Who needs a post doc?

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fallaur

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Hi, all. Question about post docs: If following internship, one wants to do clinical work and teach and not do research, how "necessary" is a post doc? I do not want to specialize perse (i.e., I do not want to be a neuropsychologist), but I do want to work with specific populations (e.g., cancer patients). Thanks in advance.

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Its "necessary" in 37 of the 50 states at the moment.
 
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you cant get licensed without one in 37 states
 
Well - from what I understand, you can't get licensed without supervised post-doctoral clinical hours in 37 out of 50 states - but you don't technically have to do a post doc in order to get there, right? You could pay someone to supervise you doing clinical work on nights and weekends in while you had a more teaching focused job; you could be hired as a full time psychologist but have a licensed psychologist supervise you until you accrued the right number of hours, etc. Post doc is just the easiest way to get there for most people.
 
Well - from what I understand, you can't get licensed without supervised post-doctoral clinical hours in 37 out of 50 states - but you don't technically have to do a post doc in order to get there, right? You could pay someone to supervise you doing clinical work on nights and weekends in while you had a more teaching focused job; you could be hired as a full time psychologist but have a licensed psychologist supervise you until you accrued the right number of hours, etc. Post doc is just the easiest way to get there for most people.

I think in most states you would still be called a post doctoral associate while you were working under the supervision of a psychologist, so technically that would still be a post doc even if it wasn't formally called a post doc
 
I think in most states you would still be called a post doctoral associate while you were working under the supervision of a psychologist, so technically that would still be a post doc even if it wasn't formally called a post doc

Yeah, I believe this is what erg meant--you wouldn't be a psychologist in that position (except in the teaching context, in which case most states I've seen allow for an academic provision to the "psychologist" clause).

If you aren't looking to pursue boarding in the area in which you'd like to work, then is a postdoc necessary? Probably not. Depends on how well-trained you feel in that area. Most folks I know who work in health psych-centric and psycho-oncology positions have done formal postdocs, but the requirement for one will probably just depend on individual job postings.
 
Most/All AMCs will require a post-doc for areas like Health Psych, Primary Care, etc. In regard to non-AMC hospital positions, a formal fellowship may or may not be required, but they should also attract multiple applicants, so a formal fellowship may help differentiate your application.
 
I have never heard of paying out of pocket for supervision. Is that legal? How is that not a conflict of interest?
 
I have never heard of paying out of pocket for supervision. Is that legal? How is that not a conflict of interest?
It is very common for non-doctoral providers, though I think it is quite a bit trickier for us. It's been a few yrs since I looked at the APA guidelines about this, so I'll defer to someone who is more familiar to fill in the details.
 
"You could pay someone to supervise you doing clinical work on nights and weekends in while you had a more teaching focused job; you could be hired as a full time psychologist but have a licensed psychologist supervise you until you accrued the right number of hours, etc. Post doc is just the easiest way to get there for most people."

Actually, not in many states. There are explicit guidelines for post-doc hours in many states that prohibit paying for supervision. Take a look at the forms that need to filled out by post-doc supervisors for the state you hope be licensed in. In many cases, you cannot pay for supervision and the individual must be an employee at the site that you obtained the post-doc hours.

That said, you don't need a formal post-doc. You could get a job somewhere and as part of the position and work with a licensed psychologist at that site for supervision.
 
Another thing to consider is that a formal postdoc in a specialized area will not only afford you the opportunity to get supervised for your licensure hours, but will also have didactics and adjunct experiences associated with it that you would likely miss out on jumping straight into practice.
 
Ok, I take back what I said about paying for supervision - I have a colleague who was hired into a teaching position in counseling psychology right ater internship and in the state he lives in he negotiated into his contract to have supervision paid for so he could pursue licensure without a formal post doc while being faculty, but it seems that scenario is an exception to the rule.
 
Semantics aside, in the majority of states one needs post doctoral supervised hours for licensure. Even if you live in a state without the required post doctoral hours it is still recommended to ensure portability of your license.

Formal post doctoral positions have an advantage by providing the supervised hours, continued training/didactics, and specialization (not to mention employment benefits, CV building, and a potential foot-in-the-door for future employment). Informal post docs, which can be arranged and designed in many different ways, provide the requisite supervised hours.

If you live in a state with no post doctoral hours requirement and you never intend on leaving that state then you will not need to do a [formal or informal] post doc.
 
I have never heard of paying out of pocket for supervision. Is that legal? How is that not a conflict of interest?

As I understand, in private practice, the cost of supervision can come out of a post-doc's hourly rate.

I know that in most (all?) states, post-doc's can't accept insurance, so (from my limited experience at least) post-doc's generally work with people who aren't using insurance, often the uninsured or people coming in for non-covered services like psychoeducational evaluations or forensic/legal testing that have to pay out of pocket. I've always assumed that the cost of supervision comes out of the practice's cut from the services rendered, I assume that the % paid out to a post-doc is less than the % paid out to a licensed psychologist for similar services rendered in the same practice since the post-doc has a supervising psychologist signing off on all of their evaluation reports, etc.

I've never worked with this first hand, but this has been my understanding of how the arrangements would work.
 
Just to echo others here, make sure you know exactly what is and isn't allowed in the state you plan to get licensed in, and then you can worry about how to get there. Some states require two hours, not one, of unpaid (by you) supervision per week, some won't allow part-time positions, some will but only for a minimum of 6 months, etc. It varies a lot.
 
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My official title is Psychology Resident. I work in a very similar role as the licensed psychologists at my site, but instead of taking in a percentage of my billable hours, I work on a salary and a staff psychologist is my primary supervisor. Also, Minnesota allows Residents and students to Bill Minnesota MA under Rule 47, so that helps to cover my salary as well as some other funding streams like county paid forensic evaluations, etc.

I have similar opportunities for "training" as I'll go to the same presentations as the licensed folks who are getting CEUs.
 
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