What's the deal with EM?

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peanutbutter45654

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Hi everyone. I am a first-year med student interested in EM. I am really confused why 555 spots did not fill. Can someone please explain this in very simple terms to me, as If you were talking to a child? I don't get why those spots weren't filled if there are still people who have to SOAP for EM. Will they just apply for those spots? What does this mean for the future of EM? Should I be considering other specialties?

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Bro if this is the future of our medical students… I’m speechless. Consider this thread dead!!!
 
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There are 3000 spots open now for every match in EM. Only 2500 people or so applied for EM this year. Boom. 555 open spots.

There are people who don’t match every year in all specialties, those that don’t match to what they wanted can SOAP into any open spot, in any specialty. So those 555 spots are free game for anyone that is unmatched, provided the program will take you during SOAP (which they will if they’re HCA, and honestly most programs need the warm body to function).

Go to Post #296 in the 555 spots thread, post written by Birdstrike. Excellent summary of what EM is up against. Google the ACEP workforce study for 2030, read it and between that and Birdstrike’s post you’ll realize why this is happening to EM and what it’s future is: bleak. Also read the Rape of Emergency Medicine, linked in a recent thread. That should be required to read before you can even do a SLOE rotation, let alone apply to EM.

You’ve been warned.
 
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Hi everyone. I am a first-year med student interested in EM. I am really confused why 555 spots did not fill. Can someone please explain this in very simple terms to me, as If you were talking to a child? I don't get why those spots weren't filled if there are still people who have to SOAP for EM. Will they just apply for those spots? What does this mean for the future of EM? Should I be considering other specialties?

Read this and share it with any of your cohorts even thinking about EM.

DONT DO IT

We could write about the negatives of EM until we're blue in the face, but if people don't believe it, it won't make a difference. The fact that 2,500 people are still going into it is proof the lies, the sales pitch, the swindle, are still working by and large.

But the facts remain the same. EM is a lie from the very name. Emergency Medicine is NOT emergency medicine. It's 90% something else. It should be renamed for what it is mostly, not for what it was supposed to be.

1) Lifestyle specialty - Lie
2) When you're off, you're off - Lie
3) Emergency Medicine is the medicine of emergencies - 90% Lie

4) You'll be the most rested of all specialties because days off - Lie
5) You won't be backstabbed and treated worse than dirt by administrators you'll never meet - Lie

It's biggest recruiting features and the reason most people go into it, are all false. Yet they still sell it that way, and enough bodies are showing up and buying in.

NO ONE should go into EM. No one. No EM grads, not foreign grads. NO ONE, until there is radical change focused on physician fairness, physician wellness and physician respect.

Until doctors are given carte blanche to rewrite the rules of the specialty, and administrators, regulators and step aside, NO ONE should.

They should tear up the textbooks and rewrite them. Start by taking the NAME off any textbook written by backstabbing EM physicians who testify against their own with testimony so bad they're sanctioned for it.

Entire chapters should be written about how you MUST do what administrators tell you or you'll be fired.

If the specialty was HONEST without it's recruits, honest with itself, at least that would be fair. But honest, they won't be. Because it would paint a picture so dark, so grim, so discouraging, they'd fear no one would every go into EM. Rather than take a stand, unionize, band together and fiercely use their leverage to make radical change for the better, they'd just rather lie.

Entire chapters should be written about you'll be depressed, groggy and snapping at your family when you're "off" because you worked till 7 am on your day "off." Jet-lag will be your life.

Entire chapters should be written about how your ED director will force/pressure/gaslight you into gaming the numbers of "door to doctor" times and 50 other metrics to please some administrator, while sick patients need you.

Entire chapters should be written explain how previous entire chapters should be ignored because "patients will demand you do X, Y, Z and you'll be fired if you don't 'please' the patients."

Entire chapters should be written on the fact that you'll be sued for NOT committing malpractice multiple times, for something you didn't do, that somebody else did or didn't do, no matter how defensive you practice medicine and that one of your colleges or bosses will make a big paycheck to ensure it happens.

