Why does undergrad not matter?

[xnfs93hy]

People say that Undergraduate institution does not matter, and I hear others say that it matters a little bit. What is the truth?

And WHY exactly does it not matter where you go if you are applying to medical school but it does if you are applying to law school?

I mean, I plan on going to my CC for a year and transferring to University of Kentucky but that is because I like it, it is a good school but not very prestigious. I may even get in after applying this fall hopefully. I am looking at a ton of schools out there but none of them are prestigious (many people have heard about them though) but they ARE good schools with good reputations.

And half the time when I look at peoples MDapps, they are all coming from top undergrads.

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[circulus vitios]

I say it doesn't matter because bio/chem/o-chem/physics are the same at Harvard as they are at the University of Kentucky.

As for law school, I have no idea. Maybe because law is more of an 'old boys club' than medicine?

 

[DrYoda]

It doesn't matter much because they are interested in you, not your school. Many prestiges school have great students, but then there are great students at all kinds of schools. There is a higher concentration of great students at these big-name schools, but they don't care about these other students, they care about you. This is why your grades, MCAT and ECs all trump your undergrad.

Edit: Not sure about law school.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I say it doesn't matter because bio/chem/o-chem/physics are the same at Harvard as they are at the University of Kentucky.

The schools I contacted when I applied indicated that your school does matter a little bit. Why? While the base material is the same - obviously, physics and chemistry and biology aren't location-dependent - the way you're tested on them can differ enormously. My tests at UNC were far more difficult than the ones I saw from other nearby institutions for the same classes.

 

[BigRedBeta]

It doesn't matter much because it's impossible to distinguish what a school really provides in terms of making you a better physician. The only certainties are that the top name schools are filled with intelligent, hard working students who do well on standardized tests...which sounds a lot like the average medical school cohort. The qualities that get you into the Harvards and Yales of the academic world are the exact same things that get you into medical school...but the Ivy League does not have a monopoly on those types of students.

But, beyond that, can you say with any certainty that Gen Chem 1 at Harvard is more difficult than Gen Chem 1 at Middle Tennessee State (no offense to any MTSU students here)? What if the prof at Harvard is an amazing teacher who engages their students into the material and is an expert at making it make sense while the prof at MTSU is foreign, hates teaching, just wants to get back to their lab and doesn't really care if anyone understands the material? Which class is going to be more difficult?

Everyone gets all up in arms over the differences between schools and how that must make a difference, but forgets that it really comes down to the professors - hell, even different sections of the same course at the same school can be wildly different in the levels of difficulty, simply because the professors test differently and teach differently and have different priorities.

As for the law school issue, it's because law is a more prestige driven field to begin with. There are several reasons why this is.

1) More law schools with larger class sizes than medicine
2) Compared to medicine, much easier to get into law school (if you're willing to go anywhere)
3) Law school doesn't teach you how to be a lawyer...it teaches you how to think about the law and some schools do a better job than others
4) Points one, two, and three combine to mean that the there is a very wide range of qualifications for those who hold JD's - from the very, very top of the top (Barack Obama as president of Law Review at Harvard) to the very very bottom of the barrel (your ambulance chaser with ads in the men's room of strip clubs)
5) Law is already a pretty subjective field, but people want some way of determining who's good, so prestige begins to matter for hiring decisions. This becomes the prevailing method of establishing who's good and who isn't, and becomes a part of the legal culture. That in turn gets brought into the culture of law schools and before you know it, prestige matters for admissions decisions into law school. Then in an attempt to be some what more objective, the LSAT is used, and then that number effectively stratifies you into what schools you can get into without them having even laid eyes your application.

 

[cajunchrisbu]

one of my profs always says that undergrad is more of an endurance test than anything, especially in the sciences. With this being said he likes to make the point that as long as you can hold on for the ride with high scores that you will be successful in what ever you choose to do (medicine included).

I don't know if anyone else feels this way but I am inclined to agree with him, regardless of where you go the undergrad degree (especially a pre-med track) seems like this kind of situation. Like a marathon, those that win are the ones that set a pace and can maintain it to the end. So with that said it doesn't matter where you "train" or go to school, it only matters how long you last on race day.

 

[Silverman780]

The prestige also deals with the faculty it attracts and the work they bring with them, that gives you connections to people who are in the field at that high caliber. You get to learn from the best if you are lucky enough to get to know them which is hard at a bigger university.

