today in pharmacology class, I was asked by my lab partners about pod school- they didn't know very much and I didn't mind explaining. They were very nice about it, and one even seemed interested in applying. however, the pre-med on the adjacent table was really rude about it-- saying how PODs are below physical therapists and optometrists- and how I shouldn't applied to pharm school instead. at that point i was a little rude right back, but believe me she deserved it. so, i want to know- have you met ppl like this? have you had to stand up and explain what DPMs do? And do you think we'll ever reach a point where we'll be respected by the pre-meds and others out there or will this lack of information continue?
Why do [some] pre-meds look down on DPM's?
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they look down on anything non-premed (usually non pre-MD)
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I can relate to that as some one who applied to MD school and DPM school and got into both. I received a ton of negative comments and the like about podiatry. Bottom line is that you have to decide what you want to do. If you really want to make a difference in people's lives, make a decent living, not put your fingers into bodily orifices daily, or wake up at 2 AM your entire career, then podiatry sounds pretty appealing. Podiatry is a great field you can be a deformity correction specialist, and trauma surgeon of Foot and ankle, a generalist, a research guru, a surgeon, wound care guy, or anything else you can think of relating to foot and ankle care. You can work a ton, or as little as you want and still eat pretty well. Just remember that the grass isn't greener on the MD side or the DPM side. They both have their issues. Both currently have a projected residency shortage of ~ the same magnitude for those interested in that.
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Orthopedic surgeons look down on podiatric surgeons. Other MDs look down on DOs who look down on DPMs, Pharamcists, dentists and optometrists...
It's sad that we have deal with this medical hierarchy, but that's reality.
Just remember, when you become a DPM, no MD is going to know as much as you know about the foot and ankle, just like no MD is going to know as much about teeth as a dentist...that's kinda the point of having a separate schooling system.
It's sad that we have deal with this medical hierarchy, but that's reality.
Just remember, when you become a DPM, no MD is going to know as much as you know about the foot and ankle, just like no MD is going to know as much about teeth as a dentist...that's kinda the point of having a separate schooling system.
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Yea you will hear that stuff every once and a while, but from my experience it is mostly from those who aren't educated on our current training and such. People are usually pretty surprised when they learn we have four years of Pod school followed by three years of PM&S residency (wow, that sounds an awful lot like medical school). As a matter of fact, I've encountered numerous D.O.'s in my class that have no idea what our training is and are surprised to find out it is so similar in training to theirs.
As for one day being seen as equals, yes that should happen one day and already has happened all over the US. Vision 2015 is working towards this, but it will take a while until the general public fully understands the realm of podiatry.
As for one day being seen as equals, yes that should happen one day and already has happened all over the US. Vision 2015 is working towards this, but it will take a while until the general public fully understands the realm of podiatry.
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I agree with this. From my experience, I have not met any MDs that look down on DPMs. Its usually the premeds talkng crap.
At Barry, we get a lot of PA students talking crap about the POD students.
Unless you are a brain surgeon from harvard you will be discriminated against. There are a lot of egos that come with working in medicine and it's just something that you will have to try and ignore.
In the end it is all about the money. No MDs wanted to deal with the feet until they found out how much money we make doing surgery. I personally believe that we are qualified to treat knee and hip problems but that is a turf battle that the orthopods are going to fight extremely hard for.....
In the end it is all about the money. No MDs wanted to deal with the feet until they found out how much money we make doing surgery. I personally believe that we are qualified to treat knee and hip problems but that is a turf battle that the orthopods are going to fight extremely hard for.....
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We are not trained to treat knee and hip problems, therefore we are not qualified to treat those conditions. We are physicians and surgeons of the foot and ankle - not orthopedic surgeons - so lets not get carried away.
With respect to the egos in medicine, I do agree that this is very common. I also believe that turf wars are common everywhere - gen internisits vs endocrinologists vs gen surgery; Vascular vs Cardio; ENT vs Plastics; Plastics vs Vascular; and many more. Our job as clinicians is to not get consumed with these "battles" but to work collaborately for the better care of the patient.
To the OP, don't get carried away with ignorant opinions. You'll hear plenty of praise in our field and some negativity as well. The only way you can treat ignorance is by educating the public, health care professionals, and peers. This is still an uphill battle but we are making vast progress as a profession. Twenty years ago, two years of surgical training was rare. Today, we are at an era where we have sound training and relationships within the medical community. We still have alot of work ahead of us as future clinicians but the future is certainly bright with optimism in my humble opinion.
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Why do you care? Serously?^
Most "pre-meds" will never reach med school anyways, so laugh it off, and go on with your life. If your goal is to be the most famous and respected doc in the country, then go into neurosurgery, heart surgery, pediatric oncology, or some other noble field. PS, enjoy being fat, bald, and probably on your 4th marriage by age 40.
A better question is if practicing MDs and DOs will respect podiatry, and the answer is generally a big "yes" because most already do. The vast majority of docs out there care about their patient outcomes and relieving patients of pain and suffering, so they are very happy to see anyone who will help salvage a diabetic foot, reconstruct a flatfoot or rheumatoid foot, repair a foot/ankle fracture.