All Emergency Medicine books should be retitled as "Mostly Data Entry & Corporate Profits Disguised as Urgent Care, with Some Emergencies" Seriously. I'm not joking. It's not okay to start lying already on THE COVER OF THE BOOK. Fix the specialty or RENAME IT!

Entire chapters should be written about using a computer on wheels, mouse, finger pad, clicking boxes, checking boxes, meaningful use, useless meaning, and data entry will be >50% of time spent.

Entire chapters should be written about how to pull yourself out of the inevitable psychosocial crisis the specialty will drive you to within 5 years or less through emotional exhaustion, while you're blamed for it by those that caused it.

Entire chapters should be written about being verbally abused by admitting doctors, consulting doctors, drunk/psychotic/violent patients 100 times to every 1 time you're thanked.

An entire chapter should be written on how the specialty was specifically designed so that you're trapped in it, with scarce exit plans. This was no accident, when EM was formed as a residency as opposed to a fellowship after IM, FM or peds. If it was a fellowship, then every EP would be able to easily move in and out of EM, based on working conditions, whereas residency is a one-way street without room to turn around or exit laterally).

But...but...but...NONE of that really matters even a bit, in comparison to the fact that chronic circadian rhythm dysphoria, and working nights, weekends and holidays takes such a big toll on a person's personal and family life, it's just not worth it when there are so many other choices less onerous. EVERYTHING pales in comparison to that fact that EM takes away one's ability to have a normal life. The impact of losing that, cannot be overstated.
 
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The job sucks by itself. It sucks, on top of that, because outlook is even worse than current conditions.

There is no group or leaders coming to the rescue or improve things, anything. We are left on our own to deal with deteriorating conditions.

We know what proper tools are needed to practice safe and appropriate medicine. We don't have it and likely are not getting it.
 
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Don't do EM or medicine. Every single field in medicine complains. In fact, don't do anything higher ed related. Tech complains about lack of job security and layoffs and high COL. Law complains about poor pay and lack of promotion to partner in most firms. Finance complains about long hours. Just become a youtuber or something.

If I could go back and do it over I would go for Ortho

Other fields: anesthesia, Derm, optho, GI, IR, Radiology, Pain, Interventional Cards, ENT

EM docs were sold a bag of goods and sent down the river to go over Niagara Falls while CMGs and Hospital admins excited with the $$$ taken from the hard work and sacrifice of EM docs

ACEP did nothing to help. AAEM tried but too little too late.

Sad
 
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I can't believe E-ROAD was a thing a few years back
 
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Not to toot my own horn but this is a previous post of mine. Combine it with @Birdstrike post above.

Also it should be telling that many old posters and new posters that aren’t typically active here posting about this and saying they’re not surprised etc

I also didn’t touch the future job market in my post which is the main driving factor. People are forgetting the market report was aimed at 2030 for saturation. They’re justifying everything being fine by stating there’s plenty of jobs right now, which makes no sense. Also people are saying they used Covid numbers for the report which is just factually straight up incorrect and was pre Covid. Furthermore, people are saying the attrition rate was too low and it’s higher now. Really? Going to justify everything being fine because people are leaving the profession at a record rate? Maybe people should think twice about that statement.

Also, it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out the numbers. Less than ten years ago we had 1500ish spots, now we’re at almost 3100. This is the core issue. There’s around 45-48k current EM docs. In 7 years hitting 2030, there will be another 21k. Essentially adding almost half of of our workforce in 7 years to the current workforce that has been cooking for 30-40 years. You’d have to be literally brain dead to think things will be fine. Even accounting for attrition and (the extremely negligible amount) going into fellowship.

Literally everything. You don't experience EM as a med student.

I did five aways and residency was still nothing like being a med student.

When you have your cute clipboard and pen, meticulously seeing a patient I had already seen 3 more plus argued with a hospitalist and a consultant.

Med students rarely have to talk to hospitalists/consults. If you do, it's the "nice one" or it's an easy admit. And they just have some sweet summer child pitty on you if you do end up talking to them. Gloves are off as a resident and attending. You don't experience the daily pushback and lazy ass consultants and being the middle man between them.

When I send you off to do the lac, I have a moment of fleeting appreciation but then remember that without fail a horrible lac will completely brick me later outside mid-level hours. it immediately becomes your most hated procedure.

