WHy are there so few optometry schools?

[Orange Crush]

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I don't undestand why there are so few optometry schools. Is this the result of there being ophthalmologists who can provide the same services and more? Thanks for the feedback.

 

[eyestrain]

I don't undestand why there are so few optometry schools. Is this the result of there being ophthalmologists who can provide the same services and more? Thanks for the feedback.

Because the few schools we have produce more than enough optometrists every year. Why would we need any more?

 

[prettygreeneyes]

I would argue that there are too many optometry schools! As eyestrain comments, we have more than enough graduates each year, and the last thing we need is to add another school or two to produce 100+ more. So many new graduates are entering commercial optometry because there just aren't enough private practice jobs (short of opening your own practice) to go around! I would rather see fewer colleges, smaller class sizes, and increased competition for fewer spots!

 

[rpames]

The above post are correct. We are producing more than enough ODs now. In fact, the rumor is ICO is trying to find a way to decrease class size and tuition.

 

[blazenmadison]

I read earlier about the possible new opt school in N.C. and how they are arguing there is a shortage of optometrists.

I think PCO needs to cut down its enrollment. They just opened a audiology program as well.

 

[Canadian26]

I dont think theres to few opt school at all. In Canada we only have 2, and one of them you have to be fluent in french to attend... so pretty much we have 1 school for majority of canada which accepts I think 60 students a year.

 

[Orange Crush]

I have a hard believing that there are too many optometrists. There is a huge shortage of nurses and pharmacists, and I would have thought the same would be true of optometrists. The aging baby boomer generation is increasing the demand for healthcare services. I think optometrists want to limit new schools from opening only for selfish reasons....they want to limit the number of optometrists in order keep their salaries as high as possible.

 

[xmattODx]

I have a hard believing that there are too many optometrists. There is a huge shortage of nurses and pharmacists, and I would have thought the same would be true of optometrists. The aging baby boomer generation is increasing the demand for healthcare services. I think optometrists want to limit new schools from opening only for selfish reasons....they want to limit the number of optometrists in order keep their salaries as high as possible.

Believe what you want. From the perspective of a relatively new grad there are too many optometrists. A lot of ODs have the ability to see walk-ins, in fact they are welcome with open arms. Many of our colleagues are dong $19 eye exams just to get people in the door. The majority of new grads will work commerical optometry upon graduation because they feel, correctly or not, that there is no other opportunity because of the over-saturation of optometrists in most urban centers.

 

[Orange Crush]

Believe what you want. From the perspective of a relatively new grad there are too many optometrists. A lot of ODs have the ability to see walk-ins, in fact they are welcome with open arms. Many of our colleagues are dong $19 eye exams just to get people in the door. The majority of new grads will work commerical optometry upon graduation because they feel, correctly or not, that there is no other opportunity because of the over-saturation of optometrists in most urban centers.

Why don't the optometrist move to more rural areas? I know there is a lack of optomerists in rural areas, which is the contention of the university in NC that wants to open up a new optometry school. I think optometry ranks as one of the highest paying professions according to some articles that I have read, and even the optometry schools tout excellent salaries as a reason to puruse a career in optometry. I have a hard time believing there is an oversaturation of optometrists nationally in america if optometrists are making that much money.

 

[Hines302]

Optometry is a great profession... and as a whole is making great strides to incorporate itself into the primary care community... however there is still much more to be done. Don't let people on this board discourage you from the profession... because I can sense the onslaught of post coming...

... however the reality seems to be that right now there are to many OD's, and as a result new grads are having trouble finding work because of it. Both schools and the AOA statitics on saleries can be misleading because their sample population consist mostly of private practive doctors.. not commercial.

** something to keep in mind though is that 30 years ago funding was drastically cut to most Pharmacy schools because they predicted there would be too many. How wrong they were... no one can predict what will happen in the future. ( I know this because my dad is a pharmacist and was in school around this time)

however as i said before Optometry is a great profession and one that I am committed to. Nothing that is worth having in life comes easily... you have to work for it. Same is true for life after OD school.

 

[cpw]

There might be too few schools in Canada, but that is definitely not the case here in the US. If anything a few of the larger private schools need to cut their class sizes drastically (like ICO).

