what questions to ask when interview at jobs

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heathermed

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hello everyone

for those that are more experienced, I was wondering if we could get some advice on what are the important things to ask and look at specifically when interviewing for jobs.

I had my first phone interview today and felt slightly unprepared and lost.

When is a good time to talk about productivity bonuses, salary, vacation and other such things. I don't want to come across as money hungry but I don't want to waste rounds of interviews and then find out that the compensation is not something I'm willing to take.

Also, what are some red flags that perhaps a new grad may not be savvy enough to detect?

thank you

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Ask for the names of people who have left in the last five years. Ask why and if you can contact them. If a group is legit they will give you the names and the reason those people left; contact them if you want confirmation. If they don't give you names then that's a red flag.

As far as the rest, let them offer the contract and see if it fits you. Then if there are things you don't like make a list and prioritize the negative things by importance to your situation. Address them in order, like if they won't budge on vacation maybe the salary can be bumped up, ect.
 
You'll want to know the structure, 1099 vs. W2, who you are employed by. The salary structure. What benefits are/aren't included. A phone interview goes one of two ways, you either both like each other enough to meet in person or you don't. Either way it should be a pretty clear path. I would wait until after a formal interview to discuss money, but you should be able to tactfully get an idea prior to that if you press the issue.
 
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Ask how long into your parternship track will you be when they sell to an AMC and tell you to go f*** yourself.
 
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Ask how long into your parternship track will you be when they sell to an AMC and tell you to go f*** yourself.

This is a good one...if they won't put a stipulation in your contract to make you whole on your buy in in the event of a sell out, walk away.
 
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This is a good one...if they won't put a stipulation in your contract to make you whole on your buy in in the event of a sell out, walk away.

Would be curious how many partners out there think that this is a reasonable clause, and would agree to it for a new hire.
 
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Would be curious how many partners out there think that this is a reasonable clause, and would agree to it for a new hire.

If they are above board and their intentions are good, I would think so. The first private group I joined was back when this wasn't much of a threat, so I didn't discuss it with them. The 2nd private group I joined agreed to a buy in that included more work instead of $$.
 
Ask how long into your parternship track will you be when they sell to an AMC and tell you to go f*** yourself.

Funny because a friend is dealing with this exact scenario now.
 
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1) What's the salary?
2) How much vacation?
3) Post-call day off?
4) Number of deliveries/year?
(preferably you get a job with no OB)
5) How much of the time will I be doing my own cases? Any answer > 1% is an absolute deal breaker
 
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Here's a cheat sheet I made up for our prospective applicants:


Anesthesia Private Practice Primer


Employment Models

-Employee: of the hospital, of the private group? Someone is almost assuredly making money off of your work. How are you paid? Salary? Hourly? Are your hours/responsibilities well defined or vague? Is everyone in the department an employee, or are there partners? Does everyone get paid the same? Mommy track/part time available?

-Employee with production: base salary plus production bonus (with either private group or hospital employment)

-Partnership track: how long? Is there a cash buy-in? Who decides (and what determines) if you become a partner? Are all partners equal (in salary, vacation, benefits, case mix, schedule, call schedule, voting rights)? What is the track record of the group with regards to making people partners? Lots of “two years and out” people in their history?

-Locums

-Solo Practitioner


Compensation

-Money: Salary? Hourly wage? Salary plus production? 100% production? Profit sharing? Is it equal? 1099 vs W2?

-Models:

-Straight salary

-Straight hourly wage

-Salary plus production (how is this calculated?)

-100% production aka “eat what you kill” (how is this calculated-units, hours? Are the units blended? Who makes the schedule?)

-Equal split of profits (everyone gets paid the same, but it varies each month depending on how much was billed. Does everyone do the same amount of work/hours/case mix?)

-Are there stipends for call, backup call, subgroup call, etc.

Benefits:

-insurance (malpractice, disability, life, health, dental, umbrella)

who covers malpractice tail/nose?

-Retirement-vehicles, time to 100% vesting, matching, profit sharing

-Vacation-how much? How chosen/assigned? How taken (i.e. day by day, hourly, week at a time)?

-Business expenses (licensing/DEA, society memberships/journal subscriptions, travel, CME, moving expenses, interview expenses, cell phone/internet, etc)-are they covered/reimbursed?