When I give you that intubation or central line that will be a highlight of why you love EM but even at high acuity places it's still uncommon. Especially with mostplaces just doing peripheral pressors or letting the CCM "provider" do it upstairs. Plus bipap hfnc continues to save the day. These are some of your highlights of fourth year. As a resident/attending you won't even remember them once you get home because of everything else slowly destroying your soul.

Interesting? Puzzles? When you're going through your med student ddx thinking of unicorns and zebras after your thorough presentation, I knew what 3-8 click boxes for this patient I was already going to click based off the CC and triage note. Listening to the patient is a formality. If anything it almost always decreases what I was going to order. Sure you eventually get some things that might be truly interesting, but that's not a good thing. All it means is multiple phone calls to people who don't want to work and likely transfer depending on where you're at and you'll like run into "we're at capacity" road blocks. Consultants don't want interesting so everyone is going to try as hard as possible to block a consult. "Send to X quaternary care center" that's probably full. Interesting doesn't pay. Why waste time with intellectual thought as a consultant when routine procedures/consults pay the same or more. etc etc.

Sure you can work up interesting things or look for zebras but after your LPs with pressures and full CNS MRI w/wo, your atypical lab test that's a send out anyway (and you'll lose the MRN and forget to follow up anyway), whatever you're wasting time on (that 99% chance will be normal), your bosses will wonder why you're the slowest doc with the worst metrics.

Literally a book could be written on why it's an extremely poor choice. Haven't even touched on all of it. The metrics. The drug addicts. The demanding googlers. The dozens of daily old people with nothing wrong except weakness, realistically familial abandonment and depression. Admins. CMGs. Hospitalists. Consultants. Being the punching bag for everyone outside the ED. Being the "dumbest doc in the hospital". All we do is "CT everything". "Hey could you get a CT of xyz before coming upstairs". Lazy partners. Understaffing. Resource shortages. Phone calls. Scheduling. Charting. Charting. Charting. Charting. AMAs (just kidding, ama is the best thing to ever happen on shift). etc etc etc


It all comes down to what I'll call "THE DREAD". You'll have your own. I bet many are similar to me. You can't experience this as a med student. The dread is what it sounds like. There's almost ALWAYS something on your board that you're dreading. For me it's a patient currently undergoing workup that I know the whole time is going to be a very difficult disposition. The dread sits there chipping away at your soul all shift. As soon as you finally resolve the dread. There's another one. Then another. Then maybe you go home on time. Probably not though. Then on your next shift there's the dread. Staring at you all shift. Whatever it is for you, it'll be there.
 
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The best people in the the worst system.

That's Emergency Medicine.
 
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The best people in the the worst system.

That's Emergency Medicine.

That is (sadly) the most accurate sentence that perfectly sums up Emergency Medicine.

It should be on the first page of Tintinalli’s
 
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During my 3rd year of residency I watched an ED doc treat a patient with priapism. When he got the supplies out he didn't shut/relock the supply cabinet in the room. He drained some blood from a vein, placed the cup of blood in the sink, and then we left the room to do something else. A few minutes later we watched the patient leave the room in a hurry. He shouted "it worked doc" as he ran out the exit after another patient. It seemed very strange.

We went back into the room and the patient had taken his cup of dick blood out of the sink and thrown it all over the supply cabinet, equipment, wall, etc. Yeah, we should have locked the cabinet. Yeah, we should have given the cup to a nurse. But god damn.

I remember thinking "so this is emergency medicine".

Sorry for cross-posting.
 
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The grass isn't greener y'all

Gas....midlevels, call, nights, holidays

GI....screening scopes being phased out, midlevels learning this skill

Hospitalist....lol

Gen Surg...lol

Rads....ok maybe rads

Derm...PE

CCM...midlevels, nights, burnout

Ophtho...rapidly declining reimbursement

Ortho...ok maybe ortho (still a 6 year TOUGH path

Psych...ok maybe psych...BUT, I see so many similarities between how hot psych is now and how EM was 10 yrs ago. Lots of this new psych demand is pandemic related mental health decline. NP machine PUMPIN. What happens in 10 yrs?
 
