What's the consensus on fraternities?

[Chemistry>Physics]

How do Adcoms view joining a fraternity, could it hurt your chances? Does it show that your preferences are in the wrong place because fraternities are more like drinking tanks than the character building institutions they used to be?

Thoughts?!


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[Espressso]

Completely dependent on the applicant.

 

[jtd2081]

Were you any sort of officer? I made a similar post and the general consensus was to try and play up the leadership role I had in the organization. In my work/activities thing I tried to use the word "fraternity" as little as I could. I kept using organization, or just not even using that word. Just playing up the leadership role. Depends on who reads the application IMO. I wouldn't think anything too bad about a frat, but someone else may think they are exactly what you said they were. Drinking tanks. I hope I was able to help.

 

[drkube]

Depends what you did in the fraternity. Leadership positions? Involved in philanthropy? If there is no significance besides social events I would not include it

 

[Chemistry>Physics]

Depends what you did in the fraternity. Leadership positions? Involved in philanthropy? If there is no significance besides social events I would not include it

Speaking in the hypothetical, all this candidate did for fraternity involvement was get recklessly drunk from Thursday to Sunday for all four years in college.


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[jtd2081]

No point to include that unless you wanna show adcoms how cool you are and that you can drink their sorry butts under the table.

In all seriousness no point including it if you weren't in a leadership role imo.

 

[coldcase331]

How do Adcoms view joining a fraternity, could it hurt your chances? Does it show that your preferences are in the wrong place because fraternities are more like drinking tanks than the character building institutions they used to be?

Thoughts?!


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Depends on your involvement, I played up a lot of my fraternity involvement because I was on Exec board for 3 years. Even if you did drink like most fraternity men do, did you participate in community service? Help with philanthropy events?

 

[Chemistry>Physics]

Would it be seen as a wrong move if you hid the activity and they found out later? Should it be mentioned without much detail?


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[Espressso]

Would it be seen as a wrong move if you hid the activity and they found out later? Should it be mentioned without much detail?


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I don't think not including it would necessarily be hiding it. You're simply not including it into your EC's for AMCAS because you feel as if you have other, more significant and meaningful ECs. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[drkube]

Speaking in the hypothetical, all this candidate did for fraternity involvement was get recklessly drunk from Thursday to Sunday for all four years in college.


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Your interviewers WILL ask you about your involvement with the fraternity and how much partying/drinking you did. It's up to you to mention the positive aspects of your fraternity, so hypothetically if thats all you did, I would not include it unless you like making your interviews more challenging.

Would it be seen as a wrong move if you hid the activity and they found out later? Should it be mentioned without much detail?

Nope. I didn't include activities that were not significant. Don't see this as any different

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

If you don't have significant involvement in the eBoard then don't list it. It'll just raise more questions than it answers

 

[clippers50fan]

Speaking in the hypothetical, all this candidate did for fraternity involvement was get recklessly drunk from Thursday to Sunday for all four years in college.


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I'd accept you.

 

[CCMDOC9254]

I left my fraternity involvement out of my application. But rather used the social skills I picked up through it to crush interviews. Drunkenly partying for 4 years honestly does teach you how to socialize with all kinds of different peeps


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[Nucleophile1]

Would it be seen as a wrong move if you hid the activity and they found out later? Should it be mentioned without much detail?


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No. Neglecting to put it on your application does not mean you are hiding it. You are not required to list every single thing you did in undergrad.

If, for some reason, adcoms asked if you were in a fraternity, I would be honest and only talk about the positive aspects (e.g. Philanthropy).

 

[Goro]

I personally think that being a frat member does nothing for you app unless you document all the positive things you do for the community.
otherwise, I have the more dim view that you've just been binge drinking, vomiting on your boaters and raping drunk co-eds.

How do Adcoms view joining a fraternity, could it hurt your chances? Does it show that your preferences are in the wrong place because fraternities are more like drinking tanks than the character building institutions they used to be?

Thoughts?!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[coldcase331]

raping drunk co-eds.

Let's not get too carried away here

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Let's not get too carried away here

As incredibly unfortunate as it is, this is actually the case at a small but significant percentage of chapters around the country.

I hate the media for making it seem like all frats participate in this kind of behavior. And I hate the public for being unable to fathom how the vast majority of Greek men are at worst interested in makeing fart jokes and drinking too much beer.