Optometrists don't move to rural areas for many reasons. For me, personally, i'd be bored to tears. Second, I'm getting married and have to think of more than myself. My future husband has no place to work in a rural area. He has to have access to a major city with a major airport in order to continue in his line of work. So, rural's out for us.

And no, ODs don't have one of the highest salaries. Almost any MD speciality makes more than we do. Dentists make far more than we do. A successful veterinarian can do the same or better than we do. No, you won't starve, but unless you have a HUGELY successful private practice you'll never be rich. Comfortable yes, but not rich.

Don't think I'm bashing the profession in any way. I LOVE what I do. But, I'm not going to sugar coat or over-glorify it either. It takes major work to be successful and in most major cities there are way more ODs than are really necessary. In Houston, I have friends fighting for relief work/days since there are no opportunities for full-time or even part time work. (there are some, but they are few and far between).

My biggest advice. Move out of the city where your school is !! Look online at job listings and see where there is demand. (that's what I did) Be willing to move to a state you might not have considered before. Be flexible! There were opportunities in Tampa, I looked into them, made phone calls, and found a city where myself and my fiance could prosper. Do some research and you'll be fine. You can make a living in any city in the country, but you have to do what's best for you.

 

[xmattODx]

Why don't the optometrist move to more rural areas? I know there is a lack of optomerists in rural areas, which is the contention of the university in NC that wants to open up a new optometry school. I think optometry ranks as one of the highest paying professions according to some articles that I have read, and even the optometry schools tout excellent salaries as a reason to puruse a career in optometry. I have a hard time believing there is an oversaturation of optometrists nationally in america if optometrists are making that much money.

I don't know about you but I'm not a rural person. In addition my wife is also an OD so we would need a rural area that could support two new optometric additions to the area. The schools that want to create new OD programs want the money. They couldn't care less about the profession. If there are not too many ODs why do we accept such low reimbursment? - my wife's employer takes an insurance that reimburses...wait for it... $15 for a comprehensive eye exam. Every place I've worked takes walk-ins because they don't have a full book. Like CPW said it's a good profession, you'll be comfortable, BUT it would be great if enrollment was cut back for the good of the profession.

 

[Hines302]

CPW and Matt,

Just out of curiosity what would you guys consider a comfotable as opposed to rich? 125K - 150K a year is not unheard of for private practice owner? seems like a good living to me 🙂

 

[Orange Crush]

There might be too few schools in Canada, but that is definitely not the case here in the US. If anything a few of the larger private schools need to cut their class sizes drastically (like ICO).

Optometrists don't move to rural areas for many reasons. For me, personally, i'd be bored to tears. Second, I'm getting married and have to think of more than myself. My future husband has no place to work in a rural area. He has to have access to a major city with a major airport in order to continue in his line of work. So, rural's out for us.

And no, ODs don't have one of the highest salaries. Almost any MD speciality makes more than we do. Dentists make far more than we do. A successful veterinarian can do the same or better than we do. No, you won't starve, but unless you have a HUGELY successful private practice you'll never be rich. Comfortable yes, but not rich.

Don't think I'm bashing the profession in any way. I LOVE what I do. But, I'm not going to sugar coat or over-glorify it either. It takes major work to be successful and in most major cities there are way more ODs than are really necessary. In Houston, I have friends fighting for relief work/days since there are no opportunities for full-time or even part time work. (there are some, but they are few and far between).

My biggest advice. Move out of the city where your school is !! Look online at job listings and see where there is demand. (that's what I did) Be willing to move to a state you might not have considered before. Be flexible! There were opportunities in Tampa, I looked into them, made phone calls, and found a city where myself and my fiance could prosper. Do some research and you'll be fine. You can make a living in any city in the country, but you have to do what's best for you.

