MD Why IVY league residency?

[bachow]

Hi. I am just curious, why med students work so hard to get into an ivy league residency program? I can understand if they want to get into a good fellowship position. But what else? If someone only wants to be an IM doctor, or maybe go to not so competitive fellowship.
I mean, I can understand when people go for economy or IT etc, if they get into ivy league like harvard there will be a huge differences. But for a doctor, I don't think the job offer or salary will be different. CMIIW.

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[funtertaining15]

Hi. I am just curious, why med students work so hard to get into an ivy league residency program? I can understand if they want to get into a good fellowship position. But what else? If someone only wants to be an IM doctor, or maybe go to not so competitive fellowship.
I mean, I can understand when people go for economy or IT etc, if they get into ivy league like harvard there will be a huge differences. But for a doctor, I don't think the job offer or salary will be different. CMIIW.

Good question. I personally don't care, as long as it's a good program and the staff, residents and faculty seem to enjoy where they work, rank all becomes subjective.
Some apply because they're good programs with good board passing rates, prestige, etc. But I image with prestige comes having to uphold certain expectations which may mean more work and demand overall... Just depends what floats your boat.

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[bachow]

Yeah I mean if later you work in an ivy league uni/hospital, their salary is also lower than community hospital. So unless you really have a big passionate on teaching/research, I don't see any differences at all. But I am still an intern, so please someone enlighten me.

 

[Goro]

Hi. I am just curious, why med students work so hard to get into an ivy league residency program? I can understand if they want to get into a good fellowship position. But what else? If someone only wants to be an IM doctor, or maybe go to not so competitive fellowship.
I mean, I can understand when people go for economy or IT etc, if they get into ivy league like harvard there will be a huge differences. But for a doctor, I don't think the job offer or salary will be different. CMIIW.

Status, and something about patient volume and interesting cases.

 

[bigloley]

Most of it is research based. At ivy league/top programs you have access to many more resources in order to pursue your research/career. Also have significant connections with the graduate and medical schools, very important for public health. Also, depending on the place the quality of training is usually better (though not always the case).

If your looking for a career in academic medicine then it's a great place to be. If you are looking to be a community doc then it doesn't matter as much, especially if you find a good training program elsewhere. The ivy league name always helps in the future when looking for jobs though, regardless of academic or community.

 

[bachow]

Most of it is research based. At ivy league/top programs you have access to many more resources in order to pursue your research/career. Also have significant connections with the graduate and medical schools, very important for public health. Also, depending on the place the quality of training is usually better (though not always the case).

If your looking for a career in academic medicine then it's a great place to be. If you are looking to be a community doc then it doesn't matter as much, especially if you find a good training program elsewhere. The ivy league name always helps in the future when looking for jobs though, regardless of academic or community.

Yeah I agree with your points. However I don't think it will really helps when looking for jobs, since job markets for physicians are everywhere in urban and rural areas. Maybe for several specialties like path, it will be useful.

 

[bigloley]

Trust me, places like to hire "Harvard trained doctors" and advertise that quite a bit. Helps with salary, signing bonus, benefits and type of job

 

[DokterMom]

All of the above, plus probably a heaping serving of a lifetime's worth of prestige-seeking...

 

[nimbus]

Trust me, places like to hire "Harvard trained doctors" and advertise that quite a bit. Helps with salary, signing bonus, benefits and type of job

Not really. We have many “Harvard trained doctors” but they’re indistinguishable from people who trained elsewhere. Any big program will do.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

"Ivy league residency" isn't actually a thing.

 

[IMreshopeful]

Trust me, places like to hire "Harvard trained doctors" and advertise that quite a bit. Helps with salary, signing bonus, benefits and type of job

No, I doubt it. If you have training at any decent academic medical residency then you’ll be well trained for a job at least in IM or it’s subspecialties. I have yet to meet a friend who had issues with salary, finding a good job, or a signing bonus coming from my upper mid tier academic medicine residency.

OP - echoing what others have said. Theres two situations IMO. 1. You want solid credentials and training and opportunities for research to pursue a fellowship of some kind, or 2. You want to be an academia physician who ultimately will be primarily research based. There are some programs with a good balance of the two (Hopkins, Columbia, Penn, etc) and some which are much more research heavy with less clinical time (MGH, BWH, UCSF). Depends on what you want.

If you go to a more mid tiered residency with good clinical training, good history of matching fellowship, and opportunity for research, you’ll be fine. Do what makes you happy.

 

[bachow]

No, I doubt it. If you have training at any decent academic medical residency then you’ll be well trained for a job at least in IM or it’s subspecialties. I have yet to meet a friend who had issues with salary, finding a good job, or a signing bonus coming from my upper mid tier academic medicine residency.