-Leave (maternity, FMLA, disability, sick days, personal emergencies)-how is it handled?

Practice Models

-MD only

-Medical direction of midlevels (AA, CRNA)

-meets the 7 criteria for med direction: pre-op eval, anesthetic plan, present for critical portions (induction, procedures, emergence, etc), immediately available, physically present for emergencies, monitor case at frequent intervals, post op care

-max 4:1 ratio

-reimbursed 50% of billing

-Medical supervision of midlevels

-does not meet the 7 criteria listed above, or participating in > 4 cases simultaneously

-reimbursed at lower rate

-“Collaborative” (side-by-side practice) with midlevels (who gets what cases and who decides this? Do you help each other out with emergencies? What is your liability for their cases? Is the surgeon “supervising” the midlevel (i.e. is this an opt-out state?)


Clinical Practice:

-Sites: how many? Do you practice at all of them? What kinds (hospital, office, ASC, pain clinic, ICU)? Does everybody practice everywhere? Are some sites “cushier” than others? Who decides who practices where?

-Case mix: General, OB, peds, CV, regional, thoracic, vascular, neuro, trauma, out-of –OR (radiology, GI, ED, cath lab, etc), ICU, pain

-How many OR’s? How many procedures/year? How many deliveries?

-are there “sub-groups” within the group/department? Who decides who’s in each group? Do subgroups require fellowship/certification?

-Does everybody do everything? Are there enough cases of each type to keep everybody’s skills up (especially peds, CV, TEE, procedures)?

-Is there high risk OB? High risk peds? Complex CV cases?

-Can you do ICU or pain as well as anesthesia? Does the group control or have anything to do with this? Does the group run the ICU? Does the group run a pain clinic? If so, how do they value your ICU/pain time? Will you be a solo ICU or pain practitioner outside of the group? Will the hospital employ you directly for these things while you remain a part of the group?

-Coverage: what are you responsible for?

-OR hours: what are they? How late can they go? Who runs the OR schedule? How many rooms are you contracted for at specific times of the day? Can the surgeons schedule whatever they want whenever they want (i.e. 3 am lap chole, Sunday morning total knee, etc)? How are emergencies handled? When are midlevels always available (do you have to relieve them at 3 pm, are they in-house at night, etc)?

-Who covers ICU? Codes? Airways (ED, code, ICU, etc)?

-Do you cover a pain service? Acute/chronic? Consults?

-Anesthesia schedule:

-who makes it (same person every day, third party scheduler, different person everyday, etc)? What determines when you leave? Who picks what rooms/cases you do? Do you finish your room(s) no matter what? Do you hand off cases?

-Call: where (in-house, from home)? What kind (general, subgroup, backup)?

-MD only groups may have many people on call each night, depending on services provided, number of rooms they are contracted to cover, OB/trauma service, etc.

-Equipment: Does the hospital/group have the equipment you need to do your job? US? TEE? Airway carts/equipment? Specialized peds instruments? Does everything work? Who fixes equipment (and how available/reliable are they)? Is there an EMR? Anesthesia EMR?

-How does the group practice?

-Where did they train? Are they BC/BE? Are they fellowship-trained? Are they dangerous? Are they spread too thin?

-Do they help each other out? Cover for each other? Start rooms for each other? Respond to emergencies? See your pre/post-op patients?

-How’s their relationship with the surgeons? What happens if you cancel cases?


Contracts:

-Employment Contracts:

-Do you get one? What are your duties/responsibilities?

-Is everyone’s the same?

-Compensation/benefits-get specifics

-Leaving: when/why/how can you be fired or quit? Is there a minimum time you have to stay? How much notice do you have to give prior to leaving? Is there a non-compete clause (and is it binding or ever enforced)? If you got a sign-on bonus, do you have to pay it back? Do they have to warn you before terminating you? Is there probation/remediation? Can you be fired with/without cause? Who makes hiring/firing decisions and how are they made?

-Have an employment lawyer look it over. Money well spent.

-Hospital Contracts:

-does the group have them? What are the coverage responsibilities? Are they exclusive to your group (or do other groups also provide anesthesia services at your facililties)? How long have they been in place? Are multiple facilities’ contracts tied together or negotiated separately? How long are they for? Who negotiates them for your group? Does the group contract with multiple hospital/clinic systems or just one? Does the group get a stipend from the hospital? If so, why and how much? Are there other anesthesia groups locally? How big are they? Do they get stipends? Do large anesthesia management companies (AMCs) provide anesthesia services locally?

