When will these guys learn to do a lethal injection?

Started by ZzzPlz
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Seems to me that executions went just peachy back in the Pentothal days. Why can't they still use that drug? Oh, that's right.

It's not a funny issue, but I do have to laugh a little at hand-wringers who gripe about "experimental" execution drugs and mistakes caused by new techniques, when it was those very same hand-wringers who directly caused Pentothal to be removed as an option.


For the record, I oppose the death penalty, but not because they're unpleasant experiences for the convicted. I actually favor a more unpleasant experience: life in a 6x10 concrete box.
 
ZzzPlz said:
This seriously bothers me.

Do it right or don't do it.

Z
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Awwwwww, does it offend your sensibilities? Did you shed a tear over this poor man's suffering? This piece of garbage shot someone and ordered his boys to bury her alive. He got what he deserved. If it were up to me, I'd give these f_ucks 100 mg of Zemuron and let them die.
 
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He was supposed to get 50mg midaz, 20 mg vec, and 100meq kcl administered through each IV, one in each arm. Even if one IV failed, the other would have been more than adequate. Looks like the monkeys pushing the drugs didn't realize that neither had a working IV and each pushed 150cc sq. Sq vec eventually got him.
 
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They don't know how to put ivs. I wonder who used to place them before. Was it an anesthesiologist? Is the ABA somewhat responsible for the botched executions by threatening to rescind board certification to people involved in executions?
 
urge said:
They don't know how to put ivs. I wonder who used to place them before. Was it an anesthesiologist? Is the ABA somewhat responsible for the botched executions by threatening to rescind board certification to people involved in executions?
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I'm sure it depends across locations, however here it is generally a guard who has been instructed in IV placement. Rarely a paramedic will do the stick.
 
Consigliere said:
Awwwwww, does it offend your sensibilities? Did you shed a tear over this poor man's suffering? This piece of garbage shot someone and ordered his boys to bury her alive. He got what he deserved. If it were up to me, I'd give these f_ucks 100 mg of Zemuron and let them die.
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I am pro capital punishment and this wasn't the point if my post. I just find it amazing that 1) they don't just give a massive dose that would put down an elephant and 2) they can't just establish decent access to deliver drugs.

I mean come on, compared to all the legal costs and whatnot they could just give a couple grams of fent and be done with it. The cost if drugs is just a drop in the bucket.

Let me be clear that I do believe this guy got what he deserved in the end. I'd have been happy to throw a 14 gauge IV in his dorsal vein, and I wouldn't have even cleaned the skin with an alcohol swab first 🙂
 
We're not allowed to be involved in lethal injections. You can lose your board certification as a result. Until this changes expect more of these stories.
 
The justice system in this country has proven itself to be fallible and discriminatory time and time again. How often do you hear about wrongful convictions being overturned?
If these people can't even get an IV straight, how can we trust that each and every person gets a truly fair day in court? If they can botch the execution process they can botch the process that led to the death penalty conviction in the first place.
Remember the hippocratic oath? How do some of you reconcile that with the pleasure you seem like you would get from pushing the execution drugs yourself? Scary...
 
Colba55o said:
The justice system in this country has proven itself to be fallible and discriminatory time and time again. How often do you hear about wrongful convictions being overturned?
If these people can't even get an IV straight, how can we trust that each and every person gets a truly fair day in court? If they can botch the execution process they can botch the process that led to the death penalty conviction in the first place.
Remember the hippocratic oath? How do some of you reconcile that with the pleasure you seem like you would get from pushing the execution drugs yourself? Scary...
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What a simpleton approach. If you begin by defining the "they"/"these people" you're referring to, that'll be a good start. I'm not arguing with you about the fallibilities of our system…they certainly exist, and always will.
 
I don't know why there's a public outcry. The guy's still dead, and he earned his death penalty. Would there be public outcry if the firing squad hit him in the stomach (missing the AA) or if the e-chair took 2 or 3 tries? No. This is just being used to leverage the end of the death penalty -- which is already on the downswing anyway.
 
