What's your opinion on MD/Phd programs- Advice on MD/ Phd programs

Kat2122

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I love science- almost every part of it. I am leaning more towards an MD/Phd program to become a physician scientist, because I feel that I would enjoy the career greatly, as it combines research and medicine, both of which I adore. Are there any skills that you associate with a good physician scientist? It is difficult to know if you are interested in a career just from research- meaning without experience (which is not readily available to me), I am lost. Also-- further considering the physician scientist path, what could increase my chances of being accepted into a program such as the MSTP?

Ok, last question- As of all my research to date, the Phd degree that I favor is neuroscience (with residency in neuroscience). Which other degrees would you recommend? (Does the Phd topic need to match the MD residency that I choose?)

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I agree, it is virtually impossible to know with certainty that a particular career path is right for you without seeing it firsthand. So if you think medicine is interesting, I recommend asking your physician if you could shadow her/him for a day. I began shadowing my pediatrician in high school and it helped me better understand what doctors do and if I am suited for that type of work.

Unfortunately, as a high schooler, there is little you can do to prepare for an MD/PhD (or any other career) other than working hard in class, exposing yourself to different careers through shadowing, and developing you interests inside and outside the classroom. Once you are in college, then you can start to worry about pursuing a specific career.

In the meantime, here is a list of a few neuroscience-related careers to think about (not my list, adapted from a textbook):
Some of these careers require PhDs, others Masters, and some MDs. Look into them all!
  1. Computational neuroscientist (someone who used math and computer science to construct models of brain function)
  2. Psychiatrist (someone who diagnosis and treats mood and personality disorders)
  3. Developmental neurobiologist (someone who analyzes the development of the brain)
  4. Neuropathologist (someone who is specially trained to recognize changes in nervous tissue that results from disease in patients)
  5. Molecular neurobiologist (someone who studies the structure of neurons to better understand how they are related to the function of brain molecules)
  6. Neuroanatomist (someone who studies the structure of the nervous system)
  7. Neurologist (someone who diagnosis and treats diseases of the nervous system)
  8. Neurochemist (someone who studies the chemistry of the nervous system)
  9. Neuroethologist (someone who studies the neurological basis of animal and human behavior)
  10. Neuropharmacologist (someone who studies the effects of drugs, ie medication, on the brain)
  11. Neurosurgeon (someone who performs surgery on the brain and spinal cord)
  12. Neurophysiologist (studies the electrical activity of nervous systems)
  13. Physiological psychologist (studies the biological basis of behavior)
Focus on exposing yourself to as many of these (and other) fields as you can.

With regard to your questions about residencies: Remember, even if you went straight through to college and med school, you still wouldn't even be thinking about residencies for another 10 years! That is a really long time. 10 years ago you were 4/5 years old! Just think about how much will change by the time you are 24/25!!
 
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If you are considering the MD/PhD path, the first thing to do is get very, very familiar with research. When most high school students picture scientific research, they imagine running straightforward experiments (like in biology class) and collecting data. While these are definitely part of the picture, there are far more nuanced aspects of research that students won't be able to appreciate until they have (several years) of firsthand experience. For example, writing is a bigger part of research than most people realize, and most principal investigators spend the bulk of their time either reading, writing, or reviewing papers and grant applications. Another thing that can be difficult to appreciate is that scientific research involves a lot of troubleshooting, simply because you will be running experiments that have never been successfully run before. Personally, I spent an entire year of 8-10 hour days trying to make a single chemical during my PhD. I don't regret it, but you have to be aware that things like that can and will happen to anyone going into a PhD program.

So...how do you get exposure to research? The easiest thing to do is to send emails to researchers working nearby and see if anyone is willing to take you on either as a volunteer or as a lab technician. Many people won't accept high school students, but you don't have much to lose by trying. Worst case scenario, you try again after entering college. Once you find a lab, stick around for awhile and try to work up to an independent project so that you will be responsible for troubleshooting, writing, and presenting your data - those things make up the bulk of actual research.

After all of that, if you find that you like research you can start thinking about MD/PhD programs. You should have several years of research experience before you apply (my rule of thumb is 4 years of part-time, or 2 years of full-time research). You should also do some clinical shadowing and volunteer work to be sure that the MD is a good fit for you. MD/PhD programs can be very competitive, so GPA and MCAT are very important as well. There is a good sticky regarding specific stats on the Physician Scientist sub-forum.

Once you get through all of that, you can think about medical and research specialties. Ideally, they should complement each other but you still have a long way to go before you start worrying about specifics.
 
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I just want to offer some insight into the difficulties of juggling two very different professions simultaneously. Below is the (slightly embellished) experience of a very knowledgeable, recent MD/PhD graduate. After learning about programs and talking to many MD/PhD faculty, I ultimately decided against enrolling in the MSTP track, though I continue to participate in research.

This reminds me of my own life and the lives of MD/PhDs I see in Radiology.

On the PhD side you get to hear--You're not a real PhD. You're a medical student. Why are you wasting your time? You'll just be doing clinical research or private practice anyways. You need 100% of your time to do real research. Who would want a doctor who only spends some of their time in the clinics? Then why the heck do a MD/PhD other than to get a job? What a waste of time.

BTW, be very careful not to make us feel like you are in any way saying that MDs will make more money or have better job prospects than PhDs. You'd have to be crazy to turn down all the ridiculous MD money we perceive you to make someday regardless what you end up doing, and we're all nervous about getting funding/a job in our own lives so don't mention anything about future job prospects on either side. If we think you are saying in any way that MDs are better than PhDs, we will crucify you.

On the MD side you get to hear--You make life difficult for everyone else because you don't pull your weight as a clinician. In fact, you aren't even a real clinician. We spend 100% of our times being clinicians, so 20% of your time won't cut it. Maybe we'll give you a little time for research. We won't give you startup funding or resources. In fact, we'll eat into all that protected time we promised you. Don't complain about it, because you're messing up everyone's schedules. You researchers are such blood suckers, eating into our department bonus to try to get resources to do your experiments to try to bring in that shrinking grant money. Then, when you aren't successful doing research (we never expected you to be), you can generate lots of revenue like you should have been to begin with.

BTW, if we think you are saying in any way that PhDs are better than MDs, we will crucify you.

I guess the only way to please everyone is to train at 110% as a medical student and train 110% as a researcher and by the time you're done putting in your 220% through medical school, PhD, and residency, if you're not burned out you can have no hair, a divorce, and some kids you never see. Or you can just take it easy, but then you'll never get your MD/PhD and everyone's going to hate you because you're good at nothing. Then when it's time to find a job you can put in 200% of full-time so you can do both!

I just to know wanted you to know what you're getting into there op ;) I'm convinced at this point it's fine to get both degrees but it seems to me like you should never tell anyone you have or are working on both except your boss. I'm not nearly this cynical however. You do have to expect that everyone's egos are high and people are going to pee on you along the way--i.e. Obdeli's post which had nothing to do with your question and instead tried to discourage you. Why even say "Don't do it, just to get in" if you're not assuming it of the op? What sillyness IMO. He never said he was. Of all the things to bring up out of the blue...

Of course it's not always like this of course and you have to have some faith that what you're doing is worthwhile, you just can't please everyone all the time.

Fortunately, when it comes to residency you pretty much never hear of MD/PhDs not matching. I've seen the AOA, high board scores, many publications who didn't do anything related to imaging match at top places and then I've seen an MD/PhD who was low in his class with low board scores and no first author pubs in his PhD match okay. The programs that don't want us have nothing to offer us. The academic programs that do pick MD/PhDs are the places we want to be at. Unfortunately, some stress is caused because they're the same places that everyone else seems to want to be at, but the 3 MD/PhDs who matched from my program this year seem to think you'll be just fine.
 
Yeesh that was almost 8 years ago. I still agree with myself except the last bit. I have seen several MD/PhDs not match since then.

Are there any skills that you associate with a good physician scientist?

Masochism.

It is difficult to know if you are interested in a career just from research- meaning without experience (which is not readily available to me), I am lost. Also-- further considering the physician scientist path, what could increase my chances of being accepted into a program such as the MSTP?

Go to a university that has biomedical research opportunities for you. It doesn't have to be Ivy League or some other big name place. Start on a pre-med track with a science major. Get as close to a 4.0 GPA as possible (MOST IMPORTANT THING) and knock on a lot of doors to find a lab that will take you on board as a volunteer. Spend most (or all) of your summers doing research and try to keep your research up during the year as well without compromising your GPA. Try to find a volunteer/shadowing position at a nearby hospital or similar and spend a few hours a week doing that.

Ok, last question- As of all my research to date, the Phd degree that I favor is neuroscience (with residency in neuroscience). Which other degrees would you recommend? (Does the Phd topic need to match the MD residency that I choose?)

Your PhD should ideally match your residency, but it's too early to worry about this. When you get into an MD/PhD program, then worry about what you're going to do your PhD in, and when you're a medical student you can figure out what kind of doc you want to be. It's fine to think about it now, but don't make any decisions on it.
 
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I can appreciate long distance goals, but get to college and figure out whether you can handle the science, labs, and scientific writing first. It's not like you land in a lab and publications and advanced degrees fall in you lap...
 
I can appreciate long distance goals, but get to college and figure out whether you can handle the science, labs, and scientific writing first. It's not like you land in a lab and publications and advanced degrees fall in you lap...

Agree.

Md/phd is only useful for someone going to do basic science and minimal clinical work. clinical research can be done without a phd. This will save you 3-7 years.
 
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You're thinking about this too far in advance. For what it's worth (secondhand anecdotal experience), I've spoken with a fair number of MD/PhD students (about 15-20). Only one said she would go through it again. The others either wish they had done just the MD (with research on the side) or are lukewarm/non-committal and unsure if they really would go through it again. The question itself seems to put many MD/PhD students in a bad mood. I'm not privy to the inner workings of the degree, but I've noticed an alarmingly high amount of dissatisfaction coming from the students.
 
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