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Outed as an excellent anti-AA troll.
"white African American" getting in trouble?
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Outed as an excellent anti-AA troll.
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I'm half mexican and half Caucasian, I could be considered a URM so dont worry I'm not jealous of you. I do find it disturbing though that you're talking about the URM status like its some kind of prize that people should be jealous of.
You're lost and have made it clear from your previous posts that deep down you feel what you're doing is wrong.
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I'm talking about pronounced black features, please leave out the bs rhetoric about diversity, you know exactly what I'm talking about. BLACK not people straight out of Africa, I'm talking about Black Americans, because there's a difference...And that kid is definitely mixed with something, and as the post mentioned above, I'm more inclined to say part asian.
Also just found this article and I think it relates to this thread perfectly lol
http://www.wnd.com/2004/01/22929/
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I do feel that it is wrong if it was untrue. I have found that it is partially true (egyptians clearly have black ancestry). Once I know that I'm not totally lying, It is okay for me to accept this and live with myself.
And about URM status, it is like some kind of prize, at least that is what people make it sound like. And others who can't have it go against it.
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Thank you! Why did this post tick me off aside from obvious reasons? Because affirmative action exists for a good reason. It is certainly not fair to everyone. The sooner it does what it has to do, the sooner affirmative action goes away and everything will be level again. Cut-throat premeds like Mclinkin are the reason why affirmative action will stay around for much longer than necessary.
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What about the wealthy/middle class blacks who ride the system?
Who knows.... maybe some schools who need a few more black people (marshal for example) to avoid getting in trouble by the LCME for diversity infractions will care-less about whether or not he's really black, and take him just to pad the %URM. Its a vicious cycle.
He may be "cheating," but schools can "cheat" too.
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Agreed. I wasn't referring to not accepting black people. I am all for affirmative action to do what it has to do. I just want it to work for those for who it was intended to work.
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I don't know why people have a problem with this. Either race can work for me, I'm in the middle. So I can pick either one or both. I will obviously pick the one with an advantage. Its human nature. It is ethical because it is true, Egyptians definitely have black in them.
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Which it is not, thus it will stay forevvaaaaa.
Right now, it works to protect people from being excluded and others from over-representing -- which is good for everyone. I don't mind a quota system for admissions. If white males can be de-throned in medicine, why can't there be a system to protect it from being "throned" by others?
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Agreed. He got us, but pushed it too far with this post. I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not I detest his post history more after this revelation than I did when I thought he was conniving.
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Did you ever stop to think what AA is all about? I mean, you either have no idea or you're just ignoring it to fit your needs. It's not about diversifying the physician pool based on your ancestral lands. If that were true, they'd screen everyone genetically and take AA away from anyone who had european lineages. Which is obviously not the case, many African Americans have some part european heritage in their blood.
AA is relative to CULTURAL heritage, not the fact that a million years ago egyptians at some point had an ancestor from Africa. I could push this and say EVERYONE has african heritage, being that all human life arose from africa millions of years ago.
The true reason for AA is to produce physicians that eventually serve the communities who share their culture. It is a well known fact native american, african american, and latino populations are grossly underserved and receive subpar care because of it. Abusing the system like what you propose to do really cheapens the whole reason why AA is used and gives more people fodder for getting rid of it. You should feel bad, but I doubt you do because it's apparent you have a very lacking moral compass.
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As much as i hate saying this, I have to agree. Affirmative action will stick around longer than necessary but not much longer because not many people are in the same scenario I am in. But I am doing this because I can and I wouldn't be lying, I do have black in me. If they really wanted to prevent this from happening, they would have just said that they want to know your skin tone along with your race. I am finding flaws in the system to my advantage, I personally think there is nothing wrong with that.
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I guess I am just too desperate that I want anything that could help. Again, I see nothing wrong in this. The system exists, and flaws and loopholes exist in which you could bypass. I would make use of it. It is entirely ethical on my side as long as I agree that I am definitely African.
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These two little girls are the cutest Egyptian husslers (according to my brother whom I blocked out) I wonder what they would put on their apps?
In this photo, on my monitor, they look like two black girls. The fact that they are in egypt doesn't mean much...you can be a black living in egypt or a black living in antartica -- med schools want you.