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Yeah Grass definitely not greener. Atleast with EM, you have 3 yrs of residency then make 400K. Almost every field will be affected by reducing insurance reimbursement, VC/APC encroachment. Psych? Takes a special person plus I saw a thread where the starting salary was mostly under 300K. Sure the hours are great but geez, I didn't go into medicine wanting to solves everyone's psych issues. Plus, watch how residencies will proliferate with high NP encroachment.

If I were a psych doc, I would open up a large office, hire 4 NPs to see pts, undercut every Psych doc by 50% and still pull in 1M. Doc across the street charge $500 for a 1hr visit? I will charge $250 and collect the extra $150x4 off the Nps work. Trust me, there are alot of docs and VC alreadly thinking about this.
 
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I know someone fresh out of psych residency billing 800 for an intake and 600 / hr after that...CASH.
 
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Yeah Grass definitely not greener. Atleast with EM, you have 3 yrs of residency then make 400K. Almost every field will be affected by reducing insurance reimbursement, VC/APC encroachment. Psych? Takes a special person plus I saw a thread where the starting salary was mostly under 300K. Sure the hours are great but geez, I didn't go into medicine wanting to solves everyone's psych issues. Plus, watch how residencies will proliferate with high NP encroachment.

If I were a psych doc, I would open up a large office, hire 4 NPs to see pts, undercut every Psych doc by 50% and still pull in 1M. Doc across the street charge $500 for a 1hr visit? I will charge $250 and collect the extra $150x4 off the Nps work. Trust me, there are alot of docs and VC alreadly thinking about this.

True but you can't corner the market like they can. There is psychotherapy and they can lower prices. EM CMGs corner the market. However you can make more starting out easier than in EM and you can just work partime for 300k and not work half the weekends
 
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I know someone making 1/2 to 2/3 what I do in EM while operating on children's eyeballs.

I'll take EM.
 
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Yeah Grass definitely not greener. Atleast with EM, you have 3 yrs of residency then make 400K. Almost every field will be affected by reducing insurance reimbursement, VC/APC encroachment. Psych? Takes a special person plus I saw a thread where the starting salary was mostly under 300K. Sure the hours are great but geez, I didn't go into medicine wanting to solves everyone's psych issues. Plus, watch how residencies will proliferate with high NP encroachment.

If I were a psych doc, I would open up a large office, hire 4 NPs to see pts, undercut every Psych doc by 50% and still pull in 1M. Doc across the street charge $500 for a 1hr visit? I will charge $250 and collect the extra $150x4 off the Nps work. Trust me, there are alot of docs and VC alreadly thinking about this.

In 5 years Psych employed salaries will be closer to 200k imo. The model is 1 psych doc and 5 mid levels in my state being pushed most places. Its the cheapest for the employers to do that. 5-10 years all states will have indep practice for NP/PA except maybe TX will take longer. Insurances will shift to paying NPs less or hiring them in drones to be staffed by either the insurance company and doing there own version of some tele psych gig where the patients pay minimum along with amazon/walmart/cvs all getting into hiring NP armies. Of course they will get legislation passed to have them independent with full autonomy when the big players are involved to maximize profit. This will then slowly eat away the outpatient psych docs who take insurance.

The only safe fields are surgical until NPs get into that eventually. Non procedural surgical specialties are all going to take a massive cut in the Next 5-10 years. This is completely deserved by allowing the idea of NP's to exist and not squashing it in the beginning.

Electric cars will replace ICE in the next 10 year all based on $. Whatever is cheaper ultimately wins out in the end. NPs and mid levels not only are cheaper but can be churned out exponentially faster. They will replace the vast majority of non surgical docs. This is a fact when anyone out there can fast track online into the field. Medicine has become an absolute joke are all non surgical specialties are doomed.

Anyone considering medicine should be going surgical. I hope i am wrong.
 