Group Dynamics:

-Private Group: What is the group structure? Are their officers or an administrative board? How/how often are these selected? How are group decisions made (by officers, by full group vote, by board vote, by individuals, etc)? Who gets to vote (full partners, employees, locums)? Are there committees? Are you required to serve on them? How frequently does the group (or the board) meet? On a schedule, or only when they need to? How is discipline handled? Is the group collegial? Do they meet socially? How transparent is it? Can everyone see the books/schedule? Is the schedule flexible? Do partners work for each other? How is this reimbursed (fixed rate, personal negotiations, etc)?

-What is the relationship with midlevels (employed, subcontracted, hospital-employed, private group, etc)? Is it collegial/professional/adversarial/hostile?
 
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At what point can I expect comparable pay for doing comparable work to other docs in the practice? Seniority based perks?
Governance structure? Who answers to who? Voting rights?
 
this is awesome thanks!!!

currently searching and reading the existing threads now, but what are your feelings and thoughts on buy in's for PP?

What is common practice? What's fair, what's not? How do you evaluate a buy in? What are red flags that would make you walk away?

Here's a cheat sheet I made up for our prospective applicants:


Anesthesia Private Practice Primer


Employment Models

-Employee: of the hospital, of the private group? Someone is almost assuredly making money off of your work. How are you paid? Salary? Hourly? Are your hours/responsibilities well defined or vague? Is everyone in the department an employee, or are there partners? Does everyone get paid the same? Mommy track/part time available?

-Employee with production: base salary plus production bonus (with either private group or hospital employment)

-Partnership track: how long? Is there a cash buy-in? Who decides (and what determines) if you become a partner? Are all partners equal (in salary, vacation, benefits, case mix, schedule, call schedule, voting rights)? What is the track record of the group with regards to making people partners? Lots of “two years and out” people in their history?

-Locums

-Solo Practitioner


Compensation

-Money: Salary? Hourly wage? Salary plus production? 100% production? Profit sharing? Is it equal? 1099 vs W2?

-Models:

-Straight salary

-Straight hourly wage

-Salary plus production (how is this calculated?)

-100% production aka “eat what you kill” (how is this calculated-units, hours? Are the units blended? Who makes the schedule?)

-Equal split of profits (everyone gets paid the same, but it varies each month depending on how much was billed. Does everyone do the same amount of work/hours/case mix?)

-Are there stipends for call, backup call, subgroup call, etc.

Benefits:

-insurance (malpractice, disability, life, health, dental, umbrella)

who covers malpractice tail/nose?

-Retirement-vehicles, time to 100% vesting, matching, profit sharing

-Vacation-how much? How chosen/assigned? How taken (i.e. day by day, hourly, week at a time)?

-Business expenses (licensing/DEA, society memberships/journal subscriptions, travel, CME, moving expenses, interview expenses, cell phone/internet, etc)-are they covered/reimbursed?

-Leave (maternity, FMLA, disability, sick days, personal emergencies)-how is it handled?

Practice Models

-MD only

-Medical direction of midlevels (AA, CRNA)

-meets the 7 criteria for med direction: pre-op eval, anesthetic plan, present for critical portions (induction, procedures, emergence, etc), immediately available, physically present for emergencies, monitor case at frequent intervals, post op care

-max 4:1 ratio

-reimbursed 50% of billing

-Medical supervision of midlevels

-does not meet the 7 criteria listed above, or participating in > 4 cases simultaneously

-reimbursed at lower rate

-“Collaborative” (side-by-side practice) with midlevels (who gets what cases and who decides this? Do you help each other out with emergencies? What is your liability for their cases? Is the surgeon “supervising” the midlevel (i.e. is this an opt-out state?)


Clinical Practice:

-Sites: how many? Do you practice at all of them? What kinds (hospital, office, ASC, pain clinic, ICU)? Does everybody practice everywhere? Are some sites “cushier” than others? Who decides who practices where?

-Case mix: General, OB, peds, CV, regional, thoracic, vascular, neuro, trauma, out-of –OR (radiology, GI, ED, cath lab, etc), ICU, pain

-How many OR’s? How many procedures/year? How many deliveries?