OP wants to know if he can be a "white" african american since he has ancestral roots to egypt... without ancestral roots to being black (which is what the schools are really looking for).
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The kids actually exhibit some Arabic features as well as African features and that defines them as African Americans. I know what the schools are "really" looking for, but I can bypass the system without too much ethical worries.
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Really? Egyptian girls in Egypt are African Americans now? lol.
I completely understand what the OP is wanting, and I also understand what the med schools are wanting. The fact is... these little girls aren't necessarily "black" they are egyptian with probable sub-saharan (Nubian) "roots" or ancestory. Black (negro/colored) is a term commonly mashed together with afro-american, african-american, etc. While black was originally a classification of color (even light skinned blacks who were "passing" were "black"), the terms afro and african american attempts to descript those with "african roots", specifically those leading back to the african diaspora to the Americas.
This would be the only reason I would disagree with the OP, because his roots are not from the "african diaspora" period. Although he is Egyptian, and yes we all know Egypt is in Africa, this would make him Egyptian-American, rather than African-American or Black. If you simply ask a Nigerian, I've yet to meet one living in the US to consider themselves African-american, but rather they are simply Nigerian or Black. Primarily because their ancestery was not apart of the diaspora
My point in posting the picture is that these little girls identified themselves as Egyptian (after some questioning by my brother), not black and certainly not "African". I don't like race classifications, period. There are "black" indians, "black" people of Oceania (sp), etc etc. And I'm sure my daughter won't either since she, at 5, is already being questioned "what are you"
OP: Do what you need to do. But just be prepared for some raised brows and many questions to arise such as "how has being an AA male influence your life?" or "How have you given back to the AA/black community?" etc etc... As you know, in the US is more about CULTURE than ethnicity. So be ready.
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wtf?! Don't invite him in there. That place is the fun. He'll make it not the fun.
Congrats on RFU man. I saw ur mdapps.
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Thanks, dude. It's exciting that I actually get to GO!
Now I just need to get off of Jefferson's waitlist . . .
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Just the tip?
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At my school this sort of student gets a special additional interview with the dean for student diversity...I'm sure she would have lots of pointed questions to ask you about the semantics of racial descriptors, why you describe yourself as African American, or how you have been involved in your local African American communities. I do not think you would enjoy that interview experience. Any interviewer will likely start out the interview thinking that you have purposefully misrepresented yourself, and that is not a recipe for success. Now that you've admitted to yourself that you are purposefully trying to take advantage of a loophole (based on your own words a few posts above), you need to realize that many other people will probably notice the same thing and react in a negative way.
tl;dr: imho your idea seems likely to backfire.
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I do agree with this, they may react in a negative way. But I could always answer the interview questions. They could probably see that I am half-black (I actually think I'm like 75% sub-saharan African) and that is no lie.
You are pathetic. If I'm not going to mark myself as Native American on AMCAS despite being 3/8ths, there's no way you should be able to get away with marking black when you aren't even remotely black. I don't think you'll get away with it for a second. Have you thought about what you would do if you get a black interviewer?
I like that the OP thinks we are jealous.. jealous of his sub par stats that aren't good enough to get in without a URM status. haha yes yes. i am green with envy
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I don't think people who grew up in Africa should be allowed to apply as African-American, because their ancestors haven't suffered the centuries of oppression, slavery, and marginalization of genuine African-Americans.
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Long time lurker, but the amount of convoluted misinformation has forced my hand into making an account. I think there's a lot of confusion as to how the primary application asks for information about race, so I'll try and clear this up.
You have primary primary self-identification options. You may select more than one of these, as applicable.
Hispanic, Latino, or of Spanish origin
American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White
Other
Now, the OP has probably three options at his disposal. He can choose the Black or African American option, primarily on the basis that this is geographically the most accurate option at his disposal, as Egypt is without a doubt a country in Africa. He can choose White, as the precedent has been set in the past to call North African countries a part of the Caucasian demographic (although I would note this this option isn't called Caucasian, but White). Finally, there is Other, which allows you to specify why you felt that none of the above options were the most appropriate to self-identify with.
