What now? Options after rejection

[Rapunzel]

I only applied to one program this year, and did not get an interview. Over the last five years I had already applied to all of the other counseling and clinical psychology doctoral programs in my state, and I honestly did feel like this last one was both the best fit for me and my best shot. I thought that if I didn't get in this year, I would be ok with it, and just decide whether to accept being a master's level counselor, or try again another year. But I am finding myself feeling pretty discouraged, and I really am not happy with the limits that I have where I am. Would anyone mind helping me to think of what my options are at this point, and sort out what is worth doing?

Here are some of the things that I thought of:
* Keep applying to university-based psychology doctoral programs until I find one willing to give me a chance.
* Consider distance alternatives such as Fielding, Walden, Cappella, etc. (I'm concerned about cost, reputation, and licensability - my state will not license people from non-accredited programs, but does it matter if I get my LPC license?)
* Argosy has a new campus here, but no PsyD yet, although I have heard that the PsyD is coming too. Same concerns as above.

* Get specialty training to enhance my LPC (EMDR, DBT, etc.) - I would still lack credentials for teaching and research, not to mention testing, which are part of what I would like to do, but maybe I would be more in demand as a counselor, and feel better about my level of training.
* Go for another related degree and license such as PA or APRN so that I could handle prescriptions. I never expected my interests to go that way, but I did find psychopharmacology interesting, and have been involved with helping clients with medication management and choices. Sometimes I am frustrated with doctors that are less than helpful, and it would be nice at times to be able to do more than suggest to doctors that a patient could benefit from adding or discontinuing or increasing or decreasing something.

* Look for a RA position, even if it means not completing my hours towards LPC, and hope that something comes of it (or give up sleep and/or family and personal time in order to do everything, but I'm used to that already, I just was hoping to balance out my life a bit).
* Write a book.

*Anything else I'm overlooking? I know, why limit myself to just one of these options.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Rapunzel]

I have shared some of my background here before, but it might help to know a few things here too. For one thing, I've already been 29 for something like 10 years or so, and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to pull that off. I have kids who will be starting college themselves within a couple of years - maybe I can just go with them. It feels like time is running out and I'm never going to get the chance to be somebody, or at least to be who I want to be.

I wanted to be a psychologist when I started as an undergrad, more than 20 years ago, but gave up because after growing up in a family where I was told again and again and again that I could never be good enough at anything, I believed it when professors said they didn't want people like me in the field. I changed majors, but still kept taking psych classes anyway (completed requirements for a double major, without planning it that way), and finally gave up on everything.

I lived in a fog of depression and dissociation and no self-confidence for years, just going through the motions. I don't even remember a lot of that time, and since I lost at least 10 years or more to simply not living, I feel justified in subtracting some of that from my calendar age. I certainly don't feel 40ish. It feels like time for me to grow up and start living life as an adult, and find my way in the world. Only, leaving home after this second childhood isn't likely because I have kids and can't really abandon my family. But I still wish that somebody would give me a chance. Part of me really does want to go away to school somewhere. My husband is at a point in his career where he can't re-locate, but a part of me really would like to leave home and go someplace on my own.

Six years ago, I hit rock bottom in my depression, woke up, bounced a few times, and remembered that I wanted to be a psychologist. I read everything I could find about psychologists who succeeded in spite of their own challenges, and hoped that I could do it too. I got therapy, took another year of undergraduate classes to attempt to re-enter the world of academia and renew references (I did take credits working on a research project, but as a distance student, I wasn't able to do as much as I had hoped). I got jobs as a paraprofessional, became a workaholic, applied to psych degree programs, and finally decided that starting a non-thesis master's program that was available to me was at least a step forward and better than getting $6 an hour and no respect as line staff in a residential program where I was not physically safe.

I wish that I could go back 10, 15, or 20 years and do a lot of things differently, but I can't. I know that I am short on research experience, and I don't have any good ideas for getting research experience now, but I would love to hear ideas. It is hard right now for me not to write that I probably don't deserve a chance because I was stupid and messed up my life by giving up on what was important to me back then, and that there is no future for people like me.

Sorry this is so long, and thanks if you read it. I really would appreciate any help or support that you have to offer.