Here are the top 20 highest paying professions, according to Monster.com:

1. Surgeons
$65.89/hr
$137,050/yr

2. Obstetricians and gynecologists
$64.15/hr
$133,430/yr

3. Anesthesiologists
$63.31/hr
$131,680/yr

4. Internists, general
$61.03/hr
$126,940/yr

5. Pediatricians, general
$56.03/hr
$116,550/yr

6. Psychiatrists
$54.60/hr
$113,570/yr

7. Family and general practitioners
$52.89/hr
$110,020/yr

8. Dentists
$53.28/hr
$110,820/yr

9. Chief Executives
$51.77/hr
$107,670/yr

10. Airline pilots, copilots and flight engineers
(N/A)
$99,400/yr

11. Podiatrists

$45.43/hr

$94,500/yr


12. Lawyers

$44.19/hr

$91,920/yr


13. Optometrists

$42.35/hr

$88,100/yr


14. Computer and information systems managers

$40.33/hr

$83,890/yr


15. Physicists

$40.26/hr

$83,750/yr


16. Air traffic controllers

$40.07/hr

$83,350/yr


17. Petroleum Engineers

$39.33/hr

$81,800/yr


18. Nuclear Engineers

$38.56/hr

$80,200/yr


19. Judges, magistrate judges, and magistrates

$38.24/hr

$79,540/yr


20. Marketing Managers

$37.70/hr

$78,410/yr


Optometrists average 88K a year even when the market is oversaturated with optometrists? Wow. There is actually a shortage of nuclear engineers, and they average less than optometrists do. I don't think you can say optometrist don't make a lot of money based on this. They make more than almost any profession other than medical physicians and dentists.

 

[blazenmadison]

CPW and Matt,

Just out of curiosity what would you guys consider a comfotable as opposed to rich? 125K - 150K a year is not unheard of for private practice owner? seems like a good living to me 🙂

I think 125-150k is after 10-15 years in private practice, and you've built a solid patient base. Or unless you buy an already established practice. Most ODs rush to commerical to make around 90-100k. Optometry salaries have been stagnant and haven't keep up with other professions like pharmacy. Optometry isn't the field to go into if money is your only goal.

Move to Alaska. The average OD salary is 130k. 😛

 

[cpw]

CPW and Matt,

Just out of curiosity what would you guys consider a comfotable as opposed to rich? 125K - 150K a year is not unheard of for private practice owner? seems like a good living to me 🙂

It's a very good living. Uncle Sam takes a big chunk of that... your student loans take a HUGE chunk of that... and what's left over is enough to live well. Upper middle class definitely, yes.

Rich to me .. is someone who only works cuz they want to.

 

[cpw]

Move to Alaska. The average OD salary is 130k. 😛

One of my classmates did. 🙂

 

[xmattODx]

Optometrists average 88K a year even when the market is oversaturated with optometrists? Wow. There is actually a shortage of nuclear engineers, and they average less than optometrists do. I don't think you can say optometrist don't make a lot of money based on this. They make more than almost any profession other than medical physicians and dentists.

I don't recall saying that optometrists don't make good money. If you think you'll be "rich" you won't. If you knew me you'd know that money is not my first priority in life. You will do far better than most people in the working world and you'll live far better than the vast majority of the people on this planet. What you'll make in a day BILLIONS of people won't see in a year, however, try to get a job that you like in a major city. It is hard, not impossible. It is hard because there are too many people either competing for the same job or opening their own practice. It is just a reality that there is an oversupply problem right now. You can beleive it or not - I'm telling you from the trenches of an employed OD that there is. I think it is the opinion of most practicing ODs that there are too many of us. I'm not telling you not to become an OD. I'm just saying their isn't a shortage of us out here and there are not too few schools.

 

[Orange Crush]

I don't recall saying that optometrists don't make good money. If you think you'll be "rich" you won't. If you knew me you'd know that money is not my first priority in life. You will do far better than most people in the working world and you'll live far better than the vast majority of the people on this planet. What you'll make in a day BILLIONS of people won't see in a year, however, try to get a job that you like in a major city. It is hard, not impossible. It is hard because there are too many people either competing for the same job or opening their own practice. It is just a reality that there is an oversupply problem right now. You can beleive it or not - I'm telling you from the trenches of an employed OD that there is. I think it is the opinion of most practicing ODs that there are too many of us. I'm not telling you not to become an OD. I'm just saying their isn't a shortage of us out here and there are not too few schools.

I see that you live in Atlanta. Would it be hard to find a job in a medium sized city such as Greenville, SC or Huntsville, AL?

 

[xmattODx]

I see that you live in Atlanta. Would it be hard to find a job in a medium sized city such as Greenville, SC or Huntsville, AL?