But let's say that the OP (or any other Egyptian or North African) really does strongly feel that African-American can be taken in the most literal sense possible (let's take the idea of the inherent "advtange" or lack thereof and set it aside). African American has a couple of sub-options.
African American
Afro-Carribean
African
Other (specify)
Now we have some options! To the poster that said that native africans shouldn't be considered the same as African American, here is where the distinction can be made. Now, I believe any North African would likely choose the Other option (assuming they are not a native African, and really that "African" subheading would be better replaced by "Native Subsaharan African") and would write in "North African" or "Egyptian," whichever name the individual best identifies with.
Now there's no more deception - no more confusion when faces don't match up to descriptions.
And why do I care about all this? Because I'm Egyptian of course. I'm told I'm not underrepresented in medicine, which is probably true considering how much of a minority Egyptians are in America. I wouldn't call myself disadvantaged, thanks to the hard work of my parents. But I would call myself diverse. I do think that I bring an interesting perspective as a first generation American and someone who traveled to his country of origin dozens of times. I don't self-identify as White, however. I can certainly say in elementary school I was never accused of being White... Most people originally thought I was hispanic until I grew older and developed some more traditional arab/african features (facial structure and nose size like many others in the Middle East, and hair like that of an African American). That is just part of my life experience that makes my self-identification more than just picking White because that's the "safe" thing or what I'm "supposed to do."
Regardless, I applaud AMCAS for expanding the self identification options (Asian in particular has a very hefty list to choose from, including its own Other option). I know there are people out there trying to game the system, and that sucks. Med Schools know that though, and I have no doubt that they have their own systems in place to protect themselves from the crooked. However, I do not think that this particular case is as cut and dry of a situation that the appropriate answer is to pick White or even the original Other option.
OP, quit being so antagonistic and seeking of yes-men. Do what you're going to do, but there's clearly a difference between being African American and URM and while you might be the first, you might not be the latter.
tl;dr... Sup, I'm new.
You have primary primary self-identification options. You may select more than one of these, as applicable.
Hispanic, Latino, or of Spanish origin
American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White
Other
Now, the OP has probably three options at his disposal. He can choose the Black or African American option, primarily on the basis that this is geographically the most accurate option at his disposal, as Egypt is without a doubt a country in Africa. He can choose White, as the precedent has been set in the past to call North African countries a part of the Caucasian demographic (although I would note this this option isn't called Caucasian, but White). Finally, there is Other, which allows you to specify why you felt that none of the above options were the most appropriate to self-identify with.
But let's say that the OP (or any other Egyptian or North African) really does strongly feel that African-American can be taken in the most literal sense possible (let's take the idea of the inherent "advtange" or lack thereof and set it aside). African American has a couple of sub-options.
African American
Afro-Carribean
African
Other (specify)
Now we have some options! To the poster that said that native africans shouldn't be considered the same as African American, here is where the distinction can be made. Now, I believe any North African would likely choose the Other option (assuming they are not a native African, and really that "African" subheading would be better replaced by "Native Subsaharan African") and would write in "North African" or "Egyptian," whichever name the individual best identifies with.
Now there's no more deception - no more confusion when faces don't match up to descriptions.
And why do I care about all this? Because I'm Egyptian of course. I'm told I'm not underrepresented in medicine, which is probably true considering how much of a minority Egyptians are in America. I wouldn't call myself disadvantaged, thanks to the hard work of my parents. But I would call myself diverse. I do think that I bring an interesting perspective as a first generation American and someone who traveled to his country of origin dozens of times. I don't self-identify as White, however. I can certainly say in elementary school I was never accused of being White... Most people originally thought I was hispanic until I grew older and developed some more traditional arab/african features (facial structure and nose size like many others in the Middle East, and hair like that of an African American). That is just part of my life experience that makes my self-identification more than just picking White because that's the "safe" thing or what I'm "supposed to do."
Regardless, I applaud AMCAS for expanding the self identification options (Asian in particular has a very hefty list to choose from, including its own Other option). I know there are people out there trying to game the system, and that sucks. Med Schools know that though, and I have no doubt that they have their own systems in place to protect themselves from the crooked. However, I do not think that this particular case is as cut and dry of a situation that the appropriate answer is to pick White or even the original Other option.