Thanks,
Rap

 

[Rapunzel]

My stats: GPA 3.54 undergrad, 3.96 graduate (MS in Mental Health Counseling, newly completed)
GRE: Verbal: 640, Quantitative: 620, Writing: 5.0; Psychology: 700 (I need to re-take, since my general scores are now 5 years old. I can probably improve on these scores, as I took the GRE after being out of school for 15 years, with very little preparation, and was violently ill while taking the test - I don't know how it came out that well).

 

[numbereight]

specifically, what do you want to be?

I only applied to one program this year, and did not get an interview. Over the last five years I had already applied to all of the other counseling and clinical psychology doctoral programs in my state, and I honestly did feel like this last one was both the best fit for me and my best shot. I thought that if I didn't get in this year, I would be ok with it, and just decide whether to accept being a master's level counselor, or try again another year. But I am finding myself feeling pretty discouraged, and I really am not happy with the limits that I have where I am. Would anyone mind helping me to think of what my options are at this point, and sort out what is worth doing?

Here are some of the things that I thought of:
* Keep applying to university-based psychology doctoral programs until I find one willing to give me a chance.
* Consider distance alternatives such as Fielding, Walden, Cappella, etc. (I'm concerned about cost, reputation, and licensability - my state will not license people from non-accredited programs, but does it matter if I get my LPC license?)
* Argosy has a new campus here, but no PsyD yet, although I have heard that the PsyD is coming too. Same concerns as above.

* Get specialty training to enhance my LPC (EMDR, DBT, etc.) - I would still lack credentials for teaching and research, not to mention testing, which are part of what I would like to do, but maybe I would be more in demand as a counselor, and feel better about my level of training.
* Go for another related degree and license such as PA or APRN so that I could handle prescriptions. I never expected my interests to go that way, but I did find psychopharmacology interesting, and have been involved with helping clients with medication management and choices. Sometimes I am frustrated with doctors that are less than helpful, and it would be nice at times to be able to do more than suggest to doctors that a patient could benefit from adding or discontinuing or increasing or decreasing something.

* Look for a RA position, even if it means not completing my hours towards LPC, and hope that something comes of it (or give up sleep and/or family and personal time in order to do everything, but I'm used to that already, I just was hoping to balance out my life a bit).
* Write a book.

*Anything else I'm overlooking? I know, why limit myself to just one of these options.

 

[PsyDr]

it sounds like you are still trying to figure out exactly what you want with your life. i would recommend some therapy to explore your options. based upon that exploration you could explore applying to programs actually outside your state or not. bring in the hubby.


i know i have repeatedly stated this, but it is simply inconceivable to me that so many people will radically change their life in all regards except moving.


DO NOT CONSIDER DISTANCE EDUCATION. what do we call people who try to gain the same benefit as others without equitable work? fraud.

 

[FranklinR]

DO NOT CONSIDER DISTANCE EDUCATION. what do we call people who try to gain the same benefit as others without equitable work? fraud.

We also call them lucky, or good decision makers. Fielding is APA accredited, which means the APA thinks it's OK. Are you going to have some internship issues? Possibly. Can you get past those issues? Yes. I know two directors of internship programs (one retired last year, one still doing it.) Both have accepted Fielding students and were happy they did. Both asked me why I didn't want to do Fielding (answer: because I want research and teaching experience as much as clinical)

Once you're out in the world practicing: how many times will patients ask where you went to school? Never. When applying to your second job? Might come up, but unlikely. Third job? Nobody cares anymore.

To PsyDR: Inconceivable that people don't want to move? I'm not sure that word means what you think it means. Moving with a spouse, kids, support structures, a house (because now is a GREAT time to sell a house)(note: it's not really a great time to sell) is just different, harder, more complex than it was ten years ago. I empathize, although I did apply to other programs. Not moving limits options, but it doesn't eliminate them.

To the OP: Consider again and again what your end goal from this really is, and work to get there by whatever path is practicable. If the goal is to practice as a psychologist, consider LCSW, MSW, EDD... If it's to have a PhD in psychology and practice, consider non-clinical psych with a respecialization program after (just don't tell them that's your plan). Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss more options.

 

[deleted176373]

i know i have repeatedly stated this, but it is simply inconceivable to me that so many people will radically change their life in all regards except moving.

LOL, ya, I did all that and moved too.