OP - echoing what others have said. Theres two situations IMO. 1. You want solid credentials and training and opportunities for research to pursue a fellowship of some kind, or 2. You want to be an academia physician who ultimately will be primarily research based. There are some programs with a good balance of the two (Hopkins, Columbia, Penn, etc) and some which are much more research heavy with less clinical time (MGH, BWH, UCSF). Depends on what you want.

If you go to a more mid tiered residency with good clinical training, good history of matching fellowship, and opportunity for research, you’ll be fine. Do what makes you happy.

I agree with you. My friend just graduated last year. He said salary mostly depends on the area, not the hospital. More rural = higher salary

 

[Lawpy]

"Ivy league residency" isn't actually a thing.

Yeah but we’re talking about SDN here. So Ivy League = Harvard, Hopkins, Penn, UCSF, Columbia, Stanford etc.

The problem is what’s Top 10 for one specialty isn’t necessarily Top 10 for another. But people on SDN think that anything affiliated with above is Top 10 by definition.

 

[NickNaylor]

The main benefit as I see it as access to significant resources dedicated to research. Whether this is relevant or important to you is another question. There is nothing that suggests to me that the quality of training at Ivy-affiliated institutions is markedly better than other programs. However, I fully believe that the ability to engage in research with "thought leaders" (bull**** term IMO, but whatever) at these institutions is significantly easier than at other programs. Again, though, this may or may not be important to you depending on your aspirations. If you know you want to go into academia and be a "thought leader," then it may be worth it. If you "just" want to be a doc practicing in the community, the benefits of training at a prestigious institution are likely to be minimal.

 

[Mass Effect]

You'll see a ton of zebras at the Ivies. Also, helps greatly for academic careers.

 

[KinasePro]

In ortho at least, most of the Ivies are widely regarded to be iffy programs. Harvard has a big name, but carries even bigger drawbacks in terms of technical education and autonomy. Yale, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown all have huge hang ups and big negatives. Would rather train at University of Tennessee, Case Western, Vanderbilt, JPS fort worth (FTR I am NOT a resident at these places) than any Ivy in ortho.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Trust me, places like to hire "Harvard trained doctors" and advertise that quite a bit. Helps with salary, signing bonus, benefits and type of job

Idk I worked in a big level 1 ER and we had ED docs who trained at WashU, Stanford. And also docs who went to the Caribbean and like half the ER docs were DOs. Nobody knew and nobody cared.

 

[medschoolzombie]

In ortho at least, most of the Ivies are widely regarded to be iffy programs. Harvard has a big name, but carries even bigger drawbacks in terms of technical education and autonomy. Yale, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown all have huge hang ups and big negatives. Would rather train at University of Tennessee, Case Western, Vanderbilt, JPS fort worth (FTR I am NOT a resident at these places) than any Ivy in ortho.

What’s so bad about them?

 

[Psai]

What’s so bad about them?

They ain't hss or hjd

 

[medschoolzombie]

They ain't hss or hjd

I feel like I’m not getting it. What’s so good about hss or hjd in comparison to the rest?

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Hi. I am just curious, why med students work so hard to get into an ivy league residency program? I can understand if they want to get into a good fellowship position. But what else? If someone only wants to be an IM doctor, or maybe go to not so competitive fellowship.
I mean, I can understand when people go for economy or IT etc, if they get into ivy league like harvard there will be a huge differences. But for a doctor, I don't think the job offer or salary will be different. CMIIW.

No, I doubt it. If you have training at any decent academic medical residency then you’ll be well trained for a job at least in IM or it’s subspecialties. I have yet to meet a friend who had issues with salary, finding a good job, or a signing bonus coming from my upper mid tier academic medicine residency.

OP - echoing what others have said. Theres two situations IMO. 1. You want solid credentials and training and opportunities for research to pursue a fellowship of some kind, or 2. You want to be an academia physician who ultimately will be primarily research based. There are some programs with a good balance of the two (Hopkins, Columbia, Penn, etc) and some which are much more research heavy with less clinical time (MGH, BWH, UCSF). Depends on what you want.

If you go to a more mid tiered residency with good clinical training, good history of matching fellowship, and opportunity for research, you’ll be fine. Do what makes you happy.

Agree with IMreshopeful. If you want to be an academic physician being pedigreed from a big name place is important.

If you just want to be a garden variety doc in the community it doesn’t really matter

 

[BarcaBest23]

Idk I worked in a big level 1 ER and we had ED docs who trained at WashU, Stanford. And also docs who went to the Caribbean and like half the ER docs were DOs. Nobody knew and nobody cared.

That's cuz all you need is half a brain and a working phone for consulting specialty services in order to be an ED doc. Hence they all look alike .......

 

[KinasePro]

What’s so bad about them?

They ain't hss or hjd

HSS and HJD have the same problems... TONS of fellows and lack of hands on resident training in exchange for papers and access to "big names." In the current era, "big names" are far less valuable than good operative experience. In the 90's and early 00's, operative training was fairly solid across the board, and the big names were an added benefit. But things have changed. It's hard to get good surgical training now in the current health care environment, so being triple scrubbed behind 2 fellows isn't going to be worth the pain.