But the reality is things do happen, more than you'd think, in that small percentage of bad frats. Hence why, if you're going to claim frat membership it's so important to make clear all the positives you've contributed to the organization and community.

 

[coldcase331]

As incredibly unfortunate as it is, this is actually the case at a small but significant percentage of chapters around the country.

I hate the media for making it seem like all frats participate in this kind of behavior. And I hate the public for being unable to fathom how the vast majority of Greek men are at worst interested in makeing fart jokes and drinking too much beer.

But the reality is things do happen, more than you'd think, in that small percentage of bad frats. Hence why, if you're going to claim frat membership it's so important to make clear all the positives you've contributed to the organization and community.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, because we know it does. But I'm also saying that I've experienced a few cases of my brothers almost getting their lives ruined because of false allegations. It just makes it that much harder to believe the real victims.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Couldn't agree more. The number of victims I know personally is almost equal to the number of false accusation victims I know.

I remember one kid who had his life ruined over an allegation that happened when he wasn't even in the state. Lots of misguided intentions on both sides

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Rent a friend, join a frat.

 

[clippers50fan]

Rent a friend, join a frat.

You're right, everyone else never pays any sort of member dues for clubs or rent. Every single organization throws events for free but frats are the only ones that gotta pay!

 

[clippers50fan]

otherwise, I have the more dim view that you've just been binge drinking, vomiting on your boaters and raping drunk co-eds.

The first two literally describes any college student in general. Sadly the latter also does and is not unique to fraternities or Greek life.

 

[ZedsDed]

The first two literally describes any college student in general. Sadly the latter also does and is not unique to fraternities or Greek life.

Not to derail the thread, but I think it's better if we go with data rather than embracing harmful stereotypes.
1/52 women are sexually assaulted during their time on campus. Over half of these incidents are perpetuated at home by someone the victims know.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf
There aren't a whole lot of good studies out there on rape culture, but there are some that suggest that frat brothers are actually less likely to commit sexual assault:
http://louisdl.louislibraries.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16313coll12/id/3787

 

[raiderette]

Working with sexual abuse victims for several years, even at a college with heavy Greek presence, I found no difference. In fact the most common scenario would be someone meeting someone at a party that is not part of the event. Predators find the situation no matter where they are. Being in a fraternity does not make one a predator.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Rent a friend, join a crappy frat.

FTFY

 

[IlDestriero]

Fraternity parties took 1/2 the work out of picking up hotties. That leaves more time for studying.
That's a win-win!


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Il Destriero

 

[LateToTheGame755]

On a different note, if some of my work/experiences have to do with my fraternity, but I don't put my fraternity down as a separate entry would that look bad? For example, I was chosen to go to my fraternity's National Leadership Conference (which is on my AMCAS), I also included organizing my fraternity's fundraiser events for a campus wide philanthropy I am a part of. If it gets brought up in my interview, I do have plenty of "non-party" fraternity involvement, but I didn't think explaining it on AMCAS would do it justice/could possibly get misinterpreted. Do you all suggest I leave what I have, or take out any mention of my greek affiliation?

 

[Crayola227]

as long as everything else in an app seemed on the straight and narrow and I saw plenty of adult (meaning responsible) activities associated with the frat, I think it's completely fine to bring it up

but I think your app has to go over and above to get away with it

I'm not adcom but as someone that has negative bias towards frats and is a doc, I can say that if the app was stellar and the frat involvement looked mature, I could set stereotypes aside

I might be more inclined to give your app a chance to make sure I wasn't letting bias affect it
but that's only if on first pass you look like you're on track to be a top notch professional and your frat involved just looked like a stepping stone to public office

 

[theonlytycrane]

total frat move bro

 

[clippers50fan]

but I think your app has to go over and above to get away with it

To get away with it, as if being in Greek life is a crime.

 

[IlDestriero]

To get away with it, as if being in Greek life is a crime.

Someone didn't get a bid on Pledge Night...


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Il Destriero

 

[Benjoe11]

The same as any other EC, it's what you did with it that matters. If you didn't do anything, it's as irrelevant as the pre-med or environmental club that you signed up for during the involvement fair but never showed up for. Able to show impressive positive contributions to the campus community and surrounding city?? Adcoms are going to care what the organization was.

 

[abn632]

To get away with it, as if being in Greek life is a crime.

#greeklivesmatter

 

[clippers50fan]

Someone didn't get a bid on Pledge Night...


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Il Destriero

Hahah are you a fellow Greek?