Sorry! I do live in Atlanta but I'm not familiar with the job situation outside Metro-Atlanta. I moved here for a very specific reason and am leaving as quickly as I can. My diatribes come from experience in metro-Atlanta, metro-Portland, OR., Vancouver, WA., and other parts of WA state.

 

[stompy]

Optometrists average 88K a year even when the market is oversaturated with optometrists? Wow. There is actually a shortage of nuclear engineers, and they average less than optometrists do. I don't think you can say optometrist don't make a lot of money based on this. They make more than almost any profession other than medical physicians and dentists.

True, 88k/year is a lot of money compared to many professions. But most professions don't require you to borrow 100k-200k + interest and 4 ADDITIONAL years of your life AFTER a BS degree.

True, becoming a nuclear engineer may require an advanced degree...but I would say in that type of training/education, they usually give you a stipend/grant to cover "tuition" and living costs for the duration of that program provided you do research/TA/intern/work.

 

[J.opt]

Everybody says that there are too many ODs, but the schools won’t reduce class sizes themselves, because they want the money, and the govmt doesn’t mind over-competition, because that reduces the cost of health care.
If optos were to get serious about reducing graduation rates, whose job would it be? The AOA’s?

 

[stompy]

Everybody says that there are too many ODs, but the schools won’t reduce class sizes themselves, because they want the money, and the govmt doesn’t mind over-competition, because that reduces the cost of health care.
If optos were to get serious about reducing graduation rates, whose job would it be? The AOA’s?

Is that a rhetorical question? .

 

[jefguth]

True, 88k/year is a lot of money compared to many professions. But most professions don't require you to borrow 100k-200k + interest and 4 ADDITIONAL years of your life AFTER a BS degree.

This is what is critical for people considering optometry to realize. In a debt managment course at ICO our instructor gave us a couple of financial case studies of actual graduates. One was a part time clinical instructor at ICO and also worked at a private practice to cover the rest of here time. Despite making an income of ~85K she was unable to get a mortgage to buy a condo because of the loan repayment schedule she had chosen (10 years i think) and her car payment - she had to continue living with her parents! 😱 While it is possible to suceed despite scary situations like that, it is essential to consider the consequenes of large debts in return for an income that is slightly higher than normal; choose the right schedule to pay your loans and don't expect to live like someone making 100K from the start (even if you are).

 

[stompy]

This is what is critical for people considering optometry to realize. In a debt managment course at ICO our instructor gave us a couple of financial case studies of actual graduates. One was a part time clinical instructor at ICO and also worked at a private practice to cover the rest of here time. Despite making an income of ~85K she was unable to get a mortgage to buy a condo because of the loan repayment schedule she had chosen (10 years i think) and her car payment - she had to continue living with her parents! 😱 While it is possible to suceed despite scary situations like that, it is essential to consider the consequenes of large debts in return for an income that is slightly higher than normal; choose the right schedule to pay your loans and don't expect to live like someone making 100K from the start (even if you are).

Did she say why she chose a 10 year repayment schedule? (Pros/Cons)

 

[jefguth]

I think that OD chose the 10 year schedule b/c of a desire to be free of debt asap. However, the course instructor was recomending to students that they choose the 30 year schedule b/c the interest rates are low and the lower monthly payment would allow you to purchase a more expensive home - which traditionally is the best investment anyone makes in their lifetime.

 

[prettygreeneyes]

I have a hard believing that there are too many optometrists. There is a huge shortage of nurses and pharmacists, and I would have thought the same would be true of optometrists. The aging baby boomer generation is increasing the demand for healthcare services. I think optometrists want to limit new schools from opening only for selfish reasons....they want to limit the number of optometrists in order keep their salaries as high as possible.

🙁 I know that it may suck to discover that there is actually an oversupply of optometrists, but the fact is... there is! If there weren't too many ODs, then why is commercial optometry flourishing? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the VAST majority of new grads don't have dreams of working corporate/commerical gigs. But, they end up there because they need to pay the bills somehow.

As far as the "aging baby boomer generation" and the legends and lore of untold riches when all of a sudden they all present with a gold mine of pathology... unlikely! Most baby boomers are already presbyopes, so the ODs like me who graduate in four years won't be able to cash in on that. And there is no reason to believe that this particular generation will have previously unseen levels of pathology. It is so depressing for me to write this, but after doing the research, I can't dispute it!