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ZzzPlz said:
Do it right or don't do it.
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I think that is a good 1-line summary.

There are tons of ways this could be done with 100% efficiency. Why not an anesthesia machine set to 15% sevo (that should be enough... I think)? Or, if you want to save money, a helium hood. Neither of those even require venous access. (And they are relatively clean and painless...)
 
Spinach Dip said:
I think that is a good 1-line summary.

There are tons of ways this could be done with 100% efficiency. Why not an anesthesia machine set to 15% sevo (that should be enough... I think)? Or, if you want to save money, a helium hood. Neither of those even require venous access. (And they are relatively clean and painless...)
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A gas chamber full of xenon. 1 MAC is about 70%. The person will breath himself off to sleep, then have a hypoxic arrest and die. No veins to blow. No pharmaceutical company to get antsy about it. No patent. No need to get around EU export bans.

As a bonus, the condemned convict's final words will be really, really deep. (In tone, not necessarily content.) The death penalty is all about style and drama anyway.
 
I saw one recently in the news that was just Versed/Dilaudid combo, sounds like a pretty sweet way to go out especially for committing an undoubtedly horrific crime.
 
pgg said:
A gas chamber full of xenon. 1 MAC is about 70%. The person will breath himself off to sleep, then have a hypoxic arrest and die. No veins to blow. No pharmaceutical company to get antsy about it. No patent. No need to get around EU export bans.

As a bonus, the condemned convict's final words will be really, really deep. (In tone, not necessarily content.) The death penalty is all about style and drama anyway.
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This is a brilliant idea!
 
Anyone read what that guy did? I don't think the punishment was bad enough, personally. I have zero problem with this guy suffering as he took his last breaths. My only problem is that the victims' families did not get to see him pass:

"On the night of the killing, Lockett, one of his cousins and a friend entered Bobby Bornt's home in Perry, seeking repayment of a $20 debt. The three men bound Bornt and beat him with a shotgun while his 9-month-old son slept in the next room.


Nieman and a friend dropped by to invite Bornt to a party, and they were bound with duct tape. Nieman's friend was beaten and raped by two of the men before the victims were loaded into two pickup trucks and driven to a rural dirt road.


Lockett admitted in the confession that he originally intended to kill the three adults because he feared police would learn he had violated terms of his probation from a previous felony.


After Nieman said she would tell police, he forced her to kneel while Shawn Mathis, a co-defendant, took about 20 minutes to dig a shallow grave. Lockett shot the girl in the shoulder, pushed her into the grave and shot her again in the chest before ordering Mathis to bury her alive. "

He has never shown remorse and did not even apologize to the family on the day of the execution. It is rare these animals get to feel any of the pain and fear that lead them to have the state put a needle in their arm. This time was different and I could care less that the monster suffered.
 
As much as I am generally against the capital punishment (except when there are zero doubts that the defendant was guilty - such as in a video-rec0rding of the events), I find it highly hypocritical when people are so concerned about the "humanity" of the executions. From where I stand, choose your poison, noose, electrode, gas, bullet, or pancuronium, whatever is cheaper and easier. Too much politically-correct whining.
 
pgg said:
A gas chamber full of xenon. 1 MAC is about 70%. The person will breath himself off to sleep, then have a hypoxic arrest and die. No veins to blow. No pharmaceutical company to get antsy about it. No patent. No need to get around EU export bans.

As a bonus, the condemned convict's final words will be really, really deep. (In tone, not necessarily content.) The death penalty is all about style and drama anyway.
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fing hilarious
 
BuzzPhreed said:
Do you have any idea how expensive xenon is? The lethal injection done correctly is cheap and effective.
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Complaining about the cost of a roomful of xenon after a 10-15 year capital murder trial and appeal process is like an orthopod complaining about the cost of anesthesia after dropping a hip prosthetic on the floor.

