Why Cardiology

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guzmaa

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I have head many explanations with regards to why one would chose Cardiology.

Specially in this era of decreasing reimbursement and long hours of calls it is a tough life.

What motives you to seek cardiology fellowship, and why does it still remain one of the most competitive fellowship's?.

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Why - Cutting edge technology and research, Ego boost, pathophysiology interesting to learn, cool toys
Why not - too much call, less and less money (most people dont realize this), oversaturated job market down to nonexistant in most desirable locations (most people dont realize this),
 
I love cardiology. Have research, national meeting oral/poster presentations. I am just questioning entering cardiology because of the reasons you mentioned above: too much call, with Obamacare the reimbursements are going to keep declining. I am interested in prevention- why not just get a Preventive cardiology fellowship for 1 year? Any downsides? I do not want to do interventional or EP. Imaging is interesting, but if I wanted to do that I would have gone into radiology. Would love some input- deciding between preventive cardiology fellowship vs cardiology fellowship vs healthcare consulting.
 
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CARDIOSOURCE ARTICLE from today


http://ht.ly/jIFje

Navigating the "Valley of Death:" Health Care in Turmoil

The American health care system has never been at a more dramatic crossroads. As ACC President William Zoghbi, MD, puts it: "This change is mammoth, it is historic, and it affects everyone's life involved in health care."


I find the cowboys part funniest

Bottom line: can you thrive in this time of change?
Dr. Walpole cited an old African proverb: if you want to go fast, you go alone; if you want to go far, you go together. "The days of us being cowboys are over

hee - haw


5145_funny_cowboy_sitting_backwards_on_cow.jpg
 
I'll be starting my residency in IM soon. One of the prime reasons for picking IM was my interest in cardiology. I'm planning to do hard core research for one year in cards after i'm done with my residency..just out of love that i have for this field..
 
Soon to be interventional fellow here. I agree there comes a time when reimbursements become so low that they don't justify the sacrifice required re deferred compensation, sleep deprivation, work hours, family sacrifice, radiation / needlestick risks, etc. Each person has to decide where that threshold is for themselves, given how much they do or don't like they're job.

However, there are perhaps a handful of specialties which have the dramatic and often immediate results that we see in cardiology. Have you ever seen an STEMI during your CCU time in residency where a patient came in with recurrent electrical / hemodynamic instability, made it to the cath lab on death's door, and with a combination of primary PCI, adjunctive mechanical support, and appropriate CCU management left the hospital neurologically intact and mostly fully functional ? What about a patient who comes in in 3rd degree heart block unconscious and as the cardiologist on call you can fix the situation in a few minutes by placing a temp wire. If those sorts of situations / outcomes are not rewarding enough to you to justify the additional training, then maybe cardiology isn't for you.

On top of that, cardiology is the most data driven specialty out there... we basically invented clinical RCTs. So despite the rare bad apple who is putting in inappropriate stents or some such thing, what you do is data driven and has clear demonstrated benefit - that can't be said of many treatments in other specialties.

Do I wish that CMS would stop the ridiculous onslaught of dropping reimbursements for what we do (and physicians in general, which are clearly not the reason costs are increasing)? Of course, its a slap in the face to do 7 years of PGY training and have to justify every decision you make, and then be reimbursed based on some arbitrary / flawed decision making at the medicare / insurance level.

But if you think the grass is greener elsewhere, if CMS keeps cutting reimbursement for cardiac procedures with documented significant benefit in RCTs, how long do you think they'll keep paying for bunk therapies like kyphoplasty, where RCTs show zero benefit?

Bottom line, I hate that they keep cutting reimbursements, but the job is rewarding enough that I wouldn't consider doing anything else.
 
Soon to be interventional fellow here. I agree there comes a time when reimbursements become so low that they don't justify the sacrifice required re deferred compensation, sleep deprivation, work hours, family sacrifice, radiation / needlestick risks, etc. Each person has to decide where that threshold is for themselves, given how much they do or don't like they're job.