I would have rather gone through a tougher admissions process and fight for fewer spots if it would mean I could find a job a little easier when I got out!!!

 

[stompy]

I think that OD chose the 10 year schedule b/c of a desire to be free of debt asap. However, the course instructor was recomending to students that they choose the 30 year schedule b/c the interest rates are low and the lower monthly payment would allow you to purchase a more expensive home - which traditionally is the best investment anyone makes in their lifetime.

What is your opinion or your course instructor's opinion on the fact that our loans will no longer be variable but will be fixed at ~6.8% due to go into effect July 1, 2006 with a view to what you just said.

No difference? (Because 6.8% is still relatively low compared to other type of loans out there?)

 

[KHE]

I think that OD chose the 10 year schedule b/c of a desire to be free of debt asap. However, the course instructor was recomending to students that they choose the 30 year schedule b/c the interest rates are low and the lower monthly payment would allow you to purchase a more expensive home - which traditionally is the best investment anyone makes in their lifetime.

This is the wrong way of looking at it.

While a house may increase in value, you can only cash in on that if you sell the house. Home equity loans don't help because they are liabilities and their interest rates tend to be variable.

In fact, your house is almost always going to be your biggest LIABILITY. The amount of money that you sink into a house every month for mortgage, interest, insurance, taxes, maintainence, utilities etc etc can be very high and can put a dent in your cash flow much more than your student loans.

The only way to get out of the "working for a living" mindset that so many people have is to have investments that generate positive cash flow, and by that I mean NOT 401(k) and IRAs. Those are important to be sure, but they are essentially long term SAVINGS plans, not investments. Your house is not going to generate positive cash flow for you.

That's not to say that investing in real estate isn't a good idea, but your primary real estate investment should not be your primary place of residence.

 

[cpw]

I locked in my student loan consolidation at 1.7% before the federal rate increase in July. I was advised to take it over 30 years since paying it off at a MUCH lower payment per month allows me to pay off my higher interest loans faster. (car payments, mortgage, credit cards, etc) There's no reason for me to pay off my student loan faster at such a low interest rate. Yes, I hate the debt ... but getting yourself out of credit card debit and paying off higher interest things is defininitely more important.

Let's say you take that extra 600 a month you're saving in paying off your student loan at 30 years vs. a 10 year loan and invest it. As long as you make a rate of return on your investment greater than the rate of your student loan.. you're MAKING money by not paying off your loan faster. They actually covered this in our practice management course.

 

[gsinccom]

great thread guys. I think one thing to keep in mind is that the average $ also takes into count those that work part-time doesn't it? A question for those that are soon to graduate or are currently practicing. If I can't afford to startup my practice right out of school or buy one out would you recommend I get a corporate job or work with OMDs? You usually make a bit more with corporate but you don't get benefits right? I know some who work with OMDs who still do pretty well and get good benefits. CPW how many hours a week do corporate locations require you to work (what about night and weekend shifts) and how many years do you have to committ to before you can go out on your own? How are these contracts you make with the corporate folks?

 

[Hines302]

My goal is to hopefully get a residency position in ocular disease at a good Opthamalogy Office or Hospital.. and learn as much as possible... and hopefully work in an OMD practice afterwards. At least until i save up to start or buy my own practice. I know I wont make as much many as commercial settings... but I know I would be more happy in that sort of setting

 

[cpw]

great thread guys. I think one thing to keep in mind is that the average $ also takes into count those that work part-time doesn't it? A question for those that are soon to graduate or are currently practicing. If I can't afford to startup my practice right out of school or buy one out would you recommend I get a corporate job or work with OMDs? You usually make a bit more with corporate but you don't get benefits right? I know some who work with OMDs who still do pretty well and get good benefits. CPW how many hours a week do corporate locations require you to work (what about night and weekend shifts) and how many years do you have to committ to before you can go out on your own? How are these contracts you make with the corporate folks?

I don't own the office ... so I work five days a week 10-6. The office itself is open seven days a week. And no, you don't get benefits because you're an independant contractor. The corporation cannot hire you and give you their benefits. Most docs I know get medical savings plans or small business plans.

The doctor I replaced left here to go to a TLC laser center to work with OMD's, make slightly less, but have health, dental and 401K.