In 5 years Psych employed salaries will be closer to 200k imo. The model is 1 psych doc and 5 mid levels in my state being pushed most places. Its the cheapest for the employers to do that. 5-10 years all states will have indep practice for NP/PA except maybe TX will take longer. Insurances will shift to paying NPs less or hiring them in drones to be staffed by either the insurance company and doing there own version of some tele psych gig where the patients pay minimum along with amazon/walmart/cvs all getting into hiring NP armies. Of course they will get legislation passed to have them independent with full autonomy when the big players are involved to maximize profit. This will then slowly eat away the outpatient psych docs who take insurance.

The only safe fields are surgical until NPs get into that eventually. Non procedural surgical specialties are all going to take a massive cut in the Next 5-10 years. This is completely deserved by allowing the idea of NP's to exist and not squashing it in the beginning.

Electric cars will replace ICE in the next 10 year all based on $. Whatever is cheaper ultimately wins out in the end. NPs and mid levels not only are cheaper but can be churned out exponentially faster. They will replace the vast majority of non surgical docs. This is a fact when anyone out there can fast track online into the field. Medicine has become an absolute joke are all non surgical specialties are doomed.

Anyone considering medicine should be going surgical. I hope i am wrong.
Insurances have already shifted the majority of the outpatient cost burden onto the consumer. Most people don't hit their deductible on a yearly basis, so they are paying for outpatient care out of pocket.
In fact, if you look up the prices, it's actually cheaper in most cases to be "cash pay" instead of using insurance, since most hospitals give a discount to cash payers.

What this means is that insurances don't care at all what the cost is for a NP. They're rarely the ones to pay for it. Even when they do, it's peanuts compared to what they pay for anything inpatient. I suspect health systems will continue to charge the same for a midlevel who is "supervised" by a physician, and the consumer will end up getting the same bill. And ultimately this is protective for physicians as midlevels are not competing on price - the only edge they have. Health systems are the ones who are pushing midlevels, because they are the main beneficiaries of this arbitrage, but as we said before, doctors that can hang a shingle can always compete.
And if we are talking about insurers delivering their own care, then well... that's a whole different ballgame. We are getting into Kaiser territory of complete vertical integration. And guess what? Kaiser actually has the LEAST number of midlevels, as they realize that midlevels are ultimately more expensive and less cost efficient for the system as a whole when the corporation is responsible for both the money coming in and the money going out.

Also, I'm not sold about amazon/walmart/cvs getting into all specialties. Limited success in urgent care? Sure, maybe. But the success of these mega corporations into providing large scale healthcare is yet to be seen. I'm doubtful - it's simply not their core business proficiency.
 
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Insurances have already shifted the majority of the outpatient cost burden onto the consumer. Most people don't hit their deductible on a yearly basis, so they are paying for outpatient care out of pocket.
In fact, if you look up the prices, it's actually cheaper in most cases to be "cash pay" instead of using insurance, since most hospitals give a discount to cash payers.

What this means is that insurances don't care at all what the cost is for a NP. They're rarely the ones to pay for it. Even when they do, it's peanuts compared to what they pay for anything inpatient. I suspect health systems will continue to charge the same for a midlevel who is "supervised" by a physician, and the consumer will end up getting the same bill. And ultimately this is protective for physicians as midlevels are not competing on price - the only edge they have. Health systems are the ones who are pushing midlevels, because they are the main beneficiaries of this arbitrage, but as we said before, doctors that can hang a shingle can always compete.
And if we are talking about insurers delivering their own care, then well... that's a whole different ballgame. We are getting into Kaiser territory of complete vertical integration. And guess what? Kaiser actually has the LEAST number of midlevels, as they realize that midlevels are ultimately more expensive and less cost efficient for the system as a whole when the corporation is responsible for both the money coming in and the money going out.

Also, I'm not sold about amazon/walmart/cvs getting into all specialties. Limited success in urgent care? Sure, maybe. But the success of these mega corporations into providing large scale healthcare is yet to be seen. I'm doubtful - it's simply not their core business proficiency.

I don't know. Alexa "refill my xyz medication"... connecting you to a "provider" what time will work for you now, 15min, custom etc" is where this is all heading. It's in par with everything else in society.

We like in an incredibly lazy society where everything has become ease and convenience or there's an app for that. People won't even go down the street to pick up their take out food forget the idea of cooking in general.