I too, would question why anyone in their right mind would do this approaching 40, despite the fact that I did exactly that myself. I will admit that I had a very special set of circumstances that made it both lucrative and possible. If I had to shell out $$$$ and had to suffer through 5-6/years of school plus an internship that hardly paid any money, I don't think I could justify it, regardless of how much I loved the field. I do think that as a 40 year old, there is justification (both financial and temporal) to complete a masters level program to work in the field, should this be your desire.

Granted the master's level practitioner lacks the prestige associated with holding a doctorate, and if that's important to you, then you have little choice in how to proceed. However from an opportunity cost model, I don't think that the master's level practitioner is at a huge disadvantage. So think about what it is that is driving you towards a doctoral degree.


Mark

 

[docma]

You have valuable life experience and motivation and a good academic record. You should definitely look at both local schools with an MSW program and the Smith School of Social Work (academic coursework in the summer in Northhampton Mass; year long clinical field placements can be where you live). An MSW with a clinical emphasis can lead to licensure, and clinical positions or private practice where you can do both psychotherapy and crisis intervention/case management etc. (Or you could consider the option of a Nurse Practioner degree with a specialization in psychiatry.)

You do not have to be a PhD/PsyD to be a skilled and effective mental health practitioner and you can make an enormous difference in the lives of others. The cost of a doctorate in psychology has become prohibitive, and the loan debt imposed on students for professional schools is unconscionable, I think, given the current state of the profession and economy. Until the profession sorts out the issue of internship supply and funding of students, the doctorate path to practice doesn't make sense to me. I actively support those already on the path in finishing--but I can't in good conscience encourage folks to set out on it in these times when there are other excellent ways to go.

 

[PsyDr]

franklin,

pay attention to what i wrote. i did not state that i do not understand why someone does not want to move. i stated it is inconceivable to me that the emotional valence of moving is higher than pretty much any other decision including attempting to go to grad school. the OP is willing to consider, desperately even, taking out loans that are equitable to the cost of a house, so finances are not the issue at hand.

regarding your first point: by your logic we could call individuals who falsify documents to create a fake doctorate and get a license "good decision makers" or "lucky". or committing insurance fraud by billing more hours than you actually did would be a "good decision". hell, by your logic individuals who use anabolic steroids to increase muscle mass are "good decision makers". see, the logic does not work. the honest thing to do is to put in the work and derive the associated benefits. to cut corners necessitates missing out on some aspect of the education, assessment, therapy or whatever. i know i chose my most recent surgical consult by finding a physician who graduated from northwestern. why? because he put in enough effort to get into a great med school and then put in even more effort to graduate from a great school. i know i would prefer to see someone with that kind of dedication to his craft. the honest thing is to put in the actual work and receive the actual benefits.

as for asking about where you got your doctorate. EVERY SINGLE deposition i have ever done has included where i went to school. in fact it is part of every depo. and EVERY SINGLE testimony. and the MAJORITY of my patients has asked about my education and examined my diploma on my wall. hell i was even asked where i went to school when i attended a pharmaceutical dinner. hell, there was even a major scandal in the forensic world last year wherein a supposed "expert" was discovered to have graduated from an online school. furthermore, his piss poor assessment had been key in sending an innocent man to prison. but who needs such things as a good education? who is going to know? i question how adaptive it is to utilize the same cognitive distortion in clinical practice (e.g., "who is going to know?") that criminals use when committing their crimes.

i know that advocating for this honesty must sound like a radical thing.


Markp,

right on. he/she needs to determine if the emotional reasons for seeking the doctorate have an emotional valence higher than the emotional valence of the consequences.

 

[FranklinR]

franklin,
pay attention to what i wrote. i did not state that i do not understand why someone does not want to move. i stated it is inconceivable to me that the emotional valence of moving is higher than pretty much any other decision including attempting to go to grad school. the OP is willing to consider, desperately even, taking out loans that are equitable to the cost of a house, so finances are not the issue at hand.

It's difficult to understand why moving away from spouse and children and friends could be difficult? It's hard to understand that losing money selling a house (if required) would be an additional financial burden - not just loans, but a significant loss?

regarding your first point: by your logic we could call individuals who falsify documents to create a fake doctorate and get a license "good decision makers" or "lucky". or committing insurance fraud by billing more hours than you actually did would be a "good decision". hell, by your logic individuals who use anabolic steroids to increase muscle mass are "good decision makers". see, the logic does not work. the honest thing to do is to put in the work and derive the associated benefits. to cut corners necessitates missing out on some aspect of the education, assessment, therapy or whatever. i know i chose my most recent surgical consult by finding a physician who graduated from northwestern. why? because he put in enough effort to get into a great med school and then put in even more effort to graduate from a great school. i know i would prefer to see someone with that kind of dedication to his craft. the honest thing is to put in the actual work and receive the actual benefits.