OP, quit being so antagonistic and seeking of yes-men. Do what you're going to do, but there's clearly a difference between being African American and URM and while you might be the first, you might not be the latter.
tl;dr... Sup, I'm new.
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Why would you NOT list yourself as Native American?
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I personally believe there shouldn't even be an option to tell your ethnicity in the application process. It's medical school. We are all on the same playing field. We all had to take the same core classes. We all took the same test (MCAT). The color of someone's skin should not give a person an advantage of getting into medical school over another. If we truly want equality, then we should all be viewed in that way and be categorized by our race or how much our parents made.
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Yes, that would be ideal.
We could discriminate against certain ethinic/racial groups based on appearance at interview and there would be no quantitative evidence that we did so. There are physicians practicing today who attended medical school back when blacks could not enroll in state sponsored medical schools in the South. And they couldn't join state medical associations and were therefore barred from joining the AMA. We are only two generations removed from Jim Crow rules in medical education and we have to be very careful not to backslide out of some odd view of "political correctness".
AAMC requires that schools enroll a diverse student body (and have a diverse faculty) and the self-identification of applicants helps them determine if the schools are doing as they should.
Because I've always considered myself white and I don't appear to be Native American. I don't have any connections to the culture (my Native American relatives (three great-grandparents) all died before I was born) I always put myself down as white on job application forms, college applications, etc. Both my parents self-identified as white and you couldn't tell they're Native just by looking. My situation is similar to the OP in that he always considered himself Egyptian, except instead of sticking with his current identity, he is eager to abandon it in order to falsify a new one in order to increase his chances at med school, and that is p-a-thetic. The practical difference is that he really doesn't have the genes to bolster his claim. Now I could easily put down Native American on the AMCAS app, and I'm sure the admissions committee members would have no problem with it, but I don't think it's right. That's not how I've ever identified. Sure, I've mentioned the heritage before, but I've always thought of myself as a rural Caucasian-American. If someone else is part-Native American and has deeper connections with it than I do, then by all means, put yourself down as Native American. Or even if you don't have connections, but you have the genes, put it down. I'm simply choosing not to.
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I understand what you're saying, being 3/8ths native american would most likely mean one of your parents is almost full native american, right? If so, how did they self-identify as white?
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Lucky you are a guy, you better shave all your hair off your hair for the interview.
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If we truly want equality all elementary and high school districts should derive funding from a pot nationally collected via taxes, this way the poorest counties and districts can actually afford to educate their kids. Also, there should be no private schools, everyone should be forced to go to the same public schools. Every school will offer AP classes and all kids will get free breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
I say this as a white guy. The process IS about equality. It just so happens the areas serviced with the lowest grades of healthcare are the poorest communities across America. Who lives in those communities? Overwhelming numbers of minorities.
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Really, dude? You're so not URM it's actually pretty funny. You've been told many, many times on here that you're obviously not a URM. You never identified as AA prior. It was only when it suddenly gave you the potential to gain from a non-existent racial/ethnic tie that you actually considered wanting to form such ties. Egyptian is generally seen as middle Eastern.
That all said, I agree with DanGee. I am considered NA (NA and white), but I did not declare it as I do not have many ties to that community. I have looked into my heritage and learned about it, but I would not be able to consider myself a part of that community. I am, instead, quite close to the local Latino community. I considered putting NA because I really do want to serve an underserved community (specifically, one or more isolated Latino communities) and I obviously could put not Latino on my app; however, I ultimately decided against that option because I did not feel it was ethical. I have still gotten into plenty of schools. Sure, my stats might have gotten me into HMS or Yale with a full-ride had I marked NA, but, honestly, my integrity is more valuable than attending a top 5 medical school.
Ditto.
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No, both of my maternal grandfather's parents were 100% Wampanaoag, while both of my maternal grandmother's parents were white, so thatmakes my mother half-Native American and half-white, genetically speaking My paternal grandfather's mother was 100% Abnaki and my paternal grandfather's father was white. Both of my paternal grandmother's parents were white as well, so that makes my father one-quarter Native American and three-quarters white. Because three of my eight grand-grandparents were Native, I am 3/8ths Native.. All of the g-grandparents died decades before I was even born. Neither my parents nor I look native American.