However, there are perhaps a handful of specialties which have the dramatic and often immediate results that we see in cardiology. Have you ever seen an STEMI during your CCU time in residency where a patient came in with recurrent electrical / hemodynamic instability, made it to the cath lab on death's door, and with a combination of primary PCI, adjunctive mechanical support, and appropriate CCU management left the hospital neurologically intact and mostly fully functional ? What about a patient who comes in in 3rd degree heart block unconscious and as the cardiologist on call you can fix the situation in a few minutes by placing a temp wire. If those sorts of situations / outcomes are not rewarding enough to you to justify the additional training, then maybe cardiology isn't for you.

On top of that, cardiology is the most data driven specialty out there... we basically invented clinical RCTs. So despite the rare bad apple who is putting in inappropriate stents or some such thing, what you do is data driven and has clear demonstrated benefit - that can't be said of many treatments in other specialties.

Do I wish that CMS would stop the ridiculous onslaught of dropping reimbursements for what we do (and physicians in general, which are clearly not the reason costs are increasing)? Of course, its a slap in the face to do 7 years of PGY training and have to justify every decision you make, and then be reimbursed based on some arbitrary / flawed decision making at the medicare / insurance level.

But if you think the grass is greener elsewhere, if CMS keeps cutting reimbursement for cardiac procedures with documented significant benefit in RCTs, how long do you think they'll keep paying for bunk therapies like kyphoplasty, where RCTs show zero benefit?

Bottom line, I hate that they keep cutting reimbursements, but the job is rewarding enough that I wouldn't consider doing anything else.

I think it's time that cardiology go the route of neurology - straight into a cardiology residency from internship. Out of all the medical subspecialties, cardiology is the least dependent on having a general IM background. Some of the stuff that comes out of our cardiology attendings' mouths is just absurd... why even do a 2nd and 3rd medicine year if you're going to ask questions like "what is that popular benzo that we use?"
 
I think it's time that cardiology go the route of neurology - straight into a cardiology residency from internship. Out of all the medical subspecialties, cardiology is the least dependent on having a general IM background. Some of the stuff that comes out of our cardiology attendings' mouths is just absurd... why even do a 2nd and 3rd medicine year if you're going to ask questions like "what is that popular benzo that we use?"

This ineptitude may be particular to your cardiology attendings. I find my IM training invaluable, and disagree completely that cardiology is the specialty least dependent on an IM background. We manage vents in the CCU. We are responsible for manipulating anticoagulation and knowing the attendant interactions. We need to know geriatrics, given our patient population. Half of our patients have COPD/diabetes (80% if you work at a VA), and we have to deal with their issues. I would argue that cardiology requires more knowledge of general IM than most other subspecialties.

FYI, I like Klonopin (long half life).

p diddy
 
I think it's time that cardiology go the route of neurology - straight into a cardiology residency from internship. Out of all the medical subspecialties, cardiology is the least dependent on having a general IM background. Some of the stuff that comes out of our cardiology attendings' mouths is just absurd... why even do a 2nd and 3rd medicine year if you're going to ask questions like "what is that popular benzo that we use?"
Should cardiology break away and be its own stand alone residency with 1 year medicine prelim?

Yes

Will they?

No.

I'm sorry but this argument that cardiology fellows NEED 3 years of medicine training is just as same to me as saying college athletes NEED to play full 4 years college before going pro. Bonkers!

Once you further specialize in cards (ie Interventional, EP, Cardiac imaging, etc) even less throw back to your general medicine training.

You don't need to spend rotation after rotation on Heme/onc, ID, Rheum, etc to better prepare you. If anything as a compromise you can have a 1 year medicine prelim and increase cardiology to a 4 year residency. 1 year more of cath/echo/EP/CCU rotations is infinitely more useful to your future as a cardiologist as 2 years of medicine residency where more than 50% of what you learn will not be applicable at all to your future.

But cardiology will never break away because we and GI (to a degree now heme/onc) are the main money makers for the department of medicine. The income that the procedures from Cards/GI bring to the department of medicine is why department of medicine will never allow cardiology to break away and make its own residency.

OP
 
This ineptitude may be particular to your cardiology attendings. I find my IM training invaluable, and disagree completely that cardiology is the specialty least dependent on an IM background. We manage vents in the CCU. We are responsible for manipulating anticoagulation and knowing the attendant interactions. We need to know geriatrics, given our patient population. Half of our patients have COPD/diabetes (80% if you work at a VA), and we have to deal with their issues. I would argue that cardiology requires more knowledge of general IM than most other subspecialties.