Attending an APA approved program is hardly fraud, or cheating, or cutting corners. Imagine this: I can get from my house to the library by walking or driving. If I drive, it's faster, easier and costs more. If I walk, it's free and I get exercise. Walking therefore has extra benefits. But if I drive, I'm not 'cheating,' and I end up at the library.

as for asking about where you got your doctorate. EVERY SINGLE deposition i have ever done has included where i went to school. in fact it is part of every depo. and EVERY SINGLE testimony. and the MAJORITY of my patients has asked about my education and examined my diploma on my wall. hell i was even asked where i went to school when i attended a pharmaceutical dinner. hell, there was even a major scandal in the forensic world last year wherein a supposed "expert" was discovered to have graduated from an online school. furthermore, his piss poor assessment had been key in sending an innocent man to prison. but who needs such things as a good education? who is going to know? i question how adaptive it is to utilize the same cognitive distortion in clinical practice (e.g., "who is going to know?") that criminals use when committing their crimes.

You're right. If you're going to be doing depositions, you're going to be asked where you went to school. And at dinners, people trying to make conversation are going to ask you where you went to school. And if you have your diploma on the wall (and who doesn't) people are going to look at it. Those aren't the same thing as a patient choosing a therapist based on where he or she went to school. I'm no longer in practice, but nobody ever asked me. When I talk to my friends who are in practice, they say nobody ever asks them, but it's possible that they are the exception.

i know that advocating for this honesty must sound like a radical thing.

Several things about your response confuse me.

First is the idea that going to an APA accredited program is dishonest. The APA is presumably in the best position to determine whether or not a program meets basic quality criteria. Regardless of that, however, attending a program that meets APA criteria, then later saying "I went to a program that met APA and state licensing criteria" is hardly dishonest, and your assertion that it is is just confusing.

Second is that you seem very invested in this distinction, and a little hostile about the discussion. I don't know why. It doesn't really matter why, except that your (inexplicable) vehemence comes in a thread started by someone looking for advice and guidance during an emotionally troubling time.

 

[psychmama]

TO Rapunzel,
I want to say that I feel for you in your situation. As someone who didn't decide to become a psychologist until my 40's, I understand how difficult the choices are that you face. I believe you have a lot of determination, and I bet you'll figure this out! I won't bore you with details of my situation, but I think there are many paths to getting what you want. Don't let others make you doubt yourself. They are not you, and they don't know what will make you happy.

BTW, one of my practicum supervisors was a Fielding grad, and she knows her stuff and is very successful.

Hang in there.

 

[PsyDr]

franklinr,

1) i believe the OP has many emotions tied to both staying in his/her area and obtaining a doctorate. he/she has also expressed interest in professional activities that would likely necessitate moving at some poitn (e.g., academic appoinment). i encouraged her to confront these emotions with the help of a professional.

we do not know anything about the OP's value of his/her house and therefore cannot make any statement either way.

2) i did not specify fielding in my response. you did. i have made my opinion known that distance education is a poor substitute for a brick and mortar education. in my experience while both are called "dr", one is revered while the other scorned. as for your results based argument: this is a logical fallacy. using your logic there is no difference between a rapist and a person who had consensual sex. the manner in which something is obtained counts.

3) the OP has specifed that she wants to do "teaching and research, not to mention testing". In my experience if one does enough testing he/she eventually gets subpoenaed. as for his/her former desire, a review of APA job postings indicates that these jobs require a PhD from an APA accredited program, an APA approved internship, an extensive publication history and a history of extramural funding. this is likely to be incompatible with distance education.

4) the OP has not expressed an interest in being a therapist. he/she has stated that he/she wants a doctorate for the aforementioned activities in which credentials count. he/she is already credentialed to be a therapist. i have simply stated that in my experience in the assessment world, credentials count. as they did when i was in academia.