 

[BigRedBeta]

The prestige also deals with the faculty it attracts and the work they bring with them, that gives you connections to people who are in the field at that high caliber. You get to learn from the best if you are lucky enough to get to know them which is hard at a bigger university.

That's rather presumptive, doesn't answer the OP's question in any way, and ignores a lot of facts.

1) Bigger doesn't equal worse
2) Great researcher (which is what gets people into high prestige positions) doesn't mean great teacher.
3) Ease of getting to know a professor is usually most dependent on that professor - do they have extra office hours, do they enjoy sitting around talking to students or would they rather answer the questions then end the encounter, do they respond to emails quickly, etc. It's also very student dependent, effort can go along way.
4) There are plenty of small, prestigious LAC's with small, mediocre science departments that still turn out highly successful pre-meds...but it's not because of anything the school is doing (other than accepting students who are intelligent, good test takers, hard working, and dedicated, with good time management skills).

 

[lammoush09]

And WHY exactly does it not matter where you go if you are applying to medical school but it does if you are applying to law school?

Q. What do you call the person who graduates last in their class from the worst medical school in the country?
A. Doctor.

Q. What do you call the person who graduates last in their class from the worst law school in the country.
A. A jobless unlucky fool.

I mean, I plan on going to my CC for a year and transferring to University of Kentucky but that is because I like it, it is a good school but not very prestigious. I may even get in after applying this fall hopefully. I am looking at a ton of schools out there but none of them are prestigious (many people have heard about them though) but they ARE good schools with good reputations.

And half the time when I look at peoples MDapps, they are all coming from top undergrads.

Listen, if you work hard and do well, graduate with honors and a high GPA, and get a good MCAT score, that's all that is going to matter. If you don't do that, then your chances at medical school are low, even if you went to Harvard for undergrad. Wherever you go, you have to do well to succeed, so keep that in mind.

 

[URHere]

Listen, if you work hard and do well, graduate with honors and a high GPA, and get a good MCAT score, that's all that is going to matter. If you don't do that, then your chances at medical school are low, even if you went to Harvard for undergrad. Wherever you go, you have to do well to succeed, so keep that in mind.

Well said. In my opinion, your undergraduate institution only starts to hold real weight when you are somewhere closer the middle of the pack. If you are not an academic superstar, but also not an easy reject, schools might look a little bit closer at where an applicant went to undergrad. After all, top schools do come with a reputation, and most times have well-funded labs, and more well-known faculty (who are likely to be writing student recommendations). When it comes down to it, that student from the top university may be just a bit more likely to have ridden on the coattails of his PI to a publication, conference, or something else that looks very good on a med school application. On the other hand, the student from the top school may have ended up with a mentor/advisor who was too busy to actually advise them well. Can you tell which is the case? Not really, but that certainly doesn't keep people from guessing. Even if the details aren't a factor, you can't deny that big schools get the "oh, wow" response, even from some admissions committee members.

Honestly though, I think the biggest factor is how much a student likes where they are going to school or how hard they are motivated to work by their school. If someone goes to Harvard, will they be more likely to study their tail off out of fear of failing a class than if they go to someplace less well-known? Maybe. Is a student likely to do better if they go to a school where they are actually happy? I would say so.

 

[stonewall22]

one of my profs always says that undergrad is more of an endurance test than anything, especially in the sciences. With this being said he likes to make the point that as long as you can hold on for the ride with high scores that you will be successful in what ever you choose to do (medicine included).

I don't know if anyone else feels this way but I am inclined to agree with him, regardless of where you go the undergrad degree (especially a pre-med track) seems like this kind of situation. Like a marathon, those that win are the ones that set a pace and can maintain it to the end. So with that said it doesn't matter where you "train" or go to school, it only matters how long you last on race day.

Generally, I don't agree. I went to a great school for undergrad, and consequently, got lots of looks for grad school. Now, for medical school, university is better than community college, but your grades and test scores probably matter more than the university. Just my opinion.

 

[135892]

People say that Undergraduate institution does not matter, and I hear others say that it matters a little bit. What is the truth?

And WHY exactly does it not matter where you go if you are applying to medical school but it does if you are applying to law school?

I mean, I plan on going to my CC for a year and transferring to University of Kentucky but that is because I like it, it is a good school but not very prestigious. I may even get in after applying this fall hopefully. I am looking at a ton of schools out there but none of them are prestigious (many people have heard about them though) but they ARE good schools with good reputations.