 

[KHE]

I don't own the office ... so I work five days a week 10-6. The office itself is open seven days a week. And no, you don't get benefits because you're an independant contractor. The corporation cannot hire you and give you their benefits. Most docs I know get medical savings plans or small business plans.

The doctor I replaced left here to go to a TLC laser center to work with OMD's, make slightly less, but have health, dental and 401K.

Who is writing you your check? The corporation or the lease holding doctor?

If its the lease holding doctor, you should be paid as an employee, because that is exactly what you are. If you are not, your employer can get in trouble with the IRS, and you can actually screw yourself out of a lot of money.

S corps, LLCs, PAs and all that are fine and dandy, but in reality most of the deductions you take as an LLC or PA you can take anyways since they are unreimbursed work expenses. You should seriously consider talking to your employer because you are likely getting screwed.

 

[Ben Chudner]

I don't own the office ... so I work five days a week 10-6. The office itself is open seven days a week. And no, you don't get benefits because you're an independant contractor. The corporation cannot hire you and give you their benefits. Most docs I know get medical savings plans or small business plans.

The doctor I replaced left here to go to a TLC laser center to work with OMD's, make slightly less, but have health, dental and 401K.

YOU ARE NOT AN INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR! There are several requirements that must be met in order for you to be considered one. The biggest ones are:

You must provide your own equipment.
You must set your own hours.

I doubt you meet those two requirements. The doctor you are WORKING for is taking advantage of you. He should be paying the employer portion of your taxes, but he is letting you pay it instead. Not only is this an illegal act on the part of your employer, but if he is giving you a percentage of what you collect you may also be guilty of fee splitting.

 

[jchod]

US Dental Schools


University of Alabama School of Dentistry


Loma Linda University School of Dentistry
University of California Los Angeles School of Dentistry
University of California San Francisco School of Dentistry
University of Southern California School of Dentistry
University of the Pacific School of Dentistry


University of Colorado, School of Dentistry


The University of Connecticut School of Dental Medicine


University of Florida College of Dentistry


Medical College of Georgia, School of Dentistry


University of Illinois School of Dentistry


Indiana University School of Dentistry


University of Kentucky School of Dentistry
University of Louisville School of Dentistry


Boston University School of Dental Medicine
Harvard School of Dental Medicine
Tufts University School of Dental Medicine


University of Minnesota School of Dentistry


University of Mississippi, School of Dentistry


Crieghton University School of Dentistry
University of Nebraska Medical Center

University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey

Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center School of Dental and Oral Surgery
New York University College of Dentistry
School of Dental Medicine, SUNY at Stony Brook
University at Buffalo School of Dentistry
University of Rochester School of Medicine & Dentistry

The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, School of Dentistry


Case Western Reserve University School of Dentistry
Ohio State University, School of Dentistry


University of Oklahoma School of Dentistry


University of Pennsylvania School of Dentistry

Medical University of South Carolina


Meharry College of Dentistry


Baylor College of Dentistry
University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio
University of Texas - Houston Dental Branch


University of Washington School of Dentistry

Howard University

West Virginia University School of Dentistry


. . . Anyone who thinks that ther are too many graduates or that reducing the number of yearly graduates is going to secure their job or make them more porductive is, in my mind, very naive!!! Look how many dentists graduate each year!! Just be good at what you do. If you are really that good and love your job, you'll get the patients and make the money. Stop whining about that ther needs to only be a few hundred new ODs each year, THEN it'll be better.

 

[xmattODx]

. . . Anyone who thinks that ther are too many graduates or that reducing the number of yearly graduates is going to secure their job or make them more porductive is, in my mind, very naive!!! Look how many dentists graduate each year!! Just be good at what you do. If you are really that good and love your job, you'll get the patients and make the money. Stop whining about that ther needs to only be a few hundred new ODs each year, THEN it'll be better.

Because dentistry and optometry are the same!

 

[jefguth]

How often does the typical person see their dentist? How often does the typical person see their optometrist? And what do you spent (or what does your insurance spend) each time you visit each. Not only will you find that dental visits are much more frequent, but their reimbursments are also much larger. Hell, many middle class people (with insurance) have never even had an eye exam - I'm sure just about everyone sees a dentist at least every few years!

From what i've heard, dentistry was facing a similar situation to optometry in the 80's. Their solution; reduce the number of new graduates.