There are some older pods out there with mimimal training and limited treatment capabilities (derm, nails, etc), but 3yr post graduate surgical training is now becoming the norm. Also, based on past training models, a fair amount of practicing MDs don't realize how well trained the vast majority of DPMs are today; that will continue to improve with time. Assuming they've consulted or rotated with DPM residents, I really doubt any young ER, vasc, ID, int med, etc resident coming out of training these days doesn't think pods are a vaulable part of the health care team. If they don't recoginze it, then that's due to lack of awareness (which can be improved) or a rediculous, stubborn ego (which is not the kind of person you want to work with or have your patients seeing anyways).
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These sort of things are just stupid to say. When you have mastered every foot and ankle pathology, treatment, and surgical procedure, let me know. In the meantime, go study anatomy or biochem.
It's fine to know the anatomy and normal alignment of the knee and hip (or any region of the body for that matter) because a malalgned proximal joint must be taken into account for a distal sugery to have optimal results. However, the only reason you should use that info is to recognize hip and knee deformities and refer them appropriately.
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I guessing that the pre-med student was rude becuase they are extremely competitive and need to boast their self esteem. I know alot of other fellow pre-meds who are only pre-med becuase number wise it is the hardest track to get into human medicine. I have seen pre-med students even be rude to others who apply to lower tier med-school or DO schools.
When it boils down, it a competition game and if many pre-meds are not on top application wise it makes them uneasy. I see it kinda like penis envy.
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I don't really think a "medical hierarchy" exists in medicine amongst doctors. You generally have a lot of MD/DO/DPM's that work well together and each have a different area of expertise. For instance, it would be completely idiotic for an internist to think that anyone should know medicine as well as they do. That is their job. Orthopods are great at orthopaedics but generally will stare at the foot for a few minutes and then call a podiatrist or send it to the pod that their group has hired. Pods are the foot and ankle experts. This goes on and on with every other medical specialist.
Sure, every once in a while an idiot somehow gets through the system and thinks that they are God. I work with a plethora of specialists daily. They consult us because of our medical/surgical knowledge of the foot and ankle. I don't look down on them because they don't know everything about the LE. Why would they look down on us??? And that's my point, they don't.
Pre-meds on the other hand often act the way they do out of ignorance. They will all learn soon enough. The major problem is that very few college counselors and undergrad administration as a whole know very little about our profession. They don't understand our training or what it is that we do and we have no one to blame but ourselves. I know that yearly, DMU brings in college counselors from all over the country to educate them on podiatry. I actually gave a presentation to them a few years ago and most of them were very suprised to learn about what we do. For the most part, they had no idea that we were surgeons, held hospital privileges, etc. I would hope that every program, as well as the APMA, is actively involved in educating undergraduate institutions. This will greatly benefit the profession in the long run.
Sure, every once in a while an idiot somehow gets through the system and thinks that they are God. I work with a plethora of specialists daily. They consult us because of our medical/surgical knowledge of the foot and ankle. I don't look down on them because they don't know everything about the LE. Why would they look down on us??? And that's my point, they don't.
Pre-meds on the other hand often act the way they do out of ignorance. They will all learn soon enough. The major problem is that very few college counselors and undergrad administration as a whole know very little about our profession. They don't understand our training or what it is that we do and we have no one to blame but ourselves. I know that yearly, DMU brings in college counselors from all over the country to educate them on podiatry. I actually gave a presentation to them a few years ago and most of them were very suprised to learn about what we do. For the most part, they had no idea that we were surgeons, held hospital privileges, etc. I would hope that every program, as well as the APMA, is actively involved in educating undergraduate institutions. This will greatly benefit the profession in the long run.
i agree with u, her views didn't change how i see podiatry, but it's so annoying to have to deal with these kind of ppl.
and btw, this was someone who has gotten accepted to med school, so perhaps it's a pre-med school/competetive ego problem.
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I think a good part of the bias against pre-pods by pre-meds is that they see that pod school is easier to get into than allopathic medical school, and in their minds it somehow means that it is somehow inferior. Some of the "biggest/smartest" (self-annointed) pre-meds still have no idea about our training, or even their own. I heard the President of the Pre-med society on campus say that he was going to do either a 1-year internal medicine residency or a 2-year orthepedic surgery residency. For some reason, I never paid attention the next time he told me not to apply to pod school 
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If you think that is bad, You should see how some of the scrub nurses with almost no education, treat some of the podiatry attendings! If that bothers you, you are looking in the wrong direction in my opinion.
I will agree with jobwill and say that most MD/DO see you as an equal because they know being a doctor isnt all it's cracked up to be.
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Many people do not dream of treating feet, Podiatry will never be the kind of dream career that Medicine has been. Even Dentistry does not get the disrespect that Podiatry constantly gets. When I went to a few Pod interviews the interviewers were trying to sell the school to me, when an applicant applies to medical or dental school, its the applicant trying to sell him or herself to the school.
A long time ago DOs used to be treated as second class doctors, these days, in virtually every state, they are equal to MDs. Only in Ivy League universities are DOs still below MDs.