5)

a) again, my assertions is that equal work should receive equal benefit. distance education in all formats is not equitable by definition.

b) i believe that distance education programs attempt to exploit people by offering what they call equitable education when it clearly is not. exploitation of people in all its many forms, does anger me a great deal.

c)i make these statements because i believe that psychologists are scientist concerned with the truth. as such, i believe the most humane thing to do is to inform the OP abut the opinions of her prospective choices, even if they are painful to hear and allow him/her to decide. so far it seems like your opinion is that fielding is super great and mine is that it sucks.

 

[Rapunzel]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! Yes, this is painful. You have also given me a lot to think about, and that is what I need.

I always wanted to be a psychologist, and that is still what I want, although I always doubted that I would get the chance, and I still have the same doubt. A large part of my question here is "Do I have a chance, or is it time to focus exclusively on other options?" Another part of the question is "Would it be worth it at this point?"

Why I want to be a psychologist is another good question. Generally, my experience has been that psychologists are better at understanding people and knowing how to help than master's level therapists. Among both the therapists that I have seen as a client, and the instructors and supervisors from whom I have received training, I respect the psychologists more (with some exceptions) because they have been more professional, more ethical, more skilled, etc. I think that they generally have better training and more dedication and motivation to do what it takes, to pay attention to detail, and to meet higher quality standards. I want to be in that group, because I want to be like them, and I want to make a real contribution to this field. I want better training and skills than I have gotten in my master's level training. I feel that I am capable of more, and I want to do more. I would like to belong to the APA and be part of the group that makes the decisions about where this field is going. I don't want to be as limited as I am now. Some of my motivation is related to prestige. I often feel excluded and "less than" as someone who settled for the master's program that I did. I always wanted more, but it has to be better than nothing, right? Even on this forum, I am still finding myself wanting to belong, and I have felt excluded here and judged less valuable because I have been on a different path. I felt better about myself when I was at least a little bit hopeful of having a chance at being accepted.

On the question of moving, moving is the story of my life. I have lived all over the U.S. and outside the U.S. too. The longest that I have ever lived in one place was 8 years, and that was way too long. I would like to be able to go wherever I can find the best match and find a program willing to give me a chance. I would consider internships all over, and could see going for a year, and then see what happens after that. But I am geographically limited right now, because two years ago my husband got a job in state administration, and this would not be a good time for him to go someplace else. We also bought a house two years ago (selling our old house as the market began to crash, but paying twice as much for the new house, which we could not sell now for what we owe on it).

To be honest, I'm not even sure that I want to stay with my husband, but that is another matter. I still have a responsibility to my children, and it wouldn't be right for me to leave them and go off somewhere at this point, especially when they would probably lose their home in the process, with loss of my contribution to the mortgage, and the need for me to develop a seperate household (even at grad student standards). Not to mention pets. So we're talking about disrupting the whole family at a critical point for something that I wanted to do and should have done before starting a family. I'm not sure I could live with myself if I did that. But I also found out the hard way that I couldn't live with myself without trying to reclaim my life, either.

I've been a distance student. My last undergraduate year was from my original school, but accessed remotely (classes by internet and sattelite). I can do the work that way, and I am good at independent learning, but it was very lonely and disappointing. Part of what I still feel is missing is having the support of a peer group going through the same experience with me. I had that at the beginning of my master's program, before moving, but it was never the same joining a new, much bigger, class, as an outsider. I also want to participate in the mentoring approach found in many university programs. I want a relationship with someone who can teach me and model for me, and hopefully I would be able to reciprocate by assisting with their research, etc. I never have had anything like that.

Yes, I still have a lot to figure out, and I still go to therapy too. I could really benefit from some unbiased perspectives on where I am now and what options are likely to be open or closed to me.

I'm confused about the suggestions to pursue social work, as I don't see what that would add to what I already have (I can be an LPC with two years of applicable work experience now). I already am working as a therapist. Started as a student intern, and will continue as a CPCI soon.

Psychmama, and others who got off to a late start, I would love to hear your stories if you are willing to share them, as well as any advice you may have.

Thanks again!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm no longer in practice, but nobody ever asked me. When I talk to my friends who are in practice, they say nobody ever asks them, but it's possible that they are the exception.

I thought you were applying to programs this year?

 

[FranklinR]

I thought you were applying to programs this year?

I am. I was in practice as a master's level therapist for three years. Why do you ask?