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Same reasoning I had. Obviously there are massive problems in many Native American communities when it comes to access to decent health care, poverty, etc., but I don't see myself working for the Indian Health Service someday or anything like that. Most if not all of my extracurriculars involved other white men (lol). I think I would have gotten in if I had applied MD with that designation last cycle, but it would have felt cheap. It's different than being black -- sure, Native Americans are dramatically underpresented in medicine, but they're also a very, very tiny percentage of the population, and most people can't tell a Native American person from a Caucasian person anyway. Besides, a huge chunk of Americans probably have a Native American g-grandfather or g-grandmother and not even know it. Should they check the box? If I were black, I would definitely check the black box, FWIW. I wouldn't need extracurriculars to justify it to myself -- just having being black in America would give me all the justification I needed. It's not like they can hide it, and the level of out-and-out discrimination they face is ridiculous.
OP would have been right at home in 1850 selling addictive "fire water" to Native Americans, and he could have even talked to them about what it's like to be black.
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Same reasoning I had. Obviously there are massive problems in many Native American communities when it comes to access to decent health care, poverty, etc., but I don't see myself working for the Indian Health Service someday or anything like that. Most if not all of my extracurriculars involved other white men (lol). I think I would have gotten in if I had applied MD with that designation last cycle, but it would have felt cheap. It's different than being black -- sure, Native Americans are dramatically underpresented in medicine, but they're also a very, very tiny percentage of the population, and most people can't tell a Native American person from a Caucasian person anyway. Besides, a huge chunk of Americans probably have a Native American g-grandfather or g-grandmother and not even know it. Should they check the box? If I were black, I would definitely check the black box, FWIW. I wouldn't need extracurriculars to justify it to myself -- just having being black in America would give me all the justification I needed. It's not like they can hide it, and the level of out-and-out discrimination they face is ridiculous.
OP would have been right at home in 1850 selling addictive "fire water" to Native Americans, and he could have even talked to them about what it's like to be black.
You seem like a great guy. Can I offer you one of my acceptances (assuming you don't/didn't get in somewhere this cycle)? ...Because I think you'd make a great colleague!
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Sounds like those poorest counties and districts are at fault for being poor. America guaranteed equality, right? If it didn't work, and America is still working, then it's their fault!
The process has never been about equality. It wasn't when most medical school matriculants were male, and it's certainly not about equality now. It is about a normative vision of what medicine should we, and we should all hope that it somehow works out in the end.
The demographics of current working physicians and current medical students entering medical school are dissimilar. If the process were about equal opportunity, it should succumb to market forces and the demographics of entering medical students would be the same as the demographics as current working physicians. If the process were about equality, then each applicant should have a contractual obligation to serve only the community they grew up in.
Ah, but we want to compromise, and still congratulate ourselves on our own ingenuity!
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Sounds like those poorest counties and districts are at fault for being poor. America guaranteed equality, right? If it didn't work, and America is still working, then it's their fault!
The process has never been about equality. It wasn't when most medical school matriculants were male, and it's certainly not about equality now. It is about a normative vision of what medicine should we, and we should all hope that it somehow works out in the end.
The demographics of current working physicians and current medical students entering medical school are dissimilar. If the process were about equal opportunity, it should succumb to market forces and the demographics of entering medical students would be the same as the demographics as current working physicians. If the process were about equality, then each applicant should have a contractual obligation to serve only the community they grew up in.
Ah, but we want to compromise, and still congratulate ourselves on our own ingenuity!
I am not saying AA is perfect, but it's better than nothing. What exactly do you suggest we do instead?
And I am sure more people would serve those areas if money was not an incentive.
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This was attempted in Oregon about 90 years ago. The Klan was a big supporter of the measure. Private schools went to court to overturn the law and won. http://www.oyez.org/cases/1901-1939/1924/1924_583
The unanimous Court held that "the fundamental liberty upon which all governments in this Union repose excludes any general power of the State to standardize its children by forcing them to accept instruction from public teachers only."
Thanks for the compliment. Even if something like that were theoretically possible, I'd definitely feel that I was cheating myself by taking it. Getting ten bucks as a gift feels good, but earning that ten bucks feels even better. If I am successful this cycle, I'll know that I earned my way in, and it will feel great.
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