out among the pile of CVs that competitive practices get.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Cold calls don't work. It is a myth that seems to be propagated a lot around here. Introductions and connections certainly work, but I wouldn't put much effort into cold calls. An exception I can think of would be a particular practice in your hometown that you know for a fact you want to end up at or you are very unique and will stand out among the pile of CVs that competitive practices get.

Totally agree, people always seem to mention it which is why I did.
 
Top