 

[prettypandee]

to make yourself a stronger candidate, you probably need a higher score to be more competitive.
i was taking post bac classes and doing research at one of the top schools in the US, receiving As in the courses (i didn't major in psych as an undergrad), had a competitive GRE score, and didn't get oneinterview last year. i realized that i didn't put enough time into my application or tailor my application appropriately (very important), but even before the applicaton process, my abnormal psychoogy professor/clinical adviser there told me that many students from this university had to apply two or three times until they were accepted and that it was stamina and not getting down and giving up that will get applicants into graduate school. he also suggested applying to 12-13 schools to receive an offer, even though you might meet the average or exceed the average stats for the GRE or GPA. it made me really sad last year to not even receive an interview, and my first reaction was to think that i wasn't smart or good enough, but now with four interviews so far, i realize it was a combination of bad luck and not knowing the process well enough.
it's hard process, but you can help plan for next year by emailing professors and asking them for advice and i'm sure the experience you'll have working this year will definately make your application stronger. his best advice for me was to not give up and to reapply.

Wow, thanks for all the replies! Yes, this is painful. You have also given me a lot to think about, and that is what I need.

I always wanted to be a psychologist, and that is still what I want, although I always doubted that I would get the chance, and I still have the same doubt. A large part of my question here is "Do I have a chance, or is it time to focus exclusively on other options?" Another part of the question is "Would it be worth it at this point?"

Why I want to be a psychologist is another good question. Generally, my experience has been that psychologists are better at understanding people and knowing how to help than master's level therapists. Among both the therapists that I have seen as a client, and the instructors and supervisors from whom I have received training, I respect the psychologists more (with some exceptions) because they have been more professional, more ethical, more skilled, etc. I think that they generally have better training and more dedication and motivation to do what it takes, to pay attention to detail, and to meet higher quality standards. I want to be in that group, because I want to be like them, and I want to make a real contribution to this field. I want better training and skills than I have gotten in my master's level training. I feel that I am capable of more, and I want to do more. I would like to belong to the APA and be part of the group that makes the decisions about where this field is going. I don't want to be as limited as I am now. Some of my motivation is related to prestige. I often feel excluded and "less than" as someone who settled for the master's program that I did. I always wanted more, but it has to be better than nothing, right? Even on this forum, I am still finding myself wanting to belong, and I have felt excluded here and judged less valuable because I have been on a different path. I felt better about myself when I was at least a little bit hopeful of having a chance at being accepted.

On the question of moving, moving is the story of my life. I have lived all over the U.S. and outside the U.S. too. The longest that I have ever lived in one place was 8 years, and that was way too long. I would like to be able to go wherever I can find the best match and find a program willing to give me a chance. I would consider internships all over, and could see going for a year, and then see what happens after that. But I am geographically limited right now, because two years ago my husband got a job in state administration, and this would not be a good time for him to go someplace else. We also bought a house two years ago (selling our old house as the market began to crash, but paying twice as much for the new house, which we could not sell now for what we owe on it).

To be honest, I'm not even sure that I want to stay with my husband, but that is another matter. I still have a responsibility to my children, and it wouldn't be right for me to leave them and go off somewhere at this point, especially when they would probably lose their home in the process, with loss of my contribution to the mortgage, and the need for me to develop a seperate household (even at grad student standards). Not to mention pets. So we're talking about disrupting the whole family at a critical point for something that I wanted to do and should have done before starting a family. I'm not sure I could live with myself if I did that. But I also found out the hard way that I couldn't live with myself without trying to reclaim my life, either.

I've been a distance student. My last undergraduate year was from my original school, but accessed remotely (classes by internet and sattelite). I can do the work that way, and I am good at independent learning, but it was very lonely and disappointing. Part of what I still feel is missing is having the support of a peer group going through the same experience with me. I had that at the beginning of my master's program, before moving, but it was never the same joining a new, much bigger, class, as an outsider. I also want to participate in the mentoring approach found in many university programs. I want a relationship with someone who can teach me and model for me, and hopefully I would be able to reciprocate by assisting with their research, etc. I never have had anything like that.

Yes, I still have a lot to figure out, and I still go to therapy too. I could really benefit from some unbiased perspectives on where I am now and what options are likely to be open or closed to me.

I'm confused about the suggestions to pursue social work, as I don't see what that would add to what I already have (I can be an LPC with two years of applicable work experience now). I already am working as a therapist. Started as a student intern, and will continue as a CPCI soon.