-are there “sub-groups” within the group/department? Who decides who’s in each group? Do subgroups require fellowship/certification?

-Does everybody do everything? Are there enough cases of each type to keep everybody’s skills up (especially peds, CV, TEE, procedures)?

-Is there high risk OB? High risk peds? Complex CV cases?

-Can you do ICU or pain as well as anesthesia? Does the group control or have anything to do with this? Does the group run the ICU? Does the group run a pain clinic? If so, how do they value your ICU/pain time? Will you be a solo ICU or pain practitioner outside of the group? Will the hospital employ you directly for these things while you remain a part of the group?

-Coverage: what are you responsible for?

-OR hours: what are they? How late can they go? Who runs the OR schedule? How many rooms are you contracted for at specific times of the day? Can the surgeons schedule whatever they want whenever they want (i.e. 3 am lap chole, Sunday morning total knee, etc)? How are emergencies handled? When are midlevels always available (do you have to relieve them at 3 pm, are they in-house at night, etc)?

-Who covers ICU? Codes? Airways (ED, code, ICU, etc)?

-Do you cover a pain service? Acute/chronic? Consults?

-Anesthesia schedule:

-who makes it (same person every day, third party scheduler, different person everyday, etc)? What determines when you leave? Who picks what rooms/cases you do? Do you finish your room(s) no matter what? Do you hand off cases?

-Call: where (in-house, from home)? What kind (general, subgroup, backup)?

-MD only groups may have many people on call each night, depending on services provided, number of rooms they are contracted to cover, OB/trauma service, etc.

-Equipment: Does the hospital/group have the equipment you need to do your job? US? TEE? Airway carts/equipment? Specialized peds instruments? Does everything work? Who fixes equipment (and how available/reliable are they)? Is there an EMR? Anesthesia EMR?

-How does the group practice?

-Where did they train? Are they BC/BE? Are they fellowship-trained? Are they dangerous? Are they spread too thin?

-Do they help each other out? Cover for each other? Start rooms for each other? Respond to emergencies? See your pre/post-op patients?

-How’s their relationship with the surgeons? What happens if you cancel cases?


Contracts:

-Employment Contracts:

-Do you get one? What are your duties/responsibilities?

-Is everyone’s the same?

-Compensation/benefits-get specifics

-Leaving: when/why/how can you be fired or quit? Is there a minimum time you have to stay? How much notice do you have to give prior to leaving? Is there a non-compete clause (and is it binding or ever enforced)? If you got a sign-on bonus, do you have to pay it back? Do they have to warn you before terminating you? Is there probation/remediation? Can you be fired with/without cause? Who makes hiring/firing decisions and how are they made?

-Have an employment lawyer look it over. Money well spent.

-Hospital Contracts:

-does the group have them? What are the coverage responsibilities? Are they exclusive to your group (or do other groups also provide anesthesia services at your facililties)? How long have they been in place? Are multiple facilities’ contracts tied together or negotiated separately? How long are they for? Who negotiates them for your group? Does the group contract with multiple hospital/clinic systems or just one? Does the group get a stipend from the hospital? If so, why and how much? Are there other anesthesia groups locally? How big are they? Do they get stipends? Do large anesthesia management companies (AMCs) provide anesthesia services locally?

Group Dynamics:

-Private Group: What is the group structure? Are their officers or an administrative board? How/how often are these selected? How are group decisions made (by officers, by full group vote, by board vote, by individuals, etc)? Who gets to vote (full partners, employees, locums)? Are there committees? Are you required to serve on them? How frequently does the group (or the board) meet? On a schedule, or only when they need to? How is discipline handled? Is the group collegial? Do they meet socially? How transparent is it? Can everyone see the books/schedule? Is the schedule flexible? Do partners work for each other? How is this reimbursed (fixed rate, personal negotiations, etc)?

-What is the relationship with midlevels (employed, subcontracted, hospital-employed, private group, etc)? Is it collegial/professional/adversarial/hostile?
 
Here's a cheat sheet I made up for our prospective applicants:


Anesthesia Private Practice Primer


Employment Models

-Employee: of the hospital, of the private group? Someone is almost assuredly making money off of your work. How are you paid? Salary? Hourly? Are your hours/responsibilities well defined or vague? Is everyone in the department an employee, or are there partners? Does everyone get paid the same? Mommy track/part time available?