FYI, I like Klonopin (long half life).

p diddy

There is no way you need 10-12 months of GIM clinic while battling with drug seekers about back pain, 6 months of useless inpatient consults, and all those months of gen med wards admitting random BS to be an adequate cardiologist. I can somewhat buy the argument if you were the only cardiologist in a small town and had to manage numerous other issues, but for the vast majority of practitioners, this is not the case. And the need for GIM is infinitely minimized for interventional or EP. All you need is a prelim year with a few months of CCU, ICU, and a few months of medicine wards.
 
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Should cardiology break away and be its own stand alone residency with 1 year medicine prelim?

Yes

Will they?

No.

I'm sorry but this argument that cardiology fellows NEED 3 years of medicine training is just as same to me as saying college athletes NEED to play full 4 years college before going pro. Bonkers!

Once you further specialize in cards (ie Interventional, EP, Cardiac imaging, etc) even less throw back to your general medicine training.

You don't need to spend rotation after rotation on Heme/onc, ID, Rheum, etc to better prepare you. If anything as a compromise you can have a 1 year medicine prelim and increase cardiology to a 4 year residency. 1 year more of cath/echo/EP/CCU rotations is infinitely more useful to your future as a cardiologist as 2 years of medicine residency where more than 50% of what you learn will not be applicable at all to your future.

But cardiology will never break away because we and GI (to a degree now heme/onc) are the main money makers for the department of medicine. The income that the procedures from Cards/GI bring to the department of medicine is why department of medicine will never allow cardiology to break away and make its own residency.

OP
Great post. In the current environment I do agree that it is unlikely for cards to break off, however, I can see this materializing as reimbursement rates keep dropping. At a certain point, it will go the way of neurology, which used to be a IM subspecialty.
 
But cardiology will never break away because we and GI (to a degree now heme/onc) are the main money makers for the department of medicine. The income that the procedures from Cards/GI bring to the department of medicine is why department of medicine will never allow cardiology to break away and make its own residency.

OP

Interestingly, in my institution, Cards grosses the most but Onc nets more for the hospital. A few years ago, the Hem/Onc division actually pulled out of the Dept of Medicine. Cards almost did it last year resulting in a long overdue "retirement" of the Chair of Medicine. Not completely germane to the topic at hand, but interesting nonetheless.
 
Cardiology is one of the few fields that combines interesting disease pathophysiology with evidence based medicine and bevy of pharmacologic and procedural interventions to actually make gratifying impact in the lives of patients. But we are loosing bright minds that otherwise would have joined our field because they simply are not willing to go through 3 years of medicine training.

Take this a step further... I personally knew of several female colleagues in residency whom were interested in the field of cardiology but were planing or had just started a family and the concept of 3 additional years after general medicine training made it a difficult choice for them.

OP
 
There is no way you need 10-12 months of GIM clinic while battling with drug seekers about back pain, 6 months of useless inpatient consults, and all those months of gen med wards admitting random BS to be an adequate cardiologist. I can somewhat buy the argument if you were the only cardiologist in a small town and had to manage numerous other issues, but for the vast majority of practitioners, this is not the case. And the need for GIM is infinitely minimized for interventional or EP. All you need is a prelim year with a few months of CCU, ICU, and a few months of medicine wards.

You do need clinic and consult. Do you think cardiologists don't spend time in clinic or consulting? Are you telling me you graduated from medical school knowing how to do a perfect consultation, and manage clinic patients expertly without any experience doing so? Sounds like you're burnt out from your inner city residency.

I hope you realize that even EP and interventional cardiologists manage their own inpatients, particularly in private practice. Interventional/EP only practices are quite rare, so those specialties still see a lot of general cardiology. Even for EP/interventional alone, you'd still be admitting patients for procedures and writing for their colace.

If you want to be a good cardiologist (or any specialist), you have to do the time. I certainly wouldn't consider you well equipped for fellowship after a prelim year of 'CCU, ICU, and a few months of medicine wards.' Knowing what's normal and what's not takes time and patients. Lots of patients.