Psychmama, and others who got off to a late start, I would love to hear your stories if you are willing to share them, as well as any advice you may have.

Thanks again!

 

[cara susanna]

Her GRE is higher than mine and I got interviews, but I also made sure to apply to programs with lower GRE cutoffs or no cutoff at all.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

+1 to everything JS wrote.

 

[researchgirl]

I might be missing something, but it sounds as though you lack solid research experience. It also sounds as though your primary goal is to be a clinician, not a researcher. From my experience, both of these are huge detriments to applications, particularly for clinical psychology phd programs (I know less about counseling). A PhD requires you to think like and act like a scientist, and do a high quantity of research. Do your applications suggest that you are (1) capable and (2) interested in doing research? Do they demonstrate a good fit with the research currently being done by faculty members? If not, I think you have found your answer as to why you haven't been successful.

It seems curious to me that you really want a PhD in order to be a therapist. The curiculum of a clinical psychology PhD differs from a MA/MS level program only in its intensity of research and extra years in practicum/internship - which is experience you could gain through more years in the field and less spent in school.

My overall suggestion is to more clearly define your goals and then see what educational program might fit your needs (if any at all - since you are on your way to being an LPC), instead of picking a program that sounds enticing and trying to become a good candidate for it.

Additionally, while I will not comment on any of the things going on in your personal life, I will say that graduate school is very demanding in EVERY area of your life, and seems as though it would be smarter to resolve some of those issues before embarking on graduate work.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It seems curious to me that you really want a PhD in order to be a therapist. The curiculum of a clinical psychology PhD differs from a MA/MS level program only in its intensity of research and extra years in practicum/internship - which is experience you could gain through more years in the field and less spent in school.

I strongly disagree. The material I believe is covered in a different breadth and depth between an MS and a Ph.D/Psy.D. class. I think of the MS level being more "nuts and bolts", while the doctoral training has a great deal more time and focus on the theoretical aspect of things. It isn't that one is "better" than the other, but the approach is definitely different.

 

[Rapunzel]

Jon and TfC, I think you are both understanding my situation pretty well. I know that the clinical training has more depth at the doctoral level. I have read the program manuals from the doctoral programs I have applied to or considered. I want to take those classes. And I would value the research training and experience too.

I have been in school for the last 5 1/2 years, minus one year of being a workaholic in between taking undergrad classes, and starting my master's program. Yes, I am working as a therapist now, and even though my supervisor tells me I'm doing well for the level I'm at, I still feel that the training I have had is lacking quite a bit. I may be able to master basic therapeutic skills and apply them to the populations I have experience with, but I'm still pretty limited, and I want to do better than this. I know that there are other options for enhancing my skills and training, and that experience will help too. But it isn't the same.

Five years ago, I wasn't ready. I hadn't recovered sufficiently from my depression, which had been severe. I still have abysmal self-esteem, but I can handle challenges now, and I am at the point where I need to take some risks and get through them, and develop more confidence by exercising what I have. A few years ago, my therapist (psychologist) was advising me that a doctoral program would be re-traumatizing, and not a supportive environment for me. She supported the master's program. Now she doesn't tell me one thing or another, but I took her asking about my plans to continue to be support that I'm ready for it now. Back then, maybe my children were too young (range from 6-12) to manage well with me gone to school most of the time. Now that the kids are 11-17 years old, and pretty independent, it seems more appropriate for me to commit to a demanding program. But am I too old now?

Financially, I would be fine in a funded program that didn't require moving. The stipends a lot of those programs pay are more than I made as a paraprofessional working full-time and over-time, and definitely better than my current part-time intern wages. I'm hesitant about taking on significantly more debt though.

If I could get accepted to a funded program close enough to my family, I would have no hesitation about going for that. All of the costs of going to a PhD program would be less than the costs of giving up on my goal. There are five programs meeting this criteria that I could apply to again (I have been rejected by all of them, but had an interview at one three years ago, and two of those rejections were five years ago, when I definitely wasn't ready - I have not applied to any program more than once).

For me, the dilemma occurs when I consider whether I would have a chance if I applied again to those five programs, or if I consider compromises such as programs further away, unfunded programs, or compromising or changing my goal.

 

[psychmama]

Rapunzel,

If you want, feel free to PM me. There are a number of parallels in our situations. I'm happy to share my experiences (such as they are).