There is no consistent or verifiable data regarding Podiatrist incomes like there is for Doctors and Dentists. If you look at some websites on podiatry, some of the stories are absolutely frightening.
A long time ago DOs used to be treated as second class doctors, these days, in virtually every state, they are equal to MDs. Only in Ivy League universities are DOs still below MDs.
There is no consistent or verifiable data regarding Podiatrist incomes like there is for Doctors and Dentists. If you look at some websites on podiatry, some of the stories are absolutely frightening.
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You must be a pre-med or just plain ******ed.. this whole "disrespect that Podiatrist constantly get"..I've never experienced it nor seen it in clinics except during undergrad when I was a pre-med myself....and it usually comes from the insecure or ignorant folks. Even when "just" treating the feet, there is great deal of medicine involved..u gotta know your shiit if ur gonna hook patients up to anesthesia and cut them open to fuse bones and joints.. And this is coming from my general medicine instructor who happens to be an MD. If ur so worried about consistent or verifiable data regarding income, why dont u shadow several podiatrists and see how well they do?
None of us would invest 150K into our education if we didn't think the return would be worth it. Our profession is still not well known to the general public..which explains the marketing efforts by the schools... but in hospitals, we get referrals all the dam time. I'm already doin clinicals and there just aren't enough time in a day to take care of all these patients w/ foot & ankle problems. We really need more people!
I dont know about you..but my dream was to be a surgeon, change people's lives, make money, and have a life. Podiatry offers me all of the above and I'm very very happy w/ my decision.
Forgot to mention that a lot of us pod students actually got accepted to allopathic medical schools but decided not to attend. It was clearly a lifestyle choice (for a lot of us). Why do u think dermatology or plastic surgery residencies are very tough to get into for regular medical students? (think competition)
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I've met podiatrists who make over $200K and enjoy great hospital privileges.
You know....one great source is the VA. The salaries of DPMs who work for the VA is available to the public. Keep in mind that the salary for these podiatrists is on the lower end as they work for the VA but at the same time enjoy other benefits as well as giving back to our veterans. Case in point- they make over $100K as well (in case any of you have doubts).
You know....one great source is the VA. The salaries of DPMs who work for the VA is available to the public. Keep in mind that the salary for these podiatrists is on the lower end as they work for the VA but at the same time enjoy other benefits as well as giving back to our veterans. Case in point- they make over $100K as well (in case any of you have doubts).
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True, many people don't dream of treating feet, but I doubt many people dream of medicine the way it ACTUALLY is. Many pre-meds have such a warped view of Medicine. I've worked in all kinds of environments, including Obgyn, dental, oncology, ICU...and believe me, things got pretty "gross" pretty quick, far more than Ive ever witnessed in any podiatry setting. If you're scared of these podiatry school stories, you shouldnt go into medicine AT ALL.
Regarding DOs, it is a MUCH more complicated story than most people understand. In California, Many MDs wandering around here were previous DOs who were forced to change their practicing titles in a supreme court ruling when MDs were starting to feel the competition of DOs. The DOs pushed for recognition in the 60s and now, according to you, they are equivilent to MDs. DPMs are pushing for recogntion now, and hopefully, by 2015 the profession WILL be the kind of "dream career that Medicine has been."
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I don't know why there are people with such negative feelings about podiatry. Recently I've grown really interested in this field but I've received some negative responses when I mention it. More specifically from my husband's grandfather who is a retired neurologist. How do you go about convincing someone it's a career with great potential? I know the logical thing to do is to just ignore them. But I come from a traditional family where you can't just ignore your elders... no matter how backwards their comments might be. 
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I don't know why there are people with such negative feelings about podiatry. Recently I've grown really interested in this field but I've received some negative responses when I mention it. More specifically from my husband's grandfather who is a retired neurologist. How do you go about convincing someone it's a career with great potential? I know the logical thing to do is to just ignore them. But I come from a traditional family where you can't just ignore your elders... no matter how backwards their comments might be.
It certainly is a challenge and I would bet that your husband's grandfather does not know exactly what podiatrists are trained to do. Bottoom line is this decision to become a podiatrist is a life-time committment, so only pursue it if it makes you happy. Your family will support you as long as your happy with what you do and do a great job at it because believe me, podiatry is a very rewarding field (professionally). Not many specialties give you the opportunity to save limbs (conservatively, wound care, I&D's, and reconstructive procedures) and at the same time treat a variety of patients who need your service as a foot and ankle specialist. My advise for you is to shadow doctors and do some "soul-searching", and if this is something you want to do then go for it regardless of what anyone says (you don't have anything to be ashamed of)
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[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]Calamities are of two kinds: misfortune to ourselves, and good fortune to others. ~Ambrose Bierce
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Anybody who talks to you about societal "levels" of the various professions is at least one form of idiot, if not many. Don't listen to them. Do what you you want to do and don't worry about whether or not some people look up or down at you based off of your occupation. In addition, here is one person pet peeve of mine expressing itself as a plea: please don't be one of those "I'm a doctor, too" types. I can't even mention the word "doctor" in reference to physicians and surgeons around a surprising number of Chiropractors I've met unless I want to hear the "I'm a doctor, too" speech.