One can make the argument that those planning on specializing (not just Cardiology) undergo two years of IM residency, but only if qualified. There are plenty of residents who need the additional seasoning before going into fellowship, believe me. There are some fellows who aren't up to snuff even after 3 years of IM.

p diddy
 
You do need clinic and consult. Do you think cardiologists don't spend time in clinic or consulting? Are you telling me you graduated from medical school knowing how to do a perfect consultation, and manage clinic patients expertly without any experience doing so? Sounds like you're burnt out from your inner city residency.

I hope you realize that even EP and interventional cardiologists manage their own inpatients, particularly in private practice. Interventional/EP only practices are quite rare, so those specialties still see a lot of general cardiology. Even for EP/interventional alone, you'd still be admitting patients for procedures and writing for their colace.

If you want to be a good cardiologist (or any specialist), you have to do the time. I certainly wouldn't consider you well equipped for fellowship after a prelim year of 'CCU, ICU, and a few months of medicine wards.' Knowing what's normal and what's not takes time and patients. Lots of patients.

One can make the argument that those planning on specializing (not just Cardiology) undergo two years of IM residency, but only if qualified. There are plenty of residents who need the additional seasoning before going into fellowship, believe me. There are some fellows who aren't up to snuff even after 3 years of IM.

p diddy

Could not agree more with this. As a cardiology fellow, I end up dealing with IM stuff in clinic >50% of the time. Granted choice of stress test selection, decision to cath, choice of antiarrhythmic, device interrogation and referral for advanced heart failure therapies are the big 'cardiology' decisions I make. Can not tell you how many times I have discovered 'non-cardiac' diagnoses in the garb of 'chest pain' or 'troponin elevation'.
I agree that for 'competent' residents, 2-2.5 years of medicine training may be enough..
 
Could not agree more with this. As a cardiology fellow, I end up dealing with IM stuff in clinic >50% of the time. Granted choice of stress test selection, decision to cath, choice of antiarrhythmic, device interrogation and referral for advanced heart failure therapies are the big 'cardiology' decisions I make. Can not tell you how many times I have discovered 'non-cardiac' diagnoses in the garb of 'chest pain' or 'troponin elevation'.
I agree that for 'competent' residents, 2-2.5 years of medicine training may be enough..
In my cardiology clinic over the past few years I have pursued and made diagnoses of lung cancer with a paraneoplastic syndrome, lymphoma, pancreatic cancer, severe cervical spine disease, etc. etc. when I felt that the patient's PCP was not adequately addressing the symptoms. You're gonna see this stuff and you can punt it, but the outcome will depend on who exactly you're punting to.
I think three years of IM is probably overkill for most cardiologists, but one year isn't enough. Two sounds about right.
 
It depends on the person and the training they received in residency. I know programs where interns didn't admit patients and only covered floor call. One year at a program like that wouldn't be enough. I knew some second year residents who were fully competent and comfortable running the ICU service. And then I knew some who were totally lost and needed to call the fellow/staff for every admit. Three years might be overkill for some, but definitely not all.
 
I still fail to see a solid argument against cardiology becoming its own residency. In regards to the concerns raised about length of training I would rather extend cardiology to a 4 year stand alone residency with 1 year medicine prelim.

Just thinking out loud off the top of my head:

1 year prelim – 3 months MICU, 3 months CCU, 3 months general medicine wards, 2 months general medicine consult, 1 month vacay

4 year cardiology residency

1 st year – 3 months outpatient echo/ESE/ETT, 3 months cardiology consults, 1 month EP, 2 months cath, 1 month cardiac imaging (Nuc/CT/MRI) , 1 month research, 1 month vacay

2 nd year – 3 months CCU, 2 month cardiology consults, 2 month cath, 2 month inpatient echo, 1 month EP, 1 month research, 1 month vacay

3 rd year – 3 months CCU, 2 month cardiology consults, 2 month cath, 2 month inpatient echo, 1 month EP, 1 month cardiac imaging (Nuc/CT/MRI), 1 month vacay

Chief year – 2 month cath, 2 month inpatient echo, 1 month EP, 1 month cardiac imaging, 5 month research, 1 month vacay


I agree the prelim year sounds tough but if you can't stand the heat…

You cannot honestly tell me that a person of equal intellect and dedication going through the above theoretical training would come out less of a cardiologist than the same person going through the current 3 year medicine followed by 3 year cardiology fellowship.