I just think it's silly to think Greek and non-Greek members behave any differently or their party habits differ in anyway. Some members of my fraternity were sober and some of my non-Greek friends were the biggest partiers ever. This is all so silly.

 

[ZedsDed]

To get away with it, as if being in Greek life is a crime.

I don't care enough to be "outraged," but the soft prejudice against frats really just has little-to-no basis in reality. I very much doubt the reaction would have been so muted if Goro or others had stated "yeah I just assume sorority girls are dumb sluts unless they can prove otherwise on their application." I assume he was being hyperbolic, but being associated with rape, even in jest, is pretty un-cool to say the least.

This is all so silly.

That's one way to describe it

 

[jsf0120]

I personally think that being a frat member does nothing for you app unless you document all the positive things you do for the community.
otherwise, I have the more dim view that you've just been binge drinking, vomiting on your boaters and raping drunk co-eds.

Goro, is this true across the board? I have my fraternity involvement mentioned in personal statement, and my leadership positions as one of my MM experience. However, I talk about leading philanthropy, etc in experiences and how my response to friend being killed by a DUI was to implement safety policies in fraternity in personal statement.

 

[Goro]

It's my opinion. @gyngyn, @ mimelim@ @gonnif, @LizzyM, what say you??

Goro, is this true across the board? I have my fraternity involvement mentioned in personal statement, and my leadership positions as one of my MM experience. However, I talk about leading philanthropy, etc in experiences and how my response to friend being killed by a DUI was to implement safety policies in fraternity in personal statement.

 

[ZedsDed]

It's my opinion. @gyngyn, @ mimelim@ @gonnif, @LizzyM, what say you??

@mimelim Fixed that typo 4 u bruh

 

[LizzyM]

I have interviewed frat members who had significant positions of leadership in those organizations. I recall one who was tasked with hiring a cook for the house and who worked with the cook on meals and budgets.

If you had a management role in the running of the frat house, it could be "leadership".

Most frat members don't have that level of engagement, AFAIK.

 

[dougy]

Loved frat life. Included it in my app. Great friends, great parties, great people to stdy with too. 3 frat bros from my class current M1's, 2 more next year. Seriously hope each applicant evaluated on the basis of their own app, not some media bias based on jerks in OK or elsewhere. If I played lacrosse or football I would mention it, even though media filled with outrageous stories of player debauchery.

 

[MildredTB]

Curious to know if you adcom members view women's Greek letter organizations in the same way as fraternities? My sorority was stricter than strict (had a "house mom", no booze or boys in the house, zero hazing, risk management policies out the wazoo, etc) and we had numerous philanthropy projects, great leadership-building opportunities, and strong bonds with one another. But if people just see "binge drinking and partying" when they see any Greek letters, I guess I'll elect to leave that off of my apps.

 

[clippers50fan]

But having something about how you instituted safety policies at the frat in response to your friend being killed by a drunk driver would bring up the question of why would these rules be needed at all since the majority of frat members are likely under 21 and the legal drinking age. That adds to the negative perception

I completely understand your point, but why would this be limited to Greek life? Honestly in my experience Greek members are so much more responsible in their drinking/ partying habits versus non-members. As VP of mine I had to take care of a lot of problems my house would have and 90% of the time a person was too drunk/ had to have an ambulance called/ started a fight/ etc. they weren't involved in Greek life. We all take alcohol and safety classes and are educated on proper sexual conduct (i.e. sexual assault and whatnot) and do things that the general student body does NOT do. Out of every female I know, only one who was sexually assaulted was in a fraternity house. The countless others were by random people in the community, student body, or their friends.

I get that fraternities have negative stereotypes and I understand why some may have that, but to think that just because someone is in Greek life means they party anymore or drink anymore than literally any college student is naive. If this were actually true, why are the all-Greek, sorority, and even the fraternities GPA averages significantly higher at my undergrad than the overall GPA of the student body? Apparently having balance to ones life is effective.

I don't know. Ultimately it doesn't matter and I know for a fact my leadership roles in my fraternity won't leave me out of medical school, it's just annoying to hear these things coming from actual admissions officers.