And half the time when I look at peoples MDapps, they are all coming from top undergrads.

Undergrad instituion does matter, I don't think anyone will argue that. What's arguable is, to what extent it matters, and in what capacity. For medicine though, if you have the grades, mcat, ec's, and everything else, you most likely will get accepted somewhere, regardless of what undergrad instituion you're coming from. Now, will you get into Harvard coming out of a low-ranked institution? Possibly, but the road is tougher than it would be if you attended, say, Yale for undergrad.

 

[lammoush09]

Well said. In my opinion, your undergraduate institution only starts to hold real weight when you are somewhere closer the middle of the pack. If you are not an academic superstar, but also not an easy reject, schools might look a little bit closer at where an applicant went to undergrad. After all, top schools do come with a reputation, and most times have well-funded labs, and more well-known faculty (who are likely to be writing student recommendations). When it comes down to it, that student from the top university may be just a bit more likely to have ridden on the coattails of his PI to a publication, conference, or something else that looks very good on a med school application. On the other hand, the student from the top school may have ended up with a mentor/advisor who was too busy to actually advise them well. Can you tell which is the case? Not really, but that certainly doesn't keep people from guessing. Even if the details aren't a factor, you can't deny that big schools get the "oh, wow" response, even from some admissions committee members.

Honestly though, I think the biggest factor is how much a student likes where they are going to school or how hard they are motivated to work by their school. If someone goes to Harvard, will they be more likely to study their tail off out of fear of failing a class than if they go to someplace less well-known? Maybe. Is a student likely to do better if they go to a school where they are actually happy? I would say so.

I'll have to agree with URHere (above) and disagree with the other two posters. If you plan on being an average student, then having a good institution behind you may help, but it's not a guarantee that you'll get in. Also, having an average institution behind you and outstanding scores and ECs is alot better than going to Harvard and being an average student. Either way, you need to do your best wherever you end up and you need to stand out no matter which school you are coming from.

The real reason people say "undergrad does not matter" is because where you get your graduate degree, really does matter, and after that, no one will ask you where you got your undergraduate degree from.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Well, more specifically, the last place you train before getting a job is what matters. For medicine, that'd be residency and/or fellowship. For most everything else, it'd be your grad or undergrad degree.

 

[flip26]

People say that Undergraduate institution does not matter, and I hear others say that it matters a little bit. What is the truth?

And WHY exactly does it not matter where you go if you are applying to medical school but it does if you are applying to law school?

I mean, I plan on going to my CC for a year and transferring to University of Kentucky but that is because I like it, it is a good school but not very prestigious. I may even get in after applying this fall hopefully. I am looking at a ton of schools out there but none of them are prestigious (many people have heard about them though) but they ARE good schools with good reputations.

And half the time when I look at peoples MDapps, they are all coming from top undergrads.

Med schools are more limited in number (125 or so allo) and they all teach the same stuff as required to be certified. Competition to get accepted anywhere is fierce, and the range of quality in students from the top ranked to the lowly unranked med school is not nearly as large as pre-meds presume.

There are tons of law schools - if you really want to go to law school and have really lousy grades, there is at least one that will accept you - so the "quality" of the students ranges fairly broadly, and the "quality" of the education you receive at law schools similarly ranges broadly (just look at the bar pass rates for different law schools and you will see a big spread as opposed to the Step score "pass" rates at med schools).

Finally, there is a real pecking order in terms of the connections you will need to land the juicy jobs. It is more a "who you know" than "what you know" when you are competing for prestigious law gigs, and the graduates of the top schools have a huge advantage here.

 

[deleted202457]

With medical school undergrad doesn't matter as much because every school has hard and easy classes. Plus, if your science classes were easy your MCAT will reflect that because you won't have covered a large amount of material that is tested. Is a 4.0 from a CC different than one from JHU? I'd say yes. But the difference between most schools will be minor. If you just keep your GPA up it doesn't matter where you went as long as the rest of your app is good.

And with law school, every one is business or political science majors, so they base a lot of acceptances off of the school because the LSAT is a joke. If you look at the stats, law students that major in physics and math have some of the highest acceptance rates. With law school it is simply that everyone does the same thing so the school must be used to measure performance. Med schools are able to use many other factors to judge their applicants abilities.