I would even go as far to argue the dedicated shorter (5 years vs 6 years) training would yield a better cardiologist.

Do specialist of all walks manage general medicine matters in their clinics? I guess to a degree yes. I also agree that private practice cardiologist/EP/interventionalist even to stay a float may take the PCP role with some patients in regards to certain conditions (ie DM management, anemia workup, etc, etc).

With that said if I had a specific medical problem would I want a specialist from a different field to manage that problem? If I have nephritic syndrome do I go to my pulmonologist? Would I want my nephrologist managing my rheumotologic issues?

Making it more basic would I go to a hematologist to optimize my diabetes management? Should I ask an ID physician to help me with COPD pharmacotherapy?

Yes theoretically if you practice in a remote town where you are the only doc around a 50 mile radius would 3 years of general medicine coming handy? Perhaps. But for the rest of us who have colleague in different fields of medicine that we refer to and to whom we rely on for their referral to keep our practice alive than going at it alone is not ideal. If anything once your referring physicians (the PCPs and other GM specialist hear you are managing their patients in their field well that is a quick way to make sure you will never get their referral again).

I would rather have the extra year of cardiology training and leave the 2 years of general medicine and non cardiac specialty clinics for someone still trying to figure out what specialty if any is the right option for them. For those who know cardiology or EP/IC/HF etc is the calling then a shorter dedicated 5 year path should be made available.

OP
 
In my country, cardiology has its own residency.
 
You do need clinic and consult. Do you think cardiologists don't spend time in clinic or consulting? Are you telling me you graduated from medical school knowing how to do a perfect consultation, and manage clinic patients expertly without any experience doing so? Sounds like you're burnt out from your inner city residency.

I hope you realize that even EP and interventional cardiologists manage their own inpatients, particularly in private practice. Interventional/EP only practices are quite rare, so those specialties still see a lot of general cardiology. Even for EP/interventional alone, you'd still be admitting patients for procedures and writing for their colace.

If you want to be a good cardiologist (or any specialist), you have to do the time. I certainly wouldn't consider you well equipped for fellowship after a prelim year of 'CCU, ICU, and a few months of medicine wards.' Knowing what's normal and what's not takes time and patients. Lots of patients.

One can make the argument that those planning on specializing (not just Cardiology) undergo two years of IM residency, but only if qualified. There are plenty of residents who need the additional seasoning before going into fellowship, believe me. There are some fellows who aren't up to snuff even after 3 years of IM.

p diddy

I still think Cards can be it's own Residency if it's 4 years similar to Neurology or 5 like Radiology. 1 year of prelim medicine and 4 years of cardiology. We are not saying that these prelims would be fit for a fellowship we are changing the training for it to be a residency in it's own right. With decreasing reimbursements and the ineligibility for med students to qualify for subsidized loans it just makes sense.
 
I still think Cards can be it's own Residency if it's 4 years similar to Neurology or 5 like Radiology. 1 year of prelim medicine and 4 years of cardiology. We are not saying that these prelims would be fit for a fellowship we are changing the training for it to be a residency in it's own right. With decreasing reimbursements and the ineligibility for med students to qualify for subsidized loans it just makes sense.

You're missing the point. I think it would make sense to have cardiology training be 5 years total. I disagree that this should be 1 prelim year and 4 years of cardiology. It should be two years of IM for those qualified, then 3 years of cardiology. I see strong IM training as essential, even more so for a practicing cardiologist.

p diddy
 
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I personally feel cardiology is a great mix of academic medicine, radiology (echos, nuclear, CT, MRI), procedures (catheterization and TEE) as well as actually practicing medicine by seeing patients (which is a bit lacking in radiology). Also, don't forget heart disease is the #1 cause of death in the US, so you can make the biggest impact here. Salary is nice as well of course. In private practice, a busy cardiologist can bring in 600K/yr.
 
I personally feel cardiology is a great mix of academic medicine, radiology (echos, nuclear, CT, MRI), procedures (catheterization and TEE) as well as actually practicing medicine by seeing patients (which is a bit lacking in radiology). Also, don't forget heart disease is the #1 cause of death in the US, so you can make the biggest impact here. Salary is nice as well of course. In private practice, a busy cardiologist can bring in 600K/yr.

Moar.

p diddy
 
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