 

[MildredTB]

I would have to agree with the Right Honorable Gentleman from West of St. Louis on this. The current perception of fraternities in media and across colleges administrations mostly negative as those are the events that get portrayed. That said documenting your leadership, discussing the strong things that you may do for the community, would be positive. But having something about how you instituted safety policies at the frat in response to your friend being killed by a drunk driver would bring up the question of why would these rules be needed at all since the majority of frat members are likely under 21 and the legal drinking age. That adds to the negative perception

How is this different than a group of high school or college students taking it upon themselves to bring awareness to the community and partner with organizations to help stop underage drinking after a tragic event? When an underage drunk driving accident killed a young adult and seriously injured another in my hometown, students stepped up to do something to stop that from happening to someone else. Same with people realizing there's a huge issue with sexual assault in colleges and universities and speaking out against it, collaborating with school officials and local agencies to make the institution a safer place for all. My reaction wouldn't be "ugh why are you associating with these people at all/why was this needed". It would be "good for them for recognizing a problem amongst their peer group and DOING something about it".

 

[coldcase331]

I get that fraternities have negative stereotypes and I understand why some may have that, but to think that just because someone is in Greek life means they party anymore or drink anymore than literally any college student is naive. If this were actually true, why are the all-Greek, sorority, and even the fraternities GPA averages significantly higher at my undergrad than the overall GPA of the student body? Apparently having balance to ones life is effective.

The funny thing is that both my parents are involved in hiring decisions in the business world. They actually choose to interview candidates from Greek organizations with decent GPA's because they know that this candidate will 1.) have some set of social skills and 2.) know how to balance a work/social life.

 

[sdhere1234]

Most of my leadership/community service activities were with members of my fraternity so I will definitely be mentioning it. It sucks that there's a negative perception of fraternities in general but I completely understand why.

I think if the fraternity was something important to you that helped developed your character throughout your college career then definitely mention it. If all you can say was, "I was in XYZ fraternity" then I wouldn't bother mentioning it.

 

[ZedsDed]

I completely understand your point, but why would this be limited to Greek life? Honestly in my experience Greek members are so much more responsible in their drinking/ partying habits versus non-members. As VP of mine I had to take care of a lot of problems my house would have and 90% of the time a person was too drunk/ had to have an ambulance called/ started a fight/ etc. they weren't involved in Greek life. We all take alcohol and safety classes and are educated on proper sexual conduct (i.e. sexual assault and whatnot) and do things that the general student body does NOT do. Out of every female I know, only one who was sexually assaulted was in a fraternity house. The countless others were by random people in the community, student body, or their friends.

I get that fraternities have negative stereotypes and I understand why some may have that, but to think that just because someone is in Greek life means they party anymore or drink anymore than literally any college student is naive. If this were actually true, why are the all-Greek, sorority, and even the fraternities GPA averages significantly higher at my undergrad than the overall GPA of the student body? Apparently having balance to ones life is effective.

I don't know. Ultimately it doesn't matter and I know for a fact my leadership roles in my fraternity won't leave me out of medical school, it's just annoying to hear these things coming from actual admissions officers.

It's pretty simple. AdCom members are, believe it or not, human beings and subject to persuasion via media scare tactics. I agree that it's kind of disappointing though.

 

[clippers50fan]

I am giving you my assessment of how the current perception of frats will be. Whether that perception is wholly inaccurate is besides the point. This is how is may be seen and interpreted by an adcom. Since medical schools get thousands of applications that need to be thinned to hundreds of interview slots to a hundred or so matriculated students, do you want the reader and evaluator of your application to see it with the tone and perception of this affecting their view? Speaking about drinking safety, to me, is just a way to remind them that frats are for drinking.

No I know and I appreciate that. Thank you for providing quality feedback, I know you're just telling the truth. It's just kind of frustrating considering it really did a lot of positives for me, but I barely emphasize it at all in my application. I bunched all my leadership positions into one activity and left it be at that. I hope adcom's see past the fraternity and focus on the leadership aspects.

 

[dougy]

On the other hand, tons of med students, doctors and adcoms were fraternity members, and being they are human beings and subject to persuasion, might just be the silent, unspoken extra boost you need to get in

 

[clippers50fan]

Oh god

On the other hand, tons of med students, doctors and adcoms were fraternity members, and being they are human beings and subject to persuasion, might just be the silent, unspoken extra boost you need to get in

Once a PIKE, always a PIKE!

oh god you're a Pike? I take back everything I said @Goro is right

Lol jk. It actually did get me my clinical research job so it definetly helps.

Also I heard some interviewers challenge you to make them your favorite mixed drink. I'll kill it.

 

[jsf0120]

@gonnif, is it a major red flag that I NEED to eliminate?