-Employee with production: base salary plus production bonus (with either private group or hospital employment)

-Partnership track: how long? Is there a cash buy-in? Who decides (and what determines) if you become a partner? Are all partners equal (in salary, vacation, benefits, case mix, schedule, call schedule, voting rights)? What is the track record of the group with regards to making people partners? Lots of “two years and out” people in their history?

-Locums

-Solo Practitioner


Compensation

-Money: Salary? Hourly wage? Salary plus production? 100% production? Profit sharing? Is it equal? 1099 vs W2?

-Models:

-Straight salary

-Straight hourly wage

-Salary plus production (how is this calculated?)

-100% production aka “eat what you kill” (how is this calculated-units, hours? Are the units blended? Who makes the schedule?)

-Equal split of profits (everyone gets paid the same, but it varies each month depending on how much was billed. Does everyone do the same amount of work/hours/case mix?)

-Are there stipends for call, backup call, subgroup call, etc.

Benefits:

-insurance (malpractice, disability, life, health, dental, umbrella)

who covers malpractice tail/nose?

-Retirement-vehicles, time to 100% vesting, matching, profit sharing

-Vacation-how much? How chosen/assigned? How taken (i.e. day by day, hourly, week at a time)?

-Business expenses (licensing/DEA, society memberships/journal subscriptions, travel, CME, moving expenses, interview expenses, cell phone/internet, etc)-are they covered/reimbursed?

-Leave (maternity, FMLA, disability, sick days, personal emergencies)-how is it handled?

Practice Models

-MD only

-Medical direction of midlevels (AA, CRNA)

-meets the 7 criteria for med direction: pre-op eval, anesthetic plan, present for critical portions (induction, procedures, emergence, etc), immediately available, physically present for emergencies, monitor case at frequent intervals, post op care

-max 4:1 ratio

-reimbursed 50% of billing

-Medical supervision of midlevels

-does not meet the 7 criteria listed above, or participating in > 4 cases simultaneously

-reimbursed at lower rate

-“Collaborative” (side-by-side practice) with midlevels (who gets what cases and who decides this? Do you help each other out with emergencies? What is your liability for their cases? Is the surgeon “supervising” the midlevel (i.e. is this an opt-out state?)


Clinical Practice:

-Sites: how many? Do you practice at all of them? What kinds (hospital, office, ASC, pain clinic, ICU)? Does everybody practice everywhere? Are some sites “cushier” than others? Who decides who practices where?

-Case mix: General, OB, peds, CV, regional, thoracic, vascular, neuro, trauma, out-of –OR (radiology, GI, ED, cath lab, etc), ICU, pain

-How many OR’s? How many procedures/year? How many deliveries?

-are there “sub-groups” within the group/department? Who decides who’s in each group? Do subgroups require fellowship/certification?

-Does everybody do everything? Are there enough cases of each type to keep everybody’s skills up (especially peds, CV, TEE, procedures)?

-Is there high risk OB? High risk peds? Complex CV cases?

-Can you do ICU or pain as well as anesthesia? Does the group control or have anything to do with this? Does the group run the ICU? Does the group run a pain clinic? If so, how do they value your ICU/pain time? Will you be a solo ICU or pain practitioner outside of the group? Will the hospital employ you directly for these things while you remain a part of the group?

-Coverage: what are you responsible for?

-OR hours: what are they? How late can they go? Who runs the OR schedule? How many rooms are you contracted for at specific times of the day? Can the surgeons schedule whatever they want whenever they want (i.e. 3 am lap chole, Sunday morning total knee, etc)? How are emergencies handled? When are midlevels always available (do you have to relieve them at 3 pm, are they in-house at night, etc)?

-Who covers ICU? Codes? Airways (ED, code, ICU, etc)?

-Do you cover a pain service? Acute/chronic? Consults?

-Anesthesia schedule:

-who makes it (same person every day, third party scheduler, different person everyday, etc)? What determines when you leave? Who picks what rooms/cases you do? Do you finish your room(s) no matter what? Do you hand off cases?

-Call: where (in-house, from home)? What kind (general, subgroup, backup)?

-MD only groups may have many people on call each night, depending on services provided, number of rooms they are contracted to cover, OB/trauma service, etc.