Working harder now than ever to have a 5 year exit plan and hoping it can at least get to 2030. I have a grim outlook in what I see coming since even 7 years ago no one acknowledged the mid level threat and now it is truly out of control and it is inevitable it will take over just a question of when. It hurts me to see this happen to this field. All i can do is prepare now for what's inevitable and hope to be FI before it hurts me financially.
 
I don't know. Alexa "refill my xyz medication"... connecting you to a "provider" what time will work for you now, 15min, custom etc" is where this is all heading. It's in par with everything else in society.

We like in an incredibly lazy society where everything has become ease and convenience or there's an app for that. People won't even go down the street to pick up their take out food forget the idea of cooking in general.

Working harder now than ever to have a 5 year exit plan and hoping it can at least get to 2030. I have a grim outlook in what I see coming since even 7 years ago no one acknowledged the mid level threat and now it is truly out of control and it is inevitable it will take over just a question of when. It hurts me to see this happen to this field. All i can do is prepare now for what's inevitable and hope to be FI before it hurts me financially.
I totally agree with the 5 year exit plan. I have one personally. But I also think things won’t be as rosy for mega corporations as we think. These huge corporate structures simply are too inefficient by its very nature and when there isn’t ever increasing resources to feed them they’ll collapse.
 
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I dunno why people think surgical fields are safe from NPs.

They taught nurses how to tube and line, you don't think some simp will teach them how to remove an appendix / gallbladder, or do a hip replacement?
 
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I agree with psych, but I don't think this will happen in EM. I work with some very strong NP/PAs and there is no way they could handle critical patients or do any procedures other than lac repairs/I&Ds. We pay our NP/PAs less than half of what the physicians are paid and they do not get profit distributions. They take care of the lower acuity patients in the fast track area and overall decrease the physician patient per hour substantially while saving our group money, since a fast track physician would cost 2-3x more and take a cut of the overall profits, therefore decreasing my pay. I'd say fields like psych/neuro/PMR or even dermatology are at higher risk. I'm not a dermatologist, but I don't understand why PAs/NPs are not more rampant in that field. From reading up on scope of practice, it seems like a lot of derm clinics allow them to do pretty much everything other than Mohs.

Sadly, this issue is not the main issue effecting your field just one of several.
 
I dunno why people think surgical fields are safe from NPs.

They taught nurses how to tube and line, you don't think some simp will teach them how to remove an appendix / gallbladder, or do a hip replacement?
No. Look at pain. With the rare rare exception of 1-2 online examples, there are essentially no midlevels doing spine injections.
 
I dunno why people think surgical fields are safe from NPs.

They taught nurses how to tube and line, you don't think some simp will teach them how to remove an appendix / gallbladder, or do a hip replacement?
I believe they are doing GI scopes and stents now at academia places. Yes, it will happen to surgery too. Just longer timeline at least 10 years away. Once society gets used to NPs everywhere heck all my patients have exclusively Nps as their GP and most don't even know Pandora's box is already open.
 
What % of central lines were done by NPs 20 yrs ago
Then why aren't tons of spine injections being done by NPs already? Pain procedures are ripe for the picking, yet it's almost nonexistent.
You would think that just by pure market forces, SOMEONE would have already taught a bunch of NPs to do injections and demolished the field by now.
The fact that there isn't means there are likely potent forces at play resisting such a phenomenon. Is it possible that midlevels will be doing most injections in 20 years just like central lines? Sure, but it's not a foregone conclusion.
 
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I dunno why people think surgical fields are safe from NPs.

They taught nurses how to tube and line, you don't think some simp will teach them how to remove an appendix / gallbladder, or do a hip replacement?
The surgeon isn't there for straightforward appys or gall bags. They're there for a retrocecal appy or a carcinoid tumor, or a necrotic GB. What does the NP do with that? Call an emergency intraop consult for surgical rescue? It's not a problem until it is, and that "is" is immediate.
 
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The surgeon isn't there for straightforward appys or gall bags. They're there for a retrocecal appy or a carcinoid tumor, or a necrotic GB. What does the NP do with that? Call an emergency intraop consult for surgical rescue? It's not a problem until it is, and that "is" is immediate.
yeah, those specialties have a much higher barrier to entry, even for PLPs
 
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The surgeon isn't there for straightforward appys or gall bags. They're there for a retrocecal appy or a carcinoid tumor, or a necrotic GB. What does the NP do with that? Call an emergency intraop consult for surgical rescue? It's not a problem until it is, and that "is" is immediate.