I was only about 12% serious anyway. 🙂
 
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Spinach Dip said:
Nitrous oxide then. Lots cheaper.
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Jeez y'all, nothing exotic is necessary. CO2 is the best of all worlds - cheap, , fast, readily available, 100% effective, no IV necessary. It's used to euthanize animals everyday. Put them in the chamber, close it up, CO2 in, everything else vents out. They're unconscious from hypercarbic narcosis before oxygen starvation even registers.
 
jwk said:
Jeez y'all, nothing exotic is necessary. CO2 is the best of all worlds - cheap, , fast, readily available, 100% effective, no IV necessary. It's used to euthanize animals everyday. Put them in the chamber, close it up, CO2 in, everything else vents out. They're unconscious from hypercarbic narcosis before oxygen starvation even registers.
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Doesn't get much cheeper or humane than a guillotine, painless for the victim, 100% effective, organs not tainted or damaged by any chemical and it's resuable.

Sometimes you have to leave perfect alone.
 
NOsaintsfan said:
Doesn't get much cheeper or humane than a guillotine, painless for the victim, 100% effective, organs not tainted or damaged by any chemical and it's resuable.

Sometimes you have to leave perfect alone.
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Why the guillotine? Why not firing squad? Sure, lethal injection is fraught with beaureaucratic bull****. Who cares? As long as it works? Maybe it didn't work in this circumstance. It should have. They ****ed up. Maybe they should have had a backup plan. In any case, yeah..
 
neusu said:
Why the guillotine? Why not firing squad? Sure, lethal injection is fraught with beaureaucratic bullcrap. Who cares? As long as it works? Maybe it didn't work in this circumstance. It should have. They ****** up. Maybe they should have had a backup plan. In any case, yeah..
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Because other than the blood it makes most people happy. The guillotine is reusable (cheep), painless for the victim, doesn't introduce toxins to a body that can potentially be harvested for its organs, doesn't make someone feel guilty for pulling the trigger on a firing squad (you could link a guillotine to a computer program that will automatically drop the blade at X time), and as a bonus for all the sadistic types the blood might make them happy. Almost everyone wins.
 
jwk said:
Jeez y'all, nothing exotic is necessary. CO2 is the best of all worlds - cheap, , fast, readily available, 100% effective, no IV necessary. It's used to euthanize animals everyday. Put them in the chamber, close it up, CO2 in, everything else vents out. They're unconscious from hypercarbic narcosis before oxygen starvation even registers.
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Actually I bet CO2 would be an extraordinarily unpleasant way to go. Before losing consciousness from hypoxia I would think the hypercarbia would drive up respiratory rate and the person would feel the same panic they would feel if someone taped the mouth and nose shut. It's the physiologic equivalent of drowning.


Regardless, the whole "how to" debate misses the point. We're still executing something in the neighborhood of 4-6% innocent people, and there are other issues with the system not the least of which is that capital crimes are not prosecuted and punished in a race-blind or socioeconomic-blind manner. The death penalty is irreversible, costs more than life in prison, and is no more a deterrent than life in prison is. I'm not a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination, but when the only thing we get out of it is the satisfaction of revenge, ie sated bloodlust, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.
 
BobBarker said:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/documents/5-1-14 DOC letter re Clayton Lockett.pdf
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The interesting part I see is IV inserted into patients groin. I can't imagine they have central line kits. So maybe they use a 14 g to try to cannulate the femoral? Having done a few of these on "robust" patients where you could barely get the introducer in, I can see barely getting the IV in and it backing out. Sounds like poor planning. IO would have been more straight forward.
 
NOsaintsfan said:
Doesn't get much cheeper or humane than a guillotine, painless for the victim, 100% effective, organs not tainted or damaged by any chemical and it's resuable.