-Equipment: Does the hospital/group have the equipment you need to do your job? US? TEE? Airway carts/equipment? Specialized peds instruments? Does everything work? Who fixes equipment (and how available/reliable are they)? Is there an EMR? Anesthesia EMR?

-How does the group practice?

-Where did they train? Are they BC/BE? Are they fellowship-trained? Are they dangerous? Are they spread too thin?

-Do they help each other out? Cover for each other? Start rooms for each other? Respond to emergencies? See your pre/post-op patients?

-How’s their relationship with the surgeons? What happens if you cancel cases?


Contracts:

-Employment Contracts:

-Do you get one? What are your duties/responsibilities?

-Is everyone’s the same?

-Compensation/benefits-get specifics

-Leaving: when/why/how can you be fired or quit? Is there a minimum time you have to stay? How much notice do you have to give prior to leaving? Is there a non-compete clause (and is it binding or ever enforced)? If you got a sign-on bonus, do you have to pay it back? Do they have to warn you before terminating you? Is there probation/remediation? Can you be fired with/without cause? Who makes hiring/firing decisions and how are they made?

-Have an employment lawyer look it over. Money well spent.

-Hospital Contracts:

-does the group have them? What are the coverage responsibilities? Are they exclusive to your group (or do other groups also provide anesthesia services at your facililties)? How long have they been in place? Are multiple facilities’ contracts tied together or negotiated separately? How long are they for? Who negotiates them for your group? Does the group contract with multiple hospital/clinic systems or just one? Does the group get a stipend from the hospital? If so, why and how much? Are there other anesthesia groups locally? How big are they? Do they get stipends? Do large anesthesia management companies (AMCs) provide anesthesia services locally?

Group Dynamics:

-Private Group: What is the group structure? Are their officers or an administrative board? How/how often are these selected? How are group decisions made (by officers, by full group vote, by board vote, by individuals, etc)? Who gets to vote (full partners, employees, locums)? Are there committees? Are you required to serve on them? How frequently does the group (or the board) meet? On a schedule, or only when they need to? How is discipline handled? Is the group collegial? Do they meet socially? How transparent is it? Can everyone see the books/schedule? Is the schedule flexible? Do partners work for each other? How is this reimbursed (fixed rate, personal negotiations, etc)?

-What is the relationship with midlevels (employed, subcontracted, hospital-employed, private group, etc)? Is it collegial/professional/adversarial/hostile?
This is fabulous!
 
this is awesome thanks!!!

currently searching and reading the existing threads now, but what are your feelings and thoughts on buy in's for PP?

What is common practice? What's fair, what's not? How do you evaluate a buy in? What are red flags that would make you walk away?

I can tell you about my buy-in, which is typical for my metro area. Mine was a three year buy in with sweat equity only (I didn't have to write a check). I had a fixed salary the first year, salary plus 20% of partner "bonus" the second year, and salary plus 40% of partner "bonus" the third year. The total three year difference between my W2 and a partner W2 over three years was about a million dollars. That's definitely a steep price to pay, for sure. When making the calculations, I looked at how many years it would take to "break even" on this partner track versus taking a higher starting salary employed position. For the options I knew about (which started between $300k and $400k with little to no improvement), that time period was about 5 years. After the five year time period, I do (and have done) better on the partnership track, with each year as a partner just increasing that gap as compared to an employed position. If there's no change in income level on either pathway, I'm up $3-6 million over the course of my career (depending on how long I work). The additional upsides of my gig are complete autonomy for the group, total equality/transparency among all partners, great benefits, lots of vacation, great group of partners, excellent relationships with surgeons and administration.

The partnership track is not without risk, however. I could have not made partner (only happened twice in 35 years of group history), the group could have been bought out (no AMC presence in my state currently), the group could have lost hospital contracts (group very enmeshed in hospital admin/committees/etc). All these are very real risks for most groups. I evaluated the likelihood of any of these things happening against the potential rewards and took the leap. It has worked out better then I ever thought.

As for what's fair, it doesn't really matter. It matters what the market reality is in the area you want to work. Supply and demand. If demand is high and supply is low, you can probably negotiate. If the opposite is true, you're probably gonna get a take-it-or-leave-it offer. "Fair" is merely an academic/philosophic question.