I mean this is the same for other procedures too. Everyone thinks they can intubate until they can’t. Saw this all the time at my previous hospital that let RTs and PLPs kill people on the floor. I had to save them multiple times. Walk into a room with blood everywhere from oral trauma or massive aspiration or patients arresting because they can’t get it. Same for PLPs doing CVLs dropping lungs. Even had one cannulate the carotid.

Admins don’t get a ****. If it’s cheaper and gets them more money that’s what they’ll do. PLPs already do a ton of procedures. Won’t be long for them to start infecting surgeries. Who cares if there’s higher morbidity and mortality from PLPs doing things. There’s some doc carrying the bag anyway.
 
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Saw this all the time at my previous hospital that let RTs and PLPs kill people on the floor. I had to save them multiple times. Walk into a room with blood everywhere from oral trauma or massive aspiration or patients arresting because they can’t get it.
I've never worked at a place where RTs were credentialed to intubate. The idea is wild to me, even more so than midlevels intubating. Like, it's not as simple as "pull up on scope, tube go in hole, inflate cuff." I kinda doubt they have the training to know what to do with severe metabolic acidosis, hypotensive patients just waiting to bottom out once put on positive pressure, etc. Meanwhile I've got midlevel "hospitalists" question me using an LMA instead of intubating their floor patient actively getting chest compressions.
 
The surgeon isn't there for straightforward appys or gall bags. They're there for a retrocecal appy or a carcinoid tumor, or a necrotic GB. What does the NP do with that? Call an emergency intraop consult for surgical rescue? It's not a problem until it is, and that "is" is immediate.

As if this matters to admin or United Healthcare.
 
As if this matters to admin or United Healthcare.
Of course it matters to admin. A couple youngsters die or are maimed and all of a sudden their hospital is all over local or even national news with crying mothers asking why the hospital let a NP operate on their child. Next thing you know the competing health system will buy billboards on the busiest interstate during rush hour advertising that only their group of board certified surgeons are allowed to touch you and your family.
 
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You must have missed the one about the NP misdiagnosing pediatric sepsis and sending the child home to die.

Admin got rid of all the NPs in EDs everywhere after that...oh, wait....
 
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Medicine like any business is all about money. People are finally realizing its not all altruistic including hospitals/doctors.

NPs may very well never do complicated surgical/medical procedures, but what they will do is decrease the demand for surgeons. What is happening already is surgeons hiring NPs instead of another doctor. I know of surgical specialties across the board who will hire NPs do see clinic pts, chart, round, take call, etc where before they needed to hire another surgeon due to increased volume.

What is happening in EM has been played out before in other specialties. Most will bounce back with a new steady state medium that Old docs will complain about and new docs will be happy with. Even GI docs I knew 20 yrs ago was printing money, but that is not the case anymore.

So Grass is not greener unless no matter the specialty b/c if there is money to be made, there will be increased competition. So everyone needs an exit plan no matter the specialty or even job. I mean, not many wants to work full time when they are past 50?
 
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Medicine like any business is all about money.
Side note.

Healthcare is a business. Medicine is a science. Healing is an art.

Perhaps that is a distinction any more though without a difference as capitalism has become all-consuming in our system.

Once physician autonomy is squashed past the burn out level, then money becomes the main driving force even for physicians with altruism taking a back seat.
 
Side note.

Healthcare is a business. Medicine is a science. Healing is an art.

Perhaps that is a distinction any more though without a difference as capitalism has become all-consuming in our system.

Once physician autonomy is squashed past the burn out level, then money becomes the main driving force even for physicians with altruism taking a back seat.

Without money, there is no business. Business drives what you can do in medicine. Physician autonomy had decreased drastically in the past 20 yrs and there is no reversing this. Eventually we will have some form of single payer system or hybrid where most will be under a gov single payer which is inevitable. Once this happens, autonomy and innovation will be no more.
 
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