I'm training at an operative-heavy residency, and got a fancy "elite" fellowship based on that reputation. So in my mind, I'll be entering fellowship next year and ultimately practice, with more reps under my belt and more time in the drivers seat. Not trying to knock the ivies and ivy-like programs, but I wasn't interested in bolstering my CV at the detriment of technical skills. An ivy league name isn't going to save your ass when you're knee deep in difficult cases as a junior attending. Ultimately you write your own ticket, and if you're an excellent surgeon coming out the gate, it is comparatively easier to build a busy practice than to be a tentative and nervous albeit well-published book worm. I've operated with recent grads from glossy residencies, and I'm glad I didn't fall into that trap. But that's my bias as a blue collar guy, other people may feel differently.

 

[mvenus929]

Idk I worked in a big level 1 ER and we had ED docs who trained at WashU, Stanford. And also docs who went to the Caribbean and like half the ER docs were DOs. Nobody knew and nobody cared.

EM is another field where it's better to not be at a 'big name', I think, because you get more exposure in lesser known, community hospitals (think of the traumas that come into inner city programs).

So really, the big name programs are only good for IM. Peds has its own ranking, and some are great for residency and some you should avoid until fellowship. FM is better in the unopposed programs, which tend to be the opposite of big name hospitals.

 

[atomi]

HSS and HJD have the same problems... TONS of fellows and lack of hands on resident training in exchange for papers and access to "big names." In the current era, "big names" are far less valuable than good operative experience. In the 90's and early 00's, operative training was fairly solid across the board, and the big names were an added benefit. But things have changed. It's hard to get good surgical training now in the current health care environment, so being triple scrubbed behind 2 fellows isn't going to be worth the pain.

I'm training at an operative-heavy residency, and got a fancy "elite" fellowship based on that reputation. So in my mind, I'll be entering fellowship next year and ultimately practice, with more reps under my belt and more time in the drivers seat. Not trying to knock the ivies and ivy-like programs, but I wasn't interested in bolstering my CV at the detriment of technical skills. An ivy league name isn't going to save your ass when you're knee deep in difficult cases as a junior attending. Ultimately you write your own ticket, and if you're an excellent surgeon coming out the gate, it is comparatively easier to build a busy practice than to be a tentative and nervous albeit well-published book worm. I've operated with recent grads from glossy residencies, and I'm glad I didn't fall into that trap. But that's my bias as a blue collar guy, other people may feel differently.

2nd this. Some of the biggest most famous named programs have horrendous gen surg residencies that basically just use you as scut monkeys covering the floor for the first 2-3 years, force you to do two years of research then you finally get into the OR as a PGY-5 or 6. So you basically wasted 4-5 years to try and learn everything your last 2-3 years. Or go to a good community program, be in the OR the whole time, and be done in 5.

 

[alprazoslam]

Can’t wait to enjoy my pic of mid tier IM not by the coast in medium sized towns that most people don’t like.


Would rather be somewhere that values residents than an Ivy League that can beat you down just bc everybody wants there
(I’m sure not all are like that)

 

[Chibucks15]

Can’t wait to enjoy my pic of mid tier IM not by the coast in medium sized towns that most people don’t like.


Would rather be somewhere that values residents than an Ivy League that can beat you down just bc everybody wants there
(I’m sure not all are like that)

shhhh don't spread the word that the Midwest exists

 

[Blunt Dissection]

Career goals basically. There are plenty of excellent community programs that will train great docs, but not many community programs can say they have the resources to create physician scientists. While there is indeed a lot of research out there that is poorly done, there will always be the few projects that influence the field of medicine and they almost always come from the Ivy League institutions.

Neither choice of program is better than the other, but how much someone gets out of one or the other depends on what they want out of their career.

 

[alprazoslam]

shhhh don't spread the word that the Midwest exists

It doesn’t besides flint Michigan

 

[nimbus]

Career goals basically. There are plenty of excellent community programs that will train great docs, but not many community programs can say they have the resources to create physician scientists. While there is indeed a lot of research out there that is poorly done, there will always be the few projects that influence the field of medicine and they almost always come from the Ivy League institutions.

Neither choice of program is better than the other, but how much someone gets out of one or the other depends on what they want out of their career.

Like these...

Harvard Calls for Retraction of Dozens of Studies by Noted Cardiac Researcher

 

[Blunt Dissection]

Like these...

Harvard Calls for Retraction of Dozens of Studies by Noted Cardiac Researcher

Stuff like this is partially the fault of human nature and partially the fault of how research funds are granted. It’s the equivalent of fraud on Wall Street and in my opinion, should be treated as such for the impact it has on our society as a whole.