Red flags for me would be history of people not making partner, AMCs or hospitals buying up practices left and right in your area, "super partners", lack of transparency, lack of engagement with the hospital admin. All of those things would give me pause. In the end, you gotta look at the upsides vs the downsides and make an educated guess whether a partnership track is for you.

One thing that is rarely discussed is whether one wants (or has the stomach for) practice ownership/management. Some people would rather punch a clock, get a steady paycheck, and not worry about the day to day of running a business. For me, if receipts are down, I make less money. I never know how much my paycheck will be month to month. If we have people retire/leave/get sick/etc, we have to suck it up and work more to cover our commitments. With an employed position, you are pretty insulated from this kind of thing. Private practice is touted as the optimal setup (which I agree with for me), but it's certainly not for everybody.
 
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I can tell you about my buy-in, which is typical for my metro area. Mine was a three year buy in with sweat equity only (I didn't have to write a check). I had a fixed salary the first year, salary plus 20% of partner "bonus" the second year, and salary plus 40% of partner "bonus" the third year. The total three year difference between my W2 and a partner W2 over three years was about a million dollars. That's definitely a steep price to pay, for sure. When making the calculations, I looked at how many years it would take to "break even" on this partner track versus taking a higher starting salary employed position. For the options I knew about (which started between $300k and $400k with little to no improvement), that time period was about 5 years. After the five year time period, I do (and have done) better on the partnership track, with each year as a partner just increasing that gap as compared to an employed position. If there's no change in income level on either pathway, I'm up $3-6 million over the course of my career (depending on how long I work). The additional upsides of my gig are complete autonomy for the group, total equality/transparency among all partners, great benefits, lots of vacation, great group of partners, excellent relationships with surgeons and administration.

The partnership track is not without risk, however. I could have not made partner (only happened twice in 35 years of group history), the group could have been bought out (no AMC presence in my state currently), the group could have lost hospital contracts (group very enmeshed in hospital admin/committees/etc). All these are very real risks for most groups. I evaluated the likelihood of any of these things happening against the potential rewards and took the leap. It has worked out better then I ever thought.

As for what's fair, it doesn't really matter. It matters what the market reality is in the area you want to work. Supply and demand. If demand is high and supply is low, you can probably negotiate. If the opposite is true, you're probably gonna get a take-it-or-leave-it offer. "Fair" is merely an academic/philosophic question.

Red flags for me would be history of people not making partner, AMCs or hospitals buying up practices left and right in your area, "super partners", lack of transparency, lack of engagement with the hospital admin. All of those things would give me pause. In the end, you gotta look at the upsides vs the downsides and make an educated guess whether a partnership track is for you.

One thing that is rarely discussed is whether one wants (or has the stomach for) practice ownership/management. Some people would rather punch a clock, get a steady paycheck, and not worry about the day to day of running a business. For me, if receipts are down, I make less money. I never know how much my paycheck will be month to month. If we have people retire/leave/get sick/etc, we have to suck it up and work more to cover our commitments. With an employed position, you are pretty insulated from this kind of thing. Private practice is touted as the optimal setup (which I agree with for me), but it's certainly not for everybody.


Thanks so much so sharing. Sounds like you really made the right move. A few follow up questions:

1. What's the average length of partnership tracks?
2. Are the buy ins typically structured as you described in your scenario? (Less salary than the partners?)
3. In the event a practice sells out, do groups give you back the buy in?
4. If a mid size city has a 4-5 main groups and one of them is bought out by an amc, is that a sign of the others to follow suit?
5. What characteristics of a group make it less likely to sell out to an AMC? (Number of partners? Relationship with the hospital? Age of the partners? How well the group is doing from a financial aspect?)

Seems like joining a pp can turn out great but risk is involved. I feel like knowing how to evaluate a pp for the the risk of buy out prior to making partner is key. Obviously nothing is a perfect science, but something is better than nothing (like using sts score in evaluating high risk patients for tavr vs savr?)
 
Thanks so much so sharing. Sounds like you really made the right move. A few follow up questions:

1. What's the average length of partnership tracks?
2. Are the buy ins typically structured as you described in your scenario? (Less salary than the partners?)
3. In the event a practice sells out, do groups give you back the buy in?
4. If a mid size city has a 4-5 main groups and one of them is bought out by an amc, is that a sign of the others to follow suit?
5. What characteristics of a group make it less likely to sell out to an AMC? (Number of partners? Relationship with the hospital? Age of the partners? How well the group is doing from a financial aspect?)