 

[eyestrain]

Because dentistry and optometry are the same!

That's what I was thinking. I don't see how the number of dentistry schools has any bearing on this conversation.

 

[gsinccom]

I don't own the office ... so I work five days a week 10-6. The office itself is open seven days a week. And no, you don't get benefits because you're an independant contractor. The corporation cannot hire you and give you their benefits. Most docs I know get medical savings plans or small business plans.

The doctor I replaced left here to go to a TLC laser center to work with OMD's, make slightly less, but have health, dental and 401K.

Hey CPW, KHE, and Ben Chudner. Thanks for making this thread educational for us future ODs faced with "what job should I take" decisions in four years.

CPW, are you committed to the corporate job for a certain amount of time and if so what is it and how does that work? At corporate gigs is your income based on the amount of patients you see or is it set?

True about dentists. They have been proactive at preserving/bettering their profession- all for the good of the profession! That is ridiculous about dentists getting reimbursed more. I see my dentist usually every 6-8 months, although at times I've waited longer, and he only sees me for 3 minutes. The rest of the time I am with the hygenist or the assistant. I see my eye-doc every one and a half years or so and may see him/her less if I get Lasik soon.

If we as a profession don't unify I am afraid that soon we will find that private practice ODs, even in group settings, will be so few it will be a joke. The only option for grads will be too work with OMDs or corporate jobs. Hasn't it already reached this point in many states. Maybe for the good of the profession ASCO should mandate 1 year residencies for those who want to work private practice, and have these spots be competitive, and then the curriculum could be watered down for all the rest who are subservient to another both in potential income and in scope of practice (whether it be to an MD or a corporation). I know it is not all about the money but we need to make the profession "worth it" for potential students otherwise they'll all end up choosing dentistry, MD/DO, or pharmacy instead. Pharmacy cause they'll make more than corporate ODs, they want the security that a corporate job and not having to build up a practice may offer, and the curriculum is easier. Dentistry cause you'll likely make twice what an OD makes, the curriculum is equal to that of OD and getting into school isn't much, if any, harder. MD/DO cause well they want the prestige or the option of performing surgery or maybe they just like/don't mind as much working with sick people and gross things. I know these are all generlizations but we really do need to unite as a profession!

 

[Hines302]

This thread leads to a good point. We all are well aware of the problems and challenges we face as a profession... and we have even discussed so possible solutions. So here is the question... how do we put these solutions into practice. Who are the powers that be... and why are they not addressing these issues?

We have talked about these issues at length... why can't we start to act?

 

[blazenmadison]

I see my eye-doc every one and a half years or so and may see him/her less if I get Lasik soon.

Some lasik procedures require you to get yearly eye exams from the co-managing optometrist, otherwise if your vision deteriorates the OMD will not redo your surgery for free.

I know it is not all about the money but we need to make the profession "worth it" for potential students otherwise they'll all end up choosing dentistry, MD/DO, or pharmacy instead. Pharmacy cause they'll make more than corporate ODs, they want the security that a corporate job and not having to build up a practice may offer, and the curriculum is easier. Dentistry cause you'll likely make twice what an OD makes, the curriculum is equal to that of OD and getting into school isn't much, if any, harder. I know these are all generlizations but we really do need to unite as a profession!

I whole-heartedly agree with you. Given what I know now (thanks to this board, odwire, and the yahoo gruop optometrysucks), I would have chosen pre-dentistry in my freshmen year of college. However, I have invested 3 interviews ($1500), 3 years as a tech for an OD, and tons of vision service work to just give up on being an OD. I like what ODs do, but the profession is facing a very uncertain future.

On top of that, we are gaining unmotivated and uneducated new OD students. A girl at my interview thought ODs could do lasik. The OD schools have to cut back enrollment (PCO/ICO) and make entrance much more competitive. We need quality not quantity.

 

[gsinccom]

This thread leads to a good point. We all are well aware of the problems and challenges we face as a profession... and we have even discussed so possible solutions. So here is the question... how do we put these solutions into practice. Who are the powers that be... and why are they not addressing these issues?

We have talked about these issues at length... why can't we start to act?