Sometimes you have to leave perfect alone.
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NOsaintsfan said:
Because other than the blood it makes most people happy. The guillotine is reusable (cheep), painless for the victim, doesn't introduce toxins to a body that can potentially be harvested for its organs, doesn't make someone feel guilty for pulling the trigger on a firing squad (you could link a guillotine to a computer program that will automatically drop the blade at X time), and as a bonus for all the sadistic types the blood might make them happy. Almost everyone wins.
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upload_2014-5-2_12-53-59.png
 
NOsaintsfan said:
Doesn't get much cheeper or humane than a guillotine, painless for the victim, 100% effective, organs not tainted or damaged by any chemical and it's resuable.

Sometimes you have to leave perfect alone.
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Guillotine?? R u not at all worried about bacterial transmission via the blade? Can lead to sepsis, ARDS.. Etc. I'm telling u just use a BIS.
 
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BuzzPhreed said:
Do you have any idea how expensive xenon is? The lethal injection done correctly is cheap and effective.

You don't hear about these problems in Texas do you? I wonder why.
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Not that expensive, especially if delivered by closed circuit instead of a big gas chamber. http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/91/5/709.full says:

An analysis of the cost of a 40‐yr‐old ASA I, adult male weighing 70 kg undergoing simulated elective surgery, found that 240 min of closed‐circuit xenon anaesthesia would cost $356
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Even these people who can't get an IV can strap a mask to someone's face.

Or they could just give 100000 units insulin IM.
 
jwk said:
Jeez y'all, nothing exotic is necessary. CO2 is the best of all worlds - cheap, , fast, readily available, 100% effective, no IV necessary. It's used to euthanize animals everyday. Put them in the chamber, close it up, CO2 in, everything else vents out. They're unconscious from hypercarbic narcosis before oxygen starvation even registers.
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In what context did you euthanize animals?
 
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Colba55o said:
The justice system in this country has proven itself to be fallible and discriminatory time and time again. How often do you hear about wrongful convictions being overturned?
If these people can't even get an IV straight, how can we trust that each and every person gets a truly fair day in court? If they can botch the execution process they can botch the process that led to the death penalty conviction in the first place.
Remember the hippocratic oath? How do some of you reconcile that with the pleasure you seem like you would get from pushing the execution drugs yourself? Scary...
Click to expand...

I do not support the death penalty. I think that being locked in a box for the rest of your life is truly punishment. However, if you are going to execute patients, do it correctly. When I was in medical school a man who was on death row was found to have been wrongly convicted.He came within hours of being executed.
 
gasp said:
Guillotine?? R u not at all worried about bacterial transmission via the blade? Can lead to sepsis, ARDS.. Etc. I'm telling u just use a BIS.
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Would be interesting to track the BIS values post-guillotine...

Also, PIV in the groin? Wow. Shocking that it infiltrated /sarcasm.
 
They covered the IV with a sheet because of where it was placed. Funny that they want to see the life drain from his face, but god forbid they see his dong.
 
the death penalty is effective in getting confessions from accused murderers. "If you tell us where the body is, we'll drop the death penalty and go for life in prison." It happens often. Also, society benefits from the threat of the death penalty. Lots of criminals say, "I won't do that, I could get the gas chamber for that."

Sure, we've killed a few innocent people. That sucks. But it's so rare it's not really worth worrying about. 25k people die every year in america due to traffic accidents. About that many die as a direct result of alcohol. several thousand more die in swimming pools... Society needs a threat.
 
Surfer said:
the death penalty is effective in getting confessions from accused murderers. "If you tell us where the body is, we'll drop the death penalty and go for life in prison." It happens often. Also, society benefits from the threat of the death penalty. Lots of criminals say, "I won't do that, I could get the gas chamber for that."

Sure, we've killed a few innocent people. That sucks. But it's so rare it's not really worth worrying about. 25k people die every year in america due to traffic accidents. About that many die as a direct result of alcohol. several thousand more die in swimming pools... Society needs a threat.
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This is clearly a Poe. I'm onto you, Surfer.
 
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