Seems like joining a pp can turn out great but risk is involved. I feel like knowing how to evaluate a pp for the the risk of buy out prior to making partner is key. Obviously nothing is a perfect science, but something is better than nothing (like using sts score in evaluating high risk patients for tavr vs savr?)

1. Varies. Some places there's no track; you're a partner from day 1. Others you'll never be a partner. In my city, all private groups are 3 years, except one who has a 5 year buy-in. Nationally it seems that most are one to two years.
2. Can be structured any number of ways. Some have fixed base salaries which may or may not go up as you proceed through the track. Others go on a percentage. Others you make a percentage of your collections or get paid by the hour. Some may have you write a huge check when you become partner (and may or may not loan you the money to do so). If you can think of it, someone's probably doing it.
3. Generally no. I've heard of some "junior partners" getting a smaller buy-out in the event of a sale while on the track, but they probably are not legally required to give you anything. Therein lies some of the risk.
4. This hasn't happened to my city (yet?), but it certainly can. Even a single buy-out in a metro area can cause crazy changes in the local market (groups eliminating partnership tracks and only hiring employees, people not retiring, etc. "circling the wagons").
5. Important characteristics making sale to an AMC would include:
-AMC wanting to buy (which is often related to how well a group is doing, as well as location, quality of the group, etc)
-age of partners

Another thing to consider is that not all AMC takeovers involve a buy-out. Sometimes (frequently?) the AMC will outcompete the PP group for a hospital contract. This is usually a money thing where the PP group requires some financial support from the hospital (usually a stipend for things like call, OB, code coverage, ICU, trauma, etc). The AMC will offer the same services (or more) for no (or lower) stipend, which they can do because their large group negotiates better reimbursement rates from third party payors. and they generally pay the MDs less. Basically they get paid more for the same work, so they don't need a stipend (and they make a huge profit for their shareholders!).

A third potential option is the hospital deciding to employ anesthesiologists. One common scenario is that they cancel the PP group's contract and try to hire all the PP group's MDs and/or supplement/replace them with new docs (or locums). Again, this does not involve a buyout. Just a loss of autonomy and income with no big payoff. Yay!
 
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One thing that is rarely discussed is whether one wants (or has the stomach for) practice ownership/management. Some people would rather punch a clock, get a steady paycheck, and not worry about the day to day of running a business. .




The above I quoted is a talking point of the management companies when trying to sell their company and scheme to you. Why bother looking at receipts and how much you are making when we can do that for you..... and take 1/2 of your salary..... MOTHER****ERS... I cant believe you said that dude...

Im for Zero groups and complete SOLO ANESTHESIA.. you do the case... you get paid.. you dont do the case you DONT GEt PAID.. You wanna sit in the office allday making schedules and writing policy for the whole hospital, let them pay you an hourly wage that they pay business people.
 
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"3. Generally no. I've heard of some "junior partners" getting a smaller buy-out in the event of a sale while on the track, but they probably are not legally required to give you anything. Therein lies some of the risk." - B-bone

This is hard to swallow...I invest a large sum in a new company. Company is doing well and gets bought out by Amazon. I would be happy and expect a return on my investment right? Seems like the opposite is true in this case.

I guess when you "buy in", you aren't really buying anything because you don't own any part of the private practice. Otherwise you would receive some of the payout from the AMC?

Although, making less money than the more SR people in the group isn't necessarily writing a check from your personal bank account. At, every job I've ever had the more SR people make more and that's totally normal. Looking at it that way makes more sense to me, but it's still interesting.

Do people generally look at "buy in" as the same as being the new hire making less just as the case in any company? I mean my brother working for JP morgan made only a fraction of what the SR guys were making for years. Slowly, he increased his pay. Or a teacher....couple of friends starting out teaching making 50K while the gym teacher who has been there for 25 years is making 100K. Same thing right?

Good to know and be prepared for this stuff, thanks so much for your input and sharing of personal experience!

Please feel free to share more thoughts, opinions, and advice. Anything you think of that is an ABSOLUTE MISTAKE to make when signing up a job?
 
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