I wonder if too many ODs and schools, for that matter, are only concerned about saving their own rear ends and not the greater good of the profession? check out this discouraging link from a current OD: http://www.odwire.org/forum/printthread.php?t=3558

 

[Hines302]

Things that need to be done:

- Reduce Enrollment at private Optometry School -- This is turn will keep the quality of applicants high
- These private schools should become associated with Public Universities to help bring down the cost of tuition.

- The AOA should work with organizations that represnt OMD's in order to define a working relationship amoung both professions. (Optomestic.. I know)
- Additional Hospital Based Residencies for those OD's who wish to practice more "Medical Optometry"

- OD's should be encouraged to become part time instructors - lecturering at Physician Assistant School across the country. PA's are the primary care health professionals of the future and will be responsible for most primary care patient interactions.

- The AOA should become more associated and work more closely with State and Local Optometric Associations
- The AOA should start an agressive PR compaign to inform the public of what OD's do and the importance of Healthy Vision (not just 20/20 vision)
- Develop more programs like infant see... and promote them
- The AOA should encourage the members that own private practices to incorpoate this type of PR in there own advertising
- Work with contact lense and other eye care companies to add "see an eye care professional before use or these products" -- this will help keep their product at a premiume -- ie: looks more like a medical product than a cosmetic product.

- Strive for a National Uniform Licence - and thus a uniform scope of practice


Feel free to make comments or suggestion... (im just a student... class of 2010... this is just my 2 cents)

 

[gsinccom]

I like your suggestions. Many of them I've thought of too! I too agree strongly with improving the relationship with OMDs. Do PAs work with OMDs already...they wouldn't be qualified would they...don't some OMDs try and use an OD as their PA?..i.e., what is the purpose of you suggesting this PA, OD, OMD relationship?

 

[Hines302]

I was suggesting that PA's are beginning to replace Family Doctors as a person's primary care doctor.... it is already starting to happen. Most of the time the patient spends with a PA... and not with the actual doctors.

Thus if educate PA's they will realize how capable OD's are, and thus refer to us for vision and ocular health needs.

 

[xmattODx]

- Develop more programs like infant see... and promote them

I appreciate your post but I just wanted to disagree with the specifics of this point but not the spirit of it.

Infant See calls on optometrists to give away their services for free. This is bad for optometry and is a poor public health program.

Bad for optometry - what other profession does anything for free? Let alone for all income groups. It makes us look silly. Another one of those "free exam with purchase" type things.

Poor public health - there is a saying in the public health world that "Free Medicine is No Medicine." Even in the developing world small user fees are being implemented (for better or worse) but it is a common thought that even a small fee causes the patient to take greater ownership of their treatment.

 

[Hines302]

Matt, I would disagree with you....

Yes, while it is free service and does not provide immediate benifits for the doctor or the profession the long term effect can be much more positive! As OD's we need to start thinking like this....

By establishing that healthy vision is imprtant from an early age... we will in plant the the idea in the mind of the public that healthy vision is very important... and much more than just 20/20. Thus the public will begin to put more importance on healthy vision.. and hopefully will seek an OD!

Infant See is a great program... for an obvious reason. However it is also great for the same reason why companies donate money to charities... excellent excellt PR!!

 

[xmattODx]

By establishing that healthy vision is imprtant from an early age... we will in plant the the idea in the mind of the public that healthy vision is very important... and much more than just 20/20. Thus the public will begin to put more importance on healthy vision.. and hopefully will seek an OD!

I, of course, agree that early exams are important, however, if they are as important as we claim shouldn't parents be willing to pay for them? The AOA and other optometric organizations need to do a lot of PR work - giving stuff away is not PR its giving stuff away. Why not provide free exams to diabetics? I see a lot of diabetics getting exams every 3 years instead of every year. Perhaps by giving exams away we'll finally be able to show them how important annual exams are.

I purport, again, free is not a good public health measure, and it takes money out of your pocket.

 

[Hines302]

Your missing the point. We are talking about infants... not diabetics. Free eye exams to infants is good because it helps establish that eye care is important... because as we all know by doing these types of exams we will find infants with vision disorders. These disorders will then have to be treated.... through paid exams and treatments.

Also.. this might lead to a spring board for mandatory eye exams for school children.. etc.

We need to stop thinking about immediate benifits and start thinking about the long term. Think about it as an investment in the professions future... cause thats what it really is... and thats the point you are missing.