When is it appropriate to start asking about things that really matter in the job application process (workload, time allotted for encounters, compensation, benefits, etc) - I'm beginning to talk with various outpatient organizations/practices and have a few initial interviews set up, but don't want to jump the gun. At the same time, not sure if there will be additional opportunities to discuss these specifics so want to make sure I get all the details I need to make an educated decision. Thoughts?
When to ask the big questions?
- Thread starter rjs2131
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I ask during the initial phone call. If the person isn't sure, he or she can e-mail me afterwards and provide the details. I use the phone call as a way to screen and there are a lot of crappy places to screen out. I don't see why I should spend 2 - 3 days on the road just to get answers about something I can get over the phone. If I like what I hear on the phone, then I'll do the on-site visit.
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Ask the recruiters prior to the initial call. If no recruiters, during the initial call.
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Initial call for content of the work (volume, time for intake v FU, call and clerical support). It’s a buyers market and I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time and any mandatory call (phone or in person don’t care how slow) was a no go for me. $ and benefits I waited on to make sure it was otherwise a good fit.
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Folks are over thinking this. Time is precious. Good places communicate Good (well). Bad place communicate Bad (poorly). Get the information you want/can before you waste your time traveling somewhere to meet for a face to face interview. This is your job, your day to day activity and living. You should be able to get good answers for the questions you seek, and if the internal hospital/group recruiter doesn't know, ask them if they know who would and if you'd be able to talk to them. If they are wishy washy, consider it the first red flag for a place that is looking for a push-over-peon who will do what they're told and accept everything they shovel upon you. You are your only advocate (until you hire the lawyer to review the contract - which you will).
Things like actual salary and benefits packages may or may not be provided on the front end.
Things like actual salary and benefits packages may or may not be provided on the front end.
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I think its not only appropriately but essential to be asking about details on workflow, workload, and clinical expectations on the first call. If you aren't interested in this off the bat I think it's a red flag to a decent organization or at best you get a note about being a doormat or desperate for work.
I think talking salary ballpark is reasonable on the first call but if you like what you know about the organization and what the job entails is okay to discuss on a second call, particularly with interviews all being online during COVID. I would not fly somewhere without this information, but I do also think it comes across better if your questions are focused on the clinical work and your fit, rather than the salary. I have had multiple places ask me about salary expectations and I have no problem being straightforward around that, every place I've told "around 3" to have all continued talks with me.
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I would ask on the initial call. It's not worth anyone's time to continue conversations (via email or phone calls) on jobs you would never seriously consider. Be up front with what you want. People are desperate to hire psychiatrists, even in markets that you think are saturated. When I was looking for jobs last year (in a "desirable" market people told me was saturated) , I was very clear to the two recruiters on what schedule I wanted, what pay I would accept, and what wRVU structure I wanted. After initial interview, make sure you talk to someone who actually works there who can tell you what it's really like working there. Ask what they like, ask what they hate, etc. Decide if the compromises they make are compromises you would feel comfortable making.
Thanks for the responses all - would your approach change when talking with a private practice? Interested to hear if anyone has had discussions with practices that are headed by/founded by psychiatrists who are from your home institution. It seems like there is a greater deal of finesse needed in these situations as it'd be ideal to maintain a good long-term relationship (but also don't want to feel you're compromising your worth). I could see this feeling like an extension of academia as well if you both trained at the same place.
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Do you include all the work flow stuff in your contract (volume, time for intake v FU, call and clerical support etc)?
Wanted to come back to this thread as many soon-to-be grads are likely currently in or preparing for contract negotiations for their first attending jobs.
Do those who have been through this process have insights into what works/what doesn't? It'd be great to hear examples from people who have successfully negotiated (and those who haven't) and what this looked like. Currently listening to Never Split the Difference but not sure how well this translates to real life.
Do those who have been through this process have insights into what works/what doesn't? It'd be great to hear examples from people who have successfully negotiated (and those who haven't) and what this looked like. Currently listening to Never Split the Difference but not sure how well this translates to real life.
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If you're looking at wRVU bonus type inpatient jobs: if there's a cap (max salary they will pay you per year including bonus), try to fight for the highest cap you can. Even if it seems like you'll never make it to that cap...taking an extra call here or there hurts less when you know you'll be compensated for it. Taking an extra call when you've already hit your cap for the year stings a little because you're essentially working for free (you're not, but you are, kinda).
Also recommend making an wRVU estimator on Excel and estimating how many wRVUs you will pull in per year, based on the number of patients you will be seeing. Gives you a better idea of what to ask for. And remember, 90792 comes in at a whopping 4.16 wRVU now!
Also recommend making an wRVU estimator on Excel and estimating how many wRVUs you will pull in per year, based on the number of patients you will be seeing. Gives you a better idea of what to ask for. And remember, 90792 comes in at a whopping 4.